Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

[Guest guest]

Ninera, that is just awful. I am SOOO familiar with the whole " everybody look

at how wonderful I am because my daughter is a woman of God " and " I hate my

daughter because she reflects back to me what a poser I am at church! "

Ack. And she can't even get the tampons to you.

> > > >

> > > > my nada called one day several years ago and said

> > she had figured out the

> > > > perfect plan for all of us !!  My hubby and

> > I had been wondering where we'd

> > > > go when he retires in 2014 or 15....she said we

> > should sell our house here,

> > > > move in with them ( they live 425 north in

> > another state)..sell the horses,

> > > > sell our vehicles as we could use theirs, and

> > hubby could take care of the

> > > > house and yard, and I would take care of the

> > inside of the house and them !!

> > > > she said they'd even consider putting up a small

> > fenced area in the yard (

> > > > they have a normal sized town lot, and I had 2

> > dogs over 100 pounds!!) for

> > > > the dogs !!!  Their house is smaller than my

> > house here, theirs is 1100 sq

> > > > ft...and four people will live there ??  she

> > said we'd have to get rid of

> > > > all of our stuff, of course!!  the funny

> > thing is they did NOT take care of

> > > > their elderly parents or her older siblings at

> > all !!  yet she expects that

> > > > I will do this ( just me, not any of my siblings

> > either !!)

> > > >

> > > > Jackie

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Oh, boy, I can really relate.  I was having

> > a conversation with my mother

> > > > once (years ago, when I still had " real "

> > conversations with her) - about the

> > > > plans my husband and I had made for careers,

> > retirement, etc. - and she

> > > > asked, " well, how much of this am I entitled to? "

> > - It caught me off-guard.

> > > > I said, " I'm talking about OUR retirement. 

> > You aren't ENTITLED to any part

> > > > of it. "   She became very upset and started

> > lecturing me about how she had

> > > > cared for HER mother, grandmother, and disabled

> > sister (she did provide

> > > > respite care and financial support when she was

> > able, but they lived

> > > > independently, too) - I realized that she had

> > been raised to think she was

> > > > responsible for her entire family, and was

> > expecting me to have the same

> > > > mindset.  She was bitterly disappointed that

> > I did not see myself as her

> > > > caretaker.  She's tried to force me into

> > that role for years, while I kicked

> > > > and struggled, moved across country, and guarded

> > my credit rating with my

> > > > life.  She's tried to get me to co-sign

> > dozens of loans, cellphone

> > > > contracts, insurance policies, furniture

> > purchases, etc.  She wants me to go

> > > > clean her house, take her to every doctor's

> > appointment, help her write the

> > > > monthly utility bill checks, buy everybody

> > Christmas gifts in her name, and

> > > > basically be at her beck and call at all

> > times.  She just can't accept that

> > > > I don't agree to put my life at her

> > service.  This makes me a very bad

> > > > daughter, in her eyes.

> > > >

> > > > I have teased my son that I want him to get a

> > good education so he can buy

> > > > me a condo in Florida - but he knows I'm

> > kidding.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @...

> > SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> > GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> > 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> > “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> > “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> > and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Okay, funny story: Nada told me this one before I went NC.

At 67 years old, she ran into the bedroom and exclaimed (hysterical) to fada:

" I haven't started saving for retirement!!! What am I going to do?!!! "

Karla

> > > > >

> > > > > my nada called one day several years ago and said

> > > she had figured out the

> > > > > perfect plan for all of us !!  My hubby and

> > > I had been wondering where we'd

> > > > > go when he retires in 2014 or 15....she said we

> > > should sell our house here,

> > > > > move in with them ( they live 425 north in

> > > another state)..sell the horses,

> > > > > sell our vehicles as we could use theirs, and

> > > hubby could take care of the

> > > > > house and yard, and I would take care of the

> > > inside of the house and them !!

> > > > > she said they'd even consider putting up a small

> > > fenced area in the yard (

> > > > > they have a normal sized town lot, and I had 2

> > > dogs over 100 pounds!!) for

> > > > > the dogs !!!  Their house is smaller than my

> > > house here, theirs is 1100 sq

> > > > > ft...and four people will live there ??  she

> > > said we'd have to get rid of

> > > > > all of our stuff, of course!!  the funny

> > > thing is they did NOT take care of

> > > > > their elderly parents or her older siblings at

> > > all !!  yet she expects that

> > > > > I will do this ( just me, not any of my siblings

> > > either !!)

> > > > >

> > > > > Jackie

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Oh, boy, I can really relate.  I was having

> > > a conversation with my mother

> > > > > once (years ago, when I still had " real "

> > > conversations with her) - about the

> > > > > plans my husband and I had made for careers,

> > > retirement, etc. - and she

> > > > > asked, " well, how much of this am I entitled to? "

> > > - It caught me off-guard.

> > > > > I said, " I'm talking about OUR retirement. 

> > > You aren't ENTITLED to any part

> > > > > of it. "   She became very upset and started

> > > lecturing me about how she had

> > > > > cared for HER mother, grandmother, and disabled

> > > sister (she did provide

> > > > > respite care and financial support when she was

> > > able, but they lived

> > > > > independently, too) - I realized that she had

> > > been raised to think she was

> > > > > responsible for her entire family, and was

> > > expecting me to have the same

> > > > > mindset.  She was bitterly disappointed that

> > > I did not see myself as her

> > > > > caretaker.  She's tried to force me into

> > > that role for years, while I kicked

> > > > > and struggled, moved across country, and guarded

> > > my credit rating with my

> > > > > life.  She's tried to get me to co-sign

> > > dozens of loans, cellphone

> > > > > contracts, insurance policies, furniture

> > > purchases, etc.  She wants me to go

> > > > > clean her house, take her to every doctor's

> > > appointment, help her write the

> > > > > monthly utility bill checks, buy everybody

> > > Christmas gifts in her name, and

> > > > > basically be at her beck and call at all

> > > times.  She just can't accept that

> > > > > I don't agree to put my life at her

> > > service.  This makes me a very bad

> > > > > daughter, in her eyes.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have teased my son that I want him to get a

> > > good education so he can buy

> > > > > me a condo in Florida - but he knows I'm

> > > kidding.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @

> > > SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> > > GROUP.

> > >

> > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> > > 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> > > “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> > > “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> > > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > >

> > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> > > and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

thanks ,

I said no once...the other times I just change the subject.. nada and I have

never gotten along very well from the start, but of course it was probably

only me who was stressed out, because her word is and will always be

law..and fada defends her to the end..LOL no, living with them under any

circumstance would never work...and I'm afraid, even though I'm not a

violent person, that I may end up being abusive to her ( and probably

both) they were mean hateful and a bully to us when we were defenseless

children..I may give her a taste of her own medicine...

Jackie

Jackie, it is mind boggling to me that your nada wants that - good on you

for saying NO, over and over, as many times as it takes! The entitlement

really is breathtaking. How on earth she can imagine that you and your

husband would want to go from independent adults with your own home to being

SERFS on her property is incomprehensible!

[Guest guest]

May I make one, most humble observation?

" . . . and feel like a heartless bitch. "

Make that a HEALTHY, STRONG, WONDERFUL heartless bitch WITH HARD-WON

***BOUNDARIES!! THAT THE REST OF US ARE STRIVING FOR!****

I hate those no-win situations. No matter what, they are frustrating.

But I do have to honor you--you are far ahead of the game as a non!! I know it

feels like crap (as well it should) but you are clearly winning on this one.

She's the only boo-hoo-ing loser.

Good for you--may we all be so " heartless " as to let ourselves be human and not

manipulated.

Blessings,

Karla

> > >

> > > I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

> > >

> > > But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to

live the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her.

So I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

> > >

> > > I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for

the past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, I'm so glad I joined. My Nada started training me when I was 5 that I

would need to take care of her forever and that only wicked people don't let

their mother's live with them. I am the only true survivor in my

family--financially and mentally healthy. But I remember getthing very upset

when I started making money. " she's going to try to get it " I told my husband.

Anyway, after 35 years of marriage my dysfunctional but sweet not BP father

finally read stop walking on eggshells when I sent it to him. Now his light

bulb has gone off (which is great--finally honest acknowledgement of his failre

to protect) but he is not long from divorce. I think sh'e going to end up my

problem, or at least it feels that way. I'm dreading when themoney demands

start.After all, any good thing or accomplishment in my life is not mine, it's

hers. My money is too, of course.,

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Wed, March 3, 2010 4:55:41 PM

Subject: Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

Another WOW here! The fantasy that I would buy a fancy house with a

mother-in-law type guest house attached to it for her to live in was huge for

her. And that of course would include me paying for all that and moving her

across the country to be in it. When I finally told her that was never ever

going to happen, her reaction was so horrifying to me that I went NC with her.

She believed my academic and career success meant a huge bonanza for *her*.

Never mind that my success in school was done all on my own with scholarships,

she never paid a dime. Never mind all the undermining. Every bit of that

success happened in spite of her. And ironically my loss of all that happened

in part because of the fleas I got from her and just the weak foundation in my

life. There was no support network if I fell, just hard concrete and I

shattered. And since I did she still occasionally tries to get me to cosign

something or acts like I'm in a position to

do a lot for her.

No one warns poor kids - especially if they are from dysfunctional families -

that if they do work really hard in school and actually succeed in the dream of

becoming successful that there is a real risk of their FOO's latching on to them

expecting to be brought along. I'm not saying poor kids shouldn't try to

succeed for their own sake, but I wish I'd understood that my doing well would

only intensify the level of what my nada wanted from me. Still for me to do

badly enough that she would finally not see me as a resource for her would

sentence me to a pretty terrible life and I *don't* want that.

I see this thread has hit a chord with a lot of others here - it means so much

to be able to write about this here and know you guys understand. I'm sorry so

many of you go have gone through the same things. It's like we get these

mothers who do the minimum possible and worse and yet they expect to get these

super-daughters who give them everything. It's crazy.

HUGS to all of you.

> >

> > my nada called one day several years ago and said she had figured out the

> > perfect plan for all of us !! My hubby and I had been wondering where we'd

> > go when he retires in 2014 or 15....she said we should sell our house here,

> > move in with them ( they live 425 north in another state)..sell the horses,

> > sell our vehicles as we could use theirs, and hubby could take care of the

> > house and yard, and I would take care of the inside of the house and them !!

> > she said they'd even consider putting up a small fenced area in the yard (

> > they have a normal sized town lot, and I had 2 dogs over 100 pounds!!) for

> > the dogs !!! Their house is smaller than my house here, theirs is 1100 sq

> > ft...and four people will live there ?? she said we'd have to get rid of

> > all of our stuff, of course!! the funny thing is they did NOT take care of

> > their elderly parents or her older siblings at all !! yet she expects that

> > I will do this ( just me, not any of my siblings either !!)

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > Oh, boy, I can really relate. I was having a conversation with my mother

> > once (years ago, when I still had " real " conversations with her) - about the

> > plans my husband and I had made for careers, retirement, etc. - and she

> > asked, " well, how much of this am I entitled to? " - It caught me off-guard.

> > I said, " I'm talking about OUR retirement. You aren't ENTITLED to any part

> > of it. " She became very upset and started lecturing me about how she had

> > cared for HER mother, grandmother, and disabled sister (she did provide

> > respite care and financial support when she was able, but they lived

> > independently, too) - I realized that she had been raised to think she was

> > responsible for her entire family, and was expecting me to have the same

> > mindset. She was bitterly disappointed that I did not see myself as her

> > caretaker. She's tried to force me into that role for years, while I kicked

> > and struggled, moved across country, and guarded my credit rating with my

> > life. She's tried to get me to co-sign dozens of loans, cellphone

> > contracts, insurance policies, furniture purchases, etc. She wants me to go

> > clean her house, take her to every doctor's appointment, help her write the

> > monthly utility bill checks, buy everybody Christmas gifts in her name, and

> > basically be at her beck and call at all times. She just can't accept that

> > I don't agree to put my life at her service. This makes me a very bad

> > daughter, in her eyes.

> >

> > I have teased my son that I want him to get a good education so he can buy

> > me a condo in Florida - but he knows I'm kidding.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Annie,Karla is right!!!

It might not seem like it,but your behavior here is actually virtuous.It

is virtuous not to allow oneself to be manipulated for another person's ends.It

is virtuous to devote one's sympathy to those who are genuinely in need of it

rather than to waste it on those who seek only to vampirize our sympathy for

themselves.It is also virtuous not to enable people like your nada whose tears

are part of a pattern of self-serving dysfunction instead of a true recognition

of wrong doing or a true desire to make amends and stick to them.

Being neutral in a situation like this doesn't make you heartless,it's

chosing the option of sanity for yourself and that is a virtue!!!!!! (and I

didn't come up with this,I believe the Stoics did: according to them as I

recall,enlightened self interest such as the conscious choice of neutrality for

ourselves is a civic duty that we perform for the benefit of all of society--and

indulging in or catering to either our own or another's unhealthy passions

eventually leads us all down the road of ruin and insanity...if only we could

all be so personally virtuous....)

> >

> > To me, the waifyness in my nada is just another manipulation tactic I have

now mostly grown an immunity to.

> >

> > It does still tend to make me feel like I'm being cruel and heartless to

ignore her (very real, in the moment) sobbing and contrition, but I've been

shown way too many times in the past that her feelings of remorse or sadness can

flip off like a light switch if she becomes triggered into rage again.

> >

> > When I was a little kid, I had to " shut off " my feelings and go numb and

passive (dissociate) when she'd rage at me and beat me (my screaming in terror

and crying just made her more enraged) so, I can now utilize the same " shut off "

mechanism when she turns on the waterworks.

> >

> > Let me be clear that I don't mock her, I don't rage at her, I don't call her

names, I don't hit her, I just simply do not respond: I am neutral.

> >

> > I don't feel guilty (well, not very much) and I don't feel a need to make

her feel better; not any more. She used this tactic on me for decades, and I

did feel very guilty and I did respond to her in empathy and try to make her

feel better. But now I recognize it as a pattern, a well-established pattern of

behavior in our relationship, and its just not healthy.

> >

> > With my nada, her tears and apologies are mostly a way to avoid negative

consequences to her behaviors. It used to effectively shut off any expression

of anger toward her on my part, any hurt on my part, and all the trauma and

damage done by her was supposed to be instantly erased by her tearful apology.

> >

> > And, well, yes, that is the way its supposed to work in a normal

relationship with a normal, non-pd person, but with a pd individual like my

nada, the crying and and the blubbering apology is only genuine in that moment,

and the remorse and the promises evaporate in the next instant when she's

triggered (by God knows what) into another rage.

> >

> > So, again, as always in my life, I am in a no-win situation. I can either

accept my nada's apologies and tear-streaked remorse and " make up " with her only

to be punched in the gut again later, when she " forgets " about promising to

never to do/say that again (sort of like Charlie Brown and Lucy and the football

routine) OR I can just be neutral and ignore her when she's sad and remorseful

and feel like a heartless bitch.

> >

> > (((((sigh)))))

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My Witch nada never turned on the waterworks to me.The Witch does

not,ever,express even an erstaz remorse directly to her victims.She will only

pretend to cry pitiable or contrite tears to an audience if she thinks that

might save HER OWN skin.Think of shedding those crocodile tears on

television while she knew damn well those babies were dead at the bottom of a

lake.

And like ,what the Witch does is pull out the Waif card and

deal it out to win her own game,such as picking a vulnerable target for

scapegoat like " the Black man who carjacked me " --and she doesn't care if every

innocent Black man in the county is arrested for the crime she knows she

committed,as long as everyone sees her as the helpless Waif and she will play

her game as dirty as she thinks she needs to.

My own nada wouldn't have been above stooping to a similar low if she

thought she had to.I am NC with her for good and there is nothing she can say or

do that is going to change that now.

She used me,a small helpless child,as the scapegoat in order to be

perceived by the " public " as a hapless Waif.Over and over and over

again.Enlisting others as she did to participate in her dirty work has left me

with multiple traumas to sort out.What I didn't see clearly before now is how

nada's " Waif card " affected how *I* operate in the world in general,how

many-layered that dynamic is and the subtle ways it has impacted my own psyche.

It's just so strange to notice that I've been unconsciously thinking in

so many different ways that if only I could " stop " the Waif that I could make

" it " all better.Many symbolic " its " I am seeing in my own perception of my own

life now and in my own perception of what my " purpose " in life is.

But you can't deal with a problem until you name it.You can't deal

with a problem unless you can be honest about it.So,I'm calling this particular

problem I need to address " the Waif factor " .

I'm beginning to suspect,at least for myself,that there is no " there "

there---that there is no Shangri-La of total peace and total healing that I can

arrive to in the sense of the past being wiped away like I have a clean slate to

start from.I think that I need more to better learn how to live better with what

*is* and with what was and to take every discovery I make of what tools I need

to reconstruct my battered psyche as just that: a discovery that is going to

serve ME this time.

And hopefully in this process of discovery,lifelong if need be,I will

develop the kind of authenticity that makes life both better for me and for

those around me.Expecting to stumble many more times yet--but it's good to have

a goal even though I need to keep adjusting the posts.

>

> To me, the waifyness in my nada is just another manipulation tactic I have now

mostly grown an immunity to.

>

> It does still tend to make me feel like I'm being cruel and heartless to

ignore her (very real, in the moment) sobbing and contrition, but I've been

shown way too many times in the past that her feelings of remorse or sadness can

flip off like a light switch if she becomes triggered into rage again.

>

> When I was a little kid, I had to " shut off " my feelings and go numb and

passive (dissociate) when she'd rage at me and beat me (my screaming in terror

and crying just made her more enraged) so, I can now utilize the same " shut off "

mechanism when she turns on the waterworks.

>

> Let me be clear that I don't mock her, I don't rage at her, I don't call her

names, I don't hit her, I just simply do not respond: I am neutral.

>

> I don't feel guilty (well, not very much) and I don't feel a need to make her

feel better; not any more. She used this tactic on me for decades, and I did

feel very guilty and I did respond to her in empathy and try to make her feel

better. But now I recognize it as a pattern, a well-established pattern of

behavior in our relationship, and its just not healthy.

>

> With my nada, her tears and apologies are mostly a way to avoid negative

consequences to her behaviors. It used to effectively shut off any expression

of anger toward her on my part, any hurt on my part, and all the trauma and

damage done by her was supposed to be instantly erased by her tearful apology.

>

> And, well, yes, that is the way its supposed to work in a normal relationship

with a normal, non-pd person, but with a pd individual like my nada, the crying

and and the blubbering apology is only genuine in that moment, and the remorse

and the promises evaporate in the next instant when she's triggered (by God

knows what) into another rage.

>

> So, again, as always in my life, I am in a no-win situation. I can either

accept my nada's apologies and tear-streaked remorse and " make up " with her only

to be punched in the gut again later, when she " forgets " about promising to

never to do/say that again (sort of like Charlie Brown and Lucy and the football

routine) OR I can just be neutral and ignore her when she's sad and remorseful

and feel like a heartless bitch.

>

> (((((sigh)))))

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,this is cool,you really got it

That's *exactly* it: " the power of the Waif (is that) she plays on your

conception of yourself as a good person,and to refuse the Waif is to give the

opening to feel like a bad person... " Yes!!! This is and was the reason why I've

been helpless before her,the Waif.And I think everyone else nada encountered

fell for the same ploy--and so *I* got positioned as the " bad person " .And like

you said,since it wasn't her dominant type I didn't get enough practice in

dealing directly with it--and she used the Waif routine with me--with me sort of

as the vehicle--but never TO me.So it was very much there,but not in an in my

face way.I had other people too advocating for the Waif and I think that's why

she gets to me because she did once really " get me " by resorting to the Waif.And

so I tend to feel now that if someone is in pain and I don't respond that

" everyone " is going to think that *I* am some sort of a monster.I have

generalized what was in fact my nada's personal sickness to the rest of the

world.

One example before I go on to where I was intending to go with this on

topic to the subject you started: The " family " therapist we saw was doing

it,advocating for nada's Waif.To try to make a very long story short,nada had in

fact set me up to be molested by a pervert,knew it was happening and had taken

me with that to the point of being suicidal.When I told her that I wanted to

kill myself,she told me to go ahead and do it,she'drop my body off at the morgue

on her way to work in the morning.That is the evening I decided to go back into

school and fight back.I gathered my forces and my strength and I was fighting.So

she had me sent to a psychiatrist hoping I'd divulge enough distress to him that

he'd have me committed.She told me that this is what she expected,that he'd have

me sent to the loony bin.When he came out and horror of horrors wanted to see

*her*,she found herself a lackey,the " family " therapist,to do her bidding.*I*

was being molested,*I* had gone through absolute hell that year and before that

year,yet there was the therapist saying to me, " Your parents are very upset and

that fact seems to leave you stone cold " as if *I* was some monster.The whole

thing was calculated by nada to tear me back down--the Witch taking the Waif out

of her pocket,you see what I mean?....the Waif might play a game of helpless

fragility but she can definitely pack a punch...

Anyway.It seems to me that the " reserve " archetype any nada has is like

a shadow archetype.It's constantly there but it's like a subplot or subtext.We

know that we dread the shadow type but since it's not right there on the

surface,nada can make use of our dread to manipulate us like puppets on a

string.We,as the KO,believe that we are doing what we can to avoid an encounter

with the shadow nada type.While nada is using it all along,both keeping it in

reserve and actually employing it.

I was just very struck by the parallel in your original post,what you

were saying about the utter pettiness of your nada's taking and wanting to take

and her never being satisfied and always griping,with the story in

" Understanding the Borderline Mother " about the Fisherman and his Wife.That is

in the Witch chapter,as an example of how the Witch uses her partner.The Wife

asks her Fisherman husband to get her this and that because he has acquired some

magical power I forget and he does.But the Wife always wants him to do more,give

her more--increasingly outrageous demands.Finally she asks him to make her

God.The implication that,even then,she isn't going to be satisfied--even being

God,she will want more absolute power.

My nada was like that using her Waif shadow--other people could never

feel sorry enough for her; her shadow was bottomless in its greed.It's like your

nada wants to have you jumping through hoops for her in service to her Witch

shadow but it will never,ever be enough.I thought it was interesting what Kazam

wrote in her post because it sounds like what she has done is to say NO not only

to the Waif in her nada but also to that greedy shadow Witch--there is no need

to feel any guilt whatsoever for refusing the Witch because she is relentless

and will climb right on your back and sting you as you both drown like the

scorpion who asked the turtle to take him across the lake and promised not to

hurt him and when he stung him to death and the turtle asked him why,said, " But

you should have known,it's in my nature to sting you " ....

It seems like it must be helpful to also find a way to firmly say NO to

our nada's shadow types as much as to their dominant surface types.For

example,I've noticed that because I didn't fully apprehend the shadow type

subplot of my nada's " tricks " that I have drawn many Waifs into my life,like an

unconscious compulsion--trying in some way to figure out how to deal with nada's

shadow in the form of other Waifs; trying to make it better instead of

pinpointing the original source and refusing THAT: saying NO to *nada's* shadow

Waif.I have to wonder if maybe,in your own life,you have drawn Witch types to

you? I guess you couldn't call guys appearing in your life in the guise of

nada's shadow " warlocks " but I wonder if you've had relationships with guys who

turned out to be sociopathic like a Witch nada is?

I'm sorry this is kind of all over the place.I intuit something in this

" shadow nada " idea.If I can work it out I might start a topic about it--you're

right that there is something of a trojan horse dynamic going on here,but I'm

thinking it's not just with nada's surface type--she also uses the sub-rosa

shadow type as the trojan horse to get you to attack yourself for her.

I'm sharing my thoughts with you not sure if they will be helpful---but I

thank you for starting this topic,I've found it very thought provoking.

Thanks and thanks again,

>

> , fascinating you are right...for me the aspect that I'll stand on my

head and do back-flips to avoid is the Witch. My nada always has the Waif up

front and holds the Witch in reserve. It's amazing to me with all the strength

I can imagine it would take you to stand up to the Witch in your mother that the

Waif would get to you. I guess each of us has more practice with the dominant

type for our nadas. The power of the Waif to me seems that she plays on your

conception of yourself as a good person, and to refuse the Waif is to give the

opening to feel like " a bad person " and that can be powerful. To me the Witch

seems all aggression and cruelty, upfront, like a tsunami. A direct attack.

The Waif to me feels like a trojan horse designed to get you to attack yourself

for her.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I have not posted in awhile because I have been so busy with organizing my

home-improvement and move to the upstairs

apartment. I can't say that much has gotten done, but I am painting the kitchen

so that is good.

What you said made me think about how I was affected by my mom's *waif*

behavior. And how I operate in the world. I agree with you that there are

these layers that make it hard to see one's self, or have perspective. I lose

perspective all the time. For a long time I was hardened, and tough. But

underneath that was this *victim* self that I can recognize was always with me.

I have this part of myself because I have always known it was unjust what my

life was like. Certainly not as bad as some, or many. But it was still unjust.

And because I had no control, I felt like a victim inside. I still do. I can

feel it in my soul, my heart, that I walk around like life is killing me and is

so unfair. Not just for me but for millions of people.

I hate that I have this part of me. But it is a legacy I guess that comes with

the psychological damage, along with the strengths. That tough part of me keeps

pulling me through even though I might be sobbing and feeling victimized.

I think you are right...there is no *there* to get to. Although I hope to

eventually get to a place of peace where I can let go of this victim-feeling.

And what you said about finding the tools that will serve YOU this time, I can

only say: yes! That is I think the big point here. And it is exactly what I

hope to accomplish as well.

It is good to have a goal; crucial for us, I think. And to also have a " Plan

B " . That is what I am realizing. It will give us more emotional stability in

this life.

Thanks for your words,

~patricia

Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

My Witch nada never turned on the waterworks to me.The Witch does

not,ever,express even an erstaz remorse directly to her victims.She will only

pretend to cry pitiable or contrite tears to an audience if she thinks that

might save HER OWN skin.Think of shedding those crocodile tears on

television while she knew damn well those babies were dead at the bottom of a

lake.

And like ,what the Witch does is pull out the Waif card and

deal it out to win her own game,such as picking a vulnerable target for

scapegoat like " the Black man who carjacked me " --and she doesn't care if every

innocent Black man in the county is arrested for the crime she knows she

committed,as long as everyone sees her as the helpless Waif and she will play

her game as dirty as she thinks she needs to.

My own nada wouldn't have been above stooping to a similar low if she

thought she had to.I am NC with her for good and there is nothing she can say or

do that is going to change that now.

She used me,a small helpless child,as the scapegoat in order to be

perceived by the " public " as a hapless Waif.Over and over and over

again.Enlisting others as she did to participate in her dirty work has left me

with multiple traumas to sort out.What I didn't see clearly before now is how

nada's " Waif card " affected how *I* operate in the world in general,how

many-layered that dynamic is and the subtle ways it has impacted my own psyche.

It's just so strange to notice that I've been unconsciously thinking

in so many different ways that if only I could " stop " the Waif that I could make

" it " all better.Many symbolic " its " I am seeing in my own perception of my own

life now and in my own perception of what my " purpose " in life is.

But you can't deal with a problem until you name it.You can't deal

with a problem unless you can be honest about it.So,I'm calling this particular

problem I need to address " the Waif factor " .

I'm beginning to suspect,at least for myself,that there is no

" there " there---that there is no Shangri-La of total peace and total healing

that I can arrive to in the sense of the past being wiped away like I have a

clean slate to start from.I think that I need more to better learn how to live

better with what *is* and with what was and to take every discovery I make of

what tools I need to reconstruct my battered psyche as just that: a discovery

that is going to serve ME this time.

And hopefully in this process of discovery,lifelong if need be,I

will develop the kind of authenticity that makes life both better for me and for

those around me.Expecting to stumble many more times yet--but it's good to have

a goal even though I need to keep adjusting the posts.

>

> To me, the waifyness in my nada is just another manipulation tactic I have

now mostly grown an immunity to.

>

> It does still tend to make me feel like I'm being cruel and heartless to

ignore her (very real, in the moment) sobbing and contrition, but I've been

shown way too many times in the past that her feelings of remorse or sadness can

flip off like a light switch if she becomes triggered into rage again.

>

> When I was a little kid, I had to " shut off " my feelings and go numb and

passive (dissociate) when she'd rage at me and beat me (my screaming in terror

and crying just made her more enraged) so, I can now utilize the same " shut off "

mechanism when she turns on the waterworks.

>

> Let me be clear that I don't mock her, I don't rage at her, I don't call her

names, I don't hit her, I just simply do not respond: I am neutral.

>

> I don't feel guilty (well, not very much) and I don't feel a need to make

her feel better; not any more. She used this tactic on me for decades, and I

did feel very guilty and I did respond to her in empathy and try to make her

feel better. But now I recognize it as a pattern, a well-established pattern of

behavior in our relationship, and its just not healthy.

>

> With my nada, her tears and apologies are mostly a way to avoid negative

consequences to her behaviors. It used to effectively shut off any expression

of anger toward her on my part, any hurt on my part, and all the trauma and

damage done by her was supposed to be instantly erased by her tearful apology.

>

> And, well, yes, that is the way its supposed to work in a normal

relationship with a normal, non-pd person, but with a pd individual like my

nada, the crying and and the blubbering apology is only genuine in that moment,

and the remorse and the promises evaporate in the next instant when she's

triggered (by God knows what) into another rage.

>

> So, again, as always in my life, I am in a no-win situation. I can either

accept my nada's apologies and tear-streaked remorse and " make up " with her only

to be punched in the gut again later, when she " forgets " about promising to

never to do/say that again (sort of like Charlie Brown and Lucy and the football

routine) OR I can just be neutral and ignore her when she's sad and remorseful

and feel like a heartless bitch.

>

> (((((sigh)))))

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

>

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() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

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From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Karla and . That means a lot to me to have your validation;

you and all the other fellow KOs here and my Sister who truly understand from

first-hand experience what it means to live through being raised by a mentally

ill parent and the kind of damage that it did... your understanding and

compassion really does mean a lot to me.

-Annie

> >

> > May I make one, most humble observation?

> >

> > " . . . and feel like a heartless bitch. "

> >

> > Make that a HEALTHY, STRONG, WONDERFUL heartless bitch WITH HARD-WON

***BOUNDARIES!! THAT THE REST OF US ARE STRIVING FOR!****

> >

> > I hate those no-win situations. No matter what, they are frustrating.

> >

> > But I do have to honor you--you are far ahead of the game as a non!! I know

it feels like crap (as well it should) but you are clearly winning on this one.

She's the only boo-hoo-ing loser.

> >

> > Good for you--may we all be so " heartless " as to let ourselves be human and

not manipulated.

> >

> > Blessings,

> > Karla

[Guest guest]

Hi , your thoughts are absolutely helpful to me! You've definitely got

me thinking about the possible Warlock issue. I only wish I had more energy to

respond more thoroughly. I'm a bit tired and fuzzy headed tonight, so I'll

simpy share this as a reply...

Check out the " 6 of Clouds " /The Burden card on this page.

http://misfitslife.com/zen.htm

>

>

> ,this is cool,you really got it

>

> That's *exactly* it: " the power of the Waif (is that) she plays on your

conception of yourself as a good person,and to refuse the Waif is to give the

opening to feel like a bad person... " Yes!!! This is and was the reason why I've

been helpless before her,the Waif.And I think everyone else nada encountered

fell for the same ploy--and so *I* got positioned as the " bad person " .And like

you said,since it wasn't her dominant type I didn't get enough practice in

dealing directly with it--and she used the Waif routine with me--with me sort of

as the vehicle--but never TO me.So it was very much there,but not in an in my

face way.I had other people too advocating for the Waif and I think that's why

she gets to me because she did once really " get me " by resorting to the Waif.And

so I tend to feel now that if someone is in pain and I don't respond that

" everyone " is going to think that *I* am some sort of a monster.I have

generalized what was in fact my nada's personal sickness to the rest of the

world.

>

> One example before I go on to where I was intending to go with this on

topic to the subject you started: The " family " therapist we saw was doing

it,advocating for nada's Waif.To try to make a very long story short,nada had in

fact set me up to be molested by a pervert,knew it was happening and had taken

me with that to the point of being suicidal.When I told her that I wanted to

kill myself,she told me to go ahead and do it,she'drop my body off at the morgue

on her way to work in the morning.That is the evening I decided to go back into

school and fight back.I gathered my forces and my strength and I was fighting.So

she had me sent to a psychiatrist hoping I'd divulge enough distress to him that

he'd have me committed.She told me that this is what she expected,that he'd have

me sent to the loony bin.When he came out and horror of horrors wanted to see

*her*,she found herself a lackey,the " family " therapist,to do her bidding.*I*

was being molested,*I* had gone through absolute hell that year and before that

year,yet there was the therapist saying to me, " Your parents are very upset and

that fact seems to leave you stone cold " as if *I* was some monster.The whole

thing was calculated by nada to tear me back down--the Witch taking the Waif out

of her pocket,you see what I mean?....the Waif might play a game of helpless

fragility but she can definitely pack a punch...

>

> Anyway.It seems to me that the " reserve " archetype any nada has is

like a shadow archetype.It's constantly there but it's like a subplot or

subtext.We know that we dread the shadow type but since it's not right there on

the surface,nada can make use of our dread to manipulate us like puppets on a

string.We,as the KO,believe that we are doing what we can to avoid an encounter

with the shadow nada type.While nada is using it all along,both keeping it in

reserve and actually employing it.

>

> I was just very struck by the parallel in your original post,what you

were saying about the utter pettiness of your nada's taking and wanting to take

and her never being satisfied and always griping,with the story in

" Understanding the Borderline Mother " about the Fisherman and his Wife.That is

in the Witch chapter,as an example of how the Witch uses her partner.The Wife

asks her Fisherman husband to get her this and that because he has acquired some

magical power I forget and he does.But the Wife always wants him to do more,give

her more--increasingly outrageous demands.Finally she asks him to make her

God.The implication that,even then,she isn't going to be satisfied--even being

God,she will want more absolute power.

>

> My nada was like that using her Waif shadow--other people could never

feel sorry enough for her; her shadow was bottomless in its greed.It's like your

nada wants to have you jumping through hoops for her in service to her Witch

shadow but it will never,ever be enough.I thought it was interesting what Kazam

wrote in her post because it sounds like what she has done is to say NO not only

to the Waif in her nada but also to that greedy shadow Witch--there is no need

to feel any guilt whatsoever for refusing the Witch because she is relentless

and will climb right on your back and sting you as you both drown like the

scorpion who asked the turtle to take him across the lake and promised not to

hurt him and when he stung him to death and the turtle asked him why,said, " But

you should have known,it's in my nature to sting you " ....

>

> It seems like it must be helpful to also find a way to firmly say NO

to our nada's shadow types as much as to their dominant surface types.For

example,I've noticed that because I didn't fully apprehend the shadow type

subplot of my nada's " tricks " that I have drawn many Waifs into my life,like an

unconscious compulsion--trying in some way to figure out how to deal with nada's

shadow in the form of other Waifs; trying to make it better instead of

pinpointing the original source and refusing THAT: saying NO to *nada's* shadow

Waif.I have to wonder if maybe,in your own life,you have drawn Witch types to

you? I guess you couldn't call guys appearing in your life in the guise of

nada's shadow " warlocks " but I wonder if you've had relationships with guys who

turned out to be sociopathic like a Witch nada is?

>

> I'm sorry this is kind of all over the place.I intuit something in this

" shadow nada " idea.If I can work it out I might start a topic about it--you're

right that there is something of a trojan horse dynamic going on here,but I'm

thinking it's not just with nada's surface type--she also uses the sub-rosa

shadow type as the trojan horse to get you to attack yourself for her.

>

> I'm sharing my thoughts with you not sure if they will be helpful---but

I thank you for starting this topic,I've found it very thought provoking.

>

> Thanks and thanks again,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

this is how my nada is too...although as she's gotten older she's tried to

use crying as a way to gain sympathy from us ( not just outsiders) but

funny, she cries, but there are no tears !! she boo hoos and has that

weird high pitched voice...but no tears coming out!! We dont buy it !! my

nadas the witch/queen

Jackie

My Witch nada never turned on the waterworks to me.The Witch does

not,ever,express even an erstaz remorse directly to her victims.She will

only pretend to cry pitiable or contrite tears to an audience if she thinks

that might save HER OWN skin.Think of shedding those crocodile

tears on television while she knew damn well those babies were dead at the

bottom of a lake.

And like ,what the Witch does is pull out the Waif card

and deal it out to win her own game,such as picking a vulnerable target for

scapegoat like " the Black man who carjacked me " --and she doesn't care if

every innocent Black man in the county is arrested for the crime she knows

she committed,as long as everyone sees her as the helpless Waif and she will

play her game as dirty as she thinks she needs to.

My own nada wouldn't have been above stooping to a similar low if she

thought she had to.I am NC with her for good and there is nothing she can

say or do that is going to change that now.

She used me,a small helpless child,as the scapegoat in order to be

perceived by the " public " as a hapless Waif.Over and over and over

again.Enlisting others as she did to participate in her dirty work has left

me with multiple traumas to sort out.What I didn't see clearly before now is

how nada's " Waif card " affected how *I* operate in the world in general,how

many-layered that dynamic is and the subtle ways it has impacted my own

psyche.

It's just so strange to notice that I've been unconsciously

thinking in so many different ways that if only I could " stop " the Waif that

I could make " it " all better.Many symbolic " its " I am seeing in my own

perception of my own life now and in my own perception of what my " purpose "

in life is.

But you can't deal with a problem until you name it.You can't deal

with a problem unless you can be honest about it.So,I'm calling this

particular problem I need to address " the Waif factor " .

I'm beginning to suspect,at least for myself,that there is no

" there " there---that there is no Shangri-La of total peace and total healing

that I can arrive to in the sense of the past being wiped away like I have a

clean slate to start from.I think that I need more to better learn how to

live better with what *is* and with what was and to take every discovery I

make of what tools I need to reconstruct my battered psyche as just that: a

discovery that is going to serve ME this time.

And hopefully in this process of discovery,lifelong if need be,I

will develop the kind of authenticity that makes life both better for me and

for those around me.Expecting to stumble many more times yet--but it's good

to have a goal even though I need to keep adjusting the posts.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Painting the kitchen is definitely good.My own kitchen is staying in

its almost fashionably retro state for now,even though if I stop to really think

about it,it makes me want to...scream...yet there is a sort of time warp charm

to it,sort of.Home improvement is SUCH a project,isn't it?

What you said made me think of how easy it is for us as KOs to start

to perceive the strengths we had to develop or hold on to as deficits,when they

were at one time so necessary to the survival of our souls--or the protection of

them.

It sounds like you had to develop a tough outer shell to protect a

very sensitive soul--and now maybe that you are feeling your soul as an adult

who can take care of herself,the encounter with it just hurts,like it's been

exposed and is still raw? Like the defense mechanism you developed to ensure the

survival of your soul,the toughness,served you until now but as you access the

true contours of your soul and your sensitivities beyond the outer

toughness,you're discovering that you need to find a way for that soul to BE in

the world,in a way that serves *you*?

I don't know--just that this is kind of where I am right now with an

opposite,but not wholly dissimilar,dynamic: it was the development of tenderness

in me that kept me from becoming so hardened by my experiences that I'd end up

only hardened.I had to hold on tight to any tender feelings within me growing

up--and while that served my sanity and protected my soul when I needed it to

and wasn't a *wrong* thing to do,now I notice that my own gentle feelings are at

times my downfall and that I need now to harness and direct my more aggressive

or competitive inner nature.Not that I'm inherently incapable of gentleness,just

as you are not incapable of using your tougness to pull you through when you're

feeling victimized,but that for me what is behind the outer tenderness is this

raw power energy.And when it is so strong it's overwhelming me,I use the

gentleness I had to develop to temper it or to take myself through that feeling

overwhelmed by what is,I think,my essential soul energy.I think I have a very

yang soul--it sounds like you have a very yin one.And I guess the challenge for

both of us as KOs is to pretty much " get back to " our own natures! It can almost

feel like coming to shore in a very strange land at times though.

And equally strange,it seems to me,is how the different aspects of our

own self (re)discovery can be both blessings and curses! Maybe the truest (to

oneself) goal to have is to remember always to count the undertaking of the

journey itself as the victory?

I know that my parents never took that journey,nor has my brother...so I

guess that makes me/all of us pioneers as we seek our own healing...

Thanks for sharing your perspective,

>

> Hi ,

> I have not posted in awhile because I have been so busy with organizing my

home-improvement and move to the upstairs

> apartment. I can't say that much has gotten done, but I am painting the

kitchen so that is good.

>

> What you said made me think about how I was affected by my mom's *waif*

behavior. And how I operate in the world. I agree with you that there are

these layers that make it hard to see one's self, or have perspective. I lose

perspective all the time. For a long time I was hardened, and tough. But

underneath that was this *victim* self that I can recognize was always with me.

I have this part of myself because I have always known it was unjust what my

life was like. Certainly not as bad as some, or many. But it was still unjust.

And because I had no control, I felt like a victim inside. I still do. I can

feel it in my soul, my heart, that I walk around like life is killing me and is

so unfair. Not just for me but for millions of people.

>

> I hate that I have this part of me. But it is a legacy I guess that comes

with the psychological damage, along with the strengths. That tough part of me

keeps pulling me through even though I might be sobbing and feeling victimized.

>

> I think you are right...there is no *there* to get to. Although I hope to

eventually get to a place of peace where I can let go of this victim-feeling.

And what you said about finding the tools that will serve YOU this time, I can

only say: yes! That is I think the big point here. And it is exactly what I

hope to accomplish as well.

> It is good to have a goal; crucial for us, I think. And to also have a " Plan

B " . That is what I am realizing. It will give us more emotional stability in

this life.

> Thanks for your words,

> ~patricia

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Your comment about your kitchen made me laugh! When I moved in here the house

was so *charming* I had to rip it apart. But then my carpenter moved out of

state (taking my best friend who is his wife, with him). And so my kitchen sat

for five years mostly unfinished. But my tenants are moving out (as i probably

said) and I plan to move upstairs to get more rent for this place. It is part

of my plan to make sure I *make* it financially.

This leads into the toughness thing. I feel I can tough it out; all the

feelings of leaving my comfort zone, and establishing a new living space, sort

of unexpectedly (though I've been thinking of it for half a year). My toughness

was a blockade to all the invasions I experienced as I am sure you can guess.

Part of it was from my peers. Not to mention school and teachers.

I feel that my gentle nature was like a target for every sadistic impulse anyone

around me had. I am not sure why...I mean certainly people have a gentle side

to them??

I have done some work with animal totems and one of mine is Deer, which is

gentleness. Another is Golden Eagle, which is spirit, but to me the predator

bird is tough by nature. And so perhaps it is the balance of these parts of

ourselves that is the most important. I have the most difficult time getting

tough with people; I just keep myself *tough* insulated from the way I

experience the world.

I like what you said about developing the tenderness in yourself so that you

would not be hardened. I think that we are talking about two sides of the same

coin, no? I developed the hardness so I would not be just this soft vulnerable

animal self.

I often wonder if these experiences made me the kind of sensitive person I am,

or have they distorted my sensitivity into something that sort of can cripple me

by external realities? I am not sure. But here I am. There you are. We can

only move forward and try to integrate our different parts or accept when we

can't.

When I got divorced and had to give up my little goat herd, I took them to the

new owner and I allowed myself one tear (I probably said this before); I felt I

had to be that way. Because I don't know how to grieve. My grief was always

taken away by my mother. And ignored by my father. So grief is frightening and

a strange animal to me. Yet her I am sitting in the worst grief of my life;

probably not barely touching it.

I like what you said too, about finding a way for the soul to be in the world in

a way the serves me (or you, or anyone). I guess that is my journey.

thanks for your email....

~patricia

ps..the paint makes a huge difference, but it definitely is a huge pain!

Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

Hi ,

Painting the kitchen is definitely good.My own kitchen is staying

in its almost fashionably retro state for now,even though if I stop to really

think about it,it makes me want to...scream...yet there is a sort of time warp

charm to it,sort of.Home improvement is SUCH a project,isn't it?

What you said made me think of how easy it is for us as KOs to

start to perceive the strengths we had to develop or hold on to as deficits,when

they were at one time so necessary to the survival of our souls--or the

protection of them.

It sounds like you had to develop a tough outer shell to protect a

very sensitive soul--and now maybe that you are feeling your soul as an adult

who can take care of herself,the encounter with it just hurts,like it's been

exposed and is still raw? Like the defense mechanism you developed to ensure the

survival of your soul,the toughness,served you until now but as you access the

true contours of your soul and your sensitivities beyond the outer

toughness,you're discovering that you need to find a way for that soul to BE in

the world,in a way that serves *you*?

I don't know--just that this is kind of where I am right now with an

opposite,but not wholly dissimilar,dynamic: it was the development of tenderness

in me that kept me from becoming so hardened by my experiences that I'd end up

only hardened.I had to hold on tight to any tender feelings within me growing

up--and while that served my sanity and protected my soul when I needed it to

and wasn't a *wrong* thing to do,now I notice that my own gentle feelings are at

times my downfall and that I need now to harness and direct my more aggressive

or competitive inner nature.Not that I'm inherently incapable of gentleness,just

as you are not incapable of using your tougness to pull you through when you're

feeling victimized,but that for me what is behind the outer tenderness is this

raw power energy.And when it is so strong it's overwhelming me,I use the

gentleness I had to develop to temper it or to take myself through that feeling

overwhelmed by what is,I think,my essential soul energy.I think I have a very

yang soul--it sounds like you have a very yin one.And I guess the challenge for

both of us as KOs is to pretty much " get back to " our own natures! It can almost

feel like coming to shore in a very strange land at times though.

And equally strange,it seems to me,is how the different aspects of our

own self (re)discovery can be both blessings and curses! Maybe the truest (to

oneself) goal to have is to remember always to count the undertaking of the

journey itself as the victory?

I know that my parents never took that journey,nor has my brother...so

I guess that makes me/all of us pioneers as we seek our own healing...

Thanks for sharing your perspective,

>

> Hi ,

> I have not posted in awhile because I have been so busy with organizing my

home-improvement and move to the upstairs

> apartment. I can't say that much has gotten done, but I am painting the

kitchen so that is good.

>

> What you said made me think about how I was affected by my mom's *waif*

behavior. And how I operate in the world. I agree with you that there are

these layers that make it hard to see one's self, or have perspective. I lose

perspective all the time. For a long time I was hardened, and tough. But

underneath that was this *victim* self that I can recognize was always with me.

I have this part of myself because I have always known it was unjust what my

life was like. Certainly not as bad as some, or many. But it was still unjust.

And because I had no control, I felt like a victim inside. I still do. I can

feel it in my soul, my heart, that I walk around like life is killing me and is

so unfair. Not just for me but for millions of people.

>

> I hate that I have this part of me. But it is a legacy I guess that comes

with the psychological damage, along with the strengths. That tough part of me

keeps pulling me through even though I might be sobbing and feeling victimized.

>

> I think you are right...there is no *there* to get to. Although I hope to

eventually get to a place of peace where I can let go of this victim-feeling.

And what you said about finding the tools that will serve YOU this time, I can

only say: yes! That is I think the big point here. And it is exactly what I

hope to accomplish as well.

> It is good to have a goal; crucial for us, I think. And to also have a

" Plan B " . That is what I am realizing. It will give us more emotional

stability in this life.

> Thanks for your words,

> ~patricia

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

,that's weird...my totem is Golden Eagle,too.I don't know if I have

another one--I guess I do? Since you having Deer along with Golden Eagle makes

soul sense.

When I was in my mid twenties I had an incredibly vivid dream that I was

in an airplane (not long after having been in a real one that had had to make an

emergency landing--instead of working it through I allowed the terror of that

moment to develop into a flying phobia and I flew on airplanes quite

frequently,so it became like this ongoing head trip/nightmare thing for

me)--anyway,the dream airplane I was in crashed into a mountain side and

magically dissolved,leaving me hanging in the air realizing that I was going to

fall.A Golden Eagle appeared above me and told me that I could fly and chuckled

at me when I said I couldn't.Bla bla bla but we ended up flying together between

mountains,me as a Golden Eagle as well,no longer human.But more like a soul

version of one.I could see everything with the flicker fusion sight of a Golden

Eagle--the shadows billowing in the crevices of the rock face; the multiple hues

of color flashing across the snow on the mountain tops,shifting and changing

with the wind.I had a sensation of total liberation and total understanding of

all things,catching the currents and pockets of air and swooping up and circling

down between the mountains or gliding on a breeze.And a total sense of

peace,safety,and power.

At the end of this dream the Golden Eagle gave me a name to call and a

symbol in the sky to meditate on if ever I needed them in a moment of

distress.When I got panic attacks with a racing heart after that,all I had to do

was refocus on that dream and the feeling from it and the panic attack would

just stop.

I still say that name/think of that feeling/visualize that symbol when I

need it.The Golden Eagle seemed to me to be a manifestation of my soul or my

soul's power.To me,the Golden Eagle sees very acutely and accepts necessity.

(Very un-apropos of this--I have to go walk my dog now...)

>

> Hi ,

> Your comment about your kitchen made me laugh! When I moved in here the house

was so *charming* I had to rip it apart. But then my carpenter moved out of

state (taking my best friend who is his wife, with him). And so my kitchen sat

for five years mostly unfinished. But my tenants are moving out (as i probably

said) and I plan to move upstairs to get more rent for this place. It is part

of my plan to make sure I *make* it financially.

>

> This leads into the toughness thing. I feel I can tough it out; all the

feelings of leaving my comfort zone, and establishing a new living space, sort

of unexpectedly (though I've been thinking of it for half a year). My toughness

was a blockade to all the invasions I experienced as I am sure you can guess.

Part of it was from my peers. Not to mention school and teachers.

> I feel that my gentle nature was like a target for every sadistic impulse

anyone around me had. I am not sure why...I mean certainly people have a gentle

side to them??

>

> I have done some work with animal totems and one of mine is Deer, which is

gentleness. Another is Golden Eagle, which is spirit, but to me the predator

bird is tough by nature. And so perhaps it is the balance of these parts of

ourselves that is the most important. I have the most difficult time getting

tough with people; I just keep myself *tough* insulated from the way I

experience the world.

>

> I like what you said about developing the tenderness in yourself so that you

would not be hardened. I think that we are talking about two sides of the same

coin, no? I developed the hardness so I would not be just this soft vulnerable

animal self.

> I often wonder if these experiences made me the kind of sensitive person I am,

or have they distorted my sensitivity into something that sort of can cripple me

by external realities? I am not sure. But here I am. There you are. We can

only move forward and try to integrate our different parts or accept when we

can't.

>

> When I got divorced and had to give up my little goat herd, I took them to the

new owner and I allowed myself one tear (I probably said this before); I felt I

had to be that way. Because I don't know how to grieve. My grief was always

taken away by my mother. And ignored by my father. So grief is frightening and

a strange animal to me. Yet her I am sitting in the worst grief of my life;

probably not barely touching it.

>

> I like what you said too, about finding a way for the soul to be in the world

in a way the serves me (or you, or anyone). I guess that is my journey.

> thanks for your email....

> ~patricia

> ps..the paint makes a huge difference, but it definitely is a huge pain!

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

, back now, more brain cells firing today! My first thought is still

outrage at what your nada did to you working so hard to destroy you

psychologically with the molestation and the paid-off(?) therapist. I am so

glad you got that one psychologist who saw through it so you had that validation

to hold on to. For her to later get a therapist to validate that SHE was the

WAIF and you had to serve her needs - wow. Yet it's not surprising based on

what I've read of nadas doing over the years - still disgusting though. My nada

also enlists others to believe in her needs and then put guilt on me for her -

often while she herself only implies but never directly says anything. It is

Machiavellian.

I find it useful to look at why the shadow nada is so terrifying. For me the

Witch calls back memories of early childhood when my nada's act of the good

mommy would slip and I would see this anger and nastiness of an intensity that

was just terrifying. The switch from good to evil was sudden and based on

things as a child I could barely comprehend. Leading to...walking on eggshells.

Guess there's a reason that phrase is associated with BPD. As an adult I am

willing to fight the Witch and will if she appears. But I still can't stand

seeing the Witch because it brings into question whether any of the good parts

of my nada or okay memories of her are real. I have a deep fear that all along

she is the Witch with the Waify but kinder mother being the lie to keep me where

she wants me. I had one therapist suggest that they both are real but I have

trouble with that idea.

Talking about the Waif being the problem - the shadow nada for you made me think

of Karl Rove. He was once quoted as saying the best political strategy was to

attack your opponent's strengths. So if your strength is being a good and

giving person then if she sets you up to be bad and selfish in your own eyes or

the eyes of others what an attack on your concept of self that is!

And really check out that Tarot card - that poor guy carrying the other man on

his shoulders carrying the bird just says it all for me.

Hope some of my ramblings were helpful too!

>

> Hi , your thoughts are absolutely helpful to me! You've definitely

got me thinking about the possible Warlock issue. I only wish I had more energy

to respond more thoroughly. I'm a bit tired and fuzzy headed tonight, so I'll

simpy share this as a reply...

>

> Check out the " 6 of Clouds " /The Burden card on this page.

> http://misfitslife.com/zen.htm

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Wow, ~ That is a very powerful dream. Thank you for sharing it; I

cannot share mine since it was part of a process that takes place in a

*container* that is held to be secret (not because it is any big deal, but it is

for any future participants to not know what the event entails).

To me your dream also points to what in the whole *Shadow Work* world is called;

Magician. The way you could see everything and understand all. (there is a

four quarters archetypal description of the human psyche: Warrior, Lover,

Magician, Sovereign) . I can see the *magician* in you, in your responses and

discussions, how you can see the larger picture and pull out the important

parts. (of course I can see the other aspects as well but this does stand out).

In my experience, I became sort of startled by embodying the Golden Eagle; and

so I came from it pretty fast. (My mind, with ADD, has a hard time staying with

things once I over-notice them, unless of course it's a sad mood...). But

before this happened I had a curious pre-quel. I was at a bird demonstration on

the town common. At one point, the woman pulled out a Golden Eagle. When I

looked at this bird, tears started flowing from my eyes. She was so beautiful;

her beauty connected right with my soul. I glanced around the room to see if

anyone else was tearing up, but no. It was a very powerful experience too. (I

have pretty much lost this connection to ecstatic experiences in the past few

years, sadly, although when I first gazed at the Pacific Ocean from Pt. Reyes

National Park, I was stunned by the beauty, and felt a connection to my soul

that day).

I have found that I have four significant totem animals. One

(fortunately/unfortunately) is Coyote, the trickster. This came to me in a

dream when I was in my twenties (and pretty much characterizes me ). The

other is Weasel, who is a creature that has a *knowing* of what is going on that

is not being said, and about other people's activities and motivations. The

other is Deer. I've had a few powerful experiences with Deer. And Deer reminds

me about gentleness. Not just towards others but to myself.

I have lost my connection, like I said. Sadly. I have gone through a bad loss

of faith, for various reasons. The natural world is my spiritual place and I

have lost that; maybe it is the depression from grief, or the anger at the way

I've gotten my life to where it is where I feel so stuck. (and not just anger

at the choices I've made but why I made them, as well as the choices of the

other things like the school system , and blah blah blah, I could go on).

I remember when this first started happening; it was probably three years ago,

and something political happened, something with Bush, and I began to feel so

down about how things were turning in this country that I thought about living

abroad.

Things have changed in this country that makes it really hard for people who are

anything less than completely stable, to feel like they can really make it or

get anywhere. Being a single woman with a crappy job and a teenage to get

through school (because I believe in his intelligence and abilities more than

anyone else in the world does) is very daunting.

Anyway....thank you for sharing your dream. That will make me think of Golden

Eagle again and feel a pleasure that someone else had this vision unexpectedly.

I will have to think why I could not fly as you did but was afraid to fly *as

the eagle*.

Or too freaked out by it.

~patricia

Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

,that's weird...my totem is Golden Eagle,too.I don't know if I have

another one--I guess I do? Since you having Deer along with Golden Eagle makes

soul sense.

When I was in my mid twenties I had an incredibly vivid dream that I

was in an airplane (not long after having been in a real one that had had to

make an emergency landing--instead of working it through I allowed the terror of

that moment to develop into a flying phobia and I flew on airplanes quite

frequently,so it became like this ongoing head trip/nightmare thing for

me)--anyway,the dream airplane I was in crashed into a mountain side and

magically dissolved,leaving me hanging in the air realizing that I was going to

fall.A Golden Eagle appeared above me and told me that I could fly and chuckled

at me when I said I couldn't.Bla bla bla but we ended up flying together between

mountains,me as a Golden Eagle as well,no longer human.But more like a soul

version of one.I could see everything with the flicker fusion sight of a Golden

Eagle--the shadows billowing in the crevices of the rock face; the multiple hues

of color flashing across the snow on the mountain tops,shifting and changing

with the wind.I had a sensation of total liberation and total understanding of

all things,catching the currents and pockets of air and swooping up and circling

down between the mountains or gliding on a breeze.And a total sense of

peace,safety,and power.

At the end of this dream the Golden Eagle gave me a name to call and

a symbol in the sky to meditate on if ever I needed them in a moment of

distress.When I got panic attacks with a racing heart after that,all I had to do

was refocus on that dream and the feeling from it and the panic attack would

just stop.

I still say that name/think of that feeling/visualize that symbol when

I need it.The Golden Eagle seemed to me to be a manifestation of my soul or my

soul's power.To me,the Golden Eagle sees very acutely and accepts necessity.

(Very un-apropos of this--I have to go walk my dog now...)

>

> Hi ,

> Your comment about your kitchen made me laugh! When I moved in here the

house was so *charming* I had to rip it apart. But then my carpenter moved out

of state (taking my best friend who is his wife, with him). And so my kitchen

sat for five years mostly unfinished. But my tenants are moving out (as i

probably said) and I plan to move upstairs to get more rent for this place. It

is part of my plan to make sure I *make* it financially.

>

> This leads into the toughness thing. I feel I can tough it out; all the

feelings of leaving my comfort zone, and establishing a new living space, sort

of unexpectedly (though I've been thinking of it for half a year). My toughness

was a blockade to all the invasions I experienced as I am sure you can guess.

Part of it was from my peers. Not to mention school and teachers.

> I feel that my gentle nature was like a target for every sadistic impulse

anyone around me had. I am not sure why...I mean certainly people have a gentle

side to them??

>

> I have done some work with animal totems and one of mine is Deer, which is

gentleness. Another is Golden Eagle, which is spirit, but to me the predator

bird is tough by nature. And so perhaps it is the balance of these parts of

ourselves that is the most important. I have the most difficult time getting

tough with people; I just keep myself *tough* insulated from the way I

experience the world.

>

> I like what you said about developing the tenderness in yourself so that you

would not be hardened. I think that we are talking about two sides of the same

coin, no? I developed the hardness so I would not be just this soft vulnerable

animal self.

> I often wonder if these experiences made me the kind of sensitive person I

am, or have they distorted my sensitivity into something that sort of can

cripple me by external realities? I am not sure. But here I am. There you

are. We can only move forward and try to integrate our different parts or

accept when we can't.

>

> When I got divorced and had to give up my little goat herd, I took them to

the new owner and I allowed myself one tear (I probably said this before); I

felt I had to be that way. Because I don't know how to grieve. My grief was

always taken away by my mother. And ignored by my father. So grief is

frightening and a strange animal to me. Yet her I am sitting in the worst grief

of my life; probably not barely touching it.

>

> I like what you said too, about finding a way for the soul to be in the

world in a way the serves me (or you, or anyone). I guess that is my journey.

> thanks for your email....

> ~patricia

> ps..the paint makes a huge difference, but it definitely is a huge pain!

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

,

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for starting this amazing discussion

thread. (Thanks to everyone who's responded so far.) I relate 110%. My nada,

who is Chinese American, always invokes Confusianism and filial piety as

cultural justification for her demands, expectations, etc., making me feel like

I'm a bad Chinese American (not to mention disgraceful daughter) if I don't bow

to her every whim. (And I mean EVERY whim, including agreeing with everything

she says and believes, no matter how paranoid, etc.) It wasn't until I left for

college and met other Chinese Americans that I realized that not all Chinese

American mothers are crazy like mine! But it's been so incredibly hard to

unlearn and grow immunity to that guilt. Just a week ago nada sent me a letter

that said " Grandma and all our ancestors are rolling over in their graves at

your behavior " (my " behavior " being that I'm trying to enforce personal

boundaries). I was so upset! It took me a good two days to see it for the

manipulation that it was. But the victory is that I did get there, eventually.

That's what makes this group so great -- we can learn from each other, and

hopefully get better and faster at seeing past the guilt and building resistance

to all that crazy nada talk!

Thanks again,

Anne

>

> I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

>

> But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to live

the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her. So

I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

>

> I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

It must be so hard for you, Anne. The western culture has celebrated rugged

individualism for so long, and there is a sense of the nuclear family being

responsible for itself for a least 500 years. (In Britain in the middle ages it

was expected that children of bakers, etc would not marry until they could own

their own roof and move out). Coming from that culture the idea of boundaries

and personal responsibilities is easier (although any of us raised by BPs have a

really hard time with the concept). I've tried really hard to understand the

Asian concept of family and identity, and humbly admit I can't quite get my mind

around it. But I know the self is interconnected in a very important way with

family and community and ideas of boundaries and responsibility are very very

different. I'm sure that makes it so much harder for you to feel okay about

protecting yourself. But you said yourself you know non crazy Chinese moms, and

I think that's the

key. Hang in there.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sat, March 6, 2010 12:45:17 PM

Subject: Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

,

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for starting this amazing discussion

thread. (Thanks to everyone who's responded so far.) I relate 110%. My nada,

who is Chinese American, always invokes Confusianism and filial piety as

cultural justification for her demands, expectations, etc., making me feel like

I'm a bad Chinese American (not to mention disgraceful daughter) if I don't bow

to her every whim. (And I mean EVERY whim, including agreeing with everything

she says and believes, no matter how paranoid, etc.) It wasn't until I left for

college and met other Chinese Americans that I realized that not all Chinese

American mothers are crazy like mine! But it's been so incredibly hard to

unlearn and grow immunity to that guilt. Just a week ago nada sent me a letter

that said " Grandma and all our ancestors are rolling over in their graves at

your behavior " (my " behavior " being that I'm trying to enforce personal

boundaries). I was so upset! It took

me a good two days to see it for the manipulation that it was. But the victory

is that I did get there, eventually.

That's what makes this group so great -- we can learn from each other, and

hopefully get better and faster at seeing past the guilt and building resistance

to all that crazy nada talk!

Thanks again,

Anne

>

> I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like

where it was - in the city with her sister where she now lives - a move I paid

for out of dwindling savings. If I am healthier than her while she is

unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there and carry on about things that

are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept the consequences of her life and

simple age...putting pressure in a million subtle ways to let me know, I should

make it right or at least console her and feel awful with her. Be the crutch

so she can stand upright if she stumbles. That's always been what love was

defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

>

> But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to live

the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her. So

I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

>

> I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,your " rambling " is very helpful--and very thoughtful and sweet

I can't seem to locate that particular " 6 of Clouds " card on that page but I

saved the site because I enjoyed reading the Zen Buddhist interpretations of the

different cards.Thank you for passing that along.

And thank you so much for your compassion and understanding.I can get how

it's terrifying to look at the Witch shadow.I guess it's sort of like having the

mother reach up suddenly and pull off her face like it was only a mask she was

wearing and underneath the mask is this absolutely hideous creature from some

unknown dimension.And what do you do with THAT???? I have brief flashbacks

occasionally of nada in all her Witchy fury screaming at me.They only last a

couple of seconds,but they're real flashbacks in the clinical sense,like it's

happening now and for those few seconds it's right in front of me and totally

real.Thankfully they only happen once in a great while when I'm really stressed

out over some nada issue I'm trying to process or integrate.I think they're

flashbacks of very early events because bizarrely nada has the same exact

hairstyle,weight,look in the flashbacks that she has in photos from when I was

younger than two.And during the flashback itself what I'm seeing screaming at me

isn't my mother--it's this terrifying,out of control,hideous CREATURE that I am

totally helpless to protect myself against.It feels like a moment way beyond

just mere insanity that is assaulting me--it feels like every single element of

the universe is warped in an evil way that is murderous personally to me--and I

can do nothing to stop it.

So,uhm yeah,I don't blame you at all that you can't stand seeing the

Witch.The questions she brings up are just...almost impossible to wrap your head

around.I think that for my nada,the Witch IS what she really is and the Waif is

what she wants to deceive others into believing she is because that can get the

Witch what she has decided she wants,but basically she is the Witch.So maybe

your nada really is the Waif but if it's useful to her and can be used to the

advantage of her Waif by making that Waif " powerful " ,she will use her Witch to

deceive.This is why I see the Waif as so much more powerful than the

Witch,because in my experience the Waif always got the Witch exactly what she

wanted.

What you said about Karl Rove is straight out of the Bully's

Handbook.What a....I guess nada missed her true calling: she had that tactic

sussed as well as many other unsavory ones.They truly are Machiavellian.

And yes,the constant attacks on my self concept either of me as a

decent,good person or as someone who was capable of successfully taking the

initiative to protect myself or act in my own best interests was incredibly

damaging.Condemned by the whole world almost,it seemed,for crimes I had neither

imagined nor committed.Thanks for understanding that.

> >

> > Hi , your thoughts are absolutely helpful to me! You've definitely

got me thinking about the possible Warlock issue. I only wish I had more energy

to respond more thoroughly. I'm a bit tired and fuzzy headed tonight, so I'll

simpy share this as a reply...

> >

> > Check out the " 6 of Clouds " /The Burden card on this page.

> > http://misfitslife.com/zen.htm

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Anne, I'm glad talking about this waify guilt stuff helps you too. It's meant

so much to share it here with you guys and find so many of you really understand

and have the same experiences. Again thank you all! Nadas definitely can (and

will!) use the aspects of the culture that support them as a weapon. I don't

know a lot about Chinese culture but I know family and sacrifice for the family

plays a big role. My family's roots are Southern rural culture. I grew up in a

city but those roots hold values of " only trust family " and " only count on

family " and " children are obliged to care for their parents or go to hell,

period " and of course back when there was no electricity and people lived in a

house miles away from the next house and grew their own food these values are

understandable. I'd love to know more about what Chinese culture says about

the family if you'd like to share.

>

> ,

>

> Thank you from the bottom of my heart for starting this amazing discussion

thread. (Thanks to everyone who's responded so far.) I relate 110%. My nada,

who is Chinese American, always invokes Confusianism and filial piety as

cultural justification for her demands, expectations, etc., making me feel like

I'm a bad Chinese American (not to mention disgraceful daughter) if I don't bow

to her every whim. (And I mean EVERY whim, including agreeing with everything

she says and believes, no matter how paranoid, etc.) It wasn't until I left for

college and met other Chinese Americans that I realized that not all Chinese

American mothers are crazy like mine! But it's been so incredibly hard to

unlearn and grow immunity to that guilt. Just a week ago nada sent me a letter

that said " Grandma and all our ancestors are rolling over in their graves at

your behavior " (my " behavior " being that I'm trying to enforce personal

boundaries). I was so upset! It took me a good two days to see it for the

manipulation that it was. But the victory is that I did get there, eventually.

>

> That's what makes this group so great -- we can learn from each other, and

hopefully get better and faster at seeing past the guilt and building resistance

to all that crazy nada talk!

>

> Thanks again,

> Anne

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

That is great that you are working on guilt and what it is all about. Saying

good-bye to guilt for me was just letting me have my own life and believing that

I had the right to one seperate of Nada. It was great exploring how I became so

guilty and how I was manipulated. That came with being trained to be someone's

life support system.

When Nada gambled and mispent the money, that is when I found this group. As it

was not just a gambling problem as it was with food, spending and generally

self-sabotaging behaviours. There was more to it all I felt. That is when BPD

hit the nail on the head for me.

Nada also looked to me for her support and seem to always support others not her

immediated family.

What I meant by finding others is that my Nada finds friends or realtionships to

get involved in that keep her from the real issues of her life. Her friendships

are usually people that are also lost souls and they seem to survive on the

drama of each others lives. Playing victims and the poor mes to each other.

Also like drug addicts they have similiar lifesyles and behaviours that keep

them stuck and in total denial of deeper problems.

For me I use to be part of the dramas and in earlier stages of my life I also

had many fleas that kept us bonded.

The healthier I got the more our relationship felt the pressured.

I always felt sorry for her as she had disclosed all her childhood and marital

problems to me from a young age. I do not feel sorry for her anymore because I

feel she has had many chance to fix her life but choices not to.

It is hard to change. I have but I also do not have BPD. Nad doesn't even try.

She also admitted to being self-sabotaging but also said she is too old to

change. This was sad to hear but maybe easier than trying to and then letting

me down.

It was greiving and lost hope for me and acceptance that this is how it was

going to be. I was then free to live for me.

I hope today finds you strong and happy.

Kazam x

> >

> > Hi ,

> > I relate to you very much as my mother is a waife as well. I too have

suffered guilt and something clicked one day when enough was enough. Nada

gambeld and spent folishly $300 000 that she got from a settlement of another

broken relationship over a couple of years.

> > We had advised her to invest in a unit or something but now it is all gone

and she had to move again. This time with another lady she doesn't know very

well that is giving her cheap rent. She self-sabotages herself than plays the

victim.

> >

> > She also extreme envy for my life. Once she even said " I must of did

something right you turned out ok. " ( an extension of her) I turned out

alright after years of therapy and self help books from her crazy mothering. Not

to mention 2 suicide attempts in my teenage years because I was afraid I was

turning into her.

> >

> > She will be 60 soon I am 40 and I think that is enough time to realise she

wont change and LET GO. I tried to fix her support her, love her enough to

change. Of course it didn't work. I also felt it was my duty. That is what you

did when it was out of LOVE for your MOTHER.

> > We have suffered enough, wasted enough of OUR LIVES. Please say GOOD-BYE TO

GUILT as I have. We deserve a happy life. We must set ourselves free of being

the MOTHER. It does not serve us well and we deserve better.

> > I now have a daughter 8yrs and I would never burden her with my troubles and

train her to be there for my everything.

> > It is very sad you had to do this for your Nada too.

> > You have the right to your own life without being her life line.

> >

> > Life is short Nadas destroy so much of it that be strong and don't let her

take anymore of your valuable life and energy.

> > YOU ARE NOT THE MOTHER. SHE IS AN ADULT. SHE WILL SURVIVE. SHE WILL FIND

OTHERS OUT THERE THAT WILL DO YOUR JOB IF YOU LET HER GO.

> > It is hard I know all too well how hard it is. Please stay strong and LOVE

YOURSELF.

> > That is what I pray for every day. Strength to keep strong and guilt free.

Confirmation that I am doing what is best for me and my famiy.

> > Some days are better than others. One step at a time. We will get there.

It is getting easier for me. It has been a year LC for me. Not sure how long

for you or if you are LC.

> > Take Care,

> > Kazam x

> > p.s. REMEMBER GOOD-BYE TO GUILT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> > Stay strong my fellow daughter of a waife.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

,what a fascinating post! I think I could respond at major length to all

these very interesting ideas you've written but will try to contain my

enthusiasm a leetle bit lol.

In the Iroquois tradition your spirit guide chooses you and appears to you

in a dream.When I was a kid I actually wondered what was " wrong " with me that I

wasn't receiving this vision and then in the cynicism of my teen years kind of

forgot about it.At the time when I had that dream,I wasn't really thinking

specifically of not having met my spirit guide and then afterward I was

like,damn,how did *that* come up the way it did,exactly as my great grandmother

had explained it with the name to call on and the symbol when I'd apparently

forgotten all about it.Wild,huh?

So I'm wondering after reading your post,what's it all about with these

various animal totems and if you can explain without busting the *container*,how

did you know what yours were?

Yes,Coyote is the Trickster but don't you think he/she has a great

sense of humor and playfulness? It seems to me that these spiritual beings have

a genuine playfulness--like the Golden Eagle in my dream chuckled mirthfully

when I said that I couldn't fly and said, " Fine.You can't fly.Then you can fall. "

But not in a derisive or criticizing way at all,more like it was a really

hilarious joke.And when I tried to fly and could it was just so f***ing

funny.The entire time we were flying together it was so playful,light

hearted...I was understanding the unity of all things,like apprehending it--and

quietly awed by it but also light heartedly blissful about it....and the flying

together was playing together: we were letting ourselves drop miles down to the

valley below like it was some silly ride then sort of spiritually laughing as we

caught a current to sail back up...

I have a Carolina Dog and was told she has " some Husky " in her but

I've asked myself many times if perhaps that wasn't quite true.When she got to

be about six months old people began to ask me, " Is that a Coyote? " As if I could

legally own one of those or as if I would keep a coyote chained to a life in

suburbia.I also got, " Is that a dingo? " Same reaction! Let me just say before I

go on that I went to great effort to properly socialize her with people and

other dogs.We were fortunate that for the first year of her life I had enough

money to not have to work; it was the perfect time to acquire a puppy.She's got

awesome social skills and I am so proud of her and how trustworthy she mostly

is.Having said that,there is this wildness in her that I have to keep one step

ahead of but that's ok because I know her like the back of my hand and she also

knows me,so we're in sync.But where I was going with this is that she is a

Trickster par excellence.She accepts my authority but does try to get around it

if she thinks she's got a chance--and when she manages to,I swear that dog is

laughing.Not at me.Just laughing because it is funny.She's an incorrigible

scavenger,something I just was not able to train her out of no matter how I

tried.It doesn't matter if she just ate--she will scavenge for the simple fun of

it.I try to stay a step ahead of that too as much as possible,but she has

employed some brilliant ruses to trick me out of maneouvering her away from her

prize.Which makes me laugh,too--because it's funny.

She's got this solitary minded " leader of the pack " mentality and always

wants to walk way ahead of me.I read that encourages dominance in an alpha bitch

but it's such a need she has,I don't make an issue of it.I walk her on a super

long Flexi lead I can rein back if I have to and mostly she's great with that

but occasionally will do something she KNOWS she is not supposed to do,like jump

gently playfully at someone going past,a little half skip not a full on leap.She

does this jokingly and the vast majority of people laugh out loud.It's

embarassing and I apologize but 99 & of the time people say oh no no it's

ok,she's cute...like they get the joy bringer aspect of her Trickster

playfulness and the rare ones who don't seem to have no sense of humor

anyway.Even when there's another dog across the street he'll try to engage them

in a little game of " see if you can beat the leader of the pack " by barking

playfully and running off ahead while she looks back over her shoulder like

she's laughing.Every time the dog across the street catches up to where she

is,she pretends to slow own then dashes far ahead,doing what I've come to call

her " coyote lope " ,which she also seems to do (and demonstrate) just for the

sheer joy of it.One of my nicknames for her is " coyote girl " .Her Trickster ways

bring a welcome touch of levity to my life--and the lives of the people who know

and love her--and the Trickster in her feels light hearted and spiritual to me

like the attitude of the Golden Eagle in my dream.

Can it be possible to have Mouse as a totem? Because I've had some

meaningful experiences with mice,doesn't that sound silly?! And dreams,too.Odd

since mice would be prey to an eagle.One night when I was extremely depressed

about something and just DRAGGING,I was walking my dog downtown and we were

about a block and a half away from a very popular 3 star rated restaurant and my

dog started to pull crazily at the very end of her long Flexi,practically

hopping which she does when she's really excited.It was late at night and there

was no one in sight.I couldn't figure out what in the world she was seeing or

sensing.

When we got closer to the restaurant she went nuts,whining and trying to

run.Then I saw them: a parade of mice running back and forth from under the door

of the 3 star restaurant to a trash can out on the street,back and forth.They

seemed to have been having quite a party before we showed up.I reined in the

Flexi but they had seen us and it was like they looked over and went " Oh,sh*t "

and they all took off running back under the door of the restaurant while my dog

fairly stood up on her hind legs with excitement.One poor soul mouse got left at

the trashcan--froze for a moment then ran from side to side like he just didn't

know what to do--then paused and decided to make a desperate run for it while my

dog barked at him.When the poor mouse got to the restaurant door he banged his

head on it in his haste and sort of staggered like a drunk,then gathered his

wits and slipped under the door--but not before taking one last defiant glance

at us as he went.

I had been at the end of my rope that night and there I was laughing so

hard the tears were streaming down my face.

I have lots of meaningful Deer moments,too.That is actually something

I've thought about,but never in the " totem " sense.Nada did a side gig as a

professional story teller,going to public libraries and the like.On long car

trips she'd get in the back seat with me and my brother and regale us with her

story telling skills--ha--not to recite fairy tales to her children for their

enjoyment,but to practice on us.I hated to watch her do her gigs.I accompanied

her many times on them.In the car,she'd get going in that Queen like (she used

the Queen for her public persona alot) voice,loving the very sound of it.To

me,it was like an arrogant drone on and on and on telling these fairy tales and

she'd get very annoyed with me if I dared to critique either their rationale or

their meaning or especially their happy ever after endings.So I tuned her out.

Often these car trips were along the wooded back roads going to the

Jersey shore or through woods up in the Poconos mountains in Pennsylvania.I

remember one time when I guess I was about four seeing a deer running through

the woods near the road up in the Poconos while nada was reciting a fairy tale

that I was tuning out--and the sudden profound breathless joy I felt.Much like

you described seeing the Golden Eagle at the town common: the deer was so

beautiful,so graceful and gentle,like an embodiment of gentleness and grace.The

car was driving along and the deer was running alongside where the car was

driving and it was all going so fast,like a pure energy of movement..the way I

felt when I was flying as a Golden Eagle in that dream...I pressed my face to

the window eyes riveted to the beautiful movement of the deer and tears filled

my eyes because the deer was so beautiful and free and just seeing the deer

there felt like a delight to my spirit,my soul...I never forgot that moment...I

have also lost much of my ability to access that feeling of spiritual ecstasy;

the last true moment I had like that has been quite a while but I can totally

relate to how you felt seeing the Pacific Ocean at Pt Reyes.

And to what you said about Bush,too.About being affected at a personal

emotional level by political events.I've had stuff like that going on with me

since I was a small child.Do you remember being sensitive like this as a kid? Or

has it been mainly as an adult? And I agree with you about the changes and I

feel strongly about things that are going on/going down here and abroad--but

make me stop before I start to rant....

>

> Wow, ~ That is a very powerful dream. Thank you for sharing it; I

cannot share mine since it was part of a process that takes place in a

*container* that is held to be secret (not because it is any big deal, but it is

for any future participants to not know what the event entails).

> To me your dream also points to what in the whole *Shadow Work* world is

called; Magician. The way you could see everything and understand all. (there

is a four quarters archetypal description of the human psyche: Warrior, Lover,

Magician, Sovereign) . I can see the *magician* in you, in your responses and

discussions, how you can see the larger picture and pull out the important

parts. (of course I can see the other aspects as well but this does stand out).

>

> In my experience, I became sort of startled by embodying the Golden Eagle; and

so I came from it pretty fast. (My mind, with ADD, has a hard time staying with

things once I over-notice them, unless of course it's a sad mood...). But

before this happened I had a curious pre-quel. I was at a bird demonstration on

the town common. At one point, the woman pulled out a Golden Eagle. When I

looked at this bird, tears started flowing from my eyes. She was so beautiful;

her beauty connected right with my soul. I glanced around the room to see if

anyone else was tearing up, but no. It was a very powerful experience too. (I

have pretty much lost this connection to ecstatic experiences in the past few

years, sadly, although when I first gazed at the Pacific Ocean from Pt. Reyes

National Park, I was stunned by the beauty, and felt a connection to my soul

that day).

>

> I have found that I have four significant totem animals. One

(fortunately/unfortunately) is Coyote, the trickster. This came to me in a

dream when I was in my twenties (and pretty much characterizes me ). The

other is Weasel, who is a creature that has a *knowing* of what is going on that

is not being said, and about other people's activities and motivations. The

other is Deer. I've had a few powerful experiences with Deer. And Deer reminds

me about gentleness. Not just towards others but to myself.

>

> I have lost my connection, like I said. Sadly. I have gone through a bad

loss of faith, for various reasons. The natural world is my spiritual place and

I have lost that; maybe it is the depression from grief, or the anger at the way

I've gotten my life to where it is where I feel so stuck. (and not just anger

at the choices I've made but why I made them, as well as the choices of the

other things like the school system , and blah blah blah, I could go on).

> I remember when this first started happening; it was probably three years ago,

and something political happened, something with Bush, and I began to feel so

down about how things were turning in this country that I thought about living

abroad.

> Things have changed in this country that makes it really hard for people who

are anything less than completely stable, to feel like they can really make it

or get anywhere. Being a single woman with a crappy job and a teenage to get

through school (because I believe in his intelligence and abilities more than

anyone else in the world does) is very daunting.

>

> Anyway....thank you for sharing your dream. That will make me think of Golden

Eagle again and feel a pleasure that someone else had this vision unexpectedly.

I will have to think why I could not fly as you did but was afraid to fly *as

the eagle*.

> Or too freaked out by it.

> ~patricia

> Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

>

>

> ,that's weird...my totem is Golden Eagle,too.I don't know if I have

another one--I guess I do? Since you having Deer along with Golden Eagle makes

soul sense.

>

> When I was in my mid twenties I had an incredibly vivid dream that I

was in an airplane (not long after having been in a real one that had had to

make an emergency landing--instead of working it through I allowed the terror of

that moment to develop into a flying phobia and I flew on airplanes quite

frequently,so it became like this ongoing head trip/nightmare thing for

me)--anyway,the dream airplane I was in crashed into a mountain side and

magically dissolved,leaving me hanging in the air realizing that I was going to

fall.A Golden Eagle appeared above me and told me that I could fly and chuckled

at me when I said I couldn't.Bla bla bla but we ended up flying together between

mountains,me as a Golden Eagle as well,no longer human.But more like a soul

version of one.I could see everything with the flicker fusion sight of a Golden

Eagle--the shadows billowing in the crevices of the rock face; the multiple hues

of color flashing across the snow on the mountain tops,shifting and changing

with the wind.I had a sensation of total liberation and total understanding of

all things,catching the currents and pockets of air and swooping up and circling

down between the mountains or gliding on a breeze.And a total sense of

peace,safety,and power.

>

> At the end of this dream the Golden Eagle gave me a name to call

and a symbol in the sky to meditate on if ever I needed them in a moment of

distress.When I got panic attacks with a racing heart after that,all I had to do

was refocus on that dream and the feeling from it and the panic attack would

just stop.

>

> I still say that name/think of that feeling/visualize that symbol

when I need it.The Golden Eagle seemed to me to be a manifestation of my soul or

my soul's power.To me,the Golden Eagle sees very acutely and accepts necessity.

>

> (Very un-apropos of this--I have to go walk my dog now...)

>

>

>

>

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Your description of the witch sounds like something from my own journal.  I'm

so sorry you've had to deal with that, I dont' think anyone should have to.  I

get a specific headache when the witch is around, or if she's lurking about to

come out (sometimes nada gets that cunning malicious look in tiny flashes that

tell me the witch is looking out, or sometimes the witch just appears).  I

haven't reached a conclusion about who's the real mom.  My mom's a bit

complicated (my therapist a few years ago who specialized in working with

borderlines said my mom is borderline to the max and seems to have every known

possible characteristic, so that might be why).  I tried very hard to fit her

into a profile from UBM, and realized she uses waif/hermit and queen at various

times.  I would say she's in hermit/queen mode most of the time, then waif's on

me whenever I would get a little independent, and then there were random terror

attacks from the witch.  I've

decided that mostly she's a hermit, and that's the mode I can tolerate best. 

She seems to have some kind of affection for me in that mode, and I've decided

to take that at face value and believe that that side does exist.  But I have

learned never to forget that in the end, my mother is my enemy and does not

really like ME, the me that is myself and not her mirror, and so I never trust

her.  Does that make any sense?  I try to enjoy her when she is tolerable, but

not ever to let myself go around her.  But sometimes i wonder if maybe she is

truly the witch, and the rest is sham.  I find that the more I successfully set

boundaries with her and she behaves herself more often, I see the witch peeking

out frequently, always trying to find a chink in my armor. 

One thing that made me sad was when you talked about your fear of the witch and

how you can't protect yourself.  I experience the same, when the witch shows up

I can't stop her.  But the chapter on loving witches without becoming their

victim really helped me.  I wasn't sure it would work, but I took the advice

and just started leaving when the witch showed up. One time she when she was

physically violent and I tried to leave she accused me of being drunk, stole my

car keys, wouldn't let me call a friend and got the whole family to gang up on

me.  I just was very persistent.  Eventually I stole a phone and called my

pastor on Christmas eve (oh yes, crazy right...)  He picked me up and took me

to stay with a family in my church so I wouldn't have to be alone on

Christmas.  It was awful.  But that was the second to last time my mom beat me

up.  I was 24.  The last time was very similar, except someone else eventually

picked me up.  She

learned.  Over time the same process started to work on some of the verbal

abuse too.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sat, March 6, 2010 5:08:32 PM

Subject: Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

 

,your " rambling " is very helpful--and very thoughtful and sweet

I can't seem to locate that particular " 6 of Clouds " card on that page but I

saved the site because I enjoyed reading the Zen Buddhist interpretations of the

different cards.Thank you for passing that along.

And thank you so much for your compassion and understanding. I can get how it's

terrifying to look at the Witch shadow.I guess it's sort of like having the

mother reach up suddenly and pull off her face like it was only a mask she was

wearing and underneath the mask is this absolutely hideous creature from some

unknown dimension.And what do you do with THAT???? I have brief flashbacks

occasionally of nada in all her Witchy fury screaming at me.They only last a

couple of seconds,but they're real flashbacks in the clinical sense,like it's

happening now and for those few seconds it's right in front of me and totally

real.Thankfully they only happen once in a great while when I'm really stressed

out over some nada issue I'm trying to process or integrate.I think they're

flashbacks of very early events because bizarrely nada has the same exact

hairstyle,weight, look in the flashbacks that she has in photos from when I was

younger than two.And during the

flashback itself what I'm seeing screaming at me isn't my mother--it's this

terrifying,out of control,hideous CREATURE that I am totally helpless to protect

myself against.It feels like a moment way beyond just mere insanity that is

assaulting me--it feels like every single element of the universe is warped in

an evil way that is murderous personally to me--and I can do nothing to stop it.

So,uhm yeah,I don't blame you at all that you can't stand seeing the Witch.The

questions she brings up are just...almost impossible to wrap your head around.I

think that for my nada,the Witch IS what she really is and the Waif is what she

wants to deceive others into believing she is because that can get the Witch

what she has decided she wants,but basically she is the Witch.So maybe your nada

really is the Waif but if it's useful to her and can be used to the advantage of

her Waif by making that Waif " powerful " ,she will use her Witch to deceive.This

is why I see the Waif as so much more powerful than the Witch,because in my

experience the Waif always got the Witch exactly what she wanted.

What you said about Karl Rove is straight out of the Bully's Handbook.What

a....I guess nada missed her true calling: she had that tactic sussed as well as

many other unsavory ones.They truly are Machiavellian.

And yes,the constant attacks on my self concept either of me as a decent,good

person or as someone who was capable of successfully taking the initiative to

protect myself or act in my own best interests was incredibly damaging.Condemned

by the whole world almost,it seemed,for crimes I had neither imagined nor

committed.Thanks for understanding that.

> >

> > Hi , your thoughts are absolutely helpful to me! You've definitely

got me thinking about the possible Warlock issue. I only wish I had more energy

to respond more thoroughly. I'm a bit tired and fuzzy headed tonight, so I'll

simpy share this as a reply...

> >

> > Check out the " 6 of Clouds " /The Burden card on this page.

> > http://misfitslife. com/zen.htm

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I'm so sorry you had to deal with that,too,More Private.It's definitely cruel

and inhumane punishment

> > >

> > > Hi , your thoughts are absolutely helpful to me! You've

definitely got me thinking about the possible Warlock issue. I only wish I had

more energy to respond more thoroughly. I'm a bit tired and fuzzy headed

tonight, so I'll simpy share this as a reply...

> > >

> > > Check out the " 6 of Clouds " /The Burden card on this page.

> > > http://misfitslife. com/zen.htm

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

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>

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