Re: so tired of the turning away

[Guest guest]

Hi , What happened? Are you able to call your therapist when you

need someone to talk to?

In a message dated 5/13/2009 6:32:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

climberkayak@... writes:

I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't

go there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had

hopes for this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody,

but here I am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the

only group of people who would.

> >

> > Thanks,

**************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after

instant savings!

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F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819441%3B36680237%3Bi)

[Guest guest]

Hey there,... " too bitter,too dark,for people who want their coffee with

cream " : I like that,it's very apt.I know that feeling too and I do understand.We

humans are social creatures and it's the most painful kind of existential state

to feel as if you are alone with your own emotions with no one to help you

contain them.I censor myself alot with the people closest to me because although

I may be having a light conversation and appearing to function just fine

internally I'm thinking of much heavier things and am feeling haunted by them.It

hurts and makes me feel alienated and alone but I am now cautious about asking

" too much " of other people's capacity to understand,having gotten burned a few

times.I still reach out but more with my heart than from the depths of my

soul...my soul I often keep to myself.I have a knowingness there that I think

most people just can't bear; they prefer their illusions.

We're here...I'm sorry you're feeling so low.

--

>

> I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most pain

over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

>

> Thanks,

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi , thanks so much for your understanding. I'm having one of those

sleepless nights and it helps to hear/read a friendly voice. It sounds like you

have a good handle on protecting what needs protecting and asking what is

appropriate. I want to learn this because I think I end up hurting myself

really. Growing up with nada, all of my needs didn't matter, all of them got

brushed aside or " one-upped " so in dealing with normal people I have a hard time

figuring out where the line is. Like the same person who'd have a ton of

sympathy over my loss of a grandparent would turn away over my pain about my

mother showing she doesn't really care about me. It confuses me too because my

line is a lot different where I shut off - I won't say there isn't a line at

all, but I'm willing to be there for things most people I know aren't. But

then maybe people having that line is healthy and how they protect themselves,

keep themselves stable?

> >

> > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most pain

over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,I think most people just don't " get it " unless it's happened to them.I can

imaginatively empathize with life situations and painful experiences I haven't

had myself but I think that's because I lived through alot of horror myself and

I KNOW that unspeakable things happen every day in this world and I have no

reason to deny it.My ego or my need to hunker down with blinders so my pet

beliefs about society or the meaning of life or why we're here or whatever

aren't threatened by the reality of someone else's experience.I was trained by

nada to adapt and adapt and adapt--most people are taught by their parents how

to function in their own orbit of what is just and right and functional and are

never stretched beyond that,if that makes any sense.They haven't had to know

otherwise and they see no reason to do so.My compassion for others gets me into

trouble at times where I'm TOO understanding.I personally still need to learn

when to call a spade a spade and just leave it at that.I feel at times like I'm

frozen at the point of still being an open,accepting child who forgives too

much,too easily.My " shut off " line needs some refining too!

It's around the first anniversary of my fada's death and people at work have

kindly remembered this and expressed sympathy but there's a kind of weird

eeriness to that because I know that if they knew all the sordid details,their

sympathy would curdle into disgust and you can sure bet they'd turn away like

you said.Why? Because it's beyond the realm of their experience and therefore

their comprehension and they just do not get it.That has nothing to do with me

and although it hurts to know they'd most likely react negatively to the truth,I

remind myself that this is not due to any personal defect with me.Nor is it a

defect with you when others cannot get it.

My needs didn't matter with nada either and learning the fine art of self

preservation has been hard for me.I want badly for someone to

understand.Accepting that there are people who just won't--and can't--understand

was a big hurdle to stumble over.Being shunned after all we've been through is

like the limit.It is for me,anyway.I don't know how much of what other people

refuse to take in or accept is " healthy " per se,but I do know that when I get

that horrible frustrated feeling of not being heard or understood and decide to

call it a day and move on while still hoping that later maybe I'll encounter

someone else who can know where I'm coming from is what keeps ME stable.

> > >

> > > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I'm so sorry.  I think people often don't know how to respond to very intense

kinds of pain and some of them really don't want to go there.  Did you tell your

therapist that you had perceived she had turned away from you?  Sometimes people

can grow if they know what they are doing wrong.  My therapist isn't perfect but

she's improving.  I just keep having to tell her what I need.

I hope you feel better soon.

Ashana

From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to

http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/

[Guest guest]

, I am sorry you're having a hard time finding a good therapist. I

will tell you, though, I had a horrible experience with a therapist in 2007,

then went into pastoral counseling for 2008 and was finally set up with my

current therapist in Sept. 2008. She is really good, but I interviewed at

least 10 before I found her. So sometimes it is a matter of trying someone

for a month and then moving on to someone else. Are you in or near

Atlanta?

In a message dated 5/13/2009 3:50:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

climberkayak@... writes:

Thanks for asking - no, it's my therapist who triggered me. Then I

posted on a board where people are normally supportive and no one responded.

Yet I could see in the " views " column that people had read the post but not

responded over a period of hours and that triggered me further. I've only

seen this therapist a few times after a history of having a very hard time

finding one I can work with. I have a struggle in that sometimes the

therapist really does screw up but because my triggers are directly related to

being heard/understood therapy is very dangerous for my mental health - how

ironic, eh? So it's hard to tell if it's them or me or both. I will bring it

up next sessios with her. I read on another post how much help your

therapist is to you and I'm so glad you have that. I wish I could find one who

I

could develop that kind of relationship with too.

--- In _WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_

(mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) , Hummingbird1298@, Humm

>

> Hi , What happened? Are you able to call your therapist when you

> need someone to talk to?

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 5/13/2009 6:32:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> climberkayak@ climberkayak@

>

> I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

> pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is

an

> acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh

don't

> go there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with

cream.

> Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had

> hopes for this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to

anybody,

> but here I am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the

> only group of people who would.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

>

> ************ ************<WBR>**Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting

> instant savings!

>

(_http://pr.atwola.http://pr.atwhttp://pr.atwolahttp://pr.atwolahttp://pr.http:/\

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ad.doubl

eclick.net/clk;214819441;36680237;i) )

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

**************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after

instant savings!

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[Guest guest]

, what you said about being too open and forgiving too easily sure

struck a chord with me. Well, actually everything you said too! It amazes me

over and over what we all share in common on this board. I think that I would

be open, not judge in the same situation and then another closes down is the

source of that pain. Our nadas didn't want to let us grow up and in my case I

was strongly encouraged to be her therapist/confidante. That's left lasting

patterns that cause a lot of trouble. I like your point though about moving

on....these are feeling to pay attention to.

Thanks,

> > > >

> > > > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Oh and forgot to add (see now we can say how much of listener am I eh?) I'm

sorry about your father - I can imagine this one year anniversary contains a lot

of mixed feelings that can't really be shared with people giving condolences.

Most can't understand grieving the parent we never had. I guess in the end your

coworkers are expressing caring for you and that's what matters even though they

couldn't handle knowing the whole deal.

> > > >

> > > > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

just wanted to let you know...that I share that experience....

I wonder aqt times, when i just need some human interaction, mthat i come off as

being to needy or something...hoping i didnt offend anyone, i wonder why i turn

'em off or something...

and some times, it could very well be that ive said something that came across

being insensitive - and i apologize if i have in any way. I hope to establish

friendships and support from this group - i have a tremedous need to be heard

and understood,

- Steve

Subject: Re: so tired of the turning away

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 7:49 PM

Thanks for asking - no, it's my therapist who triggered me. Then I posted

on a board where people are normally supportive and no one responded. Yet I

could see in the " views " column that people had read the post but not responded

over a period of hours and that triggered me further. I've only seen this

therapist a few times after a history of having a very hard time finding one I

can work with. I have a struggle in that sometimes the therapist really does

screw up but because my triggers are directly related to being heard/understood

therapy is very dangerous for my mental health - how ironic, eh? So it's hard to

tell if it's them or me or both. I will bring it up next sessios with her. I

read on another post how much help your therapist is to you and I'm so glad you

have that. I wish I could find one who I could develop that kind of relationship

with too.

>

> Hi , What happened? Are you able to call your therapist when you

> need someone to talk to?

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 5/13/2009 6:32:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> climberkayak@ ... writes:

>

> I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

> pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

> acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't

> go there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

> Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had

> hopes for this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody,

> but here I am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the

> only group of people who would.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

>

> ************ **Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after

> instant savings!

> (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122197 2443x1201442012/ aol?redir=

http:%2F% 2Fad.doubleclick .net%2Fclk% 3B214819441% 3B36680237% 3Bi)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> ,

> just wanted to let you know...that I share that experience....

> I wonder aqt times, when i just need some human interaction, mthat i come off

as being to needy or something...hoping i didnt offend anyone, i wonder why i

turn 'em off or something...

> and some times, it could very well be that ive said something that came across

being insensitive - and i apologize if i have in any way. I hope to establish

friendships and support from this group - i have a tremedous need to be heard

and understood,

> - Steve

Steve,

That's the human condition and a part of who we are -we all want to be heard and

understood. I think that as KOs, sometimes that can get a bit skewed. If you

think about it, KOs can be at a real deficit in that department. The 'cup' that

is to be filled by a parent's love is not only empty for the most part, it also

has a hole drilled in the bottom so that whatever drips in leaks out!!! So

sometimes, yes, I think it does take extra work on our parts in the areas of

relationsips, needs, boundaries, reciprocity, co-dependence, ... and

understandably so. But the good news is that we are starting to understand, to

examine our hearts and lives, to see if there is a need for change in ourselves

or our choice of friends, etc. This is not a bad place to be ... true, there are

better - but there are worse! If we can be honest in scoping out our own hearts,

I say we are doing pretty darn well considering our damaged beginnings! Keep up

the great work!

[Guest guest]

,

So then, I can actially say that I HAVE made some head-way in this thing...

I will also say, that grieving was a big part of it, not being affriad to face

those experinces and feelings that derived from them...its sort of like cleaning

out pipes of plumbing..

im sure there are other analogies

Subject: Re: so tired of the turning away

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Wednesday, May 13, 2009, 8:52 PM

>

> ,

> just wanted to let you know...that I share that experience.. ..

> I wonder aqt times, when i just need some human interaction, mthat i come off

as being to needy or something... hoping i didnt offend anyone, i wonder why i

turn 'em off or something...

> and some times, it could very well be that ive said something that came across

being insensitive - and i apologize if i have in any way. I hope to establish

friendships and support from this group - i have a tremedous need to be heard

and understood,

> - Steve

Steve,

That's the human condition and a part of who we are -we all want to be heard and

understood. I think that as KOs, sometimes that can get a bit skewed. If you

think about it, KOs can be at a real deficit in that department. The 'cup' that

is to be filled by a parent's love is not only empty for the most part, it also

has a hole drilled in the bottom so that whatever drips in leaks out!!! So

sometimes, yes, I think it does take extra work on our parts in the areas of

relationsips, needs, boundaries, reciprocity, co-dependence, ... and

understandably so. But the good news is that we are starting to understand, to

examine our hearts and lives, to see if there is a need for change in ourselves

or our choice of friends, etc. This is not a bad place to be ... true, there are

better - but there are worse! If we can be honest in scoping out our own hearts,

I say we are doing pretty darn well considering our damaged beginnings! Keep up

the great work!

[Guest guest]

,

I'm glad you are feeling somewhat better.  I posted earlier and then started to

think maybe you weren't posting about a recent event, but about one of the many

therapists that had gone spectacularly bad for you and I started to worry I'd

been accidentally totally insensitive to you.

It's odd that I had a similar experience with my therapist recently also.  It

sometimes very much seems to me that my therapist doesn't want to deal with

emotions that are too intense at times and she copes by retreating into a more

intellectual, safe realm of trying to solve problems and figure out the cause of

my issues.  I really don't know to what extent my reading of her is me and to

what extent it is real.  I tend to think she really does feel anxious sometimes

and she really does cope with anxiety by problem-solving instead of dealing with

feelings, but that maybe I don't always know the cause of her anxiety and that

it's not necessarily my emotions that are setting it off.

I hang in there with her because she seems genuinely like she wants to try and

she genuinely wants to meet my needs even if it means working in a way she's not

all that used to and I do trust her to be able to learn to work with me

better--she does seem to improve over time.  She just kind of needs a chance to

get it.  I also feel sometimes that if she has trouble understanding me, other

people I'd like to be closer to will also have trouble and it may be partly up

to me to figure out how to help her--like sometimes I should be thinking about

how to give her a way in.

It is hard for me not to be heard also or to feel understood.  It's hard just in

itself not to feel understood--especially since it's the person I'm paying to

understand me and she earns a living at it and she still can't get it--and it

leaves me to try to sort out my emotions and experiences on my own, which can be

really hard.  But then I also find it hard to let someone, especially an expert,

have a different feeling or thought about something and not feel guilty for

disagreeing and for hanging onto my own point of view.

Yesterday, I had to tell her I needed to slow down and think about how I was

actually feeling.  I really should not have to do that--if she were skilled in

working with trauma survivors she would have known to do that.  But I think it's

okay that I need to do that.  She has other good qualities and it is good

practice for me to think about and ask for what I need.

I'm sorry this is so long.  Thanks for listening and good luck with your own

process.  It's hard to find a good therapist.  Let us know how it goes.  I hope

it works out.

Best,

Ashana

Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India

Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve and welcome to the group. I think put it perfectly in her

response to you that we KO's just have trouble with the " need " thing. Is it

okay to have needs? Which needs? How much to ask from whom? When you grow up

in a crazy upside down family life it's so hard to know. I've seen all my life

how my nada's needs have harmed me and others, and I don't want to become her.

Yet having a BP parent by definition leave you with unmet needs into adulthood

so what's a person to do? Bah, just lots of questions running around in my

mind tonight. Hope you enjoy the group - good people here.

> >

> > Hi , What happened? Are you able to call your therapist when you

> > need someone to talk to?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 5/13/2009 6:32:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> > climberkayak@ ... writes:

> >

> > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

> > pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

> > acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh

don't

> > go there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

> > Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had

> > hopes for this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to

anybody,

> > but here I am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the

> > only group of people who would.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> >

> > ************ **Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after

> > instant savings!

> > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122197 2443x1201442012/

aol?redir= http:%2F% 2Fad.doubleclick .net%2Fclk% 3B214819441% 3B36680237% 3Bi)

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi , interviewed 10 wow! Good on you for keeping at it till you found

someone who could really help. Unfortunately not near Atlanta though. I'll

talk with my therapist about how I felt and see how it goes. What she did by

objectively speaking was just insensitive and mildly annoying, but in *the

context* of where I'm at and my history set off some pretty bad stuff. I'm

feeling way better now though.

Thanks much to you everyone,

>

> , I am sorry you're having a hard time finding a good therapist. I

> will tell you, though, I had a horrible experience with a therapist in 2007,

> then went into pastoral counseling for 2008 and was finally set up with my

> current therapist in Sept. 2008. She is really good, but I interviewed at

> least 10 before I found her. So sometimes it is a matter of trying someone

> for a month and then moving on to someone else. Are you in or near

> Atlanta?

>

>

>

>

> In a message dated 5/13/2009 3:50:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> climberkayak@... writes:

>

>

>

>

>

> Thanks for asking - no, it's my therapist who triggered me. Then I

> posted on a board where people are normally supportive and no one responded.

> Yet I could see in the " views " column that people had read the post but not

> responded over a period of hours and that triggered me further. I've only

> seen this therapist a few times after a history of having a very hard time

> finding one I can work with. I have a struggle in that sometimes the

> therapist really does screw up but because my triggers are directly related

to

> being heard/understood therapy is very dangerous for my mental health - how

> ironic, eh? So it's hard to tell if it's them or me or both. I will bring it

> up next sessios with her. I read on another post how much help your

> therapist is to you and I'm so glad you have that. I wish I could find one

who I

> could develop that kind of relationship with too.

>

>

>

> --- In _WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_

> (mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) , Hummingbird1298@, Humm

> >

> > Hi , What happened? Are you able to call your therapist when you

> > need someone to talk to?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 5/13/2009 6:32:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> > climberkayak@ climberkayak@

> >

> > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

> > pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is

> an

> > acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh

> don't

> > go there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with

> cream.

> > Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had

> > hopes for this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to

> anybody,

> > but here I am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the

> > only group of people who would.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> >

> > ************ ************<WBR>**Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting

> > instant savings!

> >

>

(_http://pr.atwola.http://pr.atwhttp://pr.atwolahttp://pr.atwolahttp://pr.http:/\

/prhttp://pr.atwolahttp://pr.ahttp://pr.athttp://pr.ahtt_

>

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221972443x1201442012/aol?redir=http://\

ad.doubl

> eclick.net/clk;214819441;36680237;i) )

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

>

>

>

>

>

> **************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after

> instant savings!

>

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221972443x1201442012/aol?redir=http:%2\

F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819441%3B36680237%3Bi)

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ashana, everything's fine you weren't insensitive at all. I appreciate you

sharing your therapy experience too as I am on a very similar page. OTOH, like

you, I feel I should not have to tell my therapist how to do her job, how to be

more sensitive, how to interpret me, how to not trigger me, how to know when

she's off on her own and totally alienating me. AND YET like you say again we

have to deal with people in real life and negotiate those relationships, be

aware of our feelings, work out how to get our needs met in a healthy way. It's

good practice if the therapist is willing to adjust and can learn. Yet...I

gotta say in my case I'm not always in a mature place when discussing the things

I need help with the most - it'd be nice to have the therapist know what to do

without making things worse.

The part that had me despairing was that I've tried therapy on and off for over

a decade now. It's been some help at times, some harm, but it's never been the

great healing I was hoping for. There's some cliche about how " we're the one's

we are waiting for " ...maybe that's how it has to be.

Good luck with your therapist too,

>

> ,

>

> I'm glad you are feeling somewhat better.  I posted earlier and then started

to think maybe you weren't posting about a recent event, but about one of the

many therapists that had gone spectacularly bad for you and I started to worry

I'd been accidentally totally insensitive to you.

>

> It's odd that I had a similar experience with my therapist recently also.  It

sometimes very much seems to me that my therapist doesn't want to deal with

emotions that are too intense at times and she copes by retreating into a more

intellectual, safe realm of trying to solve problems and figure out the cause of

my issues.  I really don't know to what extent my reading of her is me and to

what extent it is real.  I tend to think she really does feel anxious sometimes

and she really does cope with anxiety by problem-solving instead of dealing with

feelings, but that maybe I don't always know the cause of her anxiety and that

it's not necessarily my emotions that are setting it off.

>

> I hang in there with her because she seems genuinely like she wants to try and

she genuinely wants to meet my needs even if it means working in a way she's not

all that used to and I do trust her to be able to learn to work with me

better--she does seem to improve over time.  She just kind of needs a chance to

get it.  I also feel sometimes that if she has trouble understanding me, other

people I'd like to be closer to will also have trouble and it may be partly up

to me to figure out how to help her--like sometimes I should be thinking about

how to give her a way in.

>

> It is hard for me not to be heard also or to feel understood.  It's hard just

in itself not to feel understood--especially since it's the person I'm paying to

understand me and she earns a living at it and she still can't get it--and it

leaves me to try to sort out my emotions and experiences on my own, which can be

really hard.  But then I also find it hard to let someone, especially an expert,

have a different feeling or thought about something and not feel guilty for

disagreeing and for hanging onto my own point of view.

>

> Yesterday, I had to tell her I needed to slow down and think about how I was

actually feeling.  I really should not have to do that--if she were skilled in

working with trauma survivors she would have known to do that.  But I think it's

okay that I need to do that.  She has other good qualities and it is good

practice for me to think about and ask for what I need.

>

> I'm sorry this is so long.  Thanks for listening and good luck with your own

process.  It's hard to find a good therapist.  Let us know how it goes.  I hope

it works out.

>

> Best,

> Ashana

>

>

> Explore and discover exciting holidays and getaways with Yahoo! India

Travel http://in.travel.yahoo.com/

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks ...

its tough'''what makes it feel even tougher is feeling alone'

I dont have any friends....I mean a person I could just call up and

chat...someone to grab a bite to eat ...a movie etc.. 

I had that in my youth...I miss having that..I dont like feeling isolated...and

now, living with nada and fada is mind bending.....my slefmworth and esteem is

really getting hammered...hammered by ME...

I think im punishing myself psychology and emotionally because of being

here....and yet, Im glad I had a place to go when I became physically ill and

impaired - just confused..wop0ndering if I'll ever get out of here 

Subject: Re: so tired of the turning away

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 3:29 AM

Hi Steve and welcome to the group. I think put it perfectly in her

response to you that we KO's just have trouble with the " need " thing. Is it okay

to have needs? Which needs? How much to ask from whom? When you grow up in a

crazy upside down family life it's so hard to know. I've seen all my life how my

nada's needs have harmed me and others, and I don't want to become her. Yet

having a BP parent by definition leave you with unmet needs into adulthood so

what's a person to do? Bah, just lots of questions running around in my mind

tonight. Hope you enjoy the group - good people here.

> >

> > Hi , What happened? Are you able to call your therapist when you

> > need someone to talk to?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 5/13/2009 6:32:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> > climberkayak@ ... writes:

> >

> > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

> > pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

> > acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh

don't

> > go there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

> > Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had

> > hopes for this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to

anybody,

> > but here I am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the

> > only group of people who would.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> >

> > ************ **Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after

> > instant savings!

> > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122197 2443x1201442012/

aol?redir= http:%2F% 2Fad.doubleclick .net%2Fclk% 3B214819441% 3B36680237% 3Bi)

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi,...I think I was having a " reading comprehension challenged moment " when

I read your first post.I didn't realize that you were talking about something

that had happened with your therapist in the recent past.I thought you were

referring to something that had happened before a while ago.

So,I didn't mean to come off so doomy and gloomy about people " not getting

it " .I was referring to people we know who just can't apprehend the extent of the

damage we have and the suffering we've endured at the hands of our nadas..I

think I know what you mean about being open and not judging with others and then

when we need the same understanding it's not forthcoming.That really feels like

a slap in the face.But with a therapist the essential need is to feel safe so we

can attempt to freely express our feelings.I saw a therapist for a year and a

half when I was in my twenties and although we had a great intellectual rapport

and could philosophize together,I made no headway with her in dealing with my

emotions.It took me that long to accept that it just wasn't working.I have come

to understand since then that what I needed was someone who could gently walk me

through the basics,who could address herself to the wounded child in me first

then carefully proceed to working with the confused adult who needed guidance.We

went right to the adult and every time I tried to show her the child she focused

on how well functioning I was,trying to build up my confidence in the skills I

did have.I ended up feeling unheard and misunderstood.

I didn't know,at the time,how to explain to her what I needed.What I really

needed was to take it very slow and to establish a feeling of security and

safety with her before we delved into intensely emotional issues.I found this

article that helped me--I don't see a therapist but I liked the concept of this

article so much that I apply these ideas internally acting as my own " therapist "

when I need to slow down and reconnect with how I am feeling instead of forcing

myself to " perform " .It might give you a talking point to discuss with your

therapist,something to work from.The article is about establishing a feeling of

safety in the therapeutic relationship BEFORE addressing specific issues and

runs a bit counter to the conventional " wisdom " of diving right into your hurt

and exposing it as a way of resolving it.

I get triggered by worrying if I've been heard and understood,too.

Here is the article:

http://www.giftfromwithin.org/html/brakes.html

--

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks,

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

Thanks for the link. I look forward to reading the article. It seems like you've

put a lot of hard work into understanding some really basic yet very important

concepts in your self care. Wow - I'm impressed and I appreciate your words and

input. I hope it's helpful to . I think it will be to me.

Take care,

[Guest guest]

Hi , that article was very interesting thanks for posting it. I sure

wish my EMDR therapists had read it! With two different therapists I saw I left

their offices in that state of hyperarousal they described in the article kind

of frozen and shaking. It took my days to recover and was pretty scary. That

stuff happened many years ago. No matter how many positive stories I hear about

EMDR I'm never doing that again.

I relate to your experience about a therapist talking to just your adult or

intellectual self. That's a big part of the problem for me. I tend to

intellectualize and theorize most of the time - maybe it's even a defense so if

someone can't help me get down in the emotions like you say no progress happens.

Another issue which I'd be curious if you or other KO's relate to is that I give

false body language. I don't do it on purpose, but I can take an emotional hit

to the heart and still smile and act like physically like nothing happened. I

learned to do that as a kid because showing my pain or anger in any way was a

really baaaaad idea, it just triggered nada further. Often I don't even feel

it - the bad event happens and I'll have the reaction hours later. This makes

it hard for a therapist to relate to me as I need them to - maybe they can't

read me worth a darn!

thanks again,

julie

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the

most pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Steve, sorry I'm so late replying and to anyone else I've missed. This board

is so wonderful and active sometimes I lose track of the messages. I can only

imagine the horror of livign with your parents while you in a bad place in your

life. I had to do it for one year after I'd moved away and the effects were

terrible. It's harder to go back because I think our repression mechanisms

start to let up so we feel more than before. Steve, I hope whatever is going on

with you that you can recover soon and I don't know the details but if there's

any way to get out of that house it's worth taking it. Even if it means living

in poorer circumstances than you'd wish. I wish you a full and speedy recovery

keep visualzing and working towards a future where you get out of there.

good luck,

julie

> > >

> > > Hi , What happened? Are you able to call your therapist when you

> > > need someone to talk to?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > In a message dated 5/13/2009 6:32:09 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

> > > climberkayak@ ... writes:

> > >

> > > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most

> > > pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

> > > acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh

don't

> > > go there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with

cream.

> > > Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had

> > > hopes for this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to

anybody,

> > > but here I am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the

> > > only group of people who would.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks,

> > >

> > > ************ **Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after

> > > instant savings!

> > > (http://pr.atwola. com/promoclk/ 100126575x122197 2443x1201442012/

aol?redir= http:%2F% 2Fad.doubleclick .net%2Fclk% 3B214819441% 3B36680237% 3Bi)

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

,

I've seen several therapists over the years and some are better than others. The

times I have tried to deal with the child in me have seemed so bizarre that I

just can't do it. I don't know if I'm afraid to go back there or if it just

doesn't seem to make any sense to me because I can't change the past. I

certainly don't want to relive any of it. I can only go forward.

I'm sorry to hear the EMDR experience was not good for you. I've never been

through it, but I have left a therapist's office slightly shaken and it has

taken awhile to get back to normal.

What I have found helpful is to see a therapist for a few months and deal with

issues that are specific at the time. Then I take what I learned there, process

it and work through issues by myself. When it's time to see a therapist again, I

go find one. I don't want to spend year after year in therapy because I honestly

don't see the point. I want to live my life now, not in the past, and except for

one therapist, they all want to focus on what happened, not on what is happening

now. I don't want to revisit my past unless I have to.

Abby

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the

most pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,

I can relate to what you are saying.  It's not so much that my body language is

false, but that it's restrained and it's also somewhat complex and communicates

more than a single message.  It's not intentional, but I'm also not unaware of

it.  People who are very observant notice it and respond to it right away. 

People who are not miss it or misinterpret it.  I'm sure it's partly a result

of needing to conceal my emotions as a child so that nada would not react to

them in very frightening ways, but I think it may be also partly a matter of

termperament and personality.  In addition, I think it's that I grew up needing

to be alert to body language, and so I notice it and I expect other people to

notice the same level of physical expression that I would notice but they don't

always.  I don't think it's pathological to expect other people to be more or

less like you.  It's just unfortunate when that does not work out to be the

case.

With a former therapist (who did not work out for me), I expressed the same

thing very succinctly and concisely on one occasion and on another

occasion--when I was really annoyed with her--I got very agitated and expressive

and rambled and was redundant and repititious--not because the issue was more

serious, but because I was fed up with her.

She did not get it when I just stated the issue plainly and directly.  When I

got worked up and said the same thing with greater intonation and I also said

it 5 or 6 times in different ways, she got it.  It kind of boggles my mind that

people need that kind of over-the-top (to me) way of communicating, but some

people do.

I find that people often just need a way in.  I've taken the cue from my

students, actually.  When I first started teaching in a public school, I

noticed that they often could not read me, had no idea what my expectations

were, and did not respond at all to subtle body language.  So, now I start off

the year by directly stating what certain expressions or gestures mean--so that

the gestures are accompanied by verbal information--and I also exaggerate the

gestures and expressions so that they are more obvious.  As the year goes on

and students know me better, I gradually taper this off, to the point where I

can often tell them to do something with just the direction of my gaze--no

words, and an extremely subtle gesture. 

It's like training a dog in a way--not that my students are like animals.  I

just mean you start off in training a dog with a verbal command and a gesture

and you make the gesture really obvious and provide additional information about

what is expected (like gently pushing them down when you command them to lie

down).  As they come to know what you expect from them more automatically, you

can use either just the word or the gesture, and you don't have to make the

gesture as obvious.

Therapists, I think, may be able to be approached the same way.  It's hard to

show emotion sometimes too obviously for some of us--because my nada was such a

wreck all of the time, I associate open emotional displays with weakness and

it's hard to overcome that early conditioning--but it can be amped up at least a

little without causing huge amounts of discomfort, and you can help a

therapist out with more overt descriptions of how you feel so that they

know what that expression means from you.  For example, if you are sad, you

can try to look just a little more sad and then explain in words just how sad

you feel.

It's still a little puzzling to me how to make it work.  I really do feel like

I was raised by wolves at times and am unprepared for life among civilized human

beings.  I don't really get why my current therapist does not seem to notice

when I get choked up or realize that having my voice break is the emotional

equivalent for me of being utterly overwhelmed by sorrow, but I also figure that

if I tell her that that's what it means, she could probably respond a lot

better.  I just haven't gotten to it.  I find it hard to point out the obvious

at times--I always feel like I'm treating the other person like they are

stupid.  But I also find that pointing out the obvious can really help--because

what is obvious to you is not always to someone else.  Even telling them later,

I think, can help.  Like, if you say, you know we talked about this last

session and it really did not hit me at the time, but this is how I felt

later--that can help, because then

they know your immediate reaction is to be numb, which is really a sign that

things are overwhelming for you, instead of thinking that things are just not

that intense for you.  They will also realize they should not push you to get

at suppressed feelings and they need to take a more gentle approach.  Numbness

isn't denial--it's a response to overwhelming emotions.

I also think it's really important to have a therapist who helps you learn to

focus on your feelings.  I can do a lot of that on my own now, but for years I

had (and needed) therapists who asked how my body felt and who were very alert

to signs that I was in distress, or that I was dissociating and could bring me

back.  Having a therapist who knows how to work with trauma survivors, and

realizes that trauma is the issue in your particular case, is enormously

helpful.

Sorry this is so long.

Best,

Ashana

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sunday, 17 May, 2009 2:31:20 PM

Subject: Re: so tired of the turning away

Hi , that article was very interesting thanks for posting it. I sure

wish my EMDR therapists had read it! With two different therapists I saw I left

their offices in that state of hyperarousal they described in the article kind

of frozen and shaking. It took my days to recover and was pretty scary. That

stuff happened many years ago. No matter how many positive stories I hear about

EMDR I'm never doing that again.

I relate to your experience about a therapist talking to just your adult or

intellectual self. That's a big part of the problem for me. I tend to

intellectualize and theorize most of the time - maybe it's even a defense so if

someone can't help me get down in the emotions like you say no progress happens.

Another issue which I'd be curious if you or other KO's relate to is that I give

false body language. I don't do it on purpose, but I can take an emotional hit

to the heart and still smile and act like physically like nothing happened. I

learned to do that as a kid because showing my pain or anger in any way was a

really baaaaad idea, it just triggered nada further. Often I don't even feel it

- the bad event happens and I'll have the reaction hours later. This makes it

hard for a therapist to relate to me as I need them to - maybe they can't read

me worth a darn!

thanks again,

julie

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the

most pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream. Hell,

even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for this

one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I am

posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of people

who would.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Bring your gang together. Do your thing. Find your favourite Yahoo! group

at http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/

[Guest guest]

,

It seems like when I have had that experience - no one being there, I was at my

most desparate. It has happenend a few times in my life when I have been at the

end of my rope and had no one to turn to. It was then that I sought guidance

through a " higher power " to help me through. For me it was the universe taking

away everything so I would seek a spiritual source of support. Perhaps that may

be a source of support for you as well. Just a thought.

Hope you are feeling better,

Jaye

>

> I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most pain

over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

>

> Thanks,

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have a feeling you are right...sometimes I turn away from the spiritual

because I'm angry for even being born into this life situation, but that is

self-defeating. Still looking back on my life it is like you say when no one is

there God still is.

Thanks,

> >

> > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the most pain

over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Oh my goodness,,yes,I have done that too! I can take an emotional hit to

the heart like you said and absurdly keep right on smiling.The lesson I learned

from nada was: Show any weakness and you shall be slain...Also: If you are

anything but HAPPY no matter how much I hurt you,there will be hell to pay...So

someone can wound me and I won't show it.And yes,sometimes I don't even know how

offended or hurt I was by something until later and then I think,HEY,that effing

pissed me off.

I hate,really hate,that I do this and have been working on it.I'm getting

better at showing some kind of reaction when I feel hurt,if only to not seem to

let it just slide on by.I used to feel this flinch of nervousness when someone

cut me down or insulted me or was being gross and my immediate reaction was to

act like it hadn't affected me.I think it's a form of dissociation because even

entertaining the thought of showing them how I really felt struck me as

dangerous--there would be negative consequences.Any display of vulnerability

would only get me attacked or rejected.

In relationships this has set me up to be abused,as in,the other person

saying that their misbehavior didn't seem to bother me much so it must be

ok...or people thinking that I'm not really serious and don't really care and am

not really engaged in relating..I'm about as far from a " shallow " person as you

can be and yet I've given this impression at times..out of pure fear of

revealing my weaknesses.

I've had to overcome my terror of sparking a nada-like retaliation in

others and to learn to speak up and express my irritation when I need to.I tend

to prefer " flight " in a conflict and when I have to " fight " I come out guns

blazing and regret it afterward.Or I go blank and only think of what I could

have said when the moment has passed.

I know that I can be hard for others to " read " when I'm flinching and

shrugging off my own hurt so if it's really important I do tell people that I

need time to think about it and to talk about it later.Sometimes I need time to

work out how I really feel.If I am upset about something and reflexively blowing

it off my girlfriend and I arrange a " date " of my choosing to discuss it when my

head is clearer because when it first happens I become inarticulate and

overwhelmed and just want to run away.She is very patient.

I theorize alot too--I think because growing up I had zero permission to

explore my feelings but since I wasn't actually an insensate blob like nada

wished I was I had to process my feelings somehow and they came up more as

theories and musings than as raw emotion.Raw emotion of course being only

allowed to nada.I lived mostly in my head,like I was disembodied from the rest

of me.

From what I understand of EMDR it should only be attempted later in therapy

after you have identified and worked on what troubles you emotionally and only

after you have establshed enough trust in your therapist to help you to regroup

when you try to integrate your trauma,which is the purpose of doing EMDR.I find

it shocking that you were left to go home in a state of hyperarousal,that is NOT

the purpose of EMDR and I'm really sorry that happened to you.

This is the last day--already!--of my vacation and if I have time I hope to

post some more.You brought up some stuff I was going to mention,it's like we're

both working on the same stuff.It helps me to know I'm not the only one going

through this.Thanks for being here,.

--

. -- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " climberkayak "

wrote:

>

> Hi , that article was very interesting thanks for posting it. I sure

wish my EMDR therapists had read it! With two different therapists I saw I left

their offices in that state of hyperarousal they described in the article kind

of frozen and shaking. It took my days to recover and was pretty scary. That

stuff happened many years ago. No matter how many positive stories I hear about

EMDR I'm never doing that again.

>

> I relate to your experience about a therapist talking to just your adult or

intellectual self. That's a big part of the problem for me. I tend to

intellectualize and theorize most of the time - maybe it's even a defense so if

someone can't help me get down in the emotions like you say no progress happens.

>

> Another issue which I'd be curious if you or other KO's relate to is that I

give false body language. I don't do it on purpose, but I can take an emotional

hit to the heart and still smile and act like physically like nothing happened.

I learned to do that as a kid because showing my pain or anger in any way was a

really baaaaad idea, it just triggered nada further. Often I don't even feel

it - the bad event happens and I'll have the reaction hours later. This makes

it hard for a therapist to relate to me as I need them to - maybe they can't

read me worth a darn!

>

> thanks again,

> julie

>

>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm so sick and tired of how when I need it most, when I'm in the

most pain over my nada so many I need turn away and off. It's like there is an

acceptable set of problems that deserve sympathy and empathy, but ohhhh don't go

there. Too bitter, too dark, for people who want their coffee with cream.

Hell, even my therapist turned off when I really needed her and I had hopes for

this one too. It makes me want to never reach out again to anybody, but here I

am posting here...hoping you guys understand. This may be the only group of

people who would.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>