Re: Need everyones thoughts on this please, good and bad..

[Guest guest]

Gossimer....

I recently posted some info that I ran across a few days ago over on me

and 's group concerning Selenium and Vitamin C... you have to take

them both WITH food or the Vitamin C will cancel out the Selenium... the

articles also said that it's better to take organic types of selenium,

those with amino acids, to trick the body into utilizing them better.....

My question... How are you taking your Vitamin C and Selenium in regards

to each other and in relation to food? Could it me that you may not be

assisting your conversion as well as you thought?

.... just throwing ideas up in the air for discussion here.....

Topper ()

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:00:37 -0000 " gossimerwingz "

writes:

> Like a lot of us I have been under medicated for over 10 years, the

> worst has been these past 4 years. I can't tell you how many Doctors

> I fired until I found a NP who was interested in learning about

> Hashi's and its progressive treatment...unfortunately I moved 3

> months and 400 miles after I found this NP.

> Anyways, over these past 14 years, especially these last 4 years, no

> matter what I did, or what diet regiment I followed I gained weight,

> grumbled...didn't have the energy to hit the trails or the weight

> machines...sigh

> Anyways, on with life...

> Based upon something that I read on another thyroid group, the

> theory for medicating with $nthyroid is 1mcg for each pound of body

> weight...This is a theory, I understand that this may be how some

> Doctors begin their supplementation for when the Thyroid is no

> longer functioning, for whatever reason...

> The Armour web site charts give a conversion rate from $nthyroid

> over to Armour... approximately 300mcg to 3 grains...

> So, based upon this theory, I should have been on at least 330mcg of

> $nthyroid and the equivalent of Cytomel...as I barely convert T4

> over to T3, if at all...based upon test results... For those who are

> wondering why I would be up that high in dosage, my BMI is

> 52...sigh, whereas 14 years ago my BMI was under 20

> Okay, with that history, here is my situation...I bumped myself up

> to 5 grains several weeks ago and felt absolutely nothing, not bad

> (which is a great improvement as apposed to 2 months ago but not

> great either) increased at 1/2 grain a week but at two days of being

> on 6 grains (basal temp that morning had been only 97.4) I got light

> headed and felt like my head was dislocated from the

> shoulders...floating so to speak...(this is the reason I don't

> drink, I hate to lose the location of my head...giggle), so I

> dropped back down to 51/2 grains...I am saving up monies to get a

> full blood test done at these new doses but not there yet...my

> bodies temp. is not getting over 97.8(this morning) yet...most

> mornings its more in the range of 96.8 to 97.2 basal temp with an

> old mercury thermometer. I started out at 94 so there has been a

> great improvement on that front. I do know that my weight has acted

> as a buffer for the fast increase in the Armour dosing,

> I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND ANYBODY ELSE INCREASE THIS FAST!!!!!!

> I am " just a bit " impatient to feel better and I currently have no

> responsibilities other than reading and passing tests and acting as

> a nighttime caregiver while the client sleeps (sleeping on a sofa,

> with an ear open, is second nature to me.)

> Now, I am taking Fatigued to Fantastic, just in case my Adrenals

> need support, don't know but am taking just to be on the safe

> side...I just recently figured out (duh) that I should take this

> first thing in the morning and at lunch instead of at dinner time,

> chuckle. On my nights off I take 1mg of Meletonin to ensure a deep

> sleep, any more than that and I sleep almost 12 hours and never

> fully wake up until late afternoon. And I follow the Atkins

> supplementation recommendations. Selenium has been added this last

> week when I learned that this mineral helps in the conversion of T4

> to T3. I have always taken stress levels of the B vitamin complex

> family. And have added vit C to tolerance.

> Okay, now, my question is this: Is the lighted headedness an

> indication of over medication (hyperthyroid symptoms) or was it just

> my body beginning to make an adjustment to a dosage that might

> actually suit my bodies needs and my body mass index (weight, BMI)

> Its been so long since my last hyperthyroidism attack, I don't

> remember how I felt during that time period.

> Any thoughts or points or comments or questions to clarify are

> welcome....criticisms are welcome as well...they will help all of us

> learn.

> I still have a long ways to go in this learning process of

> Thyroidism.

>

> Gossimer

[Guest guest]

Hi Topper (),

I'll have to look at my bottles of Vit c and Selenium to see what

they are made of.

I try to take them with food as I have a stomach that reacts to

weird things. Used to live on a stomach medicine until a Nutrition

teacher pointed out what being on these drugs do to the stomach

silia (sp?) after a time of consumtion...sigh, yet another thing

that I had to correct...luckily the stomach heals rather quickly

within a week or two for the lining.

Also wanted to thank you for the suggetion of the desk exercising

program. Will play around with it this evening.

Unfortuantely, I have already had bi-lateral carpal tunnel release

surgery...WC related. The right still has some problems...yada yada

yada...chuckle, have strengthing exercises that I have long since

passed from the surgeon/specialist. If you know of anyone who is

thinking of having this done I would highly recommend this Surgeon

in Loma University, CA. He did a fantastic job (endoscopic)

and he left me with maybe a 1/4 inch scar, IF you know where to

look...no open hand surgery for this gal. THE MOST IMPORTANT

CONSIDERATION THAT I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THIS SURGERY IS THAT IT GAVE

ME BACK USE OF MY HANDS. I'd been off work for 6 months and then

sent back to work by WC before Dr. Watkins saw me and agreed to do

the release surgery. He said that this was Carpal Tunnel, one of the

worst cases that he had seen, and that it was not related to my

Hashi's, which a different Doctor had suggested to WC. He wanted to

keep me out another couple of weeks after the right hand surgery but

was not allowed to, thus the problems that croped back up with the

right hand. If the company hadn't announced its downsizing a couple

of weeks awithin my return to work I would have taken more medical

leave time...right hand just didn't recover as fast as the left,

sigh. Granted my last two weeks were really cussy, mostly doing

paperwork for the closing of the workforce, so very little typing

was done. And they knew my right hand wasn't up to par so I did one

hand typing for most of the work that was left for me to do. Still,

I was not able to give the right hand the babying that it needed.

The two weeks of working on the right hand has caused its own

problems....grumble..like the right hand typing slower than the

left. chuckle I love being amidextreous(sp?) And I do love the

Dragon Naturally Speaking typing program that'll do my typing for

me...except when I want to listen to music or a seminar on line at

the same time as doing my work on the computer, sigh...can't have

the best of both worlds I guess. <GRIN>

Anyways, got to go make dinner.

Gossimer

> Gossimer....

>

> I recently posted some info that I ran across a few days ago over

on me

> and 's group concerning Selenium and Vitamin C... you have to

take

> them both WITH food or the Vitamin C will cancel out the

Selenium... the

> articles also said that it's better to take organic types of

selenium,

> those with amino acids, to trick the body into utilizing them

better.....

>

> My question... How are you taking your Vitamin C and Selenium in

regards

> to each other and in relation to food? Could it me that you may

not be

> assisting your conversion as well as you thought?

>

> ... just throwing ideas up in the air for discussion here.....

>

> Topper ()

>

> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:00:37 -0000 " gossimerwingz "

> <gossimerwingz@y...> writes:

> > Like a lot of us I have been under medicated for over 10 years,

the

> > worst has been these past 4 years. I can't tell you how many

Doctors

> > I fired until I found a NP who was interested in learning about

> > Hashi's and its progressive treatment...unfortunately I moved 3

> > months and 400 miles after I found this NP.

> > Anyways, over these past 14 years, especially these last 4

years, no

> > matter what I did, or what diet regiment I followed I gained

weight,

> > grumbled...didn't have the energy to hit the trails or the

weight

> > machines...sigh

> > Anyways, on with life...

> > Based upon something that I read on another thyroid group, the

> > theory for medicating with $nthyroid is 1mcg for each pound of

body

> > weight...This is a theory, I understand that this may be how

some

> > Doctors begin their supplementation for when the Thyroid is no

> > longer functioning, for whatever reason...

> > The Armour web site charts give a conversion rate from $nthyroid

> > over to Armour... approximately 300mcg to 3 grains...

> > So, based upon this theory, I should have been on at least

330mcg of

> > $nthyroid and the equivalent of Cytomel...as I barely convert T4

> > over to T3, if at all...based upon test results... For those who

are

> > wondering why I would be up that high in dosage, my BMI is

> > 52...sigh, whereas 14 years ago my BMI was under 20

> > Okay, with that history, here is my situation...I bumped myself

up

> > to 5 grains several weeks ago and felt absolutely nothing, not

bad

> > (which is a great improvement as apposed to 2 months ago but not

> > great either) increased at 1/2 grain a week but at two days of

being

> > on 6 grains (basal temp that morning had been only 97.4) I got

light

> > headed and felt like my head was dislocated from the

> > shoulders...floating so to speak...(this is the reason I don't

> > drink, I hate to lose the location of my head...giggle), so I

> > dropped back down to 51/2 grains...I am saving up monies to get

a

> > full blood test done at these new doses but not there yet...my

> > bodies temp. is not getting over 97.8(this morning) yet...most

> > mornings its more in the range of 96.8 to 97.2 basal temp with

an

> > old mercury thermometer. I started out at 94 so there has been a

> > great improvement on that front. I do know that my weight has

acted

> > as a buffer for the fast increase in the Armour dosing,

> > I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND ANYBODY ELSE INCREASE THIS FAST!!!!!!

> > I am " just a bit " impatient to feel better and I currently have

no

> > responsibilities other than reading and passing tests and acting

as

> > a nighttime caregiver while the client sleeps (sleeping on a

sofa,

> > with an ear open, is second nature to me.)

> > Now, I am taking Fatigued to Fantastic, just in case my Adrenals

> > need support, don't know but am taking just to be on the safe

> > side...I just recently figured out (duh) that I should take this

> > first thing in the morning and at lunch instead of at dinner

time,

> > chuckle. On my nights off I take 1mg of Meletonin to ensure a

deep

> > sleep, any more than that and I sleep almost 12 hours and never

> > fully wake up until late afternoon. And I follow the Atkins

> > supplementation recommendations. Selenium has been added this

last

> > week when I learned that this mineral helps in the conversion of

T4

> > to T3. I have always taken stress levels of the B vitamin

complex

> > family. And have added vit C to tolerance.

> > Okay, now, my question is this: Is the lighted headedness an

> > indication of over medication (hyperthyroid symptoms) or was it

just

> > my body beginning to make an adjustment to a dosage that might

> > actually suit my bodies needs and my body mass index (weight,

BMI)

> > Its been so long since my last hyperthyroidism attack, I don't

> > remember how I felt during that time period.

> > Any thoughts or points or comments or questions to clarify are

> > welcome....criticisms are welcome as well...they will help all

of us

> > learn.

> > I still have a long ways to go in this learning process of

> > Thyroidism.

> >

> > Gossimer

[Guest guest]

I don't have a definite answer to light-headedness at 6 grains,

but........I can see the wisdom to staying on the 5 1/2 grains for a

minimum of 5 weeks to see what happens. No more fast raising of the

thyroid meds, in other words. If I am reading your post correctly,

it doesn't sound like you have given any dose time to build in your

system and produce results. Also, your morning temp is not so bad---

one doc recommends that we get to 97.8 - 98.2, and you are there.

Janie

> Okay, now, my question is this: Is the lighted headedness an

> indication of over medication (hyperthyroid symptoms) or was it

just

> my body beginning to make an adjustment to a dosage that might

> actually suit my bodies needs and my body mass index (weight, BMI)

> Its been so long since my last hyperthyroidism attack, I don't

> remember how I felt during that time period.

[Guest guest]

Hi Topper (), You may be right, I may not have been utilizing

what I was taking, supplement wise

..

To answer your question about my consumption of Vit C and Selenium:

I was taking them about an hour after eating, tonight I took them

right after dinner and will continue to do so. I also took my multi

vit and essential oils with food. I will try to do this with most of

my supplements from now on.

The source of Vit C is Ascorbic Acid in a base of Corn Starch, etc.

1000mg per tablet.

The source of mineral Selenium is (okay, these label printers keep

making the print smaller, this isn't fair, grumble, where are my

glasses, chuckle) from a pure food-grade yeast rich Selenomethione

and other seleno-amino acids - the natural food forms of selenium.

Yeast Based Selenomax Chelated Mineral Supplement. 100 mcg per

tablet.

I think, if I remember right from reading your posts about this,

these supplements meet what the articles ask for...

Thanks for your feed back!

Gossimer

> Gossimer....

>

> I recently posted some info that I ran across a few days ago over

on me

> and 's group concerning Selenium and Vitamin C... you have to

take

> them both WITH food or the Vitamin C will cancel out the

Selenium... the

> articles also said that it's better to take organic types of

selenium,

> those with amino acids, to trick the body into utilizing them

better.....

>

> My question... How are you taking your Vitamin C and Selenium in

regards

> to each other and in relation to food? Could it me that you may

not be

> assisting your conversion as well as you thought?

>

> ... just throwing ideas up in the air for discussion here.....

>

> Topper ()

[Guest guest]

Hi Janie,

Thanks for your thoughts and feed back.

I agree that nobody should go up as fast as I did. Not even when you

are inside of the medical field as a few of us are.

I tried to figure out what Armour's equivelent doasage was to what I

had been on with Levoxyl and started from there.

NO ONE ELSE SHOULD DO THIS!!!

And I probably should not have gone up this fast but I know from

past experience with drugs and medications that my particular body

is very resistant to just about everything. chuckle, for my last

flu/sinus infection they had to double the strength and double the

length of duration of treatment because my body was throwing off the

antibiotics and not the flu/infection. There have been other

medications and treatments that the Doctors had to double the

dosages to get the necessary response. On the other hand they have

to go very lightly with any anthestic for surgery, I am super

sensitive to being place under for surgery. I fall asleep way too

fast for their comfort, unless I fore warn them.

Anyways,... I agree that I really should stay at this dosage now for

at least 5 weeks. I finally got a response to Armour. I hadn't been

feeling anything at any of the lower amounts. No changes, only

slight bumps in the temp one day and the next day it would be back

down. I'm interested to see what tomorrows temp will be.

This will sound weird considering my BMI...however....

I agree that I need to be careful what I eat and the quantities...It

is kind of nice to finally FEEL hungry, body wise. Before I usually

ate when under stress or when the time clock said it had been 4

hours since the last time I ate. To actually FEEL Hungry...this is

an improvement...to FEEL!!!

Another thing that is weird for me, but it means that things are

starting to function again...

All winter long, and this is my first winter in the mountains in

over 35 years, I was walking around in a " personal summer " I walked

around barefoot and in a tee-shirt and light pants, when my roommate

was freezing, two to three layers and double heavy pants and

sheepskin slippers etc. Its her house so the temp was kept at 70 in

the day and 64 at night...I never once got cold. Now its spring time

and the temperatures are finally rising and I am finally feeling a

little chilly late in the evenings...Go figure...it could be pre

peremenopausal(before?) but I don't exhibit any other signals for

this. <grin> Again my system is finally Feeling something,

Hurray!!!!

Once again thanks for the input.

Gossimer

P.S. Oh, I forgot to mention, my blood presure is down today...from

its pre Armour of 140/82 to 126/76...A great improvement, alright a

baby step, but at least its down today. the heart beat was down as

well. still high but better...from 87 resting for 45 minutes to 78

resting for 45 minutes. This will go down/improve with exercise and

strengthing of the cardio system....

[Guest guest]

If they had to do that with antibiotics it could be that your body

has become resistant to antibiotics from taking too many of them.

Nowadays this is common because Drs will over prescribe antibiotics.

Remember they will only work when the infection is because of a

bacteria. They will do nothing for viral infections. Because I had an

allergic reaction to one, if I'm sick with something, I wait at least

a week before I even think about going to the Dr. If it's not getting

better after a week than I know that most likely the antibiotics are

needed.

Louise

>

> And I probably should not have gone up this fast but I know from

> past experience with drugs and medications that my particular body

> is very resistant to just about everything. chuckle, for my last

> flu/sinus infection they had to double the strength and double the

> length of duration of treatment because my body was throwing off

the

> antibiotics and not the flu/infection. There have been other

> medications and treatments that the Doctors had to double the

> dosages to get the necessary response. On the other hand they have

> to go very lightly with any anthestic for surgery, I am super

> sensitive to being place under for surgery. I fall asleep way too

> fast for their comfort, unless I fore warn them.

>

> > Once again thanks for the input.

> Gossimer

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds like you got it Gossimer! I've known about the importance of

taking vitamins with meals since I first got into body building... but

this vitamin C/ selenium thing was new.... I even split my vitamin

caplets so that I can take a bit every time I eat....

We learn as we go... I'm now taking a bit of a snack when I take my late

night stuff.....

Topper ()

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:42:02 -0000 " gossimerwingz "

writes:

> Hi Topper (), You may be right, I may not have been utilizing

> what I was taking, supplement wise

> To answer your question about my consumption of Vit C and Selenium:

> I was taking them about an hour after eating, tonight I took them

> right after dinner and will continue to do so. I also took my multi

> vit and essential oils with food. I will try to do this with most of

> my supplements from now on.

> The source of Vit C is Ascorbic Acid in a base of Corn Starch, etc.

> 1000mg per tablet.

> The source of mineral Selenium is (okay, these label printers keep

> making the print smaller, this isn't fair, grumble, where are my

> glasses, chuckle) from a pure food-grade yeast rich Selenomethione

> and other seleno-amino acids - the natural food forms of selenium.

> Yeast Based Selenomax Chelated Mineral Supplement. 100 mcg per

> tablet.

> I think, if I remember right from reading your posts about this,

> these supplements meet what the articles ask for...

> Thanks for your feed back!

> Gossimer

[Guest guest]

Fee... you're taking too many Brazil nuts.... 3 to 5 per day gives you

all the selenium that you need... Selenium is a mineral that you can get

too much of and die.... They actually state that doses of up to 600 mcg

of selenium per day are only safe for periods of up to 2 weeks....

Wow... I'm three times your size... and keep showing hyper when I try to

get up to 3 grain... I don't have a thyroid either... they nuked it!!!

We are all sooooo different...

Topper ()

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:00:53 -0000 " feemccormick "

writes:

> Hi Gossimer,

> Thanks for the vit c / selenium tip off. I'm allergic to yeast so I

> have to get my selenium from my food. I eat about 20 brazil nuts

> every day! yummy

> Just wanted to share with you that when I up my dose on Armour, I

> too

> get lightheaded & short term memory goes & I mean badly. Eg. wash my

> face in the shower then forget & do it again; or ask DH the same

> question straight away after just asking! I feel such a muppet!

> This gradually fades over a few days. Other things I experienced

> were some very bleary-eyed hypo days, some wonderful days, some

> palpitations - this all went.

> You suggest weight/amount of thyroid ratio. I am on 4 grains & am

> quite light - 112 pounds, bmi 20. I'm very slight naturally, & my

> mum is small too (she is also hypo).

> I'd deffo keep an eye on your pulse as well as your temperature (my

> resting pulse is 70 bpm), but I'd persevere through the symtoms,

> keep

> a note of them, and if they don't subside over a week or so, maybe

> reduce. At the risk of repeating myself today... my doc upped me

> 1/2 grain every three weeks.

> Hope your head stops dislocating soon (tee hee I'm gonna use that

> one!)

> Fee x x x

[Guest guest]

Hi Fee,

The Thanks for the recommendation for combining Vit C and Selenium

and food needs to go to Topper (). She reminded me of this

importance of this.

As for all Selenium tablets being from yeast cultures, now this I

don't know. Its just this bottle that I have, sold under the Natures

Life label, that states that it is collected via a yeast growth

process.

Just for more selection of where I get my Selenium I'm trying to

track down Brazil nuts here, to add to my Macadamia and Almond

consumption. I might find them at Trader Joe's or Wild Oats...I am

pretty sure that I won't find them at the warehouse store - CostCo -

where I get most of my groceries.

I just have to figure out what the carb count is for one Brazil nut.

chuckle, Yep, I'm a low carber for life. High protein intake has

always made me feel better. Expensive, yep it sure is,but I am

getting used to eating eggs more often then steak...sigh even though

steak sure does taste better...chuckle.

Ah well.

Thank you for the tips on how you have handled the dislocated head

syndrome from your Armour doseage increase. Its nice to know that

I'm not alone in this syndrome.

Gossimer

> Hi Gossimer,

> Thanks for the vit c / selenium tip off. I'm allergic to yeast so

I

> have to get my selenium from my food. I eat about 20 brazil nuts

> every day! yummy

<<snip>>

[Guest guest]

according to Dr Atkins, 6 brazil nuts = 2.1g net carbs

Lynda (in the UK)

Re: Need everyones thoughts on this please,

good and bad..

I just have to figure out what the carb count is for one Brazil nut.

chuckle, Yep, I'm a low carber for life. High protein intake has

always made me feel better. Expensive, yep it sure is,but I am

getting used to eating eggs more often then steak...sigh even though

steak sure does taste better...chuckle.

[Guest guest]

The carb count off those charts I listed a few days ago shows

12.27 carbs per 100 grams of edible nut... but I don't know how much a

nut weighs.....

Another chart shows 1 oz equals 25 grams and has 186 calories....

Those are the only references I have here.. maybe someone can do some

googling?

Topper ()

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 06:53:36 -0000 " gossimerwingz "

writes:

> Hi Fee,

> The Thanks for the recommendation for combining Vit C and Selenium

> and food needs to go to Topper (). She reminded me of this

> importance of this.

> As for all Selenium tablets being from yeast cultures, now this I

> don't know. Its just this bottle that I have, sold under the Natures

> Life label, that states that it is collected via a yeast growth

> process.

> Just for more selection of where I get my Selenium I'm trying to

> track down Brazil nuts here, to add to my Macadamia and Almond

> consumption. I might find them at Trader Joe's or Wild Oats...I am

> pretty sure that I won't find them at the warehouse store - CostCo -

> where I get most of my groceries.

> I just have to figure out what the carb count is for one Brazil nut.

> chuckle, Yep, I'm a low carber for life. High protein intake has

> always made me feel better. Expensive, yep it sure is,but I am

> getting used to eating eggs more often then steak...sigh even though

> steak sure does taste better...chuckle.

> Ah well.

> Thank you for the tips on how you have handled the dislocated head

> syndrome from your Armour doseage increase. Its nice to know that

> I'm not alone in this syndrome.

>

> Gossimer

[Guest guest]

Is there anything that we don't know as a group!!! ?????

hehehehehe

Topper ()

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 08:21:34 +0100 " Lynda "

writes:

> according to Dr Atkins, 6 brazil nuts = 2.1g net carbs

> Lynda (in the UK)

[Guest guest]

Nut weight is based on genetics, if you have large parents you are a large

nut, and if you have wee small parents, your a small nut. Sorry couldn't

resist.

Jen

-- Re: Re: Need everyones thoughts on this

please, good and bad..

The carb count off those charts I listed a few days ago shows

12.27 carbs per 100 grams of edible nut... but I don't know how much a

nut weighs.....

Topper ()

[Guest guest]

Thanks Lynda (in the UK)

YOu saved me having to dig out my books from storage

I moved about a year ago, share a house, and most of my stuff is

still in boxes, chuckle...chuckle, at least we are wearing out her

stuff and not mine, well except for my area rugs, that is.

Gossimer

> according to Dr Atkins, 6 brazil nuts = 2.1g net carbs

> Lynda (in the UK)

>

[Guest guest]

That was soooo bad... I'm a middle nut... dad is about 6 feet.... my mom

was 5'5... I'm 5'10....

Topper () *who considers herself a hazelnut*

On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:01:27 -0500 (Central Standard Time)

" NaughtyNeedler " writes:

> Nut weight is based on genetics, if you have large parents you are a

> large

> nut, and if you have wee small parents, your a small nut. Sorry

> couldn't

> resist.

>

> Jen

[Guest guest]

My Mother was five foot eleven, and I am barely five foot three,So this nut

shrank!Leon says I must have been very good, patted on the heads, so short

and fat! If I were bad, I would be taller cuz patting(swatting) on the

backside! LOL

Feisty*pecan*

Re: Re: Need everyones thoughts on this

please, good and bad..

> That was soooo bad... I'm a middle nut... dad is about 6 feet.... my mom

> was 5'5... I'm 5'10....

>

> Topper () *who considers herself a hazelnut*

>

> On Thu, 22 Apr 2004 09:01:27 -0500 (Central Standard Time)

> " NaughtyNeedler " writes:

> > Nut weight is based on genetics, if you have large parents you are a

> > large

> > nut, and if you have wee small parents, your a small nut. Sorry

> > couldn't

> > resist.

> >

> > Jen

>

>