Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Just a few comments as an observer (not trying to judge because I wasn't in her shoes). 1) She sounded like her emotions were getting the better of her from the get-go. I didn't hear command and control in her voice, I heard my wife screaming at the kids. 2) Suspect was marginally compliant up until she was ready to cuff. When he refused, back-up should have been summoned. 3) When she went to negotiating ( " won't you work with me, " I'll give you this if you give me that) the game was over. She was no longer in control...if she ever was totally in control. 4) Suspect was not (from what I saw on the camera, I can't say what happened off screen) an immediate threat that justified use of a deadly force. (But boy, she went to it quick and warned him enough before she shot him. She even came out of the car with her weapon drawn.) 5) Also, did she shoot to wing him? I thought the policy was to shoot to stop the threat which means a chest shot which at that range should have left the man speechless...and probably breathless and pulseless. Would some range time be in order? 6) And yes, the victim did state he was in EMT school. This is not exactly the way that EMS wants to be protrayed in police reality videos. Barry S. Female Trooper Shoots Man On Traffic Stop (VIDEO) If you listen closely to the suspect, he states that he is in EMT school. Joby Berkley [txcops] TACTICAL TALK: Female Trooper Shoots Man On Traffic Stop (VIDEO) > Connecting Texas' Best Via the Net > >From another list, check out the video! > > > TACTICAL TALK-EMAIL DISCUSSION GROUP > > CLICK ON BELOW LINK TO WATCH THE 12 MIN TRAFFIC STOP VIDEO THAT ENDS IN > THE SHOOTING OF A MAN BY A FEMALE TROOPER. > > http://ada.oklahoman.net/ramgen/real/save/trooper_shooting.rm > > DISCUSSION POINTS: > > What do you think about this incident? Was the use of force option > appropriate for this female trooper with no back-up? > > How would you have handled this situation? > > > " FOR THE RECORD " > > Trooper Involved In Shooting Returns To Patrol Duties > > OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- The Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper who shot a > fleeing drunken driving suspect in the back last June has returned to > her patrol duties. > Ward, acting public safety commissioner, said he could not > disclose any disciplinary action that may have been taken against > Trooper Laketa ''because it is a personnel matter.'' > Ward, however, said she has resumed her patrol duties with Troop A in > Oklahoma City. > Last month, Oklahoma County District Attorney Wes Lane said > made ''a split-second mistake'' when she shot Lyle , but > charges against the trooper were not warranted. > , 24, is the first female, black trooper to graduate from the > Oklahoma Highway Patrol Academy and has been a trooper for 1¨ years. > The shooting occurred after pulled over for speeding on > Interstate 35 in south Oklahoma City and gave him a sobriety test. > A OHP videotape showed , 21, was shot as he fled toward his truck. > He has recovered from his wounds. > > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to txcops as: joby@.... > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-txcops-60881M@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 I agree that this is not the way EMS should be portrayed, but on the other side of the token, I don't think this is the way the Oklahoma State Police want to be portrayed either. One of their troopers cussing at a motorist, no control of the scene, and using unjustifiable deadly force. Sounds like a winner officer to me. It's beyond me why she was indicted. Regards, Alfonso R. Ochoa, NREMT-P > Just a few comments as an observer (not trying to judge because I wasn't in > her shoes). > > 1) She sounded like her emotions were getting the better of her from the > get-go. I didn't hear command and control in her voice, I heard my wife > screaming at the kids. > > 2) Suspect was marginally compliant up until she was ready to cuff. When he > refused, back-up should have been summoned. > > 3) When she went to negotiating ( " won't you work with me, " I'll give you > this if you give me that) the game was over. She was no longer in > control...if she ever was totally in control. > > 4) Suspect was not (from what I saw on the camera, I can't say what happened > off screen) an immediate threat that justified use of a deadly force. (But > boy, she went to it quick and warned him enough before she shot him. She > even came out of the car with her weapon drawn.) > > 5) Also, did she shoot to wing him? I thought the policy was to shoot to > stop the threat which means a chest shot which at that range should have > left the man speechless...and probably breathless and pulseless. Would some > range time be in order? > > 6) And yes, the victim did state he was in EMT school. This is not exactly > the way that EMS wants to be protrayed in police reality videos. > > Barry S. > > Female Trooper Shoots Man On Traffic Stop (VIDEO) > > > If you listen closely to the suspect, he states that he is in EMT school. > > Joby Berkley > > > [txcops] TACTICAL TALK: Female Trooper Shoots Man On Traffic Stop > (VIDEO) > > > > Connecting Texas' Best Via the Net > > >From another list, check out the video! > > > > > > TACTICAL TALK-EMAIL DISCUSSION GROUP > > > > CLICK ON BELOW LINK TO WATCH THE 12 MIN TRAFFIC STOP VIDEO THAT ENDS IN > > THE SHOOTING OF A MAN BY A FEMALE TROOPER. > > > > http://ada.oklahoman.net/ramgen/real/save/trooper_shooting.rm > > > > DISCUSSION POINTS: > > > > What do you think about this incident? Was the use of force option > > appropriate for this female trooper with no back-up? > > > > How would you have handled this situation? > > > > > > " FOR THE RECORD " > > > > Trooper Involved In Shooting Returns To Patrol Duties > > > > OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- The Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper who shot a > > fleeing drunken driving suspect in the back last June has returned to > > her patrol duties. > > Ward, acting public safety commissioner, said he could not > > disclose any disciplinary action that may have been taken against > > Trooper Laketa ''because it is a personnel matter.'' > > Ward, however, said she has resumed her patrol duties with Troop A in > > Oklahoma City. > > Last month, Oklahoma County District Attorney Wes Lane said > > made ''a split-second mistake'' when she shot Lyle , but > > charges against the trooper were not warranted. > > , 24, is the first female, black trooper to graduate from the > > Oklahoma Highway Patrol Academy and has been a trooper for 1¨ years. > > The shooting occurred after pulled over for speeding on > > Interstate 35 in south Oklahoma City and gave him a sobriety test. > > A OHP videotape showed , 21, was shot as he fled toward his truck. > > He has recovered from his wounds. > > > > > > > > --- > > You are currently subscribed to txcops as: joby@s... > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-txcops-60881M@l... > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 I hate to point out the obvious, but what would we be discussing as a nation if this were a white cop and a black suspect? Rodney Fuller, LP > > Just a few comments as an observer (not trying to judge because I > wasn't in > > her shoes). > > > > 1) She sounded like her emotions were getting the better of her from > the > > get-go. I didn't hear command and control in her voice, I heard my > wife > > screaming at the kids. > > > > 2) Suspect was marginally compliant up until she was ready to cuff. > When he > > refused, back-up should have been summoned. > > > > 3) When she went to negotiating ( " won't you work with me, " I'll give > you > > this if you give me that) the game was over. She was no longer in > > control...if she ever was totally in control. > > > > 4) Suspect was not (from what I saw on the camera, I can't say what > happened > > off screen) an immediate threat that justified use of a deadly > force. (But > > boy, she went to it quick and warned him enough before she shot him. > She > > even came out of the car with her weapon drawn.) > > > > 5) Also, did she shoot to wing him? I thought the policy was to > shoot to > > stop the threat which means a chest shot which at that range should > have > > left the man speechless...and probably breathless and pulseless. > Would some > > range time be in order? > > > > 6) And yes, the victim did state he was in EMT school. This is not > exactly > > the way that EMS wants to be protrayed in police reality videos. > > > > Barry S. > > > > Female Trooper Shoots Man On Traffic Stop > (VIDEO) > > > > > > If you listen closely to the suspect, he states that he is in EMT > school. > > > > Joby Berkley > > > > > > [txcops] TACTICAL TALK: Female Trooper Shoots Man On > Traffic Stop > > (VIDEO) > > > > > > > Connecting Texas' Best Via the Net > > > >From another list, check out the video! > > > > > > > > > TACTICAL TALK-EMAIL DISCUSSION GROUP > > > > > > CLICK ON BELOW LINK TO WATCH THE 12 MIN TRAFFIC STOP VIDEO THAT > ENDS IN > > > THE SHOOTING OF A MAN BY A FEMALE TROOPER. > > > > > > http://ada.oklahoman.net/ramgen/real/save/trooper_shooting.rm > > > > > > DISCUSSION POINTS: > > > > > > What do you think about this incident? Was the use of force option > > > appropriate for this female trooper with no back-up? > > > > > > How would you have handled this situation? > > > > > > > > > " FOR THE RECORD " > > > > > > Trooper Involved In Shooting Returns To Patrol Duties > > > > > > OKLAHOMA CITY (AP) -- The Oklahoma Highway Patrol trooper who shot > a > > > fleeing drunken driving suspect in the back last June has returned > to > > > her patrol duties. > > > Ward, acting public safety commissioner, said he could not > > > disclose any disciplinary action that may have been taken against > > > Trooper Laketa ''because it is a personnel matter.'' > > > Ward, however, said she has resumed her patrol duties with Troop A > in > > > Oklahoma City. > > > Last month, Oklahoma County District Attorney Wes Lane said > > > > made ''a split-second mistake'' when she shot Lyle , > but > > > charges against the trooper were not warranted. > > > , 24, is the first female, black trooper to graduate from > the > > > Oklahoma Highway Patrol Academy and has been a trooper for 1¨ > years. > > > The shooting occurred after pulled over for > speeding on > > > Interstate 35 in south Oklahoma City and gave him a sobriety test. > > > A OHP videotape showed , 21, was shot as he fled toward his > truck. > > > He has recovered from his wounds. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > You are currently subscribed to txcops as: joby@s... > > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-txcops-60881M@l... > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 Maybe it's Monday morning quarterbacking, but what I saw was poor implementation of procedure by a trooper and a drunk who didn't follow instructions. The trooper involved should be remediated in continuum of force and in shoot / don't shoot decision making. The drunk should thank his superior being that he didn't get killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 lanelson1@... wrote: > > The trooper involved should be remediated in continuum of > force and in shoot / don't shoot decision making. That should come only AFTER a thorough psychiatric evaluation to determine if she is psychologically fit for the job. That broad's got issues. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2003 Report Share Posted December 16, 2003 My only question is .... WHERE WAS HER BACK UP? WHY DIDNT SHE CALL FOR IT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I've got many friends in law enforcement - and even they note the " attitude " of so many state troopers. I think it comes from the fact that, primarily, they deal with traffic violations. In their worldview, they take on a near-evangelical zeal about " saving lives since 'speed kills.' " At least that's my opinion. -Wes Ogilvie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 -- Rob wrote: >That should come only AFTER a thorough psychiatric evaluation to >determine if she is psychologically fit for the job. That broad's got >issues. Any LEO of any gender who acted the way she did on that tape should have a fitness evaluation. That was the epitome of lack of control and totally unprofessional. Which leads one to wonder: How many EMS agencies do psychological evaluations? We have many of the same stresses as LEOs and with the allegations that an 18 year RN in NJ is implicated in 30-40 murders, do we have some potential 'time bombs " in our midst? Is there some 'woo-woo freak' that, if turned loose with a vehicle running L & S, leaks adrenalin from their ears and are as dangerous as this trooper with her weapon? Is there a member of your agency who has recently started spending more time in the gym, getting more 'buff', but fly off the handle, and have become more withdrawn and are really abrupt when dealt with? Is there a medic who has worked for every service in town, usually for 4-5 months, that had 'personality clashes' with partners and supervisors? We all can probably think of someone like that, or do other things that can be harmful to patients, co-workers, and customers. Do we do anything about it? Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 TEMSFPIO@... wrote: > My only question is .... > > > WHERE WAS HER BACK UP? WHY DIDNT SHE CALL FOR IT? Apparently OHP instills the same " Lone Wolf " mentality into their troopers as Texas does. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Not defending actions too much but this type of incident could have turned into a situation of " State Trooper dies in altercation. " The altercation I refer to is that the individual actually resisted arrest. The subject should have pulled over earlier than he did. The trooper's actions appeared to be secondary to not knowing why this individual had not pulled over in the first place. If Oklahoma is the same as Texas the possibility of backup is sometimes 15 to 20 miles away. Knowing your backup is more than a couple of minutes out makes a difference when faced with a problem. The trooper did let the situation escalate sooner than it should have, it appears. By telling the subject that she was about to shoot him, and telling him several times; the subject should have replied " Yes Ma'am, what would you like me to do? " I would bet that this individual had just done or was about to do something he would have been arrested for in the first place. By his actions of being evasive in his remarks he Further made the situation go from bad to worse. The trooper's attitude did not help the situation in the beginning, her final actions it did appear were due to some suspicion that she was in fear for her life. By noticing closely the video and listening the individual did resist arrest; otherwise he would have been in handcuffs long before he was shot.The final end result: a subject was shot when this could have been avoided. Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response (PETSAR) Office FAX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I wonder why THIS didn't get national coverage for a week or more whereas the Cinn thing did. Maybe it has and I haven't seen it. If you or I were to have that kind of attitude in EMS/Fire, I think we would be dismissed right away and our supervisor wouldn't look back. The same should go for law enforcement at any level. They are public servants to the citizens they 'protect'. I bet phil's comments are all true and she makes the department look bad. What's that saying? " A bad apple can spoil the whole bunch " Sorry, not up with all my clichés. I liked Barry's comments on the situation very much and I would like to point out again that she had him come out of the truck at gun point as on a busy highway late in the evening. All and all, this situation wasn't handled very well by the peace officer. stay away from these officers while they are armed and take care. On Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003, at 08:31 US/Central, Phil Reynolds composed: > Hmmm...I wonder... > > I'll bet this isn't the first time she's had > " interpersonal " problems. > > I'll bet she ROUTINELY has to fight people. > > I'll bet the other Troopers are sick to death of > backing her up when SHE was the cause of the > problem in the first place. > > I'll bet the other grunt Troopers aren't proud > that she's a member of the agency. > > just my thoughts. > > phil > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Rev. Farrell wrote: > I wonder why THIS didn't get national coverage for a week or more > whereas the Cinn thing did. Maybe it has and I haven't seen it. I would like to think it is because OHP has a PIO that is *really* good at keeping dirty laundry out of sight. Fat chance. Especially since the video is on a news media website. I would suggest that the lack of national coverage of this incident tells us a lot about the agenda of the news media. If it doesn't fit into their agenda, it isn't news. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 asclapius@... wrote: > ...but on the other side of the token... Ouch! That was a really bad pun! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I'm glad to see so many experts here that are BOTH phychiatrists and law enforcement experts. Gosh, I didn't know you folks had it in you. hiding all that knowledge. Rob wrote: >TEMSFPIO@... wrote: > > > >>My only question is .... >> >> >>WHERE WAS HER BACK UP? WHY DIDNT SHE CALL FOR IT? >> >> > >Apparently OHP instills the same " Lone Wolf " mentality into their >troopers as Texas does. > >Rob > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Somebody finally got it! :-D Regards, Alfonso R. Ochoa, NREMT-P > > ...but on the other side of the token... > > Ouch! That was a really bad pun! > > Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 lol. that's exactly my thoughts. And we probably won't hear much of it even though its streaming from a news media website. just another reason to have alternative news media. On Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003, at 11:18 US/Central, Rob composed: > Rev. Farrell wrote: > > I wonder why THIS didn't get national coverage for a week or more > > whereas the Cinn thing did. Maybe it has and I haven't seen it. > > I would like to think it is because OHP has a PIO that is *really* good > at keeping dirty laundry out of sight. Fat chance. Especially since > the video is on a news media website. > > I would suggest that the lack of national coverage of this incident > tells us a lot about the agenda of the news media. If it doesn't fit > into their agenda, it isn't news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 I could not have ever said it better myself. Those are VERY excellent points! On Wednesday, Dec 17, 2003, at 15:42 US/Central, Phil Reynolds composed: > > --- Steve wrote: > > I'm glad to see so many experts here that are > > BOTH phychiatrists and law > > enforcement experts. > > Gosh, I didn't know you folks had it in you. > > hiding all that knowledge. > > How silly of you not to have known! After all, > we all watch COPS, Law & Order, Third Watch, and > CHiPs. What else is there? > > The fact remains that we are all, including the > Trooper in the video, responsible for being able > to deal with people who don't want to do what we > want them to do. It's a part of our job, just as > wearing a uniform is part of our job. > > Paramedics have to convince people to go to the > hospital because many patients don't realize the > gravity of their condition. Firefighters have to > convince people to quit risking their lives for > personal belongings in burning buildings. Police > Officers have to convince people to wear shiny > bracelets. All of these situations are part of > our normal daily routines. > > I'm not a law enforcement expert, other than what > I've seen on TV. As Tom Cruise says in the > movie, " The coverage is excellent... " lol... > > Anyway, it appears to me that she did nothing to > defuse the situation. I've been to boot camp, > and I've been to Fire School, and my Dad did some > time as a Military Training Instructor, so I've > been yelled at by some people who are highly > proficient at projecting their expectations of my > behavior. I'm not easily rattled by yelling > people. > > Generally, in common society, yelling at somebody > who doesn't expect to be yelled at only serves to > increase anxiety and other emotional responses, > as well as decrease conscientious action. In > other words, if you yell at normal people for no > apparent reason, they get panicky and do stupid > stuff. > > Public safety professionals like you, me, and > that Trooper should understand that panicky > stupid activity is counterproductive to our > stated goals of Life Safety, Property > Conservation, and Incident Stabilization. > > None of us really knows the whole story behind > the incident. The tape starts too late into it > to tell us what caused the Trooper to notice this > buffoon, the field of view doesn't capture the > entire incident, and what I could see wasn't > clear enough to answer some of my questions (one > of which is: In 2003, doesn't OHP issue OC spray, > batons, or tasers, or are their Troopers limited > to pugilism and gunfights? I couldnt tell from > the video.) The true answers to those questions > might make a huge difference in how we view the > outcome. > > For the record, however, from what I've seen on > the video, I'm not impressed with how the > incident was handled. > > stay safe - > phil > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 If this wasn't her first interpersonal conflict, then the agency has the same psych problems that she has. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2003 Report Share Posted December 17, 2003 Nobody wins, that's the really sad part. The trooper in my opinion, started off on the wrong foot, and continued hopping on it throughout, one of the things I found most remarkable, aside from how quickly a traffic stop turned into a shooting, was that after losing count of the number of times, she was bleeped out, she actually had the unmitigated gall to admonish him for saying bullsh*t!! The driver on the other hand, should have done what he was told in the beginning, and he would have walked away with a ticket at worst. I don't know if he was drunk or not, though the 'sprained ankle' line didn't lend much credence to his 'I'm sober' story. Re: Re: Female Trooper Shoots Man On Traffic Stop (VIDEO ) > > Maybe it's Monday morning quarterbacking, but what I saw was poor implementation of procedure by a trooper and a drunk who didn't follow instructions. The trooper involved should be remediated in continuum of force and in shoot / don't shoot decision making. The drunk should thank his superior being that he didn't get killed. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2003 Report Share Posted December 19, 2003 Steve wrote: > > So your point is everyone does it to us, and so it's ok? That's mature. Steve, I believe his point was more in line with, " you did it to us, so don't act surprised when it comes back to you. " Judge not, lest ye be judged. That is hypocrisy. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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