Re: Sociopathic borderlines??

March 4, 2010

The other day I asked my boyfriend, " OK, is it weird that... " and he said " YES.

Whatever you are going to say, YES. " ha ha

What I was going to ask him was, " Is it weird that when I was a kid my nada told

me that when she would find wounded birds, she pulled their heads off 'so they

won't suffer' " .

Kind or sociopathic? Hmmmm I'm not sure.

Deanna

>

> Hi - just some thoughts running through my head this morning...

> As I've known so many borderlines in my life, some of them nice, kind, loyal

> and honest, some of them mean, vindictive, disloyal and dishonest, I was

> wondering if the borderlines in our lives that have hurt us so much have had

> a sociopathic element to them.

> Those of us who were raised by BPDS - were we raised by sociopaths?

> I know that not all sociopaths are murderers. My nada wasn't.

> But she did everything she could to murder my soul and my father's soul.

> Wouldn't a sociopath take absolute glee in being as mean and emotionally

> destructive to those around her as possible?

> I watch true crime shows a lot, and relate strongly to those of the " Deadly

> Women " variety - because those women remind me so strongly of my nada.

> Any thoughts on this sociopathic element?

> Judy Ariel

>

March 4, 2010

I can't answer for others and I do believe that there are some BPDs out there

that have some element of psychosis, but I don't believe most BPDs are

sociopaths. My nada may not give one lick about my feelings, but she can be very

empathetic about other people's feelings, and I believe most of the time it is

sincere. She also does have a conscience about many things. I don't think

sociopaths are capable of feeling remorse. That said, maybe a lot of nadas and

fadas are selective sociopaths in that they care about others but not their own

children! Or maybe they are just beyond self-absorbed. I don't know, just

thinking out loud here.

>

> Hi - just some thoughts running through my head this morning...

> As I've known so many borderlines in my life, some of them nice, kind, loyal

> and honest, some of them mean, vindictive, disloyal and dishonest, I was

> wondering if the borderlines in our lives that have hurt us so much have had

> a sociopathic element to them.

> Those of us who were raised by BPDS - were we raised by sociopaths?

> I know that not all sociopaths are murderers. My nada wasn't.

> But she did everything she could to murder my soul and my father's soul.

> Wouldn't a sociopath take absolute glee in being as mean and emotionally

> destructive to those around her as possible?

> I watch true crime shows a lot, and relate strongly to those of the " Deadly

> Women " variety - because those women remind me so strongly of my nada.

> Any thoughts on this sociopathic element?

> Judy Ariel

>

March 4, 2010

A good book is the Sociopath Next Door. Sociopathy means essentially a lack of

conscience. I never really know if my mom has one. When she is in witch mode I

can tell you she does not--and she takes pleasure in

physical/emotional/spiritual cruelty. In her hermit/queen mode I think she does

have a conscience. Why else would she spend so much time trying to convince me

she's really nice, or it didn't happen, or it's someone else's fault? My read

of true sociopath's is that they would bother with all the self-justification.

Also that they are not so emotional, and we all know our BPs are very emotional

and unstable.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Thu, March 4, 2010 11:05:01 AM

Subject: Sociopathic borderlines??

Hi - just some thoughts running through my head this morning...

As I've known so many borderlines in my life, some of them nice, kind, loyal

and honest, some of them mean, vindictive, disloyal and dishonest, I was

wondering if the borderlines in our lives that have hurt us so much have had

a sociopathic element to them.

Those of us who were raised by BPDS - were we raised by sociopaths?

I know that not all sociopaths are murderers. My nada wasn't.

But she did everything she could to murder my soul and my father's soul.

Wouldn't a sociopath take absolute glee in being as mean and emotionally

destructive to those around her as possible?

I watch true crime shows a lot, and relate strongly to those of the " Deadly

Women " variety - because those women remind me so strongly of my nada.

Any thoughts on this sociopathic element?

Judy Ariel

March 4, 2010

I am, that is SICK !!!

Jackie

What I was going to ask him was, " Is it weird that when I was a kid my nada

told me that when she would find wounded birds, she pulled their heads off

'so they won't suffer' " .

Kind or sociopathic? Hmmmm I'm not sure.

Deanna

March 4, 2010

I think some BPD's are sociopaths and some are not..I believe with the

viciousness of my nada, and the delight she got in abusing us little kids,

that she is a sociopath...she took two dogs to the dog pound, ( threatened a

third) just to hurt me..with no regard to what happens to dogs there,

especially owner turn ins...heaven only knows what reason she told them when

she did it...she delighted in mentally and physically abusing us, and it was

always OUR fault...we made her do it !!

Jackie

Hi - just some thoughts running through my head this morning...

As I've known so many borderlines in my life, some of them nice, kind, loyal

and honest, some of them mean, vindictive, disloyal and dishonest, I was

wondering if the borderlines in our lives that have hurt us so much have had

a sociopathic element to them.

Those of us who were raised by BPDS - were we raised by sociopaths?

I know that not all sociopaths are murderers. My nada wasn't.

But she did everything she could to murder my soul and my father's soul.

Wouldn't a sociopath take absolute glee in being as mean and emotionally

destructive to those around her as possible?

I watch true crime shows a lot, and relate strongly to those of the " Deadly

Women " variety - because those women remind me so strongly of my nada.

Any thoughts on this sociopathic element?

Judy Ariel

March 4, 2010

my nada does not have a conscious...she's never said or acted like she ever

regretted anything she's done..

Jackie

>I think some BPD's are sociopaths and some are not..I believe with the

>viciousness of my nada, and the delight she got in abusing us little kids,

>that she is a sociopath...she took two dogs to the dog pound, ( threatened

>a third) just to hurt me..with no regard to what happens to dogs there,

>especially owner turn ins...heaven only knows what reason she told them

>when she did it...she delighted in mentally and physically abusing us, and

>it was always OUR fault...we made her do it !!

>

> Jackie

March 4, 2010

I can go with that theory, myself: that some bpd individuals also have

antisocial pd traits (aka sociopathic or psychopathic pd traits) or a full-blown

co-morbidity with antisocial pd, and actually derive pleasure out of emotionally

or physically torturing other, smaller, helpless people. That is true bullying

behavior, and I have definitely seen that in my own nada (the " walking Cluster

B " ).

In the book " The Sociopath Next Door " , the author states that MOST sociopaths

are not the spectacular, news-headline grabbing kind, but are the neighbor who

may poison your dog because the barking annoys them, or the co-worker who

embezzles money from the company and makes it look like another employee did it,

or the relative who quietly molests all the little boys in the neighborhood as

well as his own nephews, or the mother who disseminates false rumors about her

adult son's wife so as to plant the seed of suspicion and jealousy in him and

(hopefully) destroy the marriage so her son will come back to her.

So, yeah, I buy that there are co-morbid bpd/aspds.

-Annie

>

> Hi - just some thoughts running through my head this morning...

> As I've known so many borderlines in my life, some of them nice, kind, loyal

> and honest, some of them mean, vindictive, disloyal and dishonest, I was

> wondering if the borderlines in our lives that have hurt us so much have had

> a sociopathic element to them.

> Those of us who were raised by BPDS - were we raised by sociopaths?

> I know that not all sociopaths are murderers. My nada wasn't.

> But she did everything she could to murder my soul and my father's soul.

> Wouldn't a sociopath take absolute glee in being as mean and emotionally

> destructive to those around her as possible?

> I watch true crime shows a lot, and relate strongly to those of the " Deadly

> Women " variety - because those women remind me so strongly of my nada.

> Any thoughts on this sociopathic element?

> Judy Ariel

>

March 4, 2010

mozzarella27, have you asked yourself how weird this sounds? You think your

nada can be very empathetic, just not towards her children? Something I think I

have noticed with my nada is that she can seem to empathize with someone who is

going through something she has been through herself. So sometimes I wonder if

that is a sort of lack of boundaries with her. Like, this person was almost

raped, how awful because *I* was almost raped. A weird thing is she would not

let me go tubing down the river with a group of people because I might DIE and a

couple years later she was THRILLED that I was flying to Europe BY MYSELF. Why?

She was excited because SHE had been to Paris and London. If she hadn't been, I

imagine she would have blown up and forbidden me to go.

The thing is, a woman who has no compassion for *her own child*....for you to

convince me she is an all-around empathetic person, gosh, I don't know if I can

buy that. Does that make sense?

Deanna

>

> I can't answer for others and I do believe that there are some BPDs out there

that have some element of psychosis, but I don't believe most BPDs are

sociopaths. My nada may not give one lick about my feelings, but she can be very

empathetic about other people's feelings, and I believe most of the time it is

sincere. She also does have a conscience about many things. I don't think

sociopaths are capable of feeling remorse. That said, maybe a lot of nadas and

fadas are selective sociopaths in that they care about others but not their own

children! Or maybe they are just beyond self-absorbed. I don't know, just

thinking out loud here.

>

March 4, 2010

There is a difference between sadism and sociopathic behavior. Some sociopaths

are sadistic and others are not. I'm pretty sure my dad is a sociopath. He has

an interest in power, but not any particular interest in causing pain. He ends

up causing pain to others because he just wants what he wants when he wants it

and feels entitled to get it--whether or not this comes at the expense of

someone else is not of any particular concern to him. He doesn't have a

conscience and has a very limited capacity for empathy--if any. In general, his

emotions are extremely flat. I have never really seen him very angry or sad,

and I have never really seen him very happy, either.

My mom, on the other hand, is a borderline and has a sincere desire to cause

pain to others because she finds projecting, blaming, and scapegoating very

soothing coping methods for her in dealing with her considerable, intense

negative emotions. She does have a conscience and there are occasional moments

when the denial she spends most of her time in begins to slip, and then she's

overwhelmed with guilt and feels worthless, which basically starts the cycle all

over again because those are emotions she cannot handle and so she resorts to

some of the same coping mechanisms.

The difference between the two of my parents for me is that my mother murdered

my soul purposefully and intentionally. My dad did it more or less

accidentally--just because it was there and it was in his way. He had no real

intent to destroy it, nor does he have any real regrets about it. Of the two, I

find my dad much more chilling. I can almost understand really wanting to hurt

someone. I can see how my mother would have justified it to herself and how it

could have temporarily made her feel better. But it's very hard for me to grasp

hurting someone and really having no opinion about it.

Best,

Ashana

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March 4, 2010

Hi Judy

I have been watching those true crime shows too; I am not sure why because they

used

to bother me. I guess after watching Dexter from HBO I got sort of fascinated.

But that

one: Deadly Women, definitely reminds me of the whole BPD. My thought is that

these personality

disorders most likely overlap and sociopathic behavior can come and go in these

people. Perhaps

not a total sociopath but have a sort of break from reality into that behavior.

And of course some

of them really are sociopaths.

Normal people sometimes struggle with their behavior, so I can see how someone

who has no internal,

or limited, control, would break into murderous behavior. And be so arrogant as

to think she would

not get caught or not be blamed. Or deluded might be a better word, thinking

the world exists just

to please them.

~patricia

Sociopathic borderlines??

Hi - just some thoughts running through my head this morning...

As I've known so many borderlines in my life, some of them nice, kind, loyal

and honest, some of them mean, vindictive, disloyal and dishonest, I was

wondering if the borderlines in our lives that have hurt us so much have had

a sociopathic element to them.

Those of us who were raised by BPDS - were we raised by sociopaths?

I know that not all sociopaths are murderers. My nada wasn't.

But she did everything she could to murder my soul and my father's soul.

Wouldn't a sociopath take absolute glee in being as mean and emotionally

destructive to those around her as possible?

I watch true crime shows a lot, and relate strongly to those of the " Deadly

Women " variety - because those women remind me so strongly of my nada.

Any thoughts on this sociopathic element?

Judy Ariel

March 4, 2010

Deanna,

It didn't sound weird to me what Mozz said. To me, it seems like the empathy

mechanism in at least some bpds is not just completely broken. The capacity is

there, even if it's a little jacked up. But it has these enormous and

catastrophic failures caused by fundamental weaknesses in the whole system.

It's like the elevator in my building. It's about 100 years old, and one part

or another is continually coming apart. It does have the potential to work, and

it does work for several months at a time. It's just that in-between, you risk

getting stuck in the elevator because you never know when the next part will go.

In bpds, the catastrophic failures tend to occur with close relationships. This

is not to say that they are overall, kind, empathetic people--just that they

have some capacity, under some circumstances to understand the experiences of

others. I don't think it would be an important difference except that there are

actually people who have no capacity for empathy at all, and they really are a

species apart from those who have a capacity for empathy that is prone to

failure and breakdown.

Best,

Ashana

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.

http://in.yahoo.com/

March 4, 2010

It seems possible to me based on the information in the texts that I have read

and the idea that it doesn't exist in a vacuum. But does it work based on the

limited ability to navigate the emotional realm like BPD? In BPD's it reads like

the emotionality is overwhelming, but in Sociopaths it points to a lack of

emotion or empathy. That is a really good question.

I know my mother runs the narcissistic side of things, but my ex is very much

the lack of empathy type and yet I would swear I married my mother when I

married him.

She seems overwhelmed by the desperation of her emotional depth which excludes

her being able to relate to anyone else's needs or pain, and he will simply tell

you straight to your face it doesn't matter how you feel, all that matters is

how HE feels.

In both cases what ever you are feeling or whatever your needs might be...is

irrelevant to them.

I think I'll have to watch this thread and see what you all decide. I'm curious

now, especially since I have suspicions of my own.

>

> Hi - just some thoughts running through my head this morning...

> As I've known so many borderlines in my life, some of them nice, kind, loyal

> and honest, some of them mean, vindictive, disloyal and dishonest, I was

> wondering if the borderlines in our lives that have hurt us so much have had

> a sociopathic element to them.

> Those of us who were raised by BPDS - were we raised by sociopaths?

> I know that not all sociopaths are murderers. My nada wasn't.

> But she did everything she could to murder my soul and my father's soul.

> Wouldn't a sociopath take absolute glee in being as mean and emotionally

> destructive to those around her as possible?

> I watch true crime shows a lot, and relate strongly to those of the " Deadly

> Women " variety - because those women remind me so strongly of my nada.

> Any thoughts on this sociopathic element?

> Judy Ariel

>

March 4, 2010

Yes, I do think it's weird. My point wasn't that she's an all around empathetic

person (I wasn't even trying to say she is one), my point was that she's not a

sociopath b/c she CAN feel empathy, even if it's only in certain situations. Her

lack of empathy for me has caused me countless emotional problems. You do bring

something up that I have not really thought about before- she is only empathetic

to people who are in situations she identifies with. And she has been weird in

letting me do and not do things inconsistently. Like she wouldn't let me drive

with my boyfriend of 2 years around town in high school even though he was a

really good guy and she knew his family. But she DID let me got to Hollywood one

night with two guys I just met and she didn't know. WTF????

> >

> > I can't answer for others and I do believe that there are some BPDs out

there that have some element of psychosis, but I don't believe most BPDs are

sociopaths. My nada may not give one lick about my feelings, but she can be very

empathetic about other people's feelings, and I believe most of the time it is

sincere. She also does have a conscience about many things. I don't think

sociopaths are capable of feeling remorse. That said, maybe a lot of nadas and

fadas are selective sociopaths in that they care about others but not their own

children! Or maybe they are just beyond self-absorbed. I don't know, just

thinking out loud here.

> >

>

March 5, 2010

I'm sure my nada has a conscience. What she lacks is the ability

to see that her conscience should bother her for many of the

things she's done. Often, she twists things around in her mind

to the point where she believes that she was wronged rather than

believing the truth, that she wronged other people. Other times

she is so wrapped up in getting what she wants that she just

doesn't see how much damage she's inflicting on others in the

process of doing what she wants. Occasionally she realizes how

much collateral damage she's caused and seems to feel sorry for

it. That doesn't make her alter her behavior though. There's a

disconnect between her ability to see the bad results of what

she's done and her ability to make decisions that avoid doing it

again.

At 12:53 PM 03/04/2010 More Private wrote:

>A good book is the Sociopath Next Door. Sociopathy means

>essentially a lack of conscience. I never really know if my

>mom has one. When she is in witch mode I can tell you she does

>not--and she takes pleasure in physical/emotional/spiritual

>cruelty. In her hermit/queen mode I think she does have a

>conscience. Why else would she spend so much time trying to

>convince me she's really nice, or it didn't happen, or it's

>someone else's fault? My read of true sociopath's is that they

>would bother with all the self-justification. Also that they

>are not so emotional, and we all know our BPs are very

>emotional and unstable.

--

Katrina

March 5, 2010

Very interesting: the common thread being the irrelevancy of others' emotions to

the borderline/narcissist.

Perhaps it has to do with the idea of a bpd/npd can feel empathy with/compassion

for another person's pain as long as she identifies in some way with the

sufferer, so its like she is pouring out empathy towards herself?

I saved this excerpt I read at another WTO Group because it struck me as being

very logical:

WTOTransition , " scrambled75 " wrote:

" I have posted this before but it may be worth saying again. It is

something I read in Skerritt's book 'Meaning from Madness'.

Basically, borderlines and narcissists live in great fear of being negatively

judged by others so they project an image they feel will be acceptable (i.e.

mirroring). But they will only do this so long as you fall outside their

definition of 'self'. Once you fall within their definition of 'self' (i.e.

through marriage or the like) they are no longer motivated to impress you, but

to control you so that you ALSO project that image to those outside. All

perceived flaws must be eradicated.

I don't think it is a case of them consciously choosing when to be nice and when

to be nasty. In general, they will appear to be nice so long as you are on the

outside. "

Food for thought, at any rate.

-Annie

> >

> > Hi - just some thoughts running through my head this morning...

> > As I've known so many borderlines in my life, some of them nice, kind, loyal

> > and honest, some of them mean, vindictive, disloyal and dishonest, I was

> > wondering if the borderlines in our lives that have hurt us so much have had

> > a sociopathic element to them.

> > Those of us who were raised by BPDS - were we raised by sociopaths?

> > I know that not all sociopaths are murderers. My nada wasn't.

> > But she did everything she could to murder my soul and my father's soul.

> > Wouldn't a sociopath take absolute glee in being as mean and emotionally

> > destructive to those around her as possible?

> > I watch true crime shows a lot, and relate strongly to those of the " Deadly

> > Women " variety - because those women remind me so strongly of my nada.

> > Any thoughts on this sociopathic element?

> > Judy Ariel

> >

March 5, 2010

Sigh. I cannot believe I am wading into this one - Deanna, did your mom grow up

on a farm? The reason I'm asking is that, as a child, I spent some summers on

my grandma's farm, and some of the stuff that horrified my little suburban mind

was just part of life in the country - i.e., if you don't go kill the chicken,

you don't get fried chicken for Sunday dinner. And breaking its neck (the

sudden jerk your mother describes) is faster - and therefore kinder - than the

alternative available to a farm wife.

Kind of like that horrible, nightmare-inducing scene in " Old Yeller " - I still

can't think about it without cringing, but farmers have to develop different

attitudes toward livestock and even their farm dogs. If an animal is suffering,

they don't wait for the vet to show up. They do what they have to do, with the

tools at hand.

So, in my ongoing (and usually futile) attempt to find logical reasons for some

of our Nadas' behaviors, I would propose that if she were a farm girl, maybe she

was really doing the fastest, most compassionate thing. Otherwise, yeah, it's

pretty creepy.

>

> I am, that is SICK !!!

>

> Jackie

>

> What I was going to ask him was, " Is it weird that when I was a kid my nada

> told me that when she would find wounded birds, she pulled their heads off

> 'so they won't suffer' " .

>

> Kind or sociopathic? Hmmmm I'm not sure.

>

> Deanna

>

March 5, 2010

If you think of a conscience as the thing that prevents a person from doing

something wrong or unethical simply because it *is* wrong or unethical, *even

if* the person could clearly get away with doing the wrong, unethical thing, and

*even if* the person wants VERY intensely to do the wrong/unethical thing, then,

I'm not sure that my bpd/npd mom has a conscience.

Her emotional needs of the moment *always* override her conscience, particularly

when it comes to venting her rage which she has *promised faithfully* on

countless occasions to not do again.

Plus, other smaller things like, if a cashier at a store gives her too much

change, she doesn't do the ethical thing and give the excess change back. She

even told me once that she used to flirt with boys in school so that they would

do her homework for her. (Is that all, mom? Just " flirting " ?) She even seemed

proud that she'd pulled off some of these minor cheats and cons. She seems to

feel quite comfortable with rewriting history, more commonly referred to as

" lying " , in any way that will allow her to win an argument or come out as the

victim in a given situation.

Well, either she is consciously lying or she is so cognitively impaired that her

reality is 180 degrees tilted from objective reality so that she never causes

any problems she is experiencing, its always due to other people.

So... I'm on the fence, here. I really can't say whether she has no conscience

or she's just so cognitively wacked that her reality exists in some alternate

universe to my reality, and never the twain shall meet.

-Annie

>

> I'm sure my nada has a conscience. What she lacks is the ability

> to see that her conscience should bother her for many of the

> things she's done. Often, she twists things around in her mind

> to the point where she believes that she was wronged rather than

> believing the truth, that she wronged other people. Other times

> she is so wrapped up in getting what she wants that she just

> doesn't see how much damage she's inflicting on others in the

> process of doing what she wants. Occasionally she realizes how

> much collateral damage she's caused and seems to feel sorry for

> it. That doesn't make her alter her behavior though. There's a

> disconnect between her ability to see the bad results of what

> she's done and her ability to make decisions that avoid doing it

> again.

March 5, 2010

, yes, she did grow up on a small farm. I'm not talking about animals that

are under her care though, just about a wild bird that she might find in her

backyard. On the other hand, I had injured cats that she refused to take to the

vet because she didn't want to spend the money. And of course, the times I was

in pain and she wouldn't help me either. So who knows? Thanks for the insight

though; that makes sense.

Deanna

> >

> > I am, that is SICK !!!

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> > What I was going to ask him was, " Is it weird that when I was a kid my nada

> > told me that when she would find wounded birds, she pulled their heads off

> > 'so they won't suffer' " .

> >

> > Kind or sociopathic? Hmmmm I'm not sure.

> >

> > Deanna

> >

>

March 5, 2010

Annie, so far this makes the most sense, I think. It seems to me that this

suggests that when they are showing compassion, they are doing it to put up a

front, really.

I know everyone is different. Some people here have experienced a BPD parent

who really seems to be remorseful at times (I think you said that of your nada).

Some experience a BPD parent who does not show remorse. I personally have not

seen my nada show remorse, with the exception of one time when she yelled at me

for nothing when I was a teenager. Then she bought me a balloon, and put it in

my bedroom. She didn't apologize, but that was the closest she has come.

Deanna

> > >

> > > Hi - just some thoughts running through my head this morning...

> > > As I've known so many borderlines in my life, some of them nice, kind,

loyal

> > > and honest, some of them mean, vindictive, disloyal and dishonest, I was

> > > wondering if the borderlines in our lives that have hurt us so much have

had

> > > a sociopathic element to them.

> > > Those of us who were raised by BPDS - were we raised by sociopaths?

> > > I know that not all sociopaths are murderers. My nada wasn't.

> > > But she did everything she could to murder my soul and my father's soul.

> > > Wouldn't a sociopath take absolute glee in being as mean and emotionally

> > > destructive to those around her as possible?

> > > I watch true crime shows a lot, and relate strongly to those of the

" Deadly

> > > Women " variety - because those women remind me so strongly of my nada.

> > > Any thoughts on this sociopathic element?

> > > Judy Ariel

> > >

March 5, 2010

The best therapist I had once told me that the woman he thought he was going to

marry killed a bird. They were running late and the bird was clearly in pain

and/or dying. She grabbed a shovel and killed it. He said, " I'm convinced that

that instance is why I couldn't marry her. "

That has to have some deeper implications than just not wanting to see it

suffer.

> > >

> > > I am, that is SICK !!!

> > >

> > > Jackie

> > >

> > > What I was going to ask him was, " Is it weird that when I was a kid my

nada

> > > told me that when she would find wounded birds, she pulled their heads off

> > > 'so they won't suffer' " .

> > >

> > > Kind or sociopathic? Hmmmm I'm not sure.

> > >

> > > Deanna

> > >

> >

>

March 5, 2010

Deanna - It does seems like her compassion (even if it were of the " farm "

variety) would have extended to the cats as well. I know my grandparents (the

farmers) would not have let ANY creature - domestic or wild - suffer if they

could put a stop to it. It was my Grandpa's ethic as a hunter and a farmer.

Anyway - considering that your mom's method of choice was to yank the suffering

creature's head off, maybe it's just as well that she did NOT extend her

compassion to you when you were sick, KWIM?

March 5, 2010

HA ! Well put!

>

> Deanna - It does seems like her compassion (even if it were of the " farm "

variety) would have extended to the cats as well. I know my grandparents (the

farmers) would not have let ANY creature - domestic or wild - suffer if they

could put a stop to it. It was my Grandpa's ethic as a hunter and a farmer.

Anyway - considering that your mom's method of choice was to yank the suffering

creature's head off, maybe it's just as well that she did NOT extend her

compassion to you when you were sick, KWIM?

>

March 5, 2010

my nada is very much like yours...but I really doubt mine has a

conscience..she has stolen ( shop lifted), then when I called her on it..had

a " reason " why it was OK for her to do it..she doesn't care if she hurts us,

she doesn't promise to do better, because she doesn't care enough to

bother...she thinks she's entitled to do what she does to whoever she does

it to...SHE is allowed to do these things, but no one is allowed to do any

of it to her !! Nada never has ever had any remorse for what she's done or

said...she has never apologized..if called on something, she'll just say

something like " you are too thin skinned " but YOU become evil if you ever

do anything of the kind to her !!

Jackie

If you think of a conscience as the thing that prevents a person from doing

something wrong or unethical simply because it *is* wrong or unethical,

*even if* the person could clearly get away with doing the wrong, unethical

thing, and *even if* the person wants VERY intensely to do the

wrong/unethical thing, then, I'm not sure that my bpd/npd mom has a

conscience.

Her emotional needs of the moment *always* override her conscience,

particularly when it comes to venting her rage which she has *promised

faithfully* on countless occasions to not do again.

Plus, other smaller things like, if a cashier at a store gives her too much

change, she doesn't do the ethical thing and give the excess change back.

She even told me once that she used to flirt with boys in school so that

they would do her homework for her. (Is that all, mom? Just " flirting " ?) She

even seemed proud that she'd pulled off some of these minor cheats and cons.

She seems to feel quite comfortable with rewriting history, more commonly

referred to as " lying " , in any way that will allow her to win an argument or

come out as the victim in a given situation.

Well, either she is consciously lying or she is so cognitively impaired that

her reality is 180 degrees tilted from objective reality so that she never

causes any problems she is experiencing, its always due to other people.

So... I'm on the fence, here. I really can't say whether she has no

conscience or she's just so cognitively wacked that her reality exists in

some alternate universe to my reality, and never the twain shall meet.