To

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete;

The hand is getting better and prognosis is full recovery in 6 weeks

or less.

The twelve preliminary needles in my lung tumor were negative to

any kind of malignancy including TB and that's a biggie. Doc

Guest cancelled my appt for the 19th and said she would notify me

when all long term(abt a month) cltures were done, unless a short

term culture showed something dangerous. Odds against any

cancer far into the bllions or non existent, TB still possible in a

long term culture, but unlikely. Tumor now appears to be just a

benign fatty tumor and is effecting my breathing capacity by 3% or

less. Now that there's no cancer issue they can remove it

Orthoscopically, but doc recomends doing zero unless it begins

rapid growth

More good news. I now have a white tom just under two who was a

farm cat. I named him Lover Boy, because he cannot get enough

attention. Uncle got me two cats from the farm, both

white, but one 7 months and the other nearly two years. Rose has

the young one plus little Bit. My big Lover Boy was bullying Little

Bit and I can't watch 24/7 Lover Boy is about 11 pounds and Little

Bit about 5. Rose named the little one " Puddy Tat " after the

cartoon character and he and little bit are within a few ounces of

the same size. They're doing well. I may have all three before too

awfully long. (See my post to Chaz Bufe about the checks. I've

protected Rose far too long, she's in the box and I'm going to slam

the lid. It's time she learned, what goes around comes around.

You steal from folks they may quit making excuses for you

eventually. This is NOT the first time she's pulled some slieght of

hand with our finances, checkbook or my signature. I even took

one rap for her and pled it down to a serious misdemeanor and paid

a fine plus the forged check and court costs.

You're right though, I did and do love her, but I can no longer

tolerate her conduct. I hope that makes sense, because it doesn't

to me.

Your Friend,

[Guest guest]

Hi

Very pleased to hear the biopsy news, but still wincing for you about

the neck and hand. Very good of you to type so much when you only have

use of your left. Also pleased about the new cats. It's ironic that you

have covered for Rose before now, when the stereotype, which she

probably used with the bank manager, is the wife always covering for

the drinking husband.

I can understand your bitterness, but its quite reasonable to let your

wife face the music here - its society's justice she will face.

Keep getting better my friend,

" gary d hall " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=11855

> Hi Pete;

>

> The hand is getting better and prognosis is full recovery in 6 weeks

> or less.

>

> The twelve preliminary needles in my lung tumor were negative to

> any kind of malignancy including TB and that's a biggie. Doc

> Guest cancelled my appt for the 19th and said she would notify me

> when all long term(abt a month) cltures were done, unless a short

> term culture showed something dangerous. Odds against any

> cancer far into the bllions or non existent, TB still possible in a

> long term culture, but unlikely. Tumor now appears to be just a

> benign fatty tumor and is effecting my breathing capacity by 3% or

> less. Now that there's no cancer issue they can remove it

> Orthoscopically, but doc recomends doing zero unless it begins

> rapid growth

>

> More good news. I now have a white tom just under two who was a

> farm cat. I named him Lover Boy, because he cannot get enough

> attention. Uncle got me two cats from the farm, both

> white, but one 7 months and the other nearly two years. Rose has

> the young one plus little Bit. My big Lover Boy was bullying Little

> Bit and I can't watch 24/7 Lover Boy is about 11 pounds and Little

> Bit about 5. Rose named the little one " Puddy Tat " after the

> cartoon character and he and little bit are within a few ounces of

> the same size. They're doing well. I may have all three before too

> awfully long. (See my post to Chaz Bufe about the checks. I've

> protected Rose far too long, she's in the box and I'm going to slam

> the lid. It's time she learned, what goes around comes around.

> You steal from folks they may quit making excuses for you

> eventually. This is NOT the first time she's pulled some slieght of

> hand with our finances, checkbook or my signature. I even took

> one rap for her and pled it down to a serious misdemeanor and paid

> a fine plus the forged check and court costs.

>

> You're right though, I did and do love her, but I can no longer

> tolerate her conduct. I hope that makes sense, because it doesn't

> to me.

>

> Your Friend,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for the reply. It helps to hear that you're feeling

great.

I have found a SMART meeting in my area (Cleveland) that I'm

really going to try to get to next Tues. night.

For some reason, I just want to tell my sponsor that I've

chosen to take another path. So attending this meeting will

kind of be a good-bye AA sort of thing for me. (does that

make any sense?)

How long were you in AA? How have you dealt with the " brain-

washing " in this last month?

Please keep writing...because you are " new " to leaving them,

and hopefully, I am right behind you! It would be helpful

to know where you're at with this.

I almost feel like I need to have a drink to break their bond.

But then I will be doing just what they predicted.

Thanks

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: My Shrink Says... -Reply

>Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:27:39 -0500

>

>

>couldn't have said it better myself Sue. That was pretty

>much my experience too.

>

>Well, I've been out of AA " officially " for 3 weeks today.

>Haven't been to a meeting in 4. Can't remember the last time

>I felt so good.

>

>-

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>anywhere. Try @backup Free for 30 days. Click here for a chance to win a

>digital camera.

>http://click./1/337/1/_/4324/_/948482833/

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>-- Easily schedule meetings and events using the group calendar!

>-- /cal?listname=12-step-free & m=1

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete;

Things are about as well as could be expected and then some. My

storm door handle is one that you grasp the rigid handle and press

the button with your thumb. I was able to trip the latch right

handed today for the first time, allbeit with a steel wrist brace.

Also my right arm is beginning to ache when I use it much

meaning the nerves are coming back to life. This ache is good

news, though it doesn't always seem so. 8^)

Jan 21, 3:36 pm local

Lover Boy, my new white tom has some infections and gets his

first trip to the vet tomorrow morning. I'm sure the trip won't make

him happy but the results should. He's showing signs of Urinary

infection and also sinusitus. I drove downtown yesterday but my

driving sucks so Rose will drive my car for me. This neck thing has

my orientation out of whack and when I turn my head I lose

space/time orientation. At 25 MPH in the city I'm ok, but I know I'd

be all over the road at 55. I got arrested the other night for just that

while trying to get to the hospital. The cop called an ambulance to

take me and drove my car to the hospital and got the keys to me.

No summons, but he took my driving lisence because it was 11

months expired. It's 22 miles to the hospital and I had made it 19

before getting spotted. He asked if I'd been drinking, I said no and

he replied I believe you and never even tested me. Just before he

stopped me on the fourlane highway, I had realized I was over the

center line and when I corrected I went clear off the road onto the

shoulder. Lucky as hell I never hit anyone and luckier still to have

a copper like him in that squad car. Guess he figured I had enough

trouble without a handfull of court summonses, which he could

have issued.

Sometimes sitting here alone, sick, feeling sorry for myself, angry

as hell and I start thinking about how many folks like him I've ran

into and I get to thinking that I'm a pretty lucky fellow. I will get

well, I will get through this and a new life awaits.

I've even been making some calls to see if at this late date I can

get back into the Law and let someone else repair electronics..

Sitting here preparing my criminal case, I realized how much I love

it! That County Atty is not going to know what hit him and I'm

going to walk at the preliminary hearing. First off he'll be quite

surprised when I ask for a prelim as most are waived, and when I

serve him with my subpoena list he's gonna' shit. These County

Atty's in small counties are part time and have their own practice,

the County Atty job is just a prestige thing, they are NOT qualified

prosecuters and most folks plead guilty. He will likely try to get

Dick from The State Atty Generals Office. Dick and I

have went to the wall 8 times and I'm, 8-0 with him. I won em all,

so it'll be like old times. Of course he'll be sharper than he was 20

years ago and I'm not, but he doesn't know that. Besides I've got

till at least the middle of February to prepare. Arraignment will be

the third or thereabouts and prelims are usually put off for two

weeks. Since I have lived in the area many years I believe I'll be

released without bail, especially with my medical condition. If they

remand me to custody, The County has to pay for all my meds etc

and it's not a wealthy county.

It'll be a fight, I'll still pay the checks since I wrote them, but may

be able to force Rose to pay at least half, which would be a big

help right now. After all she took my disability check, plus some

profits from Pachyderm, plus her own Disability check. She ought

to be able to come up with half out of that!

The divorce will not be as simple. I've only done a dozen of them

and all were pretty set piece affairs. So that will call for some

study. Have no fear, I WILL have a lawyer for advice and to

question folks I might get emotional about, like Rose. Operating

this way is a constitutional right in The US. In 1974 The Supreme

Court decided that a man had the absolute right to run his own

defense and the state had the duty to provide a lawyer. I'll ask for

Professor Bartells from The University of Iowa, since I've worked

with him before. I won't get the prof, but will get a couple or three

students which is fine with me. His students are always good,

because he weeds em out fast. Of Course my first Request will be

Alfredo Parish, a black guy who is The F. Lee of Iowa, then

come down to the prof. Maggi Moss, Alfredo's partner is the best

divorce lawyer, but everything I own wouldn't cover her fee.

Unfortunately my old boss Don Nickerson is a Deputy US Atty. He

was never an excellent criminal lawyer anyway and works

Consumer Fraud. The reason he hired me was that I beat him

when all the law was on his side, but good sense was on mine and

the court skirted the law. It was a complicated deal that involved

an Iowa Criminal conviction and The Bureau of Immigration and The

Iowa Parole Board. More negotiation and persuasion than a knock

down court battle. Pagonis Romeros the guy I got sent home

was from Chile and spoke no English, I had no Spanish. He gave

me the only thing he owned of value to him. A Sterling Silver Cross

Pen. I was going to refuse when my interpreter said that would be

an insult.

Funny how when I'm in a bind my mind wanders to better days.

Here I am, broke, giving The Vet tomorrow a post dated check to

take care of my cat and talking of cases won 20 years ago. Only

similarity is I was full of medical problems then too. I was in a

body cast when I argued Romeros. I'm so used to medical

problems I would be totally lost if I got healthy everywhere at the

same time. 8^)

The toughest part is having my mind wander on to Rose and think

WHY? She doesn't know, because I've asked her several times

and gotten different answers each time and no two that seem to

work together. I've decided finally that she did it because she

could. That's the only one that makes sense of things.

The reason I've always hated divorce cases is there's no winner,

one ends up Minus Three, the other Minus six so we call the Minus

three the winner, Yucck. It Sucks. The Minus three is happy for

about 5 days and then reality sets in, all the ties are broken. All

the friends feel they have to take sides, so we need new friends etc.

Got to see the doc about my legs again. I have to elevate the hell

out of them to get the swelling down. I'm on two different

diueretics, but the elevation is what does the trick. He told me to

come in if they got red and hot to the touch. They've been that way

a week and I guess it ain't goin away by itself. I'll try to slip in and

see him on my next Physical Therapy session next Monday.

You wouldn't know it from all my carping and bitching, but things

are progressing fairly well, I just get in a hurry.

Well, got to get down in the root cellar and see if I can find one of

my pet carriers and get it washed up for tomorrow morning.

Oh as to Rose and The Bank VP. She played us both like a violin.

She got him to not notify me she'd taken all the money in fear of

her life, then came here and told me her sis and another friend

helped her get a place. But that move blew her credibility in two

places, not smart. I don't believe a thing she says till I see it now.

Now nothing I want leaves this house without a court order except

her clothes. I was giving her a 25 inch TV and a Microwave oven I

have in storage. Actually I was taking the one in storage and giving

her the new one here. Now she gets em with a court order and

that will be post divorce, by which time I may have sold them and

other stuff to pay those checks. It's a gamble on my part, but I

think I can pull it off. I've lost every battle with her so far, but as we

country boys say " Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a

while. " 8^)

Till later,

Your Friend,

[Guest guest]

Amy, I would get a copy of " Releasing the Bonds... Empowering People to

Think for Themselves " by Hassan. It's his new book, and was

written exactly for family/friends/loved ones of people in mind control

groups. It's full of insight. I would not let him see this book though,

it would be just for you to read and learn from privately.

Apple

> ,

> He has no idea what he is involved in. He attends

meetings

> at least six nights a week. It's like he can't get through anything

on his

> own. To me, he seems more miserable now then he did before aa. I can

not

> speak negatively of AA to him. He just started talking to me again.

He went

> from being dependent to alcohol, to being dependent on aa. I don't

think he

> is coming out ahead.I wish I knew what was right. I feel helpless.

> Thanks for your reply. Amy

[Guest guest]

Amy,

Apple's advice about educating yourself on what is really going on here is

sound. When I was going to six meetings a week, I was going because I was

really frightened (about getting drunk). What I remember about being

frightened was how vulnerable a time that was for me. Hence, I was

especially vulnerable to the AA party line and followed their absurd advice

even against my better judgment. At the time what they were asking me to do

sounded pro-active. However, when one is expected to not stray from the AA

party line, meaning: not ask for a second opinion, purge everything about

yourself and remake yourself in the AA image, view rules of behavior only

from the context of the Big Book (and the group as a whole) and accept

constant intervention in every aspect of one's life---I would say we are now

officially a member of a cult!

Now to be fair, some people function just fine in the context of the AA

cult. They do so by either giving in and accepting the AA cultist

experience and making it their own reality, or, by keeping their distance

from the groups and shutting out the BS. But, and I really believe this,

autonomy--a sense of the singular self, keeps any thinking person in a state

of confusion when he or she really comes to understand the terms of the

program (AA) he or she is being asked to be a part of. So, if your man is

having confusion right now it may actually be a good sign. I know that when

I went to AA I bought off on some of the threats they use to keep members

from leaving like, " you are going to die if you go. " It took some time for

me to begin to question the validity of these threats. Then I started to

meet people who were function very well without the influence of AA in their

lives.

This might sound silly, and it may not even be the right advice for you,

but, have you thought of finding an uninvolved third party (a counselor

perhaps) who would be willing to facilitate you and he in exploring your

concerns? When I began couples counseling at the urging of my AA partner

(ironic) was when I began to question what was really going on in my

relationship with him and with AA. Just saying the words out loud to

another person (the therapist was actually pro AA, but I kept reminding her

that she worked for me, eventually she got the message) gave me the

opportunity to begin to organize my thoughts on the subject and helped me

put words to what I was so distressed about (actually a very empowering

experience). I see that happening for you here--giving this situation the

what is really going on here test.

Take care,

llawrence@...

Re: 12 stepper insanity

> > >

> > >

> > > > Dear guadman & apple, I just checked out the postings at the forum

you

> > > > mentioned and at the risk of sounding like a drunken frat boy, I

> LOOOVE

> > > YOU

> > > > GUYS!!!

> > > >

> > > > Thank you for being such powerful voices of reason there. I don't

yet

> > > have

> > > > the words to debate with steppers, but I'm learning from all of you

> here

> > > and

> > > > I appreciate the apprenticeship.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >If anyone is interested in taking a peek, I have been having an

> ongoing

> > > > >fight for " truth, justice and the american way " with a bunch of

> AA'ers

> > > > >at:

> > > > >

> > > > >The Neurology Webforums at Massachustees General Hospital

> > > >

> >http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro & B

> > > > >ypassCookie=true

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >Specifc Neurological Conditions:Alcoholism

> > > > >Topic: " Advice to 'Loners' "

> > > > >http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/ubb/Forum117/HTML/000024.html

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > ______________________________________________________

> > > >

> > >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > > Planning a party? iParty.com is your complete source for party

> planning

> > > and

> > > > supplies, with everything you need to throw the perfect party!

> > > > http://click./1/1635/1/_/4324/_/952619141/

> > > >

> > > > -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> > > > -- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:

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> >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

[Guest guest]

Amy,

I am assuming he isn't drinking, which is great.

Since he is so involved with AA, why not take the time to take care of

you?

Therapy, alanon (watch out..can be real sick in there), hobbies,

sports, etc..

One thing i have seen, when i talk with women who are involved with

alcoholic men and ask " so how ya doing? " , they always begin talking

about whats going on with their husband...never with themselves. It's

like they are addicted to them.

You husband may feel, at least partly legitimately, that you are

attempting to interfere with something that is helping keep him from

drinking.

If you live a decent life, taking care of what you really need to, he

will likely see it eventually. Even if he never did, it will still be

of benefit to you as an individual.

Just as many of our experiences here with AA have great legitimacy, so

does the fact that many many people who get sober, end up back in their

addiction as a direct result of pressure and interference by their

significant other..many times because of the spouses feelings of

abandonment (which isnt valid..being with an addicted spouse is

abandonment)..and many times because of revenge.

It's something to think about.

guadman

" amy hunt " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13207

> ,

> He has no idea what he is involved in. He attends

meetings

> at least six nights a week. It's like he can't get through anything

on his

> own. To me, he seems more miserable now then he did before aa. I can

not

> speak negatively of AA to him. He just started talking to me again.

He went

> from being dependent to alcohol, to being dependent on aa. I don't

think he

> is coming out ahead.I wish I knew what was right. I feel helpless.

> Thanks for your reply. Amy

> Re: 12 stepper insanity

> > >

> > >

> > > > Dear guadman & apple, I just checked out the postings at the

forum you

> > > > mentioned and at the risk of sounding like a drunken frat boy, I

> LOOOVE

> > > YOU

> > > > GUYS!!!

> > > >

> > > > Thank you for being such powerful voices of reason there. I

don't yet

> > > have

> > > > the words to debate with steppers, but I'm learning from all of

you

> here

> > > and

> > > > I appreciate the apprenticeship.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >If anyone is interested in taking a peek, I have been having an

> ongoing

> > > > >fight for " truth, justice and the american way " with a bunch of

> AA'ers

> > > > >at:

> > > > >

> > > > >The Neurology Webforums at Massachustees General Hospital

> > > >

> >http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intr

o & B

> > > > >ypassCookie=true

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >Specifc Neurological Conditions:Alcoholism

> > > > >Topic: " Advice to 'Loners' "

> > > > >http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/ubb/Forum117/HTML/000024.h

tml

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > ______________________________________________________

> > > >

> > >

> > -------------------------------------------------------------------

-----

> > > > Planning a party? iParty.com is your complete source for party

> planning

> > > and

> > > > supplies, with everything you need to throw the perfect party!

> > > > http://click./1/1635/1/_/4324/_/952619141/

> > > >

> > > > -- Check out your group's private Chat room

> > > > -- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------

-------

> > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the

net.

> > > Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install

now:

> > > http://click./1/2345/1/_/4324/_/952814518/

> > >

> > > -- Create a poll/survey for your group!

> > > -- /vote?listname=12-step-free & m=1

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Just wondered how you are dealing with reactions from

people when you take a drink now and then.

Seems that in my life, people around me show a great concern

that I find unnecessary. But it would be very difficult to

explain this without coming off like I am deeply defending

my drinking...thus appearing to drink alcoholically.

(which I am not)

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeeGroups

>Subject: Re: Anti/Pro

>Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 05:26:30 -0800

>

>

>Been there done that and yes, they do think I'm drinking alcoholically.

> I think it very sad to see people I used to consider my friends making

>a judgment as absolute as that. And I used to be one of them. But it

>is true; how they think.

>

>Thanks for your response and support.

>

>

>

> " janice m. young " wrote:

>original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13557

> > > So as far as that goes, if I drink and DON'T get drunk, I'm still

> > sober?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Yes, I believe so and probably most people in the world do too. AA

> > defines sobriety as walkin' talkin' 12 steps, slogans and meetings

> > meetings meetings. Anything else is a dry drunk. Also if you have

>ever

> > sat in a meeting and said 'hi I'm xxxx, I'm an alcoholic " and you stop

> > going to meetings and after a period of time you find you can have a

> > drink now and then without reverting to your old habits, to AA, you're

> > drinking again and it is assumed that you are drinking alcoholically.

>

> >

> > jan

> >

>

>

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>-- /ChatPage?listName=12-step-free & m=1

>

______________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Sue, my first reaction is hurt. I, too, find it difficult to put it

into words to explain to an AAer what is going on with me. I don't

know if it's just my nature to be defensive about it, but I usually

just don't mention that I'm drinking. I just tell them I don't go to

AA meetings any more. Their reaction is based solely on *assumption*

that I'm drinking AND drinking alcoholically! I couldn't and wouldn't

tell an AAer that I am drinking socially because (and you are so right)

it would look like I am being defensive. I just won't waste my breath.

I used to be a Jehovah's Witness (1970s) and they work the same-!

My kids are actually relieved that I have a drink once in a while,

now-they are older (26, 25 and 21-then I have an 11-yr. old) and as I

have said before, I am less stringent with myself-and them as well!

" sue styd " wrote:

original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13686

> Hi ,

>

> Just wondered how you are dealing with reactions from

> people when you take a drink now and then.

> Seems that in my life, people around me show a great concern

> that I find unnecessary. But it would be very difficult to

> explain this without coming off like I am deeply defending

> my drinking...thus appearing to drink alcoholically.

> (which I am not)

>

> Sue

>

>

>

>

> >

> >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

> >To: 12-step-freeeGroups

> >Subject: Re: Anti/Pro

> >Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2000 05:26:30 -0800

> >

> >

> >Been there done that and yes, they do think I'm drinking

alcoholically.

> > I think it very sad to see people I used to consider my friends

making

> >a judgment as absolute as that. And I used to be one of them. But

it

> >is true; how they think.

> >

> >Thanks for your response and support.

> >

> >

> >

> > " janice m. young " wrote:

> >original article:/group/12-step-free/?start=13

557

> > > > So as far as that goes, if I drink and DON'T get drunk, I'm

still

> > > sober?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Yes, I believe so and probably most people in the world do too.

AA

> > > defines sobriety as walkin' talkin' 12 steps, slogans and meetings

> > > meetings meetings. Anything else is a dry drunk. Also if you have

> >ever

> > > sat in a meeting and said 'hi I'm xxxx, I'm an alcoholic " and you

stop

> > > going to meetings and after a period of time you find you can

have a

> > > drink now and then without reverting to your old habits, to AA,

you're

> > > drinking again and it is assumed that you are drinking

alcoholically.

> >

> > >

> > > jan

> > >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I must have missed your letter. But you seem to be feeling the same way as I

did. " I am at fault " and docs don't believe you when you say that your

child is sick.

If you need to talk you can e-mail me privatly.drew@... I am on the

computer most days as long as it does not crash on me again.

Hang in there.

Mel: mother of 5 beautiful girls ( Amber, Cody, Chloe, Tara and Britney) and

our angel in Heaven Drew

Blue Green Algae?

> Hi!

> Has anyone heard/tried blue-green algae? My husband is looking into

> homepathic ways to treat 's weight problem, but I am not so

> sure. He says it is really high in protein and has other benefits,

> but I don't want to go through the fuss of giving it to him if it is

> not going to help or hurt him-how good can algae taste? UGH

> has been on Cortef for a year now for adrenal insufficiency but

> has only gained a whopping two or three pounds, so that isn't

> working. His eating has improved, but he just can't seem to put on

> the pounds. so, if anyone has given this a try or knows a reason why

> it would be a bad idea, please let me know!

> THANKS!

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Find long lost high school friends:

> http://click./1/4056/2/_/368657/_/959354334/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Brought to you by www.imdn.org - an on-line support group for those

affected by mitochondrial disease.

>

>

________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

and all,

This is Sally, still the new kid on the block asking lots of questions

preop.

What kind if protein powder do you or others use? Where do you buy it-

regular pharmacies? For you unfortunately, mixing it with milk did not work,

so what are you mixing it with now? Sally

Langlais L NPRI wrote:

> ,

>

> In the beginning I was falling asleep shortly after I woke up in the

> beginning too, turns out I was dumping from mixing my protein powder with

> milk! Surgery made me lactose intolerant. Took a little while to figure

> out...

>

> b.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

You are so helpful. I will talk to my family doctor and see what she

suggests. The ob/gyn at M/S hospital are supposed to be very good. I have

a friend who is an ob/gyn Resident down at U of T so maybe I will pick her

brain and see if she knows or can find out who would be the best - I expect

she would give me your doctors - she has probably studied with them.

I will also take your advice not to mention I may not get pregnant. Imagine

that they would think it wouldn't be worth it to them just to restore my

uterus if I wasn't going to use it for conception!!! HHMMMMM, I bet they

wouldn't say that to a man about their precious parts. Anyway, I shouldn't

get bitter....

Thanks again, and I will make sure to delete the message - noticed that I

was the only one that that was happening to.

Have a great weekend.

(TO)

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I am still seeing Dr. Andreyko, my RE until my 8 wk ultrasound. She

said that she wasn't ready to send me to the perinatologist. She is

in shock that we got pregnant so quickly (we just got cleared after

my surgery on September 7th.

I will be going to a UC perinatologist down in Sacramento as

well, Dr. Fields (who works with Dr. Gilbert) in the UC

Perinatology Group.

I didn't bleed that heavily except for one night. The rest of the

time it was only noticable when I went to the bathroom. WAsn't even

enough to use a pad. I have completely stopped bleeding now.

I think that I am overly cautious having lost 2 babies at 22 weeks.

I know this is just the beginning for us and that I most likely will

be in bed for at least the last 4 months of my pregnancy. I have to

get a cerclage at 13 weeks and will be in bed for a bit then to.

I am trying to monitor how I feel and I do take it easy when

necessary, following the same philosophy that you seem to. However,

I have not had as much bleeding as you.

So so glad to hear that I am not the only person this has happened

to. I appreciate your response and direction.

Good luck with the rest of your pregnancy!!!!!!

Suzanne

> Hi Suzanne,

> I am happy to hear your ultrasound went well. This is a very good

sign so far. Your experience sounds very similar to mine. Who is

your OB? I had a bad experiecne with my OB in Roseville (Dr. Dina

Canavero) while I had my hemorrhaging episodes and I finally fired

her.

>

> First of all, yes, your uterus may be having problems embedding and

a small piece of it may have pulled away due to scar tissue, thin

endometrial lining, or an area of rough lining etc....the same thing

happened to me. I bled at 8 weeks, 9.5 weeks, 10.5 weeks and 11.5

weeks. I finally stopped listening to my OB and stayed on bedrest

and I stopped bleeding. She kept telling me, let the bleeding be

your guide and after a few days get off of bedrest try to increase

your activity level a little bit at a time. Then if you bleed, you

did too much. Well at 11.5 weeks I spent 18 hours of bleeding

profusely with 9 hours of contractions and scared out of my mind

listening to her " let the bleeding be your giude advice. " I didn't

know if I would bleed to death or lose the baby...I was so scared.

When I talked to my OB that evening when it started she said don't go

into ER unless you bleed 3-4 soaked pads an hour for 4 hours

consecutively. Well, I had periods of heavy bleeding then slow

bleeding then heavy again. I lost about a pint of blood. But I

never went into the hospital and I felt like I was bothering her so I

stopped calling. The next morning she never even called to see how

I was doing. After that nightmare I completely changed my life and

stayed in bed for the next 8 weeks, I only got up to shower and go to

the bathroom and to eat meals in the latter 4 weeks. And guess

what? No more bleeding. Now I am on low activity around the house

because I have placenta previa. I can do most things except lifting,

excercise, jar my belly, etc.

>

> Suzanne, if you are still bleeding stay in bed. If you continue to

do well with good ultrasounds until 12 weeks they can give you a

clean bill of health. I switched to a perinatologist group in

Sacramento and they have been much much better. They actually return

my phone calls and take the time to answer my questions. What a

surprise! My perinatogist said that if your fetus does well and

continues to grow throughout the first trimester that 1st trimester

bleeding has no impact on the outcome and over health of the baby.

My baby has continued to grow throughout these bleeding episodes and

she is now 22.5 weeks and everything seems to be a okay. So, you

still have lots of hope, but I must say that I believe that staying

in bed is what finally did it for me . It was like everytime I tried

to get active again (driving, sitting up, bending over to pick up

light toys and clothes is all I did) I would bleed again. Then when

I stayed low, it had a chance to heal. Once you get a few weeks

between you and the last bleed you can start getting more active over

a very slow period of time . I don't think these OBs are very well

versed in post Ashermans uteruses. But, maybe they are and I was

just a special case who knows.

>

> Anyway, please keep us posted. You may want to place the computer

by your bed, this is what i did and it is what finally got me to stay

in bed! This plus the fact that I had full time care for my 2 year

old.

>

> Are you still bleeding? Let me know how you are doing...belive

me.....I know what you are going through! But, time will pass and

soon you will feel that baby kicking and it will be worth it. Take

care,

>

[Guest guest]

What is the difference between a Perinatologist vs RE in regards to

quality of care and their theoritical approach for Asherman's

patients?

[Guest guest]

A perinatologist is a high risk OB and they only take care of high risk pregnancies. They don't treat Ashermans, although they know a lot about it and go a long way to prevent it when they deliver babies etc. Perinatologists are more trained than OB's since they have had additional training in the area of high risk pregnancies.

An RE is a reproductive endocrinologist. They are OB/GYNs who also had further training, but mainly in the area of fertility. These docs are typically found in in-vitro clinics around the world. They are the ones you go to when you can't get pregnant and they diagnose and treat lots of Ashermans because these women show up with no periods and no explanation. RE's are usually pretty good at treating AS but the best docs, the ones on our A list, are the GYN's who have specifically narrowed their practices to the area of hysteroscopic and laparoscopic surgeries. These docs do so many surgeries and get referrals of the bad Asherman cases that they have the most skill and experience in Ashermans. Unfortunately there is no specialty for Ashermans doctors, so you can't just look them up in a phone book. That is why to find the best Ashermans doctors we have had to go by word of mouth from other docs. It all started from Dr. Indman, who is a GYN and a fine hysteroscopic surgeon, and he gave us the names of Valle, March and a few others and then the list grew from there. These docs all know each other and have seen each other do surgeries. They are truly the best. I hope this helps.

Re: To

What is the difference between a Perinatologist vs RE in regards to quality of care and their theoritical approach for Asherman's patients?

[Guest guest]

Hi Suzanne,

Ahh, now I understand. I was with my RE still when I had my first bleed too. At that point I had to go to an OB quickly because my RE was so far away from me.

Wow, do you ever have a lawsuit....your story makes me so angry I want to scream. Can I be on your jury? I can't imagine losing a baby (not to mention 2) so late in pregnancy and so many of the brave women in this group have. Good for you that you are so strong and that you are moving forward. Also it's great that you are taking the patient care into your hands. if I were you, I'd stay in bed the whole time!

You are so fortunate that you got pregnant so quickly, especially after the nightmare delivery you had. Did you use any fertility drugs with your RE? Anyway, you are lucky....but you are due for some luck at this point right? This baby is a special baby and you take good care as it sounds you are. Have you told Dr. Olive that you are pregnant yet? I am sure he will be pleased. Okay, I hope that blood goes away for the next 33 weeks and that things go easy from here. Take care,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I am from Brisbane Australia and I was just wondering what part of Australia you are from?

We may be able to discuss doctors etc. I believe there is one in Sydney that I am going to contact. I will keep you informed when I have looked him up.

Milinda

-----Original Message-----From: Sent: Friday, 2 November 2001 1:23To: Ashermans Subject: I have just joined

Hello fellow Asherman sufferers.

I have just joined your group after looking up some information on this disease i have been diagnosed with after i suffered a misscarriage at the beginning of this year. i was saddened and pleased to find so many others here feeling the same way as i do. it will be really nice to talk to people about their condition and to find out more about Ashermans. I hope i can talk to someone with a success story after all as i am feeling a bit down about the whole thing.

I am a 34yo Australian, mother of one little boy who just turned 4 and i am desperately trying for a brother or sister for him (he asks me every day if i have a baby in my tummy yet?) so it means alot to all of us to get pregnant.

looking forward to chatting soon.

julie davies.

[Guest guest]

Hey, .

Glad to hear that you're on the other side and eating well, if slowly.

I just had to laugh when I read about your " missing " wedding pictures.

We never got our wedding photos, either. Partly cause I hated our

bridesmaids' dresses (ugh, don't remind me!) and partly because I just

have never liked any of the photos taken of me (except one, where I'm

17, dolled up for the prom, and about a hundred feet from the camera)

Hope every day is a big improvement for you!

Eileen :-)

> Things I missed out on presurgery are:

> 1. wedding pictures - we never got wedding pictures since I disliked

> my smile and protrusive profile (looked terrible in pictures). We got

> married on April 25, 1998 and have known each other since 1989

> (university days) and still don't have a portrait of me. My parents

> said to me " we have wedding pictures of your 2 older brothers but we

> are missing yours " .

>

> 2. graduation pictures - I finished university in 1992 and still have

> to get graduation pictures (10 years after the fact?). I'll pretend

> that I'm 22 years old again when I get them done this year - ha, ha!

>

> 3. family pictures - my hubbie's eldest son, Cory, who is 24 years

> old (boy I am a young mother to him) called and asked for a family

> picture of us which we do not have. My son, , is 5 years old so

> it's about time we get it done before he is a teenager.

>

> 4. vacation - people look at our trip pictures to Australia, Europe,

> etc and ask me " were you there? " because they show lots of scenery,

> my hubbie and but not me! Our next trip to Japan, I will make

> sure my mug is in the picture.

>

> Looking forward to the " new me " . I'm sure when we look better, we

> feel better and beauty will shine through and through

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gawd you have an awesome devious mind! Now if we could smuggle the

elastics and suitable paper clips into the city council meetings, we

could really have some fun!

C.

>

> Folks,

>

> Perhaps I can shed a little light on the rubber band restriction...

>

> > I didn't believe it about the restricted status of those little

> > bands, so I went into my medicine cabinet to look for myself.

Sure

> > enough, it says the same thing... geesh, I can't imagine what

> > purpose anyone could possibly use these things for that would be

> > harmful to their health.....why in the heck we need a federal law

> > restricting them is beyond me.

>

> In the hands of an experienced prankster, those innocent little

> rubber bands can launch a paper clip about 30 yards, with pinpoint

> accuracy. In security circles, they're better known as Kinetic

> Projectile Launchers.

>

>

> > And I wonder, what is the penalty if you are

> > caught with them in your posession and you are not authorized to

> > have them.....

>

> Detention.

>

>

> > I wish I could sleep but I woke up with jaw pain around 4am and

> > can't get back to sleep... I'm trying to avoid my pain pills

cause

> > the pain isn't too bad but just enough to be annoying... seems I

am

> > starting to grind a little at night and it is bugging me....

>

> Some regions have a local channel upon which they televise city

> council meetings. I find this programming to be particularily

> effective in curing insomnia. Your mileage may vary.

>

>

> -john

[Guest guest]

http://www-theory.chem.washington.edu/~trstedl/evlgrin_.gif

> Gawd you have an awesome devious mind! Now if we could smuggle the

> elastics and suitable paper clips into the city council meetings,

we

> could really have some fun!

>

> C.

[Guest guest]

,

I've always had a lot of fun shooting elastics at the ceiling tiles

above my colleagues. It doesn't hurt anybody (no paper clips, sorry),

and they never really know where it's coming from as they fall down

from above!

Wheeee!!!!!!!!!!!

> >

> > Folks,

> >

> > Perhaps I can shed a little light on the rubber band

restriction...

> >

> > > I didn't believe it about the restricted status of those little

> > > bands, so I went into my medicine cabinet to look for myself.

> Sure

> > > enough, it says the same thing... geesh, I can't imagine what

> > > purpose anyone could possibly use these things for that would

be

> > > harmful to their health.....why in the heck we need a federal

law

> > > restricting them is beyond me.

> >

> > In the hands of an experienced prankster, those innocent little

> > rubber bands can launch a paper clip about 30 yards, with

pinpoint

> > accuracy. In security circles, they're better known as Kinetic

> > Projectile Launchers.

> >

> >

> > > And I wonder, what is the penalty if you are

> > > caught with them in your posession and you are not authorized

to

> > > have them.....

> >

> > Detention.

> >

> >

> > > I wish I could sleep but I woke up with jaw pain around 4am and

> > > can't get back to sleep... I'm trying to avoid my pain pills

> cause

> > > the pain isn't too bad but just enough to be annoying... seems

I

> am

> > > starting to grind a little at night and it is bugging me....

> >

> > Some regions have a local channel upon which they televise city

> > council meetings. I find this programming to be particularily

> > effective in curing insomnia. Your mileage may vary.

> >

> >

> > -john

[Guest guest]

, you're an accountant. You're not supposed to have fun at

work.

-john

> ,

>

> I've always had a lot of fun shooting elastics at the ceiling tiles

> above my colleagues. It doesn't hurt anybody (no paper clips,

sorry),

> and they never really know where it's coming from as they fall down

> from above!

>

> Wheeee!!!!!!!!!!!

>

>

[Guest guest]

, you would be surprised at how much fun I have some days .....

and that doesn't include creative accounting.

> > ,

> >

> > I've always had a lot of fun shooting elastics at the ceiling

tiles

> > above my colleagues. It doesn't hurt anybody (no paper clips,

> sorry),

> > and they never really know where it's coming from as they fall

down

> > from above!

> >

> > Wheeee!!!!!!!!!!!

> >

> >