Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

[Guest guest]

Very poignant.

I know it was rhetorical, but: daughters are there to give love to, to

encourage, to support, to be present for, and to raise. Daughters are there to

watch grow up, become independent, and celebrate. And MOTHERS are there to give

financial support to their DAUGHTERS. Not the other way around. No mother in

her right mind (there's the rub) would ever ever ever ask for a frickin' house

and new car. That goes against all that is good and decent in mothering.

Thanks for the post--

Blessings,

Karla

>

> I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

>

> But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to live

the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her. So

I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

>

> I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Yeah, the guilt just basically never stops. I love and hate your last question:

what's a daughter for? Meaning/purpose are definitely distorted in my KO world

view. In fact, for me, there almost was no definition of myself except relative

to nada. Maybe...maybe it's possible that we don't need to have a purpose other

than to exist lovingly and mindfully (and be accountable for the natural

resources we consume). We don't have to save our parents or be super-heroes of

any sort. What a strange concept: we just are and that's enough. Someday, I

hope that I fully feel that!

-lisa

>

> I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

>

> But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to live

the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her. So

I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

>

> I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Karla...what you describe is some sort of alternate universe to me. I

learned that if I wasn't " of use " then I didn't matter at all. Even though I

talked a lot about the financial expectations, emotionally it's the same too.

Totally one way street with her pretending it is two way. And if I point out it

is not two way - a very rare event - let's just there is a Witch hiding in the

Waif.

> >

> > I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

> >

> > But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to

live the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her.

So I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

> >

> > I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I relate to you very much as my mother is a waife as well. I too have suffered

guilt and something clicked one day when enough was enough. Nada gambeld and

spent folishly $300 000 that she got from a settlement of another broken

relationship over a couple of years.

We had advised her to invest in a unit or something but now it is all gone and

she had to move again. This time with another lady she doesn't know very well

that is giving her cheap rent. She self-sabotages herself than plays the victim.

She also extreme envy for my life. Once she even said " I must of did something

right you turned out ok. " ( an extension of her) I turned out alright after

years of therapy and self help books from her crazy mothering. Not to mention 2

suicide attempts in my teenage years because I was afraid I was turning into

her.

She will be 60 soon I am 40 and I think that is enough time to realise she wont

change and LET GO. I tried to fix her support her, love her enough to change. Of

course it didn't work. I also felt it was my duty. That is what you did when

it was out of LOVE for your MOTHER.

We have suffered enough, wasted enough of OUR LIVES. Please say GOOD-BYE TO

GUILT as I have. We deserve a happy life. We must set ourselves free of being

the MOTHER. It does not serve us well and we deserve better.

I now have a daughter 8yrs and I would never burden her with my troubles and

train her to be there for my everything.

It is very sad you had to do this for your Nada too.

You have the right to your own life without being her life line.

Life is short Nadas destroy so much of it that be strong and don't let her take

anymore of your valuable life and energy.

YOU ARE NOT THE MOTHER. SHE IS AN ADULT. SHE WILL SURVIVE. SHE WILL FIND

OTHERS OUT THERE THAT WILL DO YOUR JOB IF YOU LET HER GO.

It is hard I know all too well how hard it is. Please stay strong and LOVE

YOURSELF.

That is what I pray for every day. Strength to keep strong and guilt free.

Confirmation that I am doing what is best for me and my famiy.

Some days are better than others. One step at a time. We will get there. It

is getting easier for me. It has been a year LC for me. Not sure how long for

you or if you are LC.

Take Care,

Kazam x

p.s. REMEMBER GOOD-BYE TO GUILT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stay strong my fellow daughter of a waife.

>

> I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

>

> But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to live

the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her. So

I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

>

> I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Absolutely . That sounds like what a healthy life would be. And you are

right it's this pressure to be a super-hero - how crazy is it to raise a child

with that expectation?

> >

> > I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

> >

> > But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to

live the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her.

So I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

> >

> > I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

A daughter is there for things a bpd has no use for--to be proud of and to watch

grow up into a wonderful adult, to be a separate and unique person with her own,

amazingly different ideas about things, her own experiences, and her own needs

and feelings.  A daughter is most definitely not there to use.

I'm sorry for your legacy.

Take care,

Ashana

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Tue, 2 March, 2010 6:45:37 PM

Subject: Guilt - what's it all about?

 

I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of her...as

she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great for

my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be worse.

If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the implication is that

I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived in, every

conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she doesn't

have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to buy the

NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered to buy

her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she refused

it because she didn't like where it was -

in the city with her sister where she now lives - a move I paid for out of

dwindling savings. If I am healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes

sure to imply an envy there and carry on about things that are in part simply

old age. Refusing to accept the consequences of her life and simple

age...putting pressure in a million subtle ways to let me know, I should make it

right or at least console her and feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can

stand upright if she stumbles. That's always been what love was defined as -

what I was supposed to be for her.

But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to live

the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her. So I've

said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of resentment

and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite conversations.

And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm smart enough not

to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the past

forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a nervous

breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or subsidize her

buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her companion travel

agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the life she's created. I

just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a daughter for?

Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW!

http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/

[Guest guest]

Oh, boy, I can really relate. I was having a conversation with my mother once

(years ago, when I still had " real " conversations with her) - about the plans my

husband and I had made for careers, retirement, etc. - and she asked, " well, how

much of this am I entitled to? " - It caught me off-guard. I said, " I'm talking

about OUR retirement. You aren't ENTITLED to any part of it. " She became very

upset and started lecturing me about how she had cared for HER mother,

grandmother, and disabled sister (she did provide respite care and financial

support when she was able, but they lived independently, too) - I realized that

she had been raised to think she was responsible for her entire family, and was

expecting me to have the same mindset. She was bitterly disappointed that I did

not see myself as her caretaker. She's tried to force me into that role for

years, while I kicked and struggled, moved across country, and guarded my credit

rating with my life. She's tried to get me to co-sign dozens of loans,

cellphone contracts, insurance policies, furniture purchases, etc. She wants me

to go clean her house, take her to every doctor's appointment, help her write

the monthly utility bill checks, buy everybody Christmas gifts in her name, and

basically be at her beck and call at all times. She just can't accept that I

don't agree to put my life at her service. This makes me a very bad daughter,

in her eyes.

I have teased my son that I want him to get a good education so he can buy me a

condo in Florida - but he knows I'm kidding.

>

>

>

> A daughter is there for things a bpd has no use for--to be proud of and to

watch grow up into a wonderful adult, to be a separate and unique person with

her own, amazingly different ideas about things, her own experiences, and her

own needs and feelings.  A daughter is most definitely not there to use.

>

> I'm sorry for your legacy.

>

> Take care,

> Ashana

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

>

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Sent: Tue, 2 March, 2010 6:45:37 PM

> Subject: Guilt - what's it all about?

>

>  

> I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of her...as

she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great for

my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be worse.

If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the implication is that

I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived in, every

conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she doesn't

have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to buy the

NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered to buy

her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she refused

it because she didn't like where it was -

> in the city with her sister where she now lives - a move I paid for out of

dwindling savings. If I am healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes

sure to imply an envy there and carry on about things that are in part simply

old age. Refusing to accept the consequences of her life and simple

age...putting pressure in a million subtle ways to let me know, I should make it

right or at least console her and feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can

stand upright if she stumbles. That's always been what love was defined as -

what I was supposed to be for her.

>

> But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to live

the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her. So I've

said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of resentment

and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite conversations.

And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm smart enough not

to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

>

> I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a nervous

breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or subsidize her

buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her companion travel

agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the life she's created. I

just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a daughter for?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Your Mail works best with the New Yahoo Optimized IE8. Get it NOW!

http://downloads.yahoo.com/in/internetexplorer/

>

>

[Guest guest]

,I don't know if this will resonate with you at all or make sense--or if I

can explain it less than just purely subjectively! But I've been realizing

lately that lo and behold,my mainly Witch nada had a fair amount of Waif in

her,too.I used to think she pulled the Waif crap mainly on my brother but she

did actually do it with me,too.It was her trump card when the Witch routine

didn't work on me because I had learned to disregard it.

And what happened,I've realized very recently,is that I never learned how

to manage the Waif.Any Waif! It's coming at me at times in my life now,that

whenever I encounter some kind of Waifiness in other people,I feel helpless

before it and yet (unheathily,I know) compelled to react to it,and yet even as I

do,I continue to feel helpless and just generally inadequate and like some kind

of a jerk.And that my real issue here is an unconscious compulsion to keep the

Waif in others from " coming out " ,to avoid having to feel those feelings of

helplessness.

Back to guilt--and what is one of the " functions " of guilt?--is that

guilt can seem a more palatable feeling than sheer helplessness although it is

also a manifestation of feeling helpless.Just that while you're feeling guilty

it can appear as if you are somehow " working on " feeling helpless even though

it's a vicious cycle since guilt reminds you that you think you didn't do

something right,which in turn reinforces feelings of helplessness because it you

had known what to do or had just done it right,now you wouldn't feel guilty--and

if you had known what to do right,you wouldn't have had to feel helpless.Feeling

helpless is unbearable,so we return to the " function " of guilt.

My thing lately is seeing that I need to learn how to handle the Waif.I

can walk away from the Witch if she comes out in someone--but I think I must

have spent alot of unconscious energy growing up on doing whatever I could do

keep nada's Waif from coming out because it was her one trump threat that

rendered me at her mercy--and in an underlying way she raised me as her daughter

to want to keep all of the world's Waifiness " better " --that is what *this*

daughter is for,what the " world " (in the guise of nada who once WAS the world to

me) expects of me.Although of course it doesn't--and it is seeming to me right

now that what I need to do is acquire some real,adult tools to manage my

relationship with the Waif no matter how or where she comes out in other

people,in the world around me.I need to learn how to walk away from the Waif

just like I can with the Witch.

Wanting to be helpful or to contribute in the world is all fine and

good,but when it's healthy--not when it's just an unconscious desire to sate the

Waif or to " fix " the Waifiness in the world.And NOT when the " contribution "

makes me feel guilty for reasons that seem to make no objective sense.

Maybe there is one of the borderline archetypes that you are also

helpless against when it manifests itself either in your nada,other people,or in

the world--and so you make unconscious efforts to keep that archetype from

" coming out " /coming at you? I don't think I've explained it very well because

this is all new to me,this Waif connection to my own feeling guilty and

inadequate,but just in case something like that could be relevant to you,I

mention it.

And sorry,this post was something of a rush job,writing this now before

these thoughts get lost in the rest of the day!

>

> I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

>

> But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to live

the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her. So

I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

>

> I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

my nada called one day several years ago and said she had figured out the

perfect plan for all of us !! My hubby and I had been wondering where we'd

go when he retires in 2014 or 15....she said we should sell our house here,

move in with them ( they live 425 north in another state)..sell the horses,

sell our vehicles as we could use theirs, and hubby could take care of the

house and yard, and I would take care of the inside of the house and them !!

she said they'd even consider putting up a small fenced area in the yard (

they have a normal sized town lot, and I had 2 dogs over 100 pounds!!) for

the dogs !!! Their house is smaller than my house here, theirs is 1100 sq

ft...and four people will live there ?? she said we'd have to get rid of

all of our stuff, of course!! the funny thing is they did NOT take care of

their elderly parents or her older siblings at all !! yet she expects that

I will do this ( just me, not any of my siblings either !!)

Jackie

Oh, boy, I can really relate. I was having a conversation with my mother

once (years ago, when I still had " real " conversations with her) - about the

plans my husband and I had made for careers, retirement, etc. - and she

asked, " well, how much of this am I entitled to? " - It caught me off-guard.

I said, " I'm talking about OUR retirement. You aren't ENTITLED to any part

of it. " She became very upset and started lecturing me about how she had

cared for HER mother, grandmother, and disabled sister (she did provide

respite care and financial support when she was able, but they lived

independently, too) - I realized that she had been raised to think she was

responsible for her entire family, and was expecting me to have the same

mindset. She was bitterly disappointed that I did not see myself as her

caretaker. She's tried to force me into that role for years, while I kicked

and struggled, moved across country, and guarded my credit rating with my

life. She's tried to get me to co-sign dozens of loans, cellphone

contracts, insurance policies, furniture purchases, etc. She wants me to go

clean her house, take her to every doctor's appointment, help her write the

monthly utility bill checks, buy everybody Christmas gifts in her name, and

basically be at her beck and call at all times. She just can't accept that

I don't agree to put my life at her service. This makes me a very bad

daughter, in her eyes.

I have teased my son that I want him to get a good education so he can buy

me a condo in Florida - but he knows I'm kidding.

[Guest guest]

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Jackie and , those stories are outrageous--I have to wonder what goes

on in a BP's mind, sometimes, to think they're entitled to that

~Holly

[Guest guest]

To me, the waifyness in my nada is just another manipulation tactic I have now

mostly grown an immunity to.

It does still tend to make me feel like I'm being cruel and heartless to ignore

her (very real, in the moment) sobbing and contrition, but I've been shown way

too many times in the past that her feelings of remorse or sadness can flip off

like a light switch if she becomes triggered into rage again.

When I was a little kid, I had to " shut off " my feelings and go numb and passive

(dissociate) when she'd rage at me and beat me (my screaming in terror and

crying just made her more enraged) so, I can now utilize the same " shut off "

mechanism when she turns on the waterworks.

Let me be clear that I don't mock her, I don't rage at her, I don't call her

names, I don't hit her, I just simply do not respond: I am neutral.

I don't feel guilty (well, not very much) and I don't feel a need to make her

feel better; not any more. She used this tactic on me for decades, and I did

feel very guilty and I did respond to her in empathy and try to make her feel

better. But now I recognize it as a pattern, a well-established pattern of

behavior in our relationship, and its just not healthy.

With my nada, her tears and apologies are mostly a way to avoid negative

consequences to her behaviors. It used to effectively shut off any expression

of anger toward her on my part, any hurt on my part, and all the trauma and

damage done by her was supposed to be instantly erased by her tearful apology.

And, well, yes, that is the way its supposed to work in a normal relationship

with a normal, non-pd person, but with a pd individual like my nada, the crying

and and the blubbering apology is only genuine in that moment, and the remorse

and the promises evaporate in the next instant when she's triggered (by God

knows what) into another rage.

So, again, as always in my life, I am in a no-win situation. I can either

accept my nada's apologies and tear-streaked remorse and " make up " with her only

to be punched in the gut again later, when she " forgets " about promising to

never to do/say that again (sort of like Charlie Brown and Lucy and the football

routine) OR I can just be neutral and ignore her when she's sad and remorseful

and feel like a heartless bitch.

(((((sigh)))))

-Annie

> >

> > I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

> >

> > But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to

live the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her.

So I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

> >

> > I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I struggle with this, too : >>What a strange concept: we just are and that's

enough. Someday, I hope that I fully feel that! <<

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Wednesday, March 3, 2010, 4:37 AM

> Hi ,

>

> Yeah, the guilt just basically never stops.  I love

> and hate your last question:  what's a daughter

> for?  Meaning/purpose are definitely distorted in my KO

> world view.  In fact, for me, there almost was no

> definition of myself except relative to nada. 

> Maybe...maybe it's possible that we don't need to have a

> purpose other than to exist lovingly and mindfully (and be

> accountable for the natural resources we consume).  We

> don't have to save our parents or be super-heroes of any

> sort.  What a strange concept:  we just are and

> that's enough.  Someday, I hope that I fully feel

> that! 

>

> -lisa

>

>

> >

> > I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my

> nada's happiness, unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name

> it.   Because see I was a part of her...as

> she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to

> her was also happening to me.   As a kid that

> resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no trouble, very

> helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and

> moods.   Not great for my development, but

> not so awful.  But I find the legacy as an adult to be

> worse.   If I have more money than her and

> she has money troubles the implication is that I should give

> it.  If I live in a city she wishes she lived in, every

> conversation is about envying what I have or frustration

> with what she doesn't have where she is.  This can be

> about things as trivial as being able to buy the NY

> Times.  Once upon a time when I was briefly very

> successful I offered to buy her an entire house, outright

> that she could live in for free, but she refused it because

> she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

> where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling

> savings.   If I am healthier than her while

> she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there and

> carry on about things that are in part simply old age. 

> Refusing to accept the consequences of her life and simple

> age...putting pressure in a million subtle ways to let me

> know, I should make it right or at least console her and

> feel awful with her.   Be the crutch so she

> can stand upright if she stumbles.   That's

> always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed

> to be for her.   

> >

> > But now...she's in the golden years and the level of

> crutch she needs to live the life she imagines she should

> live is beyond anything I can give her.   So

> I've said no, many times.  And life goes on but the

> constant low level of resentment and envy is always there

> underlying what looks like nice polite

> conversations.   And guilt???  I like to

> say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm smart enough not to -

> but it sneaks in and is my undoing. 

> >

> > I can't make her young again.   I can't

> make her financial decisions for the past forty years any

> different.   I can't move her to my city -

> I'd have a nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat.  I

> can't buy her a house anymore or subsidize her buying a

> nicer one.  I can't make her well.   I

> can't be her companion travel agent.   I can

> never ever make her okay with herself and the life she's

> created.  I just can't.   And if I can't

> do all that, then what's a daughter for?

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

LOL I know !!! not in my wildest dreams would I ever want to move in with

my parents for any reason !! and you KNOW since they'd own everything,

they'd have total control and be bossy and bullying...nada is still angry

that we wont even consider this arrangement !!!

Jackie

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Jackie and , those stories are outrageous--I have to wonder what goes

on in a BP's mind, sometimes, to think they're entitled to that

~Holly

[Guest guest]

OH OH OH OH OH OH OH OH OH MY GOD!!!!!!

Again the " WOW " factor of identical situations hit!!!!

MY degree/life/job is supposed to be HER retirement plan! She's 100% convinced

that I'm going to buy a huge house and she will have her own " separate house " on

the property, a MIL house, so she can " help " and " be helped " ... and ANY DAY NOW

this will happen. Because 'that's what real family does.'

Um... NO mom... it isn't. When I point out that she hasn't SEEN her own mother

for 14 years, she blames ME for it. Huh...?

She's also very excited that I'm getting married to an Attorney because that

means between THE TWO OF US - we'll have more than enough to take care of her

every last need in style. Sorry, his ex-wife was also BPD... he KNOWS!!! Not

gonna happen.

Although she's managed to manipulate her current match.com man out of $750,000

is promised and signed assests, she still thinks she's coming " home to me " when

he dies. NOT A CHANCE!!!

The parents goal is to raise independent children who leave the nest healthy and

happy... not put land mines around the perimeter to keep their own parents from

sneaking back in. The common media phrase focuses on " Boomerang Kids " ... what

about " Boomerang Parents " who didn't plan for their own lives?

ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Lynnette

" She just can't accept that I don't agree to put my life at her service. "

>

> my nada called one day several years ago and said she had figured out the

> perfect plan for all of us !! My hubby and I had been wondering where we'd

> go when he retires in 2014 or 15....she said we should sell our house here,

> move in with them ( they live 425 north in another state)..sell the horses,

> sell our vehicles as we could use theirs, and hubby could take care of the

> house and yard, and I would take care of the inside of the house and them !!

> she said they'd even consider putting up a small fenced area in the yard (

> they have a normal sized town lot, and I had 2 dogs over 100 pounds!!) for

> the dogs !!! Their house is smaller than my house here, theirs is 1100 sq

> ft...and four people will live there ?? she said we'd have to get rid of

> all of our stuff, of course!! the funny thing is they did NOT take care of

> their elderly parents or her older siblings at all !! yet she expects that

> I will do this ( just me, not any of my siblings either !!)

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Oh, boy, I can really relate. I was having a conversation with my mother

> once (years ago, when I still had " real " conversations with her) - about the

> plans my husband and I had made for careers, retirement, etc. - and she

> asked, " well, how much of this am I entitled to? " - It caught me off-guard.

> I said, " I'm talking about OUR retirement. You aren't ENTITLED to any part

> of it. " She became very upset and started lecturing me about how she had

> cared for HER mother, grandmother, and disabled sister (she did provide

> respite care and financial support when she was able, but they lived

> independently, too) - I realized that she had been raised to think she was

> responsible for her entire family, and was expecting me to have the same

> mindset. She was bitterly disappointed that I did not see myself as her

> caretaker. She's tried to force me into that role for years, while I kicked

> and struggled, moved across country, and guarded my credit rating with my

> life. She's tried to get me to co-sign dozens of loans, cellphone

> contracts, insurance policies, furniture purchases, etc. She wants me to go

> clean her house, take her to every doctor's appointment, help her write the

> monthly utility bill checks, buy everybody Christmas gifts in her name, and

> basically be at her beck and call at all times. She just can't accept that

> I don't agree to put my life at her service. This makes me a very bad

> daughter, in her eyes.

>

> I have teased my son that I want him to get a good education so he can buy

> me a condo in Florida - but he knows I'm kidding.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You nailed it Annie.

This is EXACTLY what I've said to my therapist over the last 2+ years. I'm

learning to not care. Sad, hard but real and necessary.

Lynnette

> > >

> > > I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

> > >

> > > But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to

live the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her.

So I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

> > >

> > > I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for

the past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

my nada once told me she let her kids get too independent !!...what she

doesn't seem to understand is THEY moved away from 3 of their 5 kids !! they

were only 2-3 hours drive from 3 of their kids in OH...but when fada

retired they went back to their home town area ( although all but my fathers

father were gone, and he was in a nursing home)so they didn't take care for

their parents/family...I'm the closest at 425 miles away...

Jackie

OH OH OH OH OH OH OH OH OH MY GOD!!!!!!

Again the " WOW " factor of identical situations hit!!!!

MY degree/life/job is supposed to be HER retirement plan! She's 100%

convinced that I'm going to buy a huge house and she will have her own

" separate house " on the property, a MIL house, so she can " help " and " be

helped " ... and ANY DAY NOW this will happen. Because 'that's what real

family does.'

Um... NO mom... it isn't. When I point out that she hasn't SEEN her own

mother for 14 years, she blames ME for it. Huh...?

She's also very excited that I'm getting married to an Attorney because that

means between THE TWO OF US - we'll have more than enough to take care of

her every last need in style. Sorry, his ex-wife was also BPD... he

KNOWS!!! Not gonna happen.

Although she's managed to manipulate her current match.com man out of

$750,000 is promised and signed assests, she still thinks she's coming " home

to me " when he dies. NOT A CHANCE!!!

The parents goal is to raise independent children who leave the nest healthy

and happy... not put land mines around the perimeter to keep their own

parents from sneaking back in. The common media phrase focuses on

" Boomerang Kids " ... what about " Boomerang Parents " who didn't plan for their

own lives? ARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!

Lynnette

" She just can't accept that I don't agree to put my life at her service. "

[Guest guest]

it IS sad, and hard but yes, necessary..I have made it there...my father is

dying of congestive heart failure. I try to sound concerned, but I'm not.

He was never there for us, he never protected us or stood up for us, and

many times threw us under the bus to save himself....I feel badly he's going

through this, but not badly that my father is dying, if you can understand

the difference I mean

Jackie

You nailed it Annie.

This is EXACTLY what I've said to my therapist over the last 2+ years. I'm

learning to not care. Sad, hard but real and necessary.

Lynnette

[Guest guest]

My mom also wants us to sell our cramped little house (which we bought because

of the school zone, and which is too small for Nada to come live with us -

bonus)and buy a McMansion in the neighborhood so she can move into a MIL suite.

The fact that she DID this already when my son was an infant, and that it was

miserable for all concerned, has apparently escaped her memory.

We cannot afford a McMansion. We can barely afford this quonset hut we're

living in now. Even if we could, we would not move her in with us again. We

may be slow, but we are educable!

She resurrects this plan about every 12 to 18 months, makes multiple phone calls

about it, and then gets mad when I tell her it's NOT going to happen. Ever.

> >

> > my nada called one day several years ago and said she had figured out the

> > perfect plan for all of us !! My hubby and I had been wondering where we'd

> > go when he retires in 2014 or 15....she said we should sell our house here,

> > move in with them ( they live 425 north in another state)..sell the horses,

> > sell our vehicles as we could use theirs, and hubby could take care of the

> > house and yard, and I would take care of the inside of the house and them !!

> > she said they'd even consider putting up a small fenced area in the yard (

> > they have a normal sized town lot, and I had 2 dogs over 100 pounds!!) for

> > the dogs !!! Their house is smaller than my house here, theirs is 1100 sq

> > ft...and four people will live there ?? she said we'd have to get rid of

> > all of our stuff, of course!! the funny thing is they did NOT take care of

> > their elderly parents or her older siblings at all !! yet she expects that

> > I will do this ( just me, not any of my siblings either !!)

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > Oh, boy, I can really relate. I was having a conversation with my mother

> > once (years ago, when I still had " real " conversations with her) - about the

> > plans my husband and I had made for careers, retirement, etc. - and she

> > asked, " well, how much of this am I entitled to? " - It caught me off-guard.

> > I said, " I'm talking about OUR retirement. You aren't ENTITLED to any part

> > of it. " She became very upset and started lecturing me about how she had

> > cared for HER mother, grandmother, and disabled sister (she did provide

> > respite care and financial support when she was able, but they lived

> > independently, too) - I realized that she had been raised to think she was

> > responsible for her entire family, and was expecting me to have the same

> > mindset. She was bitterly disappointed that I did not see myself as her

> > caretaker. She's tried to force me into that role for years, while I kicked

> > and struggled, moved across country, and guarded my credit rating with my

> > life. She's tried to get me to co-sign dozens of loans, cellphone

> > contracts, insurance policies, furniture purchases, etc. She wants me to go

> > clean her house, take her to every doctor's appointment, help her write the

> > monthly utility bill checks, buy everybody Christmas gifts in her name, and

> > basically be at her beck and call at all times. She just can't accept that

> > I don't agree to put my life at her service. This makes me a very bad

> > daughter, in her eyes.

> >

> > I have teased my son that I want him to get a good education so he can buy

> > me a condo in Florida - but he knows I'm kidding.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Another WOW here! The fantasy that I would buy a fancy house with a

mother-in-law type guest house attached to it for her to live in was huge for

her. And that of course would include me paying for all that and moving her

across the country to be in it. When I finally told her that was never ever

going to happen, her reaction was so horrifying to me that I went NC with her.

She believed my academic and career success meant a huge bonanza for *her*.

Never mind that my success in school was done all on my own with scholarships,

she never paid a dime. Never mind all the undermining. Every bit of that

success happened in spite of her. And ironically my loss of all that happened

in part because of the fleas I got from her and just the weak foundation in my

life. There was no support network if I fell, just hard concrete and I

shattered. And since I did she still occasionally tries to get me to cosign

something or acts like I'm in a position to do a lot for her.

No one warns poor kids - especially if they are from dysfunctional families -

that if they do work really hard in school and actually succeed in the dream of

becoming successful that there is a real risk of their FOO's latching on to them

expecting to be brought along. I'm not saying poor kids shouldn't try to

succeed for their own sake, but I wish I'd understood that my doing well would

only intensify the level of what my nada wanted from me. Still for me to do

badly enough that she would finally not see me as a resource for her would

sentence me to a pretty terrible life and I *don't* want that.

I see this thread has hit a chord with a lot of others here - it means so much

to be able to write about this here and know you guys understand. I'm sorry so

many of you go have gone through the same things. It's like we get these

mothers who do the minimum possible and worse and yet they expect to get these

super-daughters who give them everything. It's crazy.

HUGS to all of you.

> >

> > my nada called one day several years ago and said she had figured out the

> > perfect plan for all of us !! My hubby and I had been wondering where we'd

> > go when he retires in 2014 or 15....she said we should sell our house here,

> > move in with them ( they live 425 north in another state)..sell the horses,

> > sell our vehicles as we could use theirs, and hubby could take care of the

> > house and yard, and I would take care of the inside of the house and them !!

> > she said they'd even consider putting up a small fenced area in the yard (

> > they have a normal sized town lot, and I had 2 dogs over 100 pounds!!) for

> > the dogs !!! Their house is smaller than my house here, theirs is 1100 sq

> > ft...and four people will live there ?? she said we'd have to get rid of

> > all of our stuff, of course!! the funny thing is they did NOT take care of

> > their elderly parents or her older siblings at all !! yet she expects that

> > I will do this ( just me, not any of my siblings either !!)

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > Oh, boy, I can really relate. I was having a conversation with my mother

> > once (years ago, when I still had " real " conversations with her) - about the

> > plans my husband and I had made for careers, retirement, etc. - and she

> > asked, " well, how much of this am I entitled to? " - It caught me off-guard.

> > I said, " I'm talking about OUR retirement. You aren't ENTITLED to any part

> > of it. " She became very upset and started lecturing me about how she had

> > cared for HER mother, grandmother, and disabled sister (she did provide

> > respite care and financial support when she was able, but they lived

> > independently, too) - I realized that she had been raised to think she was

> > responsible for her entire family, and was expecting me to have the same

> > mindset. She was bitterly disappointed that I did not see myself as her

> > caretaker. She's tried to force me into that role for years, while I kicked

> > and struggled, moved across country, and guarded my credit rating with my

> > life. She's tried to get me to co-sign dozens of loans, cellphone

> > contracts, insurance policies, furniture purchases, etc. She wants me to go

> > clean her house, take her to every doctor's appointment, help her write the

> > monthly utility bill checks, buy everybody Christmas gifts in her name, and

> > basically be at her beck and call at all times. She just can't accept that

> > I don't agree to put my life at her service. This makes me a very bad

> > daughter, in her eyes.

> >

> > I have teased my son that I want him to get a good education so he can buy

> > me a condo in Florida - but he knows I'm kidding.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, fascinating you are right...for me the aspect that I'll stand on my

head and do back-flips to avoid is the Witch. My nada always has the Waif up

front and holds the Witch in reserve. It's amazing to me with all the strength

I can imagine it would take you to stand up to the Witch in your mother that the

Waif would get to you. I guess each of us has more practice with the dominant

type for our nadas. The power of the Waif to me seems that she plays on your

conception of yourself as a good person, and to refuse the Waif is to give the

opening to feel like " a bad person " and that can be powerful. To me the Witch

seems all aggression and cruelty, upfront, like a tsunami. A direct attack.

The Waif to me feels like a trojan horse designed to get you to attack yourself

for her.

> >

> > I was raised to feel guilty and responsible for my nada's happiness,

unhappiness, dreams, troubles you name it. Because see I was a part of

her...as she assured me all the time...so whatever was happening to her was also

happening to me. As a kid that resulted in me being *very* well behaved, no

trouble, very helpful, super-sensitive to her feelings and moods. Not great

for my development, but not so awful. But I find the legacy as an adult to be

worse. If I have more money than her and she has money troubles the

implication is that I should give it. If I live in a city she wishes she lived

in, every conversation is about envying what I have or frustration with what she

doesn't have where she is. This can be about things as trivial as being able to

buy the NY Times. Once upon a time when I was briefly very successful I offered

to buy her an entire house, outright that she could live in for free, but she

refused it because she didn't like where it was - in the city with her sister

where she now lives - a move I paid for out of dwindling savings. If I am

healthier than her while she is unhealthy, she makes sure to imply an envy there

and carry on about things that are in part simply old age. Refusing to accept

the consequences of her life and simple age...putting pressure in a million

subtle ways to let me know, I should make it right or at least console her and

feel awful with her. Be the crutch so she can stand upright if she stumbles.

That's always been what love was defined as - what I was supposed to be for her.

> >

> > But now...she's in the golden years and the level of crutch she needs to

live the life she imagines she should live is beyond anything I can give her.

So I've said no, many times. And life goes on but the constant low level of

resentment and envy is always there underlying what looks like nice polite

conversations. And guilt??? I like to say I don't ever feel guilty, that I'm

smart enough not to - but it sneaks in and is my undoing.

> >

> > I can't make her young again. I can't make her financial decisions for the

past forty years any different. I can't move her to my city - I'd have a

nervous breakdown in ten seconds flat. I can't buy her a house anymore or

subsidize her buying a nicer one. I can't make her well. I can't be her

companion travel agent. I can never ever make her okay with herself and the

life she's created. I just can't. And if I can't do all that, then what's a

daughter for?

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jackie, it is mind boggling to me that your nada wants that - good on you for

saying NO, over and over, as many times as it takes! The entitlement really is

breathtaking. How on earth she can imagine that you and your husband would want

to go from independent adults with your own home to being SERFS on her property

is incomprehensible!

>

> LOL I know !!! not in my wildest dreams would I ever want to move in with

> my parents for any reason !! and you KNOW since they'd own everything,

> they'd have total control and be bossy and bullying...nada is still angry

> that we wont even consider this arrangement !!!

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

>

> Jackie and , those stories are outrageous--I have to wonder what goes

> on in a BP's mind, sometimes, to think they're entitled to that

>

>

> ~Holly

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kazam fellow waif-daughter, thanks for the encouragement to say GOODBYE to

GUILT! I do want to say goodbye to it. I'm working on awareness and honesty

with myself about this issue - it's tricky because much of it has been

subconscious for so long. That's shocking that your mother gambled away that

much money - wow! I guess she has a real addiciton or do you think it's just

the entitlement of BPD in action?

One thing which is a powerful hold to keep me in the life line position is that

my mother will not necessarily find someone to replace me. It sounds like some

nadas maybe yours has a talent for finding others, but mine refuses to accept

help from anyone but family. She has taken this to extremes in the past letting

her physical and living conditions become frightening and unhealthy. Things are

better currently though and it is now more a case of psychological/emotional

waifdom. The next danger point comes when she can't live independently anymore

without a lot of aid. I'm hoping services can fill the gap and she'll be

forced to accept that but who knows.

Thanks for your support!

>

> Hi ,

> I relate to you very much as my mother is a waife as well. I too have

suffered guilt and something clicked one day when enough was enough. Nada

gambeld and spent folishly $300 000 that she got from a settlement of another

broken relationship over a couple of years.

> We had advised her to invest in a unit or something but now it is all gone and

she had to move again. This time with another lady she doesn't know very well

that is giving her cheap rent. She self-sabotages herself than plays the victim.

>

> She also extreme envy for my life. Once she even said " I must of did

something right you turned out ok. " ( an extension of her) I turned out

alright after years of therapy and self help books from her crazy mothering. Not

to mention 2 suicide attempts in my teenage years because I was afraid I was

turning into her.

>

> She will be 60 soon I am 40 and I think that is enough time to realise she

wont change and LET GO. I tried to fix her support her, love her enough to

change. Of course it didn't work. I also felt it was my duty. That is what you

did when it was out of LOVE for your MOTHER.

> We have suffered enough, wasted enough of OUR LIVES. Please say GOOD-BYE TO

GUILT as I have. We deserve a happy life. We must set ourselves free of being

the MOTHER. It does not serve us well and we deserve better.

> I now have a daughter 8yrs and I would never burden her with my troubles and

train her to be there for my everything.

> It is very sad you had to do this for your Nada too.

> You have the right to your own life without being her life line.

>

> Life is short Nadas destroy so much of it that be strong and don't let her

take anymore of your valuable life and energy.

> YOU ARE NOT THE MOTHER. SHE IS AN ADULT. SHE WILL SURVIVE. SHE WILL FIND

OTHERS OUT THERE THAT WILL DO YOUR JOB IF YOU LET HER GO.

> It is hard I know all too well how hard it is. Please stay strong and LOVE

YOURSELF.

> That is what I pray for every day. Strength to keep strong and guilt free.

Confirmation that I am doing what is best for me and my famiy.

> Some days are better than others. One step at a time. We will get there. It

is getting easier for me. It has been a year LC for me. Not sure how long for

you or if you are LC.

> Take Care,

> Kazam x

> p.s. REMEMBER GOOD-BYE TO GUILT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

> Stay strong my fellow daughter of a waife.

>

[Guest guest]

Count me in on the " Wow " factor on this one,too!

My nada used to harp and harp and rage about my credit history/credit score when

I was a college student, even deciding that the $200 I put on a credit card (for

an emergency room visit and crutches for a sprained ankle!) was going to ruin my

financial future and thus, ability to care for her...and that meant I had to

leave college for a semester to " fix " it. I even had to turn over my paychecks

to her for her to " manage " . I don't know why it didn't occur to me that I was

over the age of 18, paying for school on my own, and thus not obligated to do

what she told me to do.

Ten years ago or so I mentioned to her that I'd been thinking about long term

mission/volunteer work. She exploded...said it was the stupidest thing in the

world to do, especially financially. If I left my job, she raged, and worked

somewhere for free then how was I ever going to set aside enough money to take

care of her in her old age? At least by that point in time I had the gumption

to say " I thought you were saving for your own retirement...that's why you said

you couldn't help with college, because you were investing for your own

financial future. " Boy, that one didn't go over well. It also didn't go over

well with her when I actually did leave the next year to live/work at an

orphanage in the third world. Sure, at church she LOVED playing the

missionary's mom. But in private? Not only did she not contribute ANYTHING to

the fundraising I had to do to go, but less than two months after I left she and

her then-boyfriend sent me a nasty,

vicious email all about what a horrible, abusive, cruel, selfish person I was.

My crime? I had left her a prepacked box of things I would need that I couldn't

get down there (such as tampons), and cash to pay shipping. Once I knew of

someone from the US who was coming to visit, I trekked to town to email nada the

US address of that person because they were willing to carry the box down for me

(snail mail directly to the country could take up to 6 months). I sent the

email with profuse thanks for being willing to do this for me. THAT was my

crime.

She hates my career as a nanny... " I always used to tell people how smart you

are, but who would believe that now? " and " I can't believe you'd do this to

me...how are you going to save for your own retirement let alone take care of

me? "

NC has been a blessing in that sense...I feel kind of badly for my brother, but

he's already said she's never coming to live with him. Of course, he has yet to

tell HER that!

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Wednesday, March 3, 2010, 10:55 PM

> Another WOW

> here!   The fantasy that I would buy a fancy

> house with a mother-in-law type guest house attached to it

> for her to live in was huge for her.   And

> that of course would include me paying for all that and

> moving her across the country to be in

> it.   When I finally told her that was never

> ever going to happen, her reaction was so horrifying to me

> that I went NC with her.   She believed my

> academic and career success meant a huge bonanza for

> *her*.  Never mind that my success in school was done

> all on my own with scholarships, she never paid a

> dime.  Never mind all the undermining.  Every bit

> of that success happened in spite of her.  And

> ironically my loss of all that happened in part because of

> the fleas I got from her and just the weak foundation in my

> life.  There was no support network if I fell, just

> hard concrete and I shattered.  And since I did she

> still occasionally tries to get me to cosign something or

> acts like I'm in a position to do a lot for her. 

>

> No one warns poor kids - especially if they are from

> dysfunctional families - that if they do work really hard in

> school and actually succeed in the dream of becoming

> successful that there is a real risk of their FOO's latching

> on to them expecting to be brought along.  I'm not

> saying poor kids shouldn't try to succeed for their own

> sake, but I wish I'd understood that my doing well would

> only intensify the level of what my nada wanted from

> me.   Still for me to do badly enough that

> she would finally not see me as a resource for her would

> sentence me to a pretty terrible life and I *don't* want

> that.

>

> I see this thread has hit a chord with a lot of others here

> - it means so much to be able to write about this here and

> know you guys understand.  I'm sorry so many of you go

> have gone through the same things.  It's like we get

> these mothers who do the minimum possible and worse and yet

> they expect to get these super-daughters who give them

> everything.  It's crazy.

>

> HUGS to all of you.

>

>

>

>

> > >

> > > my nada called one day several years ago and said

> she had figured out the

> > > perfect plan for all of us !!  My hubby and

> I had been wondering where we'd

> > > go when he retires in 2014 or 15....she said we

> should sell our house here,

> > > move in with them ( they live 425 north in

> another state)..sell the horses,

> > > sell our vehicles as we could use theirs, and

> hubby could take care of the

> > > house and yard, and I would take care of the

> inside of the house and them !!

> > > she said they'd even consider putting up a small

> fenced area in the yard (

> > > they have a normal sized town lot, and I had 2

> dogs over 100 pounds!!) for

> > > the dogs !!!  Their house is smaller than my

> house here, theirs is 1100 sq

> > > ft...and four people will live there ??  she

> said we'd have to get rid of

> > > all of our stuff, of course!!  the funny

> thing is they did NOT take care of

> > > their elderly parents or her older siblings at

> all !!  yet she expects that

> > > I will do this ( just me, not any of my siblings

> either !!)

> > >

> > > Jackie

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Oh, boy, I can really relate.  I was having

> a conversation with my mother

> > > once (years ago, when I still had " real "

> conversations with her) - about the

> > > plans my husband and I had made for careers,

> retirement, etc. - and she

> > > asked, " well, how much of this am I entitled to? "

> - It caught me off-guard.

> > > I said, " I'm talking about OUR retirement. 

> You aren't ENTITLED to any part

> > > of it. "   She became very upset and started

> lecturing me about how she had

> > > cared for HER mother, grandmother, and disabled

> sister (she did provide

> > > respite care and financial support when she was

> able, but they lived

> > > independently, too) - I realized that she had

> been raised to think she was

> > > responsible for her entire family, and was

> expecting me to have the same

> > > mindset.  She was bitterly disappointed that

> I did not see myself as her

> > > caretaker.  She's tried to force me into

> that role for years, while I kicked

> > > and struggled, moved across country, and guarded

> my credit rating with my

> > > life.  She's tried to get me to co-sign

> dozens of loans, cellphone

> > > contracts, insurance policies, furniture

> purchases, etc.  She wants me to go

> > > clean her house, take her to every doctor's

> appointment, help her write the

> > > monthly utility bill checks, buy everybody

> Christmas gifts in her name, and

> > > basically be at her beck and call at all

> times.  She just can't accept that

> > > I don't agree to put my life at her

> service.  This makes me a very bad

> > > daughter, in her eyes.

> > >

> > > I have teased my son that I want him to get a

> good education so he can buy

> > > me a condo in Florida - but he knows I'm

> kidding.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Ninera, my jaw is on the floor at that. It's clear that some of these nadas

truly see certain of their chosen children as " investment policies " or property

somehow. Even though I deal with it myself, it is still shocking to me to read

about it happening to others.

We aren't property, slaves, and investment plan...we are human beings!!!!

> > > >

> > > > my nada called one day several years ago and said

> > she had figured out the

> > > > perfect plan for all of us !!  My hubby and

> > I had been wondering where we'd

> > > > go when he retires in 2014 or 15....she said we

> > should sell our house here,

> > > > move in with them ( they live 425 north in

> > another state)..sell the horses,

> > > > sell our vehicles as we could use theirs, and

> > hubby could take care of the

> > > > house and yard, and I would take care of the

> > inside of the house and them !!

> > > > she said they'd even consider putting up a small

> > fenced area in the yard (

> > > > they have a normal sized town lot, and I had 2

> > dogs over 100 pounds!!) for

> > > > the dogs !!!  Their house is smaller than my

> > house here, theirs is 1100 sq

> > > > ft...and four people will live there ??  she

> > said we'd have to get rid of

> > > > all of our stuff, of course!!  the funny

> > thing is they did NOT take care of

> > > > their elderly parents or her older siblings at

> > all !!  yet she expects that

> > > > I will do this ( just me, not any of my siblings

> > either !!)

> > > >

> > > > Jackie

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Oh, boy, I can really relate.  I was having

> > a conversation with my mother

> > > > once (years ago, when I still had " real "

> > conversations with her) - about the

> > > > plans my husband and I had made for careers,

> > retirement, etc. - and she

> > > > asked, " well, how much of this am I entitled to? "

> > - It caught me off-guard.

> > > > I said, " I'm talking about OUR retirement. 

> > You aren't ENTITLED to any part

> > > > of it. "   She became very upset and started

> > lecturing me about how she had

> > > > cared for HER mother, grandmother, and disabled

> > sister (she did provide

> > > > respite care and financial support when she was

> > able, but they lived

> > > > independently, too) - I realized that she had

> > been raised to think she was

> > > > responsible for her entire family, and was

> > expecting me to have the same

> > > > mindset.  She was bitterly disappointed that

> > I did not see myself as her

> > > > caretaker.  She's tried to force me into

> > that role for years, while I kicked

> > > > and struggled, moved across country, and guarded

> > my credit rating with my

> > > > life.  She's tried to get me to co-sign

> > dozens of loans, cellphone

> > > > contracts, insurance policies, furniture

> > purchases, etc.  She wants me to go

> > > > clean her house, take her to every doctor's

> > appointment, help her write the

> > > > monthly utility bill checks, buy everybody

> > Christmas gifts in her name, and

> > > > basically be at her beck and call at all

> > times.  She just can't accept that

> > > > I don't agree to put my life at her

> > service.  This makes me a very bad

> > > > daughter, in her eyes.

> > > >

> > > > I have teased my son that I want him to get a

> > good education so he can buy

> > > > me a condo in Florida - but he knows I'm

> > kidding.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @...

> > SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> > GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> > 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> > “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> > “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> > and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Nada stories have a knack for making people speechless, don't they? Yours,

mine, everyone else's.

She once told me that my brother should be coming over to help her around her

house and doing her yardwork for her " because I'm his mother and that's his

job. " I looked around her $600k house and was like...he has his own house and

yard to take care of and, by the way, you are able bodied and so is your

husband. And if it is too much, hire someone. But no, it was my brother's

fault the gutters were filled with leaves because it didn't occur to him that

she was waiting for him to take care of it instead of taking responsibility

herself!

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: Guilt - what's it all about?

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Thursday, March 4, 2010, 3:33 AM

> Ninera, my jaw is on the floor at

> that.  It's clear that some of these nadas truly see

> certain of their chosen children as " investment policies " or

> property somehow.  Even though I deal with it myself,

> it is still shocking to me to read about it happening to

> others.   

>

> We aren't property, slaves, and investment plan...we are

> human beings!!!!

>

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > my nada called one day several years

> ago and said

> > > she had figured out the

> > > > > perfect plan for all of us !!  My

> hubby and

> > > I had been wondering where we'd

> > > > > go when he retires in 2014 or 15....she

> said we

> > > should sell our house here,

> > > > > move in with them ( they live 425 north

> in

> > > another state)..sell the horses,

> > > > > sell our vehicles as we could use

> theirs, and

> > > hubby could take care of the

> > > > > house and yard, and I would take care

> of the

> > > inside of the house and them !!

> > > > > she said they'd even consider putting

> up a small

> > > fenced area in the yard (

> > > > > they have a normal sized town lot, and

> I had 2

> > > dogs over 100 pounds!!) for

> > > > > the dogs !!!  Their house is smaller

> than my

> > > house here, theirs is 1100 sq

> > > > > ft...and four people will live there

> ??  she

> > > said we'd have to get rid of

> > > > > all of our stuff, of course!!  the

> funny

> > > thing is they did NOT take care of

> > > > > their elderly parents or her older

> siblings at

> > > all !!  yet she expects that

> > > > > I will do this ( just me, not any of my

> siblings

> > > either !!)

> > > > >

> > > > > Jackie

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Oh, boy, I can really relate.  I was

> having

> > > a conversation with my mother

> > > > > once (years ago, when I still had

> " real "

> > > conversations with her) - about the

> > > > > plans my husband and I had made for

> careers,

> > > retirement, etc. - and she

> > > > > asked, " well, how much of this am I

> entitled to? "

> > > - It caught me off-guard.

> > > > > I said, " I'm talking about OUR

> retirement. 

> > > You aren't ENTITLED to any part

> > > > > of it. "   She became very upset and

> started

> > > lecturing me about how she had

> > > > > cared for HER mother, grandmother, and

> disabled

> > > sister (she did provide

> > > > > respite care and financial support when

> she was

> > > able, but they lived

> > > > > independently, too) - I realized that

> she had

> > > been raised to think she was

> > > > > responsible for her entire family, and

> was

> > > expecting me to have the same

> > > > > mindset.  She was bitterly

> disappointed that

> > > I did not see myself as her

> > > > > caretaker.  She's tried to force me

> into

> > > that role for years, while I kicked

> > > > > and struggled, moved across country,

> and guarded

> > > my credit rating with my

> > > > > life.  She's tried to get me to

> co-sign

> > > dozens of loans, cellphone

> > > > > contracts, insurance policies,

> furniture

> > > purchases, etc.  She wants me to go

> > > > > clean her house, take her to every

> doctor's

> > > appointment, help her write the

> > > > > monthly utility bill checks, buy

> everybody

> > > Christmas gifts in her name, and

> > > > > basically be at her beck and call at

> all

> > > times.  She just can't accept that

> > > > > I don't agree to put my life at her

> > > service.  This makes me a very bad

> > > > > daughter, in her eyes.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have teased my son that I want him to

> get a

> > > good education so he can buy

> > > > > me a condo in Florida - but he knows

> I'm

> > > kidding.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for

> help at @...

> > > SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT

> Respond ON THE

> > > GROUP.

> > >

> > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on

> Eggshells, " call

> > > 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We

> also refer to

> > > “Understanding the Borderline

> Mother� (Lawson) and

> > > “Surviving the Borderline Parent,�

> (Roth) which you can

> > > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO

> community!

> > >

> > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online

> Community

> > > and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.Yahoo!

> Groups Links

> > >

> > >

> > >     WTOAdultChildren1-fullfeatured

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.