Re: OT thoughts about natural versus synthetic

[Guest guest]

I've had a wonderment...

We all know that the symptoms that each of us expresses as someone that

is hypo is very different from person to person. It has to do with

lifestyle, genetics, age, gender, had children, didn't have children...

on and on and on...

Now.. say that those folks that seem to do well on T4 are those folks

that are expressing symptoms that are very much relieved with higher

levels of T4 regardless of TSH or T3?

What if other folks actually need proper balances and levels of the 'big

three' (TSH, Free T4, and Free T3) What if these are the folks that won't

do well without that....?

Now what if that group that needs the balance is broken down into two

groups.. one group is great at converting.... the other group is not...

the good converters just get along great.. the bad converters are still

having trouble....

Now with all that in mind.... How much is the damaged that was caused by

little or no treatment for an extended period of time for years past

going to effect how soon, or to what extent, the symptoms will subside?

So many variables... and we've seen alot of this going on in just a few

hundred folks... and even so... the group of people that these

observations are made on are only those that were determined that their

life could be better if they could only find, understand and apply the

facts surrounding thyroid disorders.

I think back to the years that I was on Synthroid and how my life

spiraled down... I lost my home, and everything I owned. I was downsized

from a very good job, I even got skipped over 5 times when they were

laying off by seniority, I was needed... but eventually the division was

closed down... but I was different. I didn't have it in me to go out and

find another job that I had to fight my way up in. I settled... that job

closed down... same with the next three after that... each job that I got

was not as good as the last, was less physical, was less responsible, was

less stressful... and paid less. Because my physical self was so much

less than it was in years passed, I didn't even dare to bring up past

kudos in interviews because I would not be able to repeat those tasks, I

was not physically able... and if you make the mistake of saying that you

have a thyroid disorder... the job is suddenly filled... they don't want

their insurance rates to go up....

I went on one interview with crutches... I had put a huge bandage and

claimed a sprain.... I still didn't get the job. It was a sit down

job...

I'm getting off on a tangent.. .my point is that being hypo and on bad

meds (under dosed, wrong type or no meds) decreases the quality of your

life - for some it happens quickly.. for some their life is stable and

they are able to make do.. for some of us our whole lives change....

I just can't get it through my thick female hypochondriac brain why we

can't be properly diagnosed and treated in a timely manner before we

suffer years of H*LL and end up losing ourselves and becoming different

people due to the damage that our bodies endure to what, in my opinion,

is negligence and malpractice...

End of rant... I'm sorry.. but it kinda just came out....

Topper ()

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:00:01 -0000 " loboshe " writes:

> > Actually, for many, many patients, synthetic T4 alone DOES work, it

> >is only us poorly little piglets that need the extra that Armour

> >offers.

> I have long ago come to the strong conclusion that for many, many

> T4-

> only patients, synthetic T4 does NOT work. For every single person I

> have ever met or interviewed or chatted with, folks on T4 have

> lingering symptoms related to being on T4 only.

> Sure, getting on T4 has helped folks! It brings back some of that

> lost energy. But I have YET to find anyone who does NOT have

> symptoms

> related to being on T4-only meds---whether those symptoms are

> lingering chronic low-grade depression,

> or

> lingering dry skin,

> or

> lingering energy issues,

> or

> lingering high cholesterol,

> or

> lingering coldness

> or

> lingering numerous issues.

>

> Now me---I was certainly an example on the EXTREME end where T4-only

> meds do not work. I only see a few folks who were that extremely bad.

> But I think the vast majority (if not all) carry problems they don't

> relate to being on T4 meds.

> There is a gal across the street on T4-only meds. She read my handout

> (my store is across the street, and it is also the headquarters of my

> thyroid advocacy). She came back over and said " I'm doing great on

> Synthroid " . I believe her. I believe she feels she is going great. I

> just don't believe she is doing as well as she would on Armour or

> natural thyroid products.

> My sister-in-law is on Synthroid. She does appear to be doing great

> when it comes to energy and no depression. But she has high

> cholesterol---makes me wonder....

> There used to be a gal on this site who was on T4-only meds. Her labs

> showed her T3 right in the middle. Now THAT is amazing for someone

> on T4-only meds. I was impressed!! But.....she has constant weight

> issues, constant itching, constant immune system problems.....makes

> me wonder....

>

> Janie

[Guest guest]

Hi, ,

My friend, your " rant " is valid because nothing written in it is

untruthful. Think about that for a moment!

Like you, I had a pretty good life before the Thyroid problems

finally pulled me into the hole and the ground tried to close over

me. Thankfully, I have a husband who was unwilling to let me go.... I

offered to agree to a divorce so that he could have a life without me. He

refused and encouraged me to get whatever help I needed to get, even

helping me do the research.

I was tested and found to be Hypothyroid when I was 19 years

old. Treatment was started, but was stopped due to another illness. BTW,

nobody told me that Thyroid problems were " forever " ... I didn't pursue

treatment because I really was not feeling all that bad... Just a bit

slowed down for some unknown reason... That was in 1966.

Fast forward to 1973 when I first visited a psychiatrist for what

the family practice doctor told me was " depression " . His diagnosis was

" Angry, frustrated woman! " . What the heck did that mean and how does one

treat it? Nothing was done.

Fast forward again to 1981 when I again sought help from a

psychiatrist. A massive number of lab tests were done. The Thyroid panel

showed a " low functioning " Thyroid, but no treatment was recommended and

none given.

Slip forward to 1983 when I was first admitted to a psych unit for

" suicidal ideation " and what was diagnosed as " Bi-polar Disorder " . The

hospital is required to perform a complete physical examination within 24

hours of admission, so all of the lab tests were done, an EEG was done,

x-rays, etc. The only seemingly abnormal result was in my Thyroid

function, which was termed, " low functioning " . From 1981 to 1984, I was

taking Lithium in one form or another.

Since I was admitted on five additional occasions, the same tests

showed the same results, but here is the rub.... When I was admitted the

last time, I was already taking 2.25 of Synthroid and the lab tests still

came back " low functioning Thyroid " . The prescribed amount of Synthroid

was not increased at that time, but was changed two months after I returned

home. At that time, my " mood stabilizer " medication was changed from

Lithium to Depakote with Dilantin. I felt worse physically and mentally on

that combination, but the doctor would not change it...I stopped all of the

psych meds in 1996 because they were not helping. My psychiatrist was

changed. The new one did not think that Bi-polar was the problem. After

numerous interviews and testing, he concluded that I was depressed and had

ADD, Inattentive Type, along with " Generalized Anxiety

Disorder " . Nevertheless, I was feeling better than I had for many

years. His conclusion was that my defiance over the " mood stabilizers " and

other medications was correct and that stopping them was the best thing

that I could have done.

Fast forward again to 1999 when after changing my synthetic

Thyroid hormone dose all the way up to 2.75, my labs still showed that my

TSH was too high. At that point, I protested to the doctor that I wanted

to try Armour on a 30-day trial. He reluctantly agreed to write the

scrip. Within two weeks the depression had lifted! I didn't feel bad

physically, but neither did I feel well...

Skip forward to today. I still do not feel completely well, but I

feel much better than I have for years!

Here is some news. I am finally regrowing underarm hair! I

actually had to shave this week! Yee Haw! There is hair growing in other

places that had lost their hair, too! My eyebrows actually need to be

waxed or plucked now and then. It would appear that after all of this time

that my body is trying to do a slow recovery thing back to something closer

to " normal " . I am doing a conservative happy dance...

I agree with your " rant " 100%! God only knows what sort of damage

has been done to us due to inadequate treatment or treatment with the wrong

medications. Can something be done about it? It is doubtful that any kind

of monetary solution would be found; however, that does not mean that we

cannot continue to seek the kind of medical help we want and need.

Dianne

At 02:30 PM 4/22/04, you wrote:

>I've had a wonderment...

>

>We all know that the symptoms that each of us expresses as someone that

>is hypo is very different from person to person. It has to do with

>lifestyle, genetics, age, gender, had children, didn't have children...

>on and on and on...

>

>Now.. say that those folks that seem to do well on T4 are those folks

>that are expressing symptoms that are very much relieved with higher

>levels of T4 regardless of TSH or T3?

>

>What if other folks actually need proper balances and levels of the 'big

>three' (TSH, Free T4, and Free T3) What if these are the folks that won't

>do well without that....?

>

>Now what if that group that needs the balance is broken down into two

>groups.. one group is great at converting.... the other group is not...

>the good converters just get along great.. the bad converters are still

>having trouble....

>

>Now with all that in mind.... How much is the damaged that was caused by

>little or no treatment for an extended period of time for years past

>going to effect how soon, or to what extent, the symptoms will subside?

>

>So many variables... and we've seen alot of this going on in just a few

>hundred folks... and even so... the group of people that these

>observations are made on are only those that were determined that their

>life could be better if they could only find, understand and apply the

>facts surrounding thyroid disorders.

>

>I think back to the years that I was on Synthroid and how my life

>spiraled down... I lost my home, and everything I owned. I was downsized

>from a very good job, I even got skipped over 5 times when they were

>laying off by seniority, I was needed... but eventually the division was

>closed down... but I was different. I didn't have it in me to go out and

>find another job that I had to fight my way up in. I settled... that job

>closed down... same with the next three after that... each job that I got

>was not as good as the last, was less physical, was less responsible, was

>less stressful... and paid less. Because my physical self was so much

>less than it was in years passed, I didn't even dare to bring up past

>kudos in interviews because I would not be able to repeat those tasks, I

>was not physically able... and if you make the mistake of saying that you

>have a thyroid disorder... the job is suddenly filled... they don't want

>their insurance rates to go up....

>

>I went on one interview with crutches... I had put a huge bandage and

>claimed a sprain.... I still didn't get the job. It was a sit down

>job...

>

>I'm getting off on a tangent.. .my point is that being hypo and on bad

>meds (under dosed, wrong type or no meds) decreases the quality of your

>life - for some it happens quickly.. for some their life is stable and

>they are able to make do.. for some of us our whole lives change....

>

>I just can't get it through my thick female hypochondriac brain why we

>can't be properly diagnosed and treated in a timely manner before we

>suffer years of H*LL and end up losing ourselves and becoming different

>people due to the damage that our bodies endure to what, in my opinion,

>is negligence and malpractice...

>

>End of rant... I'm sorry.. but it kinda just came out....

>

>Topper ()

>

>On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 17:00:01 -0000 " loboshe " writes:

> > > Actually, for many, many patients, synthetic T4 alone DOES work, it

> > >is only us poorly little piglets that need the extra that Armour

> > >offers.

> > I have long ago come to the strong conclusion that for many, many

> > T4-

> > only patients, synthetic T4 does NOT work. For every single person I

> > have ever met or interviewed or chatted with, folks on T4 have

> > lingering symptoms related to being on T4 only.

> > Sure, getting on T4 has helped folks! It brings back some of that

> > lost energy. But I have YET to find anyone who does NOT have

> > symptoms

> > related to being on T4-only meds---whether those symptoms are

> > lingering chronic low-grade depression,

> > or

> > lingering dry skin,

> > or

> > lingering energy issues,

> > or

> > lingering high cholesterol,

> > or

> > lingering coldness

> > or

> > lingering numerous issues.

> >

> > Now me---I was certainly an example on the EXTREME end where T4-only

> > meds do not work. I only see a few folks who were that extremely bad.

> > But I think the vast majority (if not all) carry problems they don't

> > relate to being on T4 meds.

> > There is a gal across the street on T4-only meds. She read my handout

> > (my store is across the street, and it is also the headquarters of my

> > thyroid advocacy). She came back over and said " I'm doing great on

> > Synthroid " . I believe her. I believe she feels she is going great. I

> > just don't believe she is doing as well as she would on Armour or

> > natural thyroid products.

> > My sister-in-law is on Synthroid. She does appear to be doing great

> > when it comes to energy and no depression. But she has high

> > cholesterol---makes me wonder....

> > There used to be a gal on this site who was on T4-only meds. Her labs

> > showed her T3 right in the middle. Now THAT is amazing for someone

> > on T4-only meds. I was impressed!! But.....she has constant weight

> > issues, constant itching, constant immune system problems.....makes

> > me wonder....

> >

> > Janie

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I tried to go after the doc that told me that I was normal, needed to

lose weight, and 'too fat to be sick' (the words he put in my chart) for

his negligence, failure to even test me (even though his notes in my

chart showed that he recognized that I had classic, text book symptoms of

hyperthyroidism) and his sending me home with the comment that I was

lucky to finally be able to lose weight (I was a body builder with a BMI

of 21% - for my age bracket anything under 21% was considered underweight

- I had held that condition for five years, I'd been lifting for nearly

8) I'd come in for excessive weight loss, 40 pounds in 30 days, excessive

thirst an unusual hunger. I also had severe, drop to your knees,

headaches if I skipped a meal, that immediately went away when I ate. His

solution for that was a pain medication that I was to take several times

a day, with an aspirin.... the warning on the bottle said not to drive or

operate heavy machinery while taking the medication. At the time I was a

truck driver, on the road 10 or more hours a day....

All I knew, a the time, was something was VERY wrong but I didn't know

what... the doc said I needed to lose weight and it was basically my

imagination. The first time I'd ever gone into the doc for something that

I did not know.. and I was totally blown off.....

This state said that I couldn't touch him, all he'd have to do is file

bankruptcy and he'd be off scott free... the AMA (I think that's who it

was) said that the best I could do was to have his licence pulled.. but

that he'd probably get one in another state. Everybody I contacted was

told that I sought no money for what had been done to me... that I only

sought guaranteed medical care so that I would not need to worry about

loss of job and insurance and would be able to continue getting medical

testing and prescriptions.... they didn't care... and when that job did

close (the division of the company was closed) I was left with no

insurance and no medication... Until I found another job....

Every doctor I saw after the endo that first treatment me after my RAI

was a dork (I'm choosing the nice word, that is not the one that I use

privately). I was told that I was irresponsible, a hypochondriac, getting

older, having female problems, expecting too much, unrealistic, a smart

ass, and the gem.... stupid. I was told that I was gaining weight because

of my being lazy and irresponsible, that I was over eating, that I didn't

realize that as I age my metabolism slows and I have to learn to eat like

an adult and not a teen ager. When the PF hit I was told that was a

physical injury due to my being so fat. One doc would only give me 30 day

prescriptions 'because it's the only way to get someone as irresponsible

as you to come back for labs' this is the same doc that increased my 200

mcg dosage to 200 mcg... and called me a smartass for saying that it

can't be an increase if I'm already taking 200 mcg!

We all have horror stories about docs that were so blind and so ignorant.

It's not a matter of not understanding thyroid disorders... it's a matter

of them not listening to the patient when the patient says that something

is wrong and we need to find out what..... It's not in our heads, d***

it! It's real, it's horrible and it needs to be dealt with.. not brushed

aside as female weakness or hypochondria....

Yes people age, yes our bodies change over time... but to be able to look

at two pictures of the same person taken only two years apart and wonder

if those two folks are cousins or something.... is not right... I don't

even have the same hair color anymore.

Arrggghhhhhh... I am really ranting today... I want my life back.. I want

a home again... I even lost my house over all of this crap... And that is

not labeled as a result of my inability to get good jobs (I'm no longer

able to do the type of job that I used to).. it's labeled as my being

lazy and irresponsible... My family considers me a bum.

Okay... enough for today... I have to finish prepping to go on a service

call.. the 'bum' is a computer tech that is servicing a system on site..

then tutoring for a few hours.. and when we finish all of that I'll be

taking them to the kitchen and we're going to be talking about nutrition

and mini meal prep... One of them had a quadruple by-pass and two

strokes, the other has lung cancer... and both have asked me to help them

to be more responsible with their nutrition and eating.... Yep.. this

'bum' is being called on as a consultant on multiple platforms.... AND

one of these folks used to be my boss... we continue a friendship even

after the company that we worked for filed bankruptcy and we lost our

jobs.... I sure am a bum, huh? A former boss even values me enough to

hire me privately for my skills.

now, if only family could see with that same view point....

As for the regrowth of hair... a sign of better balance of hormones and

health.... I'm also giving lessons in braiding leg hair, thanks to Jamy's

encouragement, french braids my specialty! hehehehehehe

Topper ()

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 01:20:21 -0700 Dianne writes:

> Hi, ,

>

> My friend, your " rant " is valid because nothing written in

> it is

> untruthful. Think about that for a moment!

>

> Like you, I had a pretty good life before the Thyroid

> problems

> finally pulled me into the hole and the ground tried to close over

> me. Thankfully, I have a husband who was unwilling to let me go....

> I

> offered to agree to a divorce so that he could have a life without

> me. He

> refused and encouraged me to get whatever help I needed to get, even

> helping me do the research.

>

> I was tested and found to be Hypothyroid when I was 19

> years

> old. Treatment was started, but was stopped due to another illness.

> BTW,

> nobody told me that Thyroid problems were " forever " ... I didn't

> pursue

> treatment because I really was not feeling all that bad... Just a

> bit

> slowed down for some unknown reason... That was in 1966.

>

> Fast forward to 1973 when I first visited a psychiatrist

> for what

> the family practice doctor told me was " depression " . His diagnosis

> was

> " Angry, frustrated woman! " . What the heck did that mean and how

> does one

> treat it? Nothing was done.

>

> Fast forward again to 1981 when I again sought help from a

> psychiatrist. A massive number of lab tests were done. The Thyroid

> panel

> showed a " low functioning " Thyroid, but no treatment was recommended

> and none given.

>

> Slip forward to 1983 when I was first admitted to a psych

> unit for

> " suicidal ideation " and what was diagnosed as " Bi-polar Disorder " .

> The

> hospital is required to perform a complete physical examination

> within 24

> hours of admission, so all of the lab tests were done, an EEG was

> done,

> x-rays, etc. The only seemingly abnormal result was in my Thyroid

> function, which was termed, " low functioning " . From 1981 to 1984, I

> was taking Lithium in one form or another.

>

> Since I was admitted on five additional occasions, the same

> tests showed the same results, but here is the rub.... When I was

> admitted the

> last time, I was already taking 2.25 of Synthroid and the lab tests

> still

> came back " low functioning Thyroid " . The prescribed amount of

> Synthroid

> was not increased at that time, but was changed two months after I

> returned

> home. At that time, my " mood stabilizer " medication was changed

> from

> Lithium to Depakote with Dilantin. I felt worse physically and

> mentally on

> that combination, but the doctor would not change it...I stopped all

> of the

> psych meds in 1996 because they were not helping. My psychiatrist

> was

> changed. The new one did not think that Bi-polar was the problem.

> After

> numerous interviews and testing, he concluded that I was depressed

> and had

> ADD, Inattentive Type, along with " Generalized Anxiety

> Disorder " . Nevertheless, I was feeling better than I had for many

> years. His conclusion was that my defiance over the " mood

> stabilizers " and

> other medications was correct and that stopping them was the best

> thing that I could have done.

>

> Fast forward again to 1999 when after changing my synthetic

> Thyroid hormone dose all the way up to 2.75, my labs still showed

> that my

> TSH was too high. At that point, I protested to the doctor that I

> wanted

> to try Armour on a 30-day trial. He reluctantly agreed to write the

> scrip. Within two weeks the depression had lifted! I didn't feel

> bad physically, but neither did I feel well...

>

> Skip forward to today. I still do not feel completely

> well, but I feel much better than I have for years!

>

> Here is some news. I am finally regrowing underarm hair!

> I

> actually had to shave this week! Yee Haw! There is hair growing in

> other

> places that had lost their hair, too! My eyebrows actually need to

> be

> waxed or plucked now and then. It would appear that after all of

> this time

> that my body is trying to do a slow recovery thing back to something

> closer

> to " normal " . I am doing a conservative happy dance...

>

> I agree with your " rant " 100%! God only knows what sort of

> damage

> has been done to us due to inadequate treatment or treatment with

> the wrong

> medications. Can something be done about it? It is doubtful that

> any kind

> of monetary solution would be found; however, that does not mean

> that we

> cannot continue to seek the kind of medical help we want and need.

>

> Dianne

[Guest guest]

That is SO GREAT, , that you're going to be talking with those people re:

the

nutritional thing! Wow! Know what that is? Just one more step closer to " The

Dream. " Cool. You go, Girl!

Janet

> I tried to go after the doc that told me that I was normal, needed to

> lose weight, and 'too fat to be sick' (the words he put in my chart) for

> his negligence, failure to even test me (even though his notes in my

> chart showed that he recognized that I had classic, text book symptoms of

[Guest guest]

No one give me too much grief over this, okay?

We talked about nutrition.. mini meals.. getting proper screening for

thyroid and adrenals... then I told her my dream.. we went on and on

about that... then we stopped for some soda..... and I got a lottery

ticket... first one that I've bought in years.... The soda a rare treat

for me by the way....

everyone cross your fingers, okay? The drawing is coming up in a few

minutes...

Topper () *afraid to hope*

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 22:03:04 -0000 " whitecap89 "

writes:

> That is SO GREAT, , that you're going to be talking with those

> people re: the

> nutritional thing! Wow! Know what that is? Just one more step

> closer to " The

> Dream. " Cool. You go, Girl!

> Janet