Re: Sociopathic borderlines??

[Guest guest]

Yes, relationships with nadas and other bpds seem to be a very one-way

proposition. All the rules and regulations are for other people, not the

bpd/npd.

-Annie

> >

> > I'm sure my nada has a conscience. What she lacks is the ability

> > to see that her conscience should bother her for many of the

> > things she's done. Often, she twists things around in her mind

> > to the point where she believes that she was wronged rather than

> > believing the truth, that she wronged other people. Other times

> > she is so wrapped up in getting what she wants that she just

> > doesn't see how much damage she's inflicting on others in the

> > process of doing what she wants. Occasionally she realizes how

> > much collateral damage she's caused and seems to feel sorry for

> > it. That doesn't make her alter her behavior though. There's a

> > disconnect between her ability to see the bad results of what

> > she's done and her ability to make decisions that avoid doing it

> > again.

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> @... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

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>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I'd have to look it up (I have bookmarked a couple dozen articles about bpd now)

but I think the area of the brain that seems to be related to bpd behaviors is

the amygdala, which is over at the sides of the head on the outside (temporal

lobe) and if I understand the image I'm looking at correctly, the cingulate

gyrus is inside, sandwiched between outer and more interior parts of the brain.

So it seems to me (and I am no scientist, I just looked this stuff up on the

Internet) that the two areas aren't near each other.

-Annie

>

> Annie...the other post of yours I wanted to respond to is hard to find (this

group is so busy!) so I'll just throw this in here. When I was reading about

brain studies with hoarders the area of the brain that seemed damaged in

hoarders was the anterior cingulate gyrus in control of decision making and

prioritization. Is that anywhere near the troubled BPD brain parts?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Annie--thanks for sharing that excerpt--really interesting and helpful. Really

rings true. Though kinda freaks me out thinking about nada's blob-ish sense of

identity....i've been assimilated by her. gross.

-lisa

> > >

> > > Hi - just some thoughts running through my head this morning...

> > > As I've known so many borderlines in my life, some of them nice, kind,

loyal

> > > and honest, some of them mean, vindictive, disloyal and dishonest, I was

> > > wondering if the borderlines in our lives that have hurt us so much have

had

> > > a sociopathic element to them.

> > > Those of us who were raised by BPDS - were we raised by sociopaths?

> > > I know that not all sociopaths are murderers. My nada wasn't.

> > > But she did everything she could to murder my soul and my father's soul.

> > > Wouldn't a sociopath take absolute glee in being as mean and emotionally

> > > destructive to those around her as possible?

> > > I watch true crime shows a lot, and relate strongly to those of the

" Deadly

> > > Women " variety - because those women remind me so strongly of my nada.

> > > Any thoughts on this sociopathic element?

> > > Judy Ariel

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I agree--i don't believe my queen witch nada has what is commonly understood as

a functioning conscience. This is something that's fascinated and troubled me

for years about nada. I believe it is a warped ability to assess their own

behaviors--certainly they feel the authority to be judge and jury in everyone

else's behavior. but when it comes to their own, i'd say there's an utter

fragility that neutralizes a sense of conscience and accountability.

For example, i was in the car with nada maybe 10 years ago and she hit a parked

car behind her as she was pulling out of a parking space [in her land-barge

cadillac; other car was a clunker]. Her immediate fear reaction was to get the

heck out of dodge and she started pulling away. I was like, " Are you mad?! You

need to leave a note at least. " Initially she could scarcely register what I

was telling her. But she did eventually do the right thing--only because i was

in the car.

But that moment was so telling for me. I saw the terrified, vulnerable little

girl in her [despite her ever-present rage and anger]. And I could see that her

internal barometer/conscience had very different parameters than mine. it's as

if she can't at all process any sort of being at fault. like the tiniest bit of

failure simply destroys her--like water on the wicked witch of the west.

And of course, the only way to let no failure/negative judgment/accountability

fall on her shoulders, she needs to completely change the rules. the end

justifies the means--and she will contort reality, common sense, etc to justify

her exoneration. welcome to narnia. sad really, to not be able to handle any

kind of accountability.

-lisa

> >

> > I'm sure my nada has a conscience. What she lacks is the ability

> > to see that her conscience should bother her for many of the

> > things she's done. Often, she twists things around in her mind

> > to the point where she believes that she was wronged rather than

> > believing the truth, that she wronged other people. Other times

> > she is so wrapped up in getting what she wants that she just

> > doesn't see how much damage she's inflicting on others in the

> > process of doing what she wants. Occasionally she realizes how

> > much collateral damage she's caused and seems to feel sorry for

> > it. That doesn't make her alter her behavior though. There's a

> > disconnect between her ability to see the bad results of what

> > she's done and her ability to make decisions that avoid doing it

> > again.

>

[Guest guest]

OMG,Jackie,your post just gave me a flashback...I haven't thought about this is

YEARS,but my nada used to help herself to stuff while we were shopping at the

supermarket--she'd take a box of cookies or something as we went by and snack on

her fill then put the opened box on a shelf just as casually as she'd taken it

down.But I was forbidden to touch anything--and I remember asking her if she

wasn't going to pay for something she had taken and then put " back " and the

seering contempt I got for daring to ask...she had the money to just buy the

thing,it was like she did it more for the thrill she got from taking it...what

great lessons for later life we learn from our nadas...I remember her batting

her eyelashes and flirting with any nearby (male) supermarket staff as she

muched on her " find " and how they'd smile indulgently at her,she was beautiful

in this sweet angelic seeming way--while I inwardly seethed to myself that the

guy smiling at her was a dolt for not getting that she was stealing right in his

face and thoroughly enjoying it...I'd never dream of either stealing like that

OR using my feminine wiles to get away with wrongdoing.Sometimes after heavy

exercize I'll drink down a bottle of something in a store but I always take the

empty container to the checkout.It would feel like debasing myself to flirt

while I stole like she did,but I guess for her the power trip element of it

trumped any question of moral debasement....

>

> my nada is very much like yours...but I really doubt mine has a

> conscience..she has stolen ( shop lifted), then when I called her on it..had

> a " reason " why it was OK for her to do it..she doesn't care if she hurts us,

> she doesn't promise to do better, because she doesn't care enough to

> bother...she thinks she's entitled to do what she does to whoever she does

> it to...SHE is allowed to do these things, but no one is allowed to do any

> of it to her !! Nada never has ever had any remorse for what she's done or

> said...she has never apologized..if called on something, she'll just say

> something like " you are too thin skinned " but YOU become evil if you ever

> do anything of the kind to her !!

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> @... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

> THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

my nada did this too..usually it was eating grapes or something like that

while she was shopping :-( of course she'd never share with my sister and

me who she always dragged around behind her...and sometimes she'd make us be

a distraction so she could snarf down something else...it's weird how

similar our nadas are...

Jackie

OMG,Jackie,your post just gave me a flashback...I haven't thought about this

is YEARS,but my nada used to help herself to stuff while we were shopping at

the supermarket--she'd take a box of cookies or something as we went by and

snack on her fill then put the opened box on a shelf just as casually as

she'd taken it down.But I was forbidden to touch anything--and I remember

asking her if she wasn't going to pay for something she had taken and then

put " back " and the seering contempt I got for daring to ask...she had the

money to just buy the thing,it was like she did it more for the thrill she

got from taking it...what great lessons for later life we learn from our

nadas...I remember her batting her eyelashes and flirting with any nearby

(male) supermarket staff as she muched on her " find " and how they'd smile

indulgently at her,she was beautiful in this sweet angelic seeming

way--while I inwardly seethed to myself that the guy smiling at her was a

dolt for not getting that she was stealing right in his face and thoroughly

enjoying it...I'd never dream of either stealing like that OR using my

feminine wiles to get away with wrongdoing.Sometimes after heavy exercize

I'll drink down a bottle of something in a store but I always take the empty

container to the checkout.It would feel like debasing myself to flirt while

I stole like she did,but I guess for her the power trip element of it

trumped any question of moral debasement....

[Guest guest]

I wonder if pd people are why fresh produce is so often sold in plastic netting

or sealed plastic cartons now, so that the entitled ones can't snarf down fists

full of free samples anymore? If I buy grapes now, I have to just hope they're

sweet because I can't taste them. And I never buy foods sold in bulk out of

bins anymore, I've seen too many adults and kids just reach their

(bacteria-coated) hands in repeatedly to take " samples " to eat for free instead

of using the scoop and a plastic bag, which are right there.

Yes, funny how the personality-disordered believe that rules are only for other

people; the pd person is above the rules.

-Annie

>

> my nada did this too..usually it was eating grapes or something like that

> while she was shopping :-( of course she'd never share with my sister and

> me who she always dragged around behind her...and sometimes she'd make us be

> a distraction so she could snarf down something else...it's weird how

> similar our nadas are...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> OMG,Jackie,your post just gave me a flashback...I haven't thought about this

> is YEARS,but my nada used to help herself to stuff while we were shopping at

> the supermarket--she'd take a box of cookies or something as we went by and

> snack on her fill then put the opened box on a shelf just as casually as

> she'd taken it down.But I was forbidden to touch anything--and I remember

> asking her if she wasn't going to pay for something she had taken and then

> put " back " and the seering contempt I got for daring to ask...she had the

> money to just buy the thing,it was like she did it more for the thrill she

> got from taking it...what great lessons for later life we learn from our

> nadas...I remember her batting her eyelashes and flirting with any nearby

> (male) supermarket staff as she muched on her " find " and how they'd smile

> indulgently at her,she was beautiful in this sweet angelic seeming

> way--while I inwardly seethed to myself that the guy smiling at her was a

> dolt for not getting that she was stealing right in his face and thoroughly

> enjoying it...I'd never dream of either stealing like that OR using my

> feminine wiles to get away with wrongdoing.Sometimes after heavy exercize

> I'll drink down a bottle of something in a store but I always take the empty

> container to the checkout.It would feel like debasing myself to flirt while

> I stole like she did,but I guess for her the power trip element of it

> trumped any question of moral debasement....

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Isn't it amazing how they do that? How they justify their behavior but will

criticize someone else for the exact same behavior? I have never known of

my mother to steal, but she did lie and she would invade my privacy to the

point it was really INVASION. She would go through my things whether it be

my mail or a diary when I lived at home. She listened in on phone calls.

And yet, oddly, she was uninvolved in my life. She didn't have a

relationship with me at all. She didn't want to go out to lunch or go shopping.

She

wanted to complain and whine and have me dote on her for whatever reason and

feel sorry for her and let her tell me about all of the murders and rapes

and horrible crimes being committed in the world because she couldn't turn

off CNN.

I don't get it. She was so obsessed and so....miserable. If you're UNHAPPY

in your life, don't you set out to change that? Isn't that what people are

supposed to do?

Not BPD's. They just want to make everyone miserable too.

In a message dated 3/5/2010 5:00:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sleddog@... writes:

my nada is very much like yours...but I really doubt mine has a

conscience..conscience..<WBR>she has stolen ( shop lifted), then when I

called he

a " reason " why it was OK for her to do it..she doesn't care if she hurts

us,

she doesn't promise to do better, because she doesn't care enough to

bother...she thinks she's entitled to do what she does to whoever she does

it to...SHE is allowed to do these things, but no one is allowed to do any

of it to her !! Nada never has ever had any remorse for what she's done or

said...she has never apologized..said...she has never apologized..<WBR>if

cal

something like " you are too thin skinned " but YOU become evil if you ever

do anything of the kind to her !!

Jackie

If you think of a conscience as the thing that prevents a person from

doing

something wrong or unethical simply because it *is* wrong or unethical,

*even if* the person could clearly get away with doing the wrong,

unethical

thing, and *even if* the person wants VERY intensely to do the

wrong/unethical thing, then, I'm not sure that my bpd/npd mom has a

conscience.

Her emotional needs of the moment *always* override her conscience,

particularly when it comes to venting her rage which she has *promised

faithfully* on countless occasions to not do again.

Plus, other smaller things like, if a cashier at a store gives her too

much

change, she doesn't do the ethical thing and give the excess change back.

She even told me once that she used to flirt with boys in school so that

they would do her homework for her. (Is that all, mom? Just " flirting " ?)

She

even seemed proud that she'd pulled off some of these minor cheats and

cons.

She seems to feel quite comfortable with rewriting history, more commonly

referred to as " lying " , in any way that will allow her to win an argument

or

come out as the victim in a given situation.

Well, either she is consciously lying or she is so cognitively impaired

that

her reality is 180 degrees tilted from objective reality so that she never

causes any problems she is experiencing, its always due to other people.

So... I'm on the fence, here. I really can't say whether she has no

conscience or she's just so cognitively wacked that her reality exists in

some alternate universe to my reality, and never the twain shall meet.

-Annie

>

> I'm sure my nada has a conscience. What she lacks is the ability

> to see that her conscience should bother her for many of the

> things she's done. Often, she twists things around in her mind

> to the point where she believes that she was wronged rather than

> believing the truth, that she wronged other people. Other times

> she is so wrapped up in getting what she wants that she just

> doesn't see how much damage she's inflicting on others in the

> process of doing what she wants. Occasionally she realizes how

> much collateral damage she's caused and seems to feel sorry for

> it. That doesn't make her alter her behavior though. There's a

> disconnect between her ability to see the bad results of what

> she's done and her ability to make decisions that avoid doing it

> again.

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

_@..._ (mailto:@...) . SEND HER ANY POSTS

THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the

Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you

can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

it's so hard isnt it? i know its not all her fault, but i cant let myself get

pulled in by sympathy. and i do have sympathy for this miserable nada of mine

who constantly ruins the good things in her life and the people who genuinely

love her. But I can't let myself get pulled in by sympathy because she's used

that to manipulate so many times. She does need help, and a caring but not

easily fooled therapist to help her. But it can't be me. Oh, and ditto on the

invasion thing. My uncle things I'm the worst person becuase when my mom

demanded a key to my house I wouldn't give it to her. I know she'll go through

all my stuff, and I wouldn't be surprised to come home and find her with our

financial records open on her lap.

I understand your struggle with where to lay the responsibility. I've been

wroking on that one a long time, and in the end there's a lot of things I've

just accepted I'll never get my head all the way around. Whatever destroyed her

sense of self in the first place was not her fault, but my nada in particular

has had many opportunities to get some help and won't. I don't htink she'd ever

be normal, but I do think she could learn to be less nasty.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 6:24:45 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Sociopathic borderlines??

Isn't it amazing how they do that? How they justify their behavior but will

criticize someone else for the exact same behavior? I have never known of

my mother to steal, but she did lie and she would invade my privacy to the

point it was really INVASION. She would go through my things whether it be

my mail or a diary when I lived at home. She listened in on phone calls.

And yet, oddly, she was uninvolved in my life. She didn't have a

relationship with me at all. She didn't want to go out to lunch or go shopping.

She

wanted to complain and whine and have me dote on her for whatever reason and

feel sorry for her and let her tell me about all of the murders and rapes

and horrible crimes being committed in the world because she couldn't turn

off CNN.

I don't get it. She was so obsessed and so....miserable. If you're UNHAPPY

in your life, don't you set out to change that? Isn't that what people are

supposed to do?

Not BPD's. They just want to make everyone miserable too.

In a message dated 3/5/2010 5:00:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sleddoghughes (DOT) net writes:

my nada is very much like yours...but I really doubt mine has a

conscience.. conscience. .<WBR>she has stolen ( shop lifted), then when I

called he

a " reason " why it was OK for her to do it..she doesn't care if she hurts

us,

she doesn't promise to do better, because she doesn't care enough to

bother...she thinks she's entitled to do what she does to whoever she does

it to...SHE is allowed to do these things, but no one is allowed to do any

of it to her !! Nada never has ever had any remorse for what she's done or

said...she has never apologized.. said...she has never apologized.. <WBR>if

cal

something like " you are too thin skinned " but YOU become evil if you ever

do anything of the kind to her !!

Jackie

If you think of a conscience as the thing that prevents a person from

doing

something wrong or unethical simply because it *is* wrong or unethical,

*even if* the person could clearly get away with doing the wrong,

unethical

thing, and *even if* the person wants VERY intensely to do the

wrong/unethical thing, then, I'm not sure that my bpd/npd mom has a

conscience.

Her emotional needs of the moment *always* override her conscience,

particularly when it comes to venting her rage which she has *promised

faithfully* on countless occasions to not do again.

Plus, other smaller things like, if a cashier at a store gives her too

much

change, she doesn't do the ethical thing and give the excess change back.

She even told me once that she used to flirt with boys in school so that

they would do her homework for her. (Is that all, mom? Just " flirting " ?)

She

even seemed proud that she'd pulled off some of these minor cheats and

cons.

She seems to feel quite comfortable with rewriting history, more commonly

referred to as " lying " , in any way that will allow her to win an argument

or

come out as the victim in a given situation.

Well, either she is consciously lying or she is so cognitively impaired

that

her reality is 180 degrees tilted from objective reality so that she never

causes any problems she is experiencing, its always due to other people.

So... I'm on the fence, here. I really can't say whether she has no

conscience or she's just so cognitively wacked that her reality exists in

some alternate universe to my reality, and never the twain shall meet.

-Annie

>

> I'm sure my nada has a conscience. What she lacks is the ability

> to see that her conscience should bother her for many of the

> things she's done. Often, she twists things around in her mind

> to the point where she believes that she was wronged rather than

> believing the truth, that she wronged other people. Other times

> she is so wrapped up in getting what she wants that she just

> doesn't see how much damage she's inflicting on others in the

> process of doing what she wants. Occasionally she realizes how

> much collateral damage she's caused and seems to feel sorry for

> it. That doesn't make her alter her behavior though. There's a

> disconnect between her ability to see the bad results of what

> she's done and her ability to make decisions that avoid doing it

> again.

------------ --------- --------- ------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

_BPDCentral (DOT) Lis_ (mailto:BPDCentral (DOT) com) . SEND HER ANY POSTS

THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the

Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you

can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

My nada's invasions of my privacy included what I called

" stealing " and she called " borrowing " . Any time she's ever had

access to my living space, she has felt free to take whatever

she wanted to take, often books but sometimes other things too.

When I was growing up, she'd creep into my bedroom at night

while I was sleeping and take my library books because she

wanted something to read. I learned to sleep very lightly. When

you take something belonging to someone else, knowing that they

don't want to let you take it, isn't that stealing? I don't

think that whether or not you intend to eventually return it

changes the fact that you've taken it without permission.

I don't get being miserable yet unwilling to change either. My

nada has been unhappy about where she's lived for all of her

adult life. She married my father so that he'd take her far away

from her family but didn't like the results. She's never gone

back to the place she supposedly wants to live though, despite

the fact that there has been nothing to stop her from going. She

has been unhappy with whatever job she was working at for most

of her life too. After watching her be unhappy while refusing to

do anything to change the things that made her unhappy, I

eventually concluded that she gained a kind of twisted pleasure

from being unhappy. It is like she basks in the glow of her

unhappiness. I find the glow of her unhappiness toxic to be

around. Despite doing little to make herself happy, she seems

jealous of people are really are happy with their lives.

At 07:24 AM 03/07/2010 Hummingbird1298@... wrote:

>Isn't it amazing how they do that? How they justify their

>behavior but will

> criticize someone else for the exact same behavior? I have

> never known of

> my mother to steal, but she did lie and she would invade my

> privacy to the

>point it was really INVASION. She would go through my things

>whether it be

>my mail or a diary when I lived at home. She listened in on

>phone calls.

>And yet, oddly, she was uninvolved in my life. She didn't have

>a

>relationship with me at all. She didn't want to go out to

>lunch or go shopping. She

>wanted to complain and whine and have me dote on her for

>whatever reason and

>feel sorry for her and let her tell me about all of the

>murders and rapes

>and horrible crimes being committed in the world because she

>couldn't turn

>off CNN.

>

>I don't get it. She was so obsessed and so....miserable. If

>you're UNHAPPY

>in your life, don't you set out to change that? Isn't that what

>people are

>supposed to do?

>

>Not BPD's. They just want to make everyone miserable too.

>

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

That's horrible. You remind me of myself. My mother once presented my

father with my diary and the two of them had a conversation in front of me about

how weird it was and how abnormal I was.

In a message dated 3/7/2010 3:13:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

birdtoes@... writes:

one or the other of them would read it and often make angry and

embarrassing

notations in it.

[Guest guest]

you are so right, !! nada always went through our things..I caught

her reading my sisters diary once !! and I know she listened to phone

calls..yet she never was interested in our lives...

Jackie

Isn't it amazing how they do that? How they justify their behavior but will

criticize someone else for the exact same behavior? I have never known of

my mother to steal, but she did lie and she would invade my privacy to the

point it was really INVASION. She would go through my things whether it be

my mail or a diary when I lived at home. She listened in on phone calls.

And yet, oddly, she was uninvolved in my life. She didn't have a

relationship with me at all. She didn't want to go out to lunch or go

shopping. She

wanted to complain and whine and have me dote on her for whatever reason

and

feel sorry for her and let her tell me about all of the murders and rapes

and horrible crimes being committed in the world because she couldn't turn

off CNN.

I don't get it. She was so obsessed and so....miserable. If you're UNHAPPY

in your life, don't you set out to change that? Isn't that what people are

supposed to do?

Not BPD's. They just want to make everyone miserable too.

[Guest guest]

OHHH my goodness - my mother constantly went through my things too - and so

did my father, for that matter. My diary was literally an open book to them.

I was forbidden to have one with a lock. No matter how I tried to hide it,

one or the other of them would read it and often make angry and embarrassing

notations in it.

I really wasn't doing anything wrong in my life - no drugs, no alcohol, no

sex - my life consisted of school, studying a lot, and a touring singing

group I was in. But I expressed TONS of anger in my diaries, and also talked

about boys I had unrequited crushes on (sometimes getting mildly graphic),

and I also dared to write down what was really going on in my home, and I'd

come home to find my diary out from its hiding place, and written in the

margins of these particular entries were things like " LIES! " " LIAR! " " CHILD

FULL OF HATE! " " EVIL CHILD! " - stuff like that...

Eventually I started wondering what was true and what wasn't, and I still

find myself wondering that all these years later, even though I have a

memory like a steel trap, and I'm not delusional. It's just that FEELING of

" am I crazy and/or evil or am I not? " that has stayed with me forever, evn

through tons of therapy...

My mother also opened and read every piece of mail I receieved. And there

was one piece of mail that came every month with my name on it that she

wouldn't let me touch. Much later, when I was about 20, I defied her and

opened it, and saw it was a government check made out to me. Turns out that

when my father turned 65, the government sent me money every month. I never

saw a penny of it, and none of it was used for me, and certainly not for my

education, which I paid for myself.

I was a talented musician - and strongly pushed by my parents to become a

famous composer/concert pianist - who was provided with an out-of-tune piano

(and I had perfect pitch), not given the opportunity to go to the music

conservatory of my dreams (my parents refused to help me with the tuition

and I couldn't afford it by myself, even with the scholarship I was offered,

because it was in NYC and the school didn't have a dormitory - see, that's

when all that money the government sent me could have come in handy, if it

hadn't been spent on all sorts of other stuff like gold silverware and God

knows what else).

But the invasion - my mother would go through EVERYTHING of mine all the

time - my papers, my notebooks, my desk - you name it, she went through it.

If I protested, she'd say, " It's not YOUR house. It's MY house, and

everything in it is MINE. "

>

>

> you are so right, !! nada always went through our things..I caught

> her reading my sisters diary once !! and I know she listened to phone

> calls..yet she never was interested in our lives...

>

> Jackie

>

>

> Isn't it amazing how they do that? How they justify their behavior but will

> criticize someone else for the exact same behavior? I have never known of

> my mother to steal, but she did lie and she would invade my privacy to the

> point it was really INVASION. She would go through my things whether it be

> my mail or a diary when I lived at home. She listened in on phone calls.

> And yet, oddly, she was uninvolved in my life. She didn't have a

> relationship with me at all. She didn't want to go out to lunch or go

> shopping. She

> wanted to complain and whine and have me dote on her for whatever reason

> and

> feel sorry for her and let her tell me about all of the murders and rapes

> and horrible crimes being committed in the world because she couldn't turn

> off CNN.

>

> I don't get it. She was so obsessed and so....miserable. If you're UNHAPPY

> in your life, don't you set out to change that? Isn't that what people are

> supposed to do?

>

> Not BPD's. They just want to make everyone miserable too.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

yes, my nada would say the same things :-(

Jackie

But the invasion - my mother would go through EVERYTHING of mine all the

time - my papers, my notebooks, my desk - you name it, she went through it.

If I protested, she'd say, " It's not YOUR house. It's MY house, and

everything in it is MINE. "

[Guest guest]

Ditto here. No such thing as privacy of any sort. And, Jackie, it's so

true--to be so invasive and yet utterly disinterested. Interesting paradox.

-lisa

>

> you are so right, !! nada always went through our things..I caught

> her reading my sisters diary once !! and I know she listened to phone

> calls..yet she never was interested in our lives...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Isn't it amazing how they do that? How they justify their behavior but will

> criticize someone else for the exact same behavior? I have never known of

> my mother to steal, but she did lie and she would invade my privacy to the

> point it was really INVASION. She would go through my things whether it be

> my mail or a diary when I lived at home. She listened in on phone calls.

> And yet, oddly, she was uninvolved in my life. She didn't have a

> relationship with me at all. She didn't want to go out to lunch or go

> shopping. She

> wanted to complain and whine and have me dote on her for whatever reason

> and

> feel sorry for her and let her tell me about all of the murders and rapes

> and horrible crimes being committed in the world because she couldn't turn

> off CNN.

>

> I don't get it. She was so obsessed and so....miserable. If you're UNHAPPY

> in your life, don't you set out to change that? Isn't that what people are

> supposed to do?

>

> Not BPD's. They just want to make everyone miserable too.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can go one further.   " I gave you birth and I own you, body and soul, " said

Nada.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sun, March 7, 2010 2:33:48 PM

Subject: Re: Re: Sociopathic borderlines??

yes, my nada would say the same things :-(

Jackie

But the invasion - my mother would go through EVERYTHING of mine all the

time - my papers, my notebooks, my desk - you name it, she went through it.

If I protested, she'd say, " It's not YOUR house. It's MY house, and

everything in it is MINE. "

------------------------------------

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From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Welll - technically, yeah, parents do have a right to rummage through their

kids' rooms. But if they do so without regard for their (older) kids' sense of

privacy, they're making a big mistake. I reserve the right to go into my son's

room - but unless I suspect he's up to something, I don't go searching for

contraband. (The dirty laundry is another matter. It's concern for public

health that keeps me going in there. Ewwwwww.) And if a parent reads a child's

diary, I think it should ONLY be because there is a concern about references to

drug deals, gangs, stealing, or unprotected sex - teasing a girl about her

" crush " diary entries is just plain stupid. Even if a parent feels compelled to

dig for inside info (due to fears about their child's wellbeing), any personal

(but innocent) information gleaned should be treated with the sanctity of the

confessional. Ideally, the information pipeline is voluntarily open, and doesn't

require espionage. But even if you don't trust your kid, you don't harangue

them about non-criminal things you find.

>

> >

> >

> > you are so right, !! nada always went through our things..I caught

> > her reading my sisters diary once !! and I know she listened to phone

> > calls..yet she never was interested in our lives...

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> > Isn't it amazing how they do that? How they justify their behavior but will

> > criticize someone else for the exact same behavior? I have never known of

> > my mother to steal, but she did lie and she would invade my privacy to the

> > point it was really INVASION. She would go through my things whether it be

> > my mail or a diary when I lived at home. She listened in on phone calls.

> > And yet, oddly, she was uninvolved in my life. She didn't have a

> > relationship with me at all. She didn't want to go out to lunch or go

> > shopping. She

> > wanted to complain and whine and have me dote on her for whatever reason

> > and

> > feel sorry for her and let her tell me about all of the murders and rapes

> > and horrible crimes being committed in the world because she couldn't turn

> > off CNN.

> >

> > I don't get it. She was so obsessed and so....miserable. If you're UNHAPPY

> > in your life, don't you set out to change that? Isn't that what people are

> > supposed to do?

> >

> > Not BPD's. They just want to make everyone miserable too.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

my nada probably thought it, but I dont recall her ever saying it

Jackie

I can go one further. " I gave you birth and I own you, body and soul, "

said Nada.

[Guest guest]

it is weird..why do they want to know every intimate detail in our lives,

but when we talk to them, try to tell them whats going on in our lives,

they change the subject

Jackie

Ditto here. No such thing as privacy of any sort. And, Jackie, it's so

true--to be so invasive and yet utterly disinterested. Interesting paradox.

-lisa

[Guest guest]

At 05:09 PM 03/07/2010 More Private wrote:

>I can go one further. Â " I gave you birth and I own you,

>body and soul, " said Nada.

That seems to sum up how they feel about us.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

It is true: in some cases our bpd/mentally ill mothers see us as property. To

them, we are like an extra arm they grew: there is no difference between

themselves and their child. The bpds have no boundaries. You are merely an

object that they own.

This is definitely not a mentally healthy way of perceiving the mother-child

relationship.

It is OK to step away from that level of unhealthy enmeshment, because it is NOT

healthy and NOT normal.

Nobody who steps away from that kind of enmeshment is a bad person or a bad son

or a bad daughter. It is NOT wrong to protect yourself from unhealthy

enmeshment or abuse. It is NOT wrong to want your own, separate, independent

adult existence; on the contrary: it is your right as a human being to expect to

have that.

If your parent(s) were mentally healthy, they would want that for you: your

independence, your personal responsibility for yourself, your personal success

achieved by your personal effort, your joy, your having an adult relationship

with a wonderful life-partner /spouse and children of your own. That is the

legacy and the right of every individual human being on this planet, to have

this.

Normal, sane, mentally healthy parents actually WANT this for their children,

and help their children work toward achieving it.

-LOAnnie

>

> I can go one further.   " I gave you birth and I own you, body and soul, "

said Nada.

[Guest guest]

My mother went the guilt trip route when I became an adult. She would say,

" Well, I THOUGHT now that you were grown we could be FRIENDS, but I GUESS I

was wrong " whenever I attempted to squash HER attempts to control me.

Ugh!!!

And yes, she did things to my sister and I that she would never have

allowed her own mother to do -- nor did my grandmother want to do those things

to her. My grandmother let her have a life. It was odd because it was

actually my mother who had the $500 phone bill (even now that's huge, but my

dad

would FREAK and this was in the 80's!) because she called my grandmother so

much.

One thing that has always stood out to me with my mother is that she held

other people to standards that she herself did not meet. If you were gay you

were immoral, if you lived together before you were married you were

immoral, if you had sex before marriage you were immoral, people who drank were

not equal to her.

Funny thing is...she lived with my sister's father and never legally

divorced him. Her marriage to my father wasn't legal. She forged my sister's

birth certificate. She told my father before they were married she was

pregnant. Everyone in her family was an alcoholic and even she later turned to

drinking.

And yet I was expected to be perfect in every way as a teenager and young

adult, never to make mistakes and if I did make mistakes, I was belittled

and punished and ridiculed.

Amazing to me. Just amazing.

In a message dated 3/8/2010 7:28:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,

sleddog@... writes:

yes, that IS how they feel about us...but then, how come they dont allow

their parents to " own " them ?? my nada does things to us that she would

never have allowed HER parents to do to her !!

Jackie

>I can go one further. Â " I gave you birth and I own you,

>body and soul, " said Nada.

That seems to sum up how they feel about us.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

yes, that IS how they feel about us...but then, how come they dont allow

their parents to " own " them ?? my nada does things to us that she would

never have allowed HER parents to do to her !!

Jackie

>I can go one further. Â " I gave you birth and I own you,

>body and soul, " said Nada.

That seems to sum up how they feel about us.

--

Katrina

[Guest guest]

oh, , YES !! my nada was this way too !!

Jackie

One thing that has always stood out to me with my mother is that she held

other people to standards that she herself did not meet. If you were gay you

were immoral, if you lived together before you were married you were

immoral, if you had sex before marriage you were immoral, people who drank

were

not equal to her.

[Guest guest]

Because the Cluster B individual gets to make all the rules, and have all things

her own way, all the time. Remember the Cluster B motto: " Its Always All About

Me. "

more mottos:

" What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine. "

" Do as I say, not as I do. "

-Annie

>

> yes, that IS how they feel about us...but then, how come they dont allow

> their parents to " own " them ?? my nada does things to us that she would

> never have allowed HER parents to do to her !!

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> >I can go one further. Â " I gave you birth and I own you,

> >body and soul, " said Nada.

>

> That seems to sum up how they feel about us.

>

> --

> Katrina

>