RE: Vaginal PH DTROLL and TIFFANY

[Guest guest]

Well, hon, I'm glad that it's worked for you and for a few others,and that many other have left the list cured. That gives me the kind of hope I'm looking for. But it is indeed ludicrous for a doc to be presented with my history/experience thus far (raging Yeast infection in response to vaginal Estrace and hives and external yeast in response to Nystatin w/zinc oxide and 1% hydrocortizone and intense purple rash in response to Bethamesone Cream ) to THEN prescribe for me an internal estrogen ring and an external estrogen oil!!! In my opinion, that borders on criminal - given the written history in the file and the pain it added to an already unbearable condition. And truly, hon, the fact that I'm new to the list shouldn't negate my experiences so far. I have been suffering with the condtion for almost a year now....and I definitely have some opinions about the lack of medical attention to this disorder, as it pertains to me.

Let's put this in perspective for a moment - none of us (me, you, ) is generalizing, we are personalizing . Therefore, in my case, as in so many others from the list - throwing creams at the problem only worsens it. If we could all be cured by using creams, there wouldn't be a disorder called vulvodynia, right?

For the record , my Dad had chronic emphysema- which eventually killed him. He DID take two kinds of oral meds (Prednisone was one of them) long before he ever started on the inhalers. Again, I'm personalizing - my information comes from the experiences of my lifetime .

I think we needn't pursue this any further as it seems to have developed into a battle of sorts. said, " I'm not sure if we are disagreeing". I'm not posting to the list to argue, I'm posting to vent my frustrations over my own treatment and to find out if other's have had a more successful treatment. It's my opinion that's being offered here - not an invitation to "do battle" (grin). There is really no other motive to my postings than to find an end to this misery - as you have for yours.

A question for - the Benedryl - is it Benedryl Cream that is applied to your skin? If so is it over the counter? I had a purple rash reaction to over the counter Bendryl Cream so if you are getting it made by prescription, maybe that's something I can ask my doc about.

Again, please remember that I am posting to the list about my own experiences. I am not trying to say that your success with this type of treatment is not a positive thing.......I am only commenting upon my lack of success

Let's play nice (grin)

Dusty

Hormones helping. (Dusty) was vaginal pH

HI all

Dusty you said;

"The idea that a doc would prescribe an internal and external cream ( as inmy case ) and say see my in 3 months is .....well, ludicrous... given thelevel of pain this condition causes."

I just have to totally disagree with you on that one hon, nothing personal but it definitely isn't ludicrous to me at all. And after ten years of extreme pain and hell in my own case, 'that' was definitely what restored my tissue to normal (using a topical cream like the Estrace) but it did take me a full six months. So it's no fast fix that's for sure.

Estrogen used topically and intravaginally is known for it's restorative powers of the tissue, and is why they use it with menopausal women. There is no doubt It can do that. I agree that it may not be the first approach to this, (usually a steroid is for symptom relief after other diseases have been ruled out ) but as an adjunct? to me it makes logical sense.

My pain was all external in the vulvar area and at the vestibule, I could 'touch' my pain in other words and visibly see the inflammation, and with a magnifying glass and mirror and flashlight could see the many tears, splits or rips. (naked eye, no) where they looked like tiny microscopic invisible razor cuts. For 'me' it wasn't an allergy, or pelvic floor dysfunction, or dietary issue in 'my' case and it definitely wasn't psychological (some doctors try to make you feel like it's that) But the tissue had lost its' collagen, elastin and stretchability so of course sex caused extreme pain and the estrogen cream (topical usage) brought 'me' completely back to normal.

It's not only me and I know you're fairly new on the list hon and may not have seen many results recently, but I've been here going on 5 yrs now and many many others have been helped by it as well. (I have hundreds of testimonies I've saved over the years) They get well and usually leave the list and go on with life, others stay to hopefully help like I do. And of course no one thing helps everyone that's for certain or none of us would be here. *sigh* IF ONLY...but it's doing a better job than you suspect.

I gave up on the 'why' of it all, after ten years of futile research and trying everything you can imagine in that time. The list is longer than my arm believe me. It was at that point when I gave up on the 'why' it was there (though I still do constant research daily 7 days a week and have come to the conclusion in a majority of us it 'may' be autoimmune and connected with that 'gene' they talk about, but I only wanted to be made well, get rid of this damn pain and the E cream (and nat. testosterone cream) definitely worked for me and that was 4 yrs ago this month in fact and I'm still here, *smile*. (I can hardly believe that myself, whew) ..

So just my thoughts on it anyway, it's simply used as an aid to hopefully feed and nourish that tissue to bring it back to health, but that's once all diseases and infections have been ruled out as I said (as well as physical like the pelvic floor abnormalities, or even dietary issues or allergies,) but when those things have been ruled out, it's at least an answer to help nourish the tissue meanwhile if it's been damaged and needs restored. But......one must continue to use it as a maintenance (I do twice a week now) to 'keep' things healthy, just as one needs thyroid meds, or insulin for diabetes.

There are just many many things they'll never know the 'why' of it.

Plus as Drs. Ledger, Witkins, Willems and others suggest if it is autoimmune, approx 50% or more will never know the trigger that sets it off, and all we can do is control the symptoms and why an anti-histamine can help or an immunomodulator like the Protopic or Elidel can as well, to either halt the histamine output before hand (with the Protopic) or stop it 'after' they've been released (with the antihistamines.) and then use the E creams for restoration and possibly the T creams for toughening up or strengthening the tissue since it too is for tissue restoration. (more so the E though I think)

As far as the well being and happiness as you said, the myriad of other problems associated with this DD? yes it's true it is more than just the physical there's no doubt about that, talk about the frustration, pain, feeling of hopelessness, despair, depression, relationships broken, and tears shed,.. but if it's the physical alone we're speaking to, it's 'one' thing that just may help and be that key to wellness for others as well.

Just my two cents worth on it anyway.

Dee~

*****END OF MESSAGE*****-------------------------------------------------Yahoo members can click on:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VulvarDisordersOn the left side is a listing including Links andFiles . If you click on those you will find much additional information posted by our members.To post message: VulvarDisorders To Subscribe: VulvarDisorders-subscribe Unsubscribe: VulvarDisorders-unsubscribe List owner: VulvarDisorders-owner *****

[Guest guest]

:-) I didn't mean agree/disagree in the argument sense of the word,

but rather in the " I think chocolate tastes good. Do you agree or

disagree? " sense of the word. It seemed to me there were some things

we agreed on and some we didn't (like I like milk chocolate, but I

HATE dark, ICK! :-) ) and I was just trying to sort out where I was

there. In your particular case, when you are already confident that

internal estrogen use is exacerbating yeast problems (which I can

totally understand), yes, prescribing additional estrogen is pretty

silly. I hope you told the doc right there that you wouldn't take any

more estrogen like that because you were tired of the yeast

infections.

Without going into the details, I think I see we had a

miscommunication - I got the impression that you were saying that

doctors tend to throw creams around willy-nilly without looking at the

whole picture, which I take to be a generalization, and I was focusing

on the caveats to that generalization. I'm glad that you've cleared

up the miscommunication! (Those are always toughies! ;-) ) I will

admit to being personally frustrated at people who give up on the

concept of creams (and local estrogen treatment too) because it failed

to work on it's own, and then are unwilling to try it _in combination_

with other treatments, because I know what a difference there _could_

be - though not necessarily, of course. And that adds to my bias and

why I kept focusing on the caveats, so I apologize for my... excessive

focus on one particular aspect of the conversation. :-)

(As for the chronic emphysema, a bad chronic case is a different story

- and is the same reason they use pred right off the bat for an accute

case of pneumonia or pleuritis. The switch to using inhaled steroids

as opposed to oral as a first line defense - before something has the

opportunity to become chronic - is also relatively new, in the past

5-8 years, I think. And some docs (those who aren't AAAAI,

particularly) haven't quite caught on yet. ;-) And again, I was

focusing on issues more like the asthma - which I should have been

much clearer about. I'm sorry to hear of his loss.)

I'm sorry that you've had these sorts of experiences with your doctor.

Any doctor should listen to their patients well enough to know how

they would react to a suggested treatment (not the body, but whether

or not they'd agree to take it or be skeptical, etc). I hope you've

found a better doctor than the one who wants to push nothing but

estrogen. While I think it has it's value, I think it's just PART of

a " team " , so to speak, regardless of what the other team members are.

I can only imagine how much all that estrogen would be affecting you!

(Maybe you should slip it in your doc's coffee - let him experience

the side effects? ;-) JK!)

As for the Benedryl - just a clarification, 'cause everyone misses

this one - it's the GEL not the CREAM. The cream simply doesn't

absorb well for me in the mucus membrane areas. The gel DOES burn a

bit, but NOTHING in comparison to the rest of the pain. And I had to

take oral antihistamines for months first (10 months, I think) - and

that was a second antihistamine added on top of the three other

regular allergy meds I was on. (Going off the pill significantly

helped my allergies as well.)

I do hope you find something to help with the pain. I'm sorry if I

came across as though I meant to attack you in any way, I did not

intend that at all.

> Well, hon, I'm glad that it's worked for you and for a few

others,and that

> many other have left the list cured. That gives me the kind of hope

I'm

> looking for. But it is indeed ludicrous for a doc to be presented

with my

> history/experience thus far (raging Yeast infection in response to

vaginal

> Estrace and hives and external yeast in response to Nystatin w/zinc

oxide

> and 1% hydrocortizone and intense purple rash in response to

Bethamesone

> Cream ) to THEN prescribe for me an internal estrogen ring and an

external

> estrogen oil!!! In my opinion, that borders on criminal - given

the

> written history in the file and the pain it added to an already

unbearable

> condition. And truly, hon, the fact that I'm new to the list

shouldn't

> negate my experiences so far. I have been suffering with the

condtion for

> almost a year now....and I definitely have some opinions about the

lack of

> medical attention to this disorder, as it pertains to me.

>

> Let's put this in perspective for a moment - none of us (me, you,

)

> is generalizing, we are personalizing . Therefore, in my case, as

in so

> many others from the list - throwing creams at the problem only

worsens it.

> If we could all be cured by using creams, there wouldn't be a

disorder

> called vulvodynia, right?

>

> For the record , my Dad had chronic emphysema- which

eventually

> killed him. He DID take two kinds of oral meds (Prednisone was one

of

> them) long before he ever started on the inhalers. Again, I'm

> personalizing - my information comes from the experiences of my

lifetime .

>

> I think we needn't pursue this any further as it seems to have

developed

> into a battle of sorts. said, " I'm not sure if we are

disagreeing " .

> I'm not posting to the list to argue, I'm posting to vent my

frustrations

> over my own treatment and to find out if other's have had a more

successful

> treatment. It's my opinion that's being offered here - not an

invitation to

> " do battle " (grin). There is really no other motive to my postings

than to

> find an end to this misery - as you have for yours.

>

> A question for - the Benedryl - is it Benedryl Cream that is

applied

> to your skin? If so is it over the counter? I had a purple rash

reaction

> to over the counter Bendryl Cream so if you are getting it made by

> prescription, maybe that's something I can ask my doc about.

>

> Again, please remember that I am posting to the list about my own

> experiences. I am not trying to say that your success with this

type of

> treatment is not a positive thing.......I am only commenting upon my

lack of

> success

>

> Let's play nice (grin)

> Dusty

>

>

[Guest guest]

:-) I didn't mean agree/disagree in the argument sense of the word,

but rather in the " I think chocolate tastes good. Do you agree or

disagree? " sense of the word. It seemed to me there were some things

we agreed on and some we didn't (like I like milk chocolate, but I

HATE dark, ICK! :-) ) and I was just trying to sort out where I was

there. In your particular case, when you are already confident that

internal estrogen use is exacerbating yeast problems (which I can

totally understand), yes, prescribing additional estrogen is pretty

silly. I hope you told the doc right there that you wouldn't take any

more estrogen like that because you were tired of the yeast

infections.

Without going into the details, I think I see we had a

miscommunication - I got the impression that you were saying that

doctors tend to throw creams around willy-nilly without looking at the

whole picture, which I take to be a generalization, and I was focusing

on the caveats to that generalization. I'm glad that you've cleared

up the miscommunication! (Those are always toughies! ;-) ) I will

admit to being personally frustrated at people who give up on the

concept of creams (and local estrogen treatment too) because it failed

to work on it's own, and then are unwilling to try it _in combination_

with other treatments, because I know what a difference there _could_

be - though not necessarily, of course. And that adds to my bias and

why I kept focusing on the caveats, so I apologize for my... excessive

focus on one particular aspect of the conversation. :-)

(As for the chronic emphysema, a bad chronic case is a different story

- and is the same reason they use pred right off the bat for an accute

case of pneumonia or pleuritis. The switch to using inhaled steroids

as opposed to oral as a first line defense - before something has the

opportunity to become chronic - is also relatively new, in the past

5-8 years, I think. And some docs (those who aren't AAAAI,

particularly) haven't quite caught on yet. ;-) And again, I was

focusing on issues more like the asthma - which I should have been

much clearer about. I'm sorry to hear of his loss.)

I'm sorry that you've had these sorts of experiences with your doctor.

Any doctor should listen to their patients well enough to know how

they would react to a suggested treatment (not the body, but whether

or not they'd agree to take it or be skeptical, etc). I hope you've

found a better doctor than the one who wants to push nothing but

estrogen. While I think it has it's value, I think it's just PART of

a " team " , so to speak, regardless of what the other team members are.

I can only imagine how much all that estrogen would be affecting you!

(Maybe you should slip it in your doc's coffee - let him experience

the side effects? ;-) JK!)

As for the Benedryl - just a clarification, 'cause everyone misses

this one - it's the GEL not the CREAM. The cream simply doesn't

absorb well for me in the mucus membrane areas. The gel DOES burn a

bit, but NOTHING in comparison to the rest of the pain. And I had to

take oral antihistamines for months first (10 months, I think) - and

that was a second antihistamine added on top of the three other

regular allergy meds I was on. (Going off the pill significantly

helped my allergies as well.)

I do hope you find something to help with the pain. I'm sorry if I

came across as though I meant to attack you in any way, I did not

intend that at all.

> Well, hon, I'm glad that it's worked for you and for a few

others,and that

> many other have left the list cured. That gives me the kind of hope

I'm

> looking for. But it is indeed ludicrous for a doc to be presented

with my

> history/experience thus far (raging Yeast infection in response to

vaginal

> Estrace and hives and external yeast in response to Nystatin w/zinc

oxide

> and 1% hydrocortizone and intense purple rash in response to

Bethamesone

> Cream ) to THEN prescribe for me an internal estrogen ring and an

external

> estrogen oil!!! In my opinion, that borders on criminal - given

the

> written history in the file and the pain it added to an already

unbearable

> condition. And truly, hon, the fact that I'm new to the list

shouldn't

> negate my experiences so far. I have been suffering with the

condtion for

> almost a year now....and I definitely have some opinions about the

lack of

> medical attention to this disorder, as it pertains to me.

>

> Let's put this in perspective for a moment - none of us (me, you,

)

> is generalizing, we are personalizing . Therefore, in my case, as

in so

> many others from the list - throwing creams at the problem only

worsens it.

> If we could all be cured by using creams, there wouldn't be a

disorder

> called vulvodynia, right?

>

> For the record , my Dad had chronic emphysema- which

eventually

> killed him. He DID take two kinds of oral meds (Prednisone was one

of

> them) long before he ever started on the inhalers. Again, I'm

> personalizing - my information comes from the experiences of my

lifetime .

>

> I think we needn't pursue this any further as it seems to have

developed

> into a battle of sorts. said, " I'm not sure if we are

disagreeing " .

> I'm not posting to the list to argue, I'm posting to vent my

frustrations

> over my own treatment and to find out if other's have had a more

successful

> treatment. It's my opinion that's being offered here - not an

invitation to

> " do battle " (grin). There is really no other motive to my postings

than to

> find an end to this misery - as you have for yours.

>

> A question for - the Benedryl - is it Benedryl Cream that is

applied

> to your skin? If so is it over the counter? I had a purple rash

reaction

> to over the counter Bendryl Cream so if you are getting it made by

> prescription, maybe that's something I can ask my doc about.

>

> Again, please remember that I am posting to the list about my own

> experiences. I am not trying to say that your success with this

type of

> treatment is not a positive thing.......I am only commenting upon my

lack of

> success

>

> Let's play nice (grin)

> Dusty

>

>

[Guest guest]

Must confess, I was feeling a bit backed up against the wall.... but all's

well now and I do understand your need to get the info out there that for

some people this plan will work. I can be a bit strident when frustrated -

so I'm sorry for any overbearing remarks.

Yes, I outright refused to insert the ring, but I did use the Estrogen in

Vitamin E Oil because I believed the doc when he said it wouldn't hurt me

because the base was Vitamin E and did not contain any prop. glycol! Well,

surprise - I ended up with hives over the vulva and down the inner thigh.

What a downer - I was all ready to get well. It makes me wonder if I'm

allergic to the estrogen itself?

I'm due to go back to the doc's on 22nd. I am going to ask about the

Benedryl Gel, which I am assuming has no Prop. glycol, yes? The vulvar

biopsy revealed " chronic non-specific inflammation " of the vulvar tissue -

so maybe the gel will help. I have been taking Claritin since my regular

GYN saw the purple rash from the Bethamesone and told me that I was having

an allergic reaction to something in that area. The Claritin has, I think,

reduced the pain somewhat - but I might give oral Benedryl a try too.

I'd be maybe willing to try a surface cream or gel of estrogen if I could

get past the allergic reactions, but I will never again insert any. The

magnitude of that infection was awesome.

This vulvodynia thing, along with the menopause thing is certainly

interesting, to say the least.

Thanks for your help

Dusty

Re: Vaginal PH DTROLL and TIFFANY

:-) I didn't mean agree/disagree in the argument sense of the word,

but rather in the " I think chocolate tastes good. Do you agree or

disagree? " sense of the word. It seemed to me there were some things

we agreed on and some we didn't (like I like milk chocolate, but I

HATE dark, ICK! :-) ) and I was just trying to sort out where I was

there. In your particular case, when you are already confident that

internal estrogen use is exacerbating yeast problems (which I can

totally understand), yes, prescribing additional estrogen is pretty

silly. I hope you told the doc right there that you wouldn't take any

more estrogen like that because you were tired of the yeast

infections.

Without going into the details, I think I see we had a

miscommunication - I got the impression that you were saying that

doctors tend to throw creams around willy-nilly without looking at the

whole picture, which I take to be a generalization, and I was focusing

on the caveats to that generalization. I'm glad that you've cleared

up the miscommunication! (Those are always toughies! ;-) ) I will

admit to being personally frustrated at people who give up on the

concept of creams (and local estrogen treatment too) because it failed

to work on it's own, and then are unwilling to try it _in combination_

with other treatments, because I know what a difference there _could_

be - though not necessarily, of course. And that adds to my bias and

why I kept focusing on the caveats, so I apologize for my... excessive

focus on one particular aspect of the conversation. :-)

(As for the chronic emphysema, a bad chronic case is a different story

- and is the same reason they use pred right off the bat for an accute

case of pneumonia or pleuritis. The switch to using inhaled steroids

as opposed to oral as a first line defense - before something has the

opportunity to become chronic - is also relatively new, in the past

5-8 years, I think. And some docs (those who aren't AAAAI,

particularly) haven't quite caught on yet. ;-) And again, I was

focusing on issues more like the asthma - which I should have been

much clearer about. I'm sorry to hear of his loss.)

I'm sorry that you've had these sorts of experiences with your doctor.

Any doctor should listen to their patients well enough to know how

they would react to a suggested treatment (not the body, but whether

or not they'd agree to take it or be skeptical, etc). I hope you've

found a better doctor than the one who wants to push nothing but

estrogen. While I think it has it's value, I think it's just PART of

a " team " , so to speak, regardless of what the other team members are.

I can only imagine how much all that estrogen would be affecting you!

(Maybe you should slip it in your doc's coffee - let him experience

the side effects? ;-) JK!)

As for the Benedryl - just a clarification, 'cause everyone misses

this one - it's the GEL not the CREAM. The cream simply doesn't

absorb well for me in the mucus membrane areas. The gel DOES burn a

bit, but NOTHING in comparison to the rest of the pain. And I had to

take oral antihistamines for months first (10 months, I think) - and

that was a second antihistamine added on top of the three other

regular allergy meds I was on. (Going off the pill significantly

helped my allergies as well.)

I do hope you find something to help with the pain. I'm sorry if I

came across as though I meant to attack you in any way, I did not

intend that at all.

> Well, hon, I'm glad that it's worked for you and for a few

others,and that

> many other have left the list cured. That gives me the kind of hope

I'm

> looking for. But it is indeed ludicrous for a doc to be presented

with my

> history/experience thus far (raging Yeast infection in response to

vaginal

> Estrace and hives and external yeast in response to Nystatin w/zinc

oxide

> and 1% hydrocortizone and intense purple rash in response to

Bethamesone

> Cream ) to THEN prescribe for me an internal estrogen ring and an

external

> estrogen oil!!! In my opinion, that borders on criminal - given

the

> written history in the file and the pain it added to an already

unbearable

> condition. And truly, hon, the fact that I'm new to the list

shouldn't

> negate my experiences so far. I have been suffering with the

condtion for

> almost a year now....and I definitely have some opinions about the

lack of

> medical attention to this disorder, as it pertains to me.

>

> Let's put this in perspective for a moment - none of us (me, you,

)

> is generalizing, we are personalizing . Therefore, in my case, as

in so

> many others from the list - throwing creams at the problem only

worsens it.

> If we could all be cured by using creams, there wouldn't be a

disorder

> called vulvodynia, right?

>

> For the record , my Dad had chronic emphysema- which

eventually

> killed him. He DID take two kinds of oral meds (Prednisone was one

of

> them) long before he ever started on the inhalers. Again, I'm

> personalizing - my information comes from the experiences of my

lifetime .

>

> I think we needn't pursue this any further as it seems to have

developed

> into a battle of sorts. said, " I'm not sure if we are

disagreeing " .

> I'm not posting to the list to argue, I'm posting to vent my

frustrations

> over my own treatment and to find out if other's have had a more

successful

> treatment. It's my opinion that's being offered here - not an

invitation to

> " do battle " (grin). There is really no other motive to my postings

than to

> find an end to this misery - as you have for yours.

>

> A question for - the Benedryl - is it Benedryl Cream that is

applied

> to your skin? If so is it over the counter? I had a purple rash

reaction

> to over the counter Bendryl Cream so if you are getting it made by

> prescription, maybe that's something I can ask my doc about.

>

> Again, please remember that I am posting to the list about my own

> experiences. I am not trying to say that your success with this

type of

> treatment is not a positive thing.......I am only commenting upon my

lack of

> success

>

> Let's play nice (grin)

> Dusty

>

>

*****END OF MESSAGE*****

-------------------------------------------------

Yahoo members can click on:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VulvarDisorders

On the left side is a listing including Links and

Files . If you click on those you will find much additional

information posted by our members.

To post message: VulvarDisorders

To Subscribe: VulvarDisorders-subscribe

Unsubscribe: VulvarDisorders-unsubscribe

List owner: VulvarDisorders-owner

*****

[Guest guest]

Some people are allergic to Vitamin E Oil. It really does a number on me.

Ora

>Must confess, I was feeling a bit backed up against the wall.... but all's

>well now and I do understand your need to get the info out there that for

>some people this plan will work. I can be a bit strident when frustrated -

>so I'm sorry for any overbearing remarks.

>

>Yes, I outright refused to insert the ring, but I did use the Estrogen in

>Vitamin E Oil because I believed the doc when he said it wouldn't hurt me

>because the base was Vitamin E and did not contain any prop. glycol! Well,

>surprise - I ended up with hives over the vulva and down the inner thigh.

>What a downer - I was all ready to get well. It makes me wonder if I'm

>allergic to the estrogen itself?

>

>I'm due to go back to the doc's on 22nd. I am going to ask about the

>Benedryl Gel, which I am assuming has no Prop. glycol, yes? The vulvar

>biopsy revealed " chronic non-specific inflammation " of the vulvar tissue -

>so maybe the gel will help. I have been taking Claritin since my regular

>GYN saw the purple rash from the Bethamesone and told me that I was having

>an allergic reaction to something in that area. The Claritin has, I think,

>reduced the pain somewhat - but I might give oral Benedryl a try too.

>

>I'd be maybe willing to try a surface cream or gel of estrogen if I could

>get past the allergic reactions, but I will never again insert any. The

>magnitude of that infection was awesome.

>

>This vulvodynia thing, along with the menopause thing is certainly

>interesting, to say the least.

>

>Thanks for your help

>Dusty

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: Vaginal PH DTROLL and TIFFANY

>

>

>:-) I didn't mean agree/disagree in the argument sense of the word,

>but rather in the " I think chocolate tastes good. Do you agree or

>disagree? " sense of the word. It seemed to me there were some things

>we agreed on and some we didn't (like I like milk chocolate, but I

>HATE dark, ICK! :-) ) and I was just trying to sort out where I was

>there. In your particular case, when you are already confident that

>internal estrogen use is exacerbating yeast problems (which I can

>totally understand), yes, prescribing additional estrogen is pretty

>silly. I hope you told the doc right there that you wouldn't take any

>more estrogen like that because you were tired of the yeast

>infections.

>

>Without going into the details, I think I see we had a

>miscommunication - I got the impression that you were saying that

>doctors tend to throw creams around willy-nilly without looking at the

>whole picture, which I take to be a generalization, and I was focusing

>on the caveats to that generalization. I'm glad that you've cleared

>up the miscommunication! (Those are always toughies! ;-) ) I will

>admit to being personally frustrated at people who give up on the

>concept of creams (and local estrogen treatment too) because it failed

>to work on it's own, and then are unwilling to try it _in combination_

>with other treatments, because I know what a difference there _could_

>be - though not necessarily, of course. And that adds to my bias and

>why I kept focusing on the caveats, so I apologize for my... excessive

>focus on one particular aspect of the conversation. :-)

>

>(As for the chronic emphysema, a bad chronic case is a different story

>- and is the same reason they use pred right off the bat for an accute

>case of pneumonia or pleuritis. The switch to using inhaled steroids

>as opposed to oral as a first line defense - before something has the

>opportunity to become chronic - is also relatively new, in the past

>5-8 years, I think. And some docs (those who aren't AAAAI,

>particularly) haven't quite caught on yet. ;-) And again, I was

>focusing on issues more like the asthma - which I should have been

>much clearer about. I'm sorry to hear of his loss.)

>

>I'm sorry that you've had these sorts of experiences with your doctor.

> Any doctor should listen to their patients well enough to know how

>they would react to a suggested treatment (not the body, but whether

>or not they'd agree to take it or be skeptical, etc). I hope you've

>found a better doctor than the one who wants to push nothing but

>estrogen. While I think it has it's value, I think it's just PART of

>a " team " , so to speak, regardless of what the other team members are.

>I can only imagine how much all that estrogen would be affecting you!

>(Maybe you should slip it in your doc's coffee - let him experience

>the side effects? ;-) JK!)

>

>As for the Benedryl - just a clarification, 'cause everyone misses

>this one - it's the GEL not the CREAM. The cream simply doesn't

>absorb well for me in the mucus membrane areas. The gel DOES burn a

>bit, but NOTHING in comparison to the rest of the pain. And I had to

>take oral antihistamines for months first (10 months, I think) - and

>that was a second antihistamine added on top of the three other

>regular allergy meds I was on. (Going off the pill significantly

>helped my allergies as well.)

>

>I do hope you find something to help with the pain. I'm sorry if I

>came across as though I meant to attack you in any way, I did not

>intend that at all.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>> Well, hon, I'm glad that it's worked for you and for a few

>others,and that

>> many other have left the list cured. That gives me the kind of hope

>I'm

>> looking for. But it is indeed ludicrous for a doc to be presented

>with my

>> history/experience thus far (raging Yeast infection in response to

>vaginal

>> Estrace and hives and external yeast in response to Nystatin w/zinc

>oxide

>> and 1% hydrocortizone and intense purple rash in response to

>Bethamesone

>> Cream ) to THEN prescribe for me an internal estrogen ring and an

>external

>> estrogen oil!!! In my opinion, that borders on criminal - given

>the

>> written history in the file and the pain it added to an already

>unbearable

>> condition. And truly, hon, the fact that I'm new to the list

>shouldn't

>> negate my experiences so far. I have been suffering with the

>condtion for

>> almost a year now....and I definitely have some opinions about the

>lack of

>> medical attention to this disorder, as it pertains to me.

>>

>> Let's put this in perspective for a moment - none of us (me, you,

>)

>> is generalizing, we are personalizing . Therefore, in my case, as

>in so

>> many others from the list - throwing creams at the problem only

>worsens it.

>> If we could all be cured by using creams, there wouldn't be a

>disorder

>> called vulvodynia, right?

>>

>> For the record , my Dad had chronic emphysema- which

>eventually

>> killed him. He DID take two kinds of oral meds (Prednisone was one

>of

>> them) long before he ever started on the inhalers. Again, I'm

>> personalizing - my information comes from the experiences of my

>lifetime .

>>

>> I think we needn't pursue this any further as it seems to have

>developed

>> into a battle of sorts. said, " I'm not sure if we are

>disagreeing " .

>> I'm not posting to the list to argue, I'm posting to vent my

>frustrations

>> over my own treatment and to find out if other's have had a more

>successful

>> treatment. It's my opinion that's being offered here - not an

>invitation to

>> " do battle " (grin). There is really no other motive to my postings

>than to

>> find an end to this misery - as you have for yours.

>>

>> A question for - the Benedryl - is it Benedryl Cream that is

>applied

>> to your skin? If so is it over the counter? I had a purple rash

>reaction

>> to over the counter Bendryl Cream so if you are getting it made by

>> prescription, maybe that's something I can ask my doc about.

>>

>> Again, please remember that I am posting to the list about my own

>> experiences. I am not trying to say that your success with this

>type of

>> treatment is not a positive thing.......I am only commenting upon my

>lack of

>> success

>>

>> Let's play nice (grin)

>> Dusty

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

>*****END OF MESSAGE*****

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[Guest guest]

Thanks Ora

For reminding us about that last hormone withdrawal study from the WHO. Indeed it was the combination of estrogen 'and' a progestin, (PremPro) that was withdrawn and the estrogen arm of that study is still on going.

Dee~

[Guest guest]

Hi Dusty, Right now I am taking oral estrogen, using the estring

and testosterone cream and trying a progesterone cream. I have not

been using progesterone of any kind for a couple of months because I

am having a hard time finding one I can tolerate. This is not a

good solution as estrogen taken alone increases risk of uterine

cancer. I just started the propesterone today so we will see what

happens.

> Do you then take oral estrogen, topical estrogen and topical

testosterone,

> with no form of progesterone?

>

> Dusty

>

> Re: Vaginal PH DTROLL and TIFFANY

>

>

> Hi Dusty and all, whew, I am almost afraid to jump into this

> discussion but thought I might have a few things to add. It is

> possible that you are actually allergic to the estrogen. This

> sounds really crazy but there are women who are and you can be

> tested for it if you go to the right place. My old Dr. said it was

> impossible to be allergic to something your own body makes but I

> reminded her that diabeties and arthritis are autoimmune diseases.

I

> was convinced that I was allergic to progesterone as it gave me IBS

> and yeast infections. For me it seems progesterone cause yeast and

> estrogen prevents it. Some people say it is the imbalance of the 2

> hormones rather than one or the other that encourages the yeast. I

> was taking estrogen orally but was still having problems with yeast

> and VV. (My current Doc says I have " classic vulvar vestibulitis "

> diagnosed by the Q-tip test) I experience a lot of itching and

> burning. My previous Doc had suggested I use the Estring as perhaps

> not enough of the oral estrogen was getting to vulvar tissue. (I am

> menopausal)This could have been because the vulvar tissues were not

> receptive to the estrogen(there is a scientific explination to this

> which I cannot remember. ) Or that enough of the estrogen was

being

> absorbes by my intestines to stop hot flashes etc but not enough to

> stop vulvar problems. --- In my case very possible as I suffer

from

> IBS. Anyway, the Estring worked like magic. After a week or two

my

> vulvar tissues were plumper, pinker, and a lot less burny and

> itchy. The amount of vaginal lubrication also increased which

> helped with intercourse. After 3 years of talking, I finally got

my

> previous Doc to give me testosterone cream. I had been trying to

> convince her since reading of Dees success with it. It helped

almost

> immediately to get rid of the rest of the itching. At that point

my

> VV was about 90% ok, 90% of the time. The rest of my problems

have

> been helped by treating multiple allergies. Since you mention you

> have many allergies this might be something you want to address.

> Though many things I have tried treat the yeast and the VV, I

> wanted to get rid of it. I think I finally have. I encourage you

> to think beyond the hormone thing, for me it was only part of the

> picture.

[Guest guest]

Lynn,

Thanks for expanding on my estrogen/progesterone comments. For the most

part I could have written your message. I seem to react to both the same way

you do. But I am not overweight so do not put to much faith on this being a

major part of your problems. As for plant based estrogens, I used soy pills

for a year. This did improve my vulvar symtoms (mostly pain after sex and

some irritation at other times) significantly. But the problems did not go

away completely. It took getting off of birth control pills and using

estrace cream to make it go away. But you might give soy a try. I tried

Ovcon 35 last summer. I took it 4 days before giving up. (If I recall

correctly it was mainly abdominal pain that did it in - these side effects

run together after a while).

Then again I did not have constant burning so although we may both have the

same reactions to the hormones we may not have the same vulvar problem.

I hope you find something that helps.

Marilyn A.

Re: Vaginal PH DTROLL and TIFFANY

> >But otherwise the estrogen makes me feel great. I have had my

> >levels tested and know I need the estrogen, but I cannot figure out

> >how to get it without the side effects. It is aggravating when no

> >one addresses this specific problem.

> >For your info I have determined that when I add progesterone it

> >reduces the discharge. But progesterone makes me feel terrible and

> >causes other problems - like low libido, etc.

> >Welcome to the group.

> >Hang in there.

> >Marilyn

>

> Ditto for me! When I take oral or patch estrogen (Bi-Est or Climara

> both are " natural " or " biodentical " estrogens even) I feel better

> with less palpatations, better sleep BUT I also get mirgraines, back

> spasms, breats hurt, yeast. I even got yeast with Estriol Cream,

> Estrace and Bi-Est as a cream.

>

> I have read most doctors believe that progesterone is the cause of

> yeast infections but then there are more that say estrogen does it.

> I have never gotten a yeast infection from progesterone BUT I do get

> fatigue, sleepy, depressed and libido problems.

>

> Without the hormones I feel totally awful with night sweats, erratic

> periods....a giant list of compaints. With estrogen I feel great but

> have side effects I can not tolerate. With progesterone I get relief

> of something things but then I am a zombie.

>

> Two very different points of view would be Dr. Vliet

> in " Screaming to be Heard " and Dr. Lee in " What Your Doctor May

> Not Tell You About Menopause " and " What Your Doctor May Not Tell You

> About PREmenopause " . Vliet is all for Estradiol and Lee is for

> Natural Progesterone Cream. Reading their books is amazing. They

> say the same things BUT blame the OTHER hormone. Vliet says yeast is

> from progesterone and Lee says it is estrogen.

>

> Who do you believe?????

>

> I just want to find a way to balance my hormones without adding MORE

> misery to the pot. I just got over a yeast infection from Estriol

> Cream and was given Diflucan. My MD also gave me Ovcon 35 to try to

> balance my hormones. I won't try those until next month. I am afraid

> of the side effects from that as well.

>

> I truely believe that whatever gives a person yeast...gives them

> yeast...be it estrogen or progesterone or a combo. Since we all have

> different bodies...we will all react differently. I know tons of

> women who drink diet sodas and have no problem. YET, I can not drink

> diet sodas because Aspartame gives me HORRIBLE headaches and bladder

> infections. Why me???? I have no clue. My genetics? My chemical

> makeup? One size does not fit all I guess.

>

> I am thinking that I might just have to resort to Black Cohosh and

> Vitex for my hormone balance if the birth control pills cause me

> issues. I really don't want to go around with breasts that hurt so

> bad I can't even bend over!! Alesse did that to me and the Ovcon has

> even more estrogen in it. I also worry about blood clots, high blood

> pressure using Ovcon and the fact that I am overweight. They say

> being obese is a reason to NOT use b/c pills for hormone regulation.

> I just want to stop burning...and be normal again. I want to get

> back to exercising to I can drop this weight and stop being a " sick "

> person.

>

> Ok..my pity party is over...thanks for coming!

>

> Lynn

>

>

>

> *****END OF MESSAGE*****

> -------------------------------------------------

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