Re: Kelley

[Guest guest]

Kelley

I think when I first started posting here (this year), I mentioned that I had

told off my daughter and dirtbag on the way home from the hospital. Granted

this was a very bad time to have done it, but after having bitten my tongue

for months, when dirtbag slammed MY car door in MY face after I went to the

hospital to pick them up, I lost it. I told him what a dirtbag he was, a lazy

good for nothing parasite and I told my daughter she would do anything and

compromise herself in any way just to have a Di-- around.

They both shut their mouths and said nothing to me. Let me tell you, I

sputtered insults for about 6 miles. EVERYTHING I HAD BEEN HOLDING IN CAME

OUT.

I think all the years of putting up with her craziness and all her disrespect

and all her lies to me and manipulating me---all of it came out.

When we got to her house, they took the baby and the gifts from the hospital

and practically ran into the house. But, for the next couple of weeks she

kept talking to me, reserved, but talked to me and I was still able to see the

kids. She did mention to me that I was " pure evil " that day. I said yeah,

whatever. I cannot DISCUSS anything with her or hope to have her understand my

feelings or where I was coming from. But I wish I had not done it now. I

didn't think it would cost me my grandsons. But, I really was sick of walking

on

eggshells and to have to put up with dirtbags abuse toward me which started

last year as soon as he was married to my daughter. I just couldn't stop my

mouth once I got rolling. Yes, now I suffer the CONSEQUENCES !

So yes, Kelley, color me evil. And today I am so depressed about not having

access to the boys that I really feel like my heart is breaking in two.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

My son said today that I should just assume I will never see the boys again.

He says being this sad about it is going to kill me physically. I have good

days and bad. I really don't care if I ever see her again. I know I am

supposed to see this as a mental illness and all and I guess have compassion for

her, but with how much I am hurting over these kids, I don't think I will ever

forgive her.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

Hope you are working on that scrap book for the boys? Something to keep you

busy and not dwell on the bad.

Kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

I think when I first started posting here (this year), I mentioned that I had

told off my daughter and dirtbag on the way home from the hospital. Granted

this was a very bad time to have done it, but after having bitten my tongue

for months, when dirtbag slammed MY car door in MY face after I went to the

hospital to pick them up, I lost it. I told him what a dirtbag he was, a lazy

good for nothing parasite and I told my daughter she would do anything and

compromise herself in any way just to have a Di-- around.

They both shut their mouths and said nothing to me. Let me tell you, I

sputtered insults for about 6 miles. EVERYTHING I HAD BEEN HOLDING IN CAME

OUT.

I think all the years of putting up with her craziness and all her disrespect

and all her lies to me and manipulating me---all of it came out.

When we got to her house, they took the baby and the gifts from the hospital

and practically ran into the house. But, for the next couple of weeks she

kept talking to me, reserved, but talked to me and I was still able to see the

kids. She did mention to me that I was " pure evil " that day. I said yeah,

whatever. I cannot DISCUSS anything with her or hope to have her understand

my

feelings or where I was coming from. But I wish I had not done it now. I

didn't think it would cost me my grandsons. But, I really was sick of walking

on

eggshells and to have to put up with dirtbags abuse toward me which started

last year as soon as he was married to my daughter. I just couldn't stop my

mouth once I got rolling. Yes, now I suffer the CONSEQUENCES !

So yes, Kelley, color me evil. And today I am so depressed about not having

access to the boys that I really feel like my heart is breaking in two.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

You 're busy this morning with answering all these posts. Did you have a

good week end and how is everything going with you?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

had a few minutes this morning to catch up! As we have such a short spring (Its

84 degrees here right now! ) I am busting my butt to get the spring yard work

done! We have mostly clay and brush on our lot and it is sloped so bad that the

dirt runs off by the ton everytime it rains so we been busy chopping out a the

slope and putting up a small retaining wall, and slowly scraping up the dirt

enough to plant grass seed! yesterday the nieghbor on one side came over with

his tiller, and the neihbor on the o ther side had to one up him and came with h

is tractor and got the back yard all torn up for us so I am raking out the rocks

and dead plant material and spreading seed and hay as I go alone....lots of

work! I am bound and determined that if I have to mow 2.0 of our 4.5 acres (the

rest is brush) that I will have a lawn to mow

Thanks for asking about me! I am here just slow to answer, catching up late at

night if I can stay awake, and early in the morning as I try to wake up again

Hugs

Kelley

Re: kelley

Kelley

You 're busy this morning with answering all these posts. Did you have a

good week end and how is everything going with you?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

How long do you think my daughter's anger at me will last since I am sure

this is the reason she is not letting me see the boys? I know no one can

predict

for sure, but do borderlines hold grudges forever? Do you think she is doing

this as a punishment, because I certainly do. Is there any way to take the

wind out of sails?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

there is no way to predict her length of anger, if the two of you had continued

to work together she would hate you one day and then act normal the next!

there is no way to take the wind out of her sails, other than to not enable her

to behave badly towards you. If you just toatlly ignore her is when you most

likely will get a reaction out of her that is favorable. If you dont call for

any reason, never stop by, dont engage in conversation about her with others,

she might start to wonder why, she might not. Could be days, could be years,

that is why it is so important for you to get your own life healthy and right

for you, so you can go on without wondering so much about your daughters actions

and reactions.

Hugs

kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

How long do you think my daughter's anger at me will last since I am sure

this is the reason she is not letting me see the boys? I know no one can

predict

for sure, but do borderlines hold grudges forever? Do you think she is doing

this as a punishment, because I certainly do. Is there any way to take the

wind out of sails?

Jean

[Guest guest]

I think you're going to have to try and find a way to quit obsessing

about why your dtr does things.

The " average " person does not understanding why a bp acts the way

they do, becasue the bps thinking is so foreign to them.

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter WHY she does something as far

as you're concerned. See, it sounds like you're still convinced

that if you just understood why she does things, then you can fix

it, but you can't.

You need to somehow grab ahold of that realization, and accept that

things are the way they are, and move on from there.

> Kelley

>

> How long do you think my daughter's anger at me will last since I

am sure

> this is the reason she is not letting me see the boys? I know no

one can predict

> for sure, but do borderlines hold grudges forever? Do you think

she is doing

> this as a punishment, because I certainly do. Is there any way to

take the

> wind out of sails?

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kelley

From the rest of my post, do you think I contributed to my daughter's problem

by not making her take responsibility jor her problems as a child? What do

you think of the psychologists assessment? Did she just con him?

And , " Good Morning " . You're also an early riser!!!!!

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

What things was she supposed to have learned as a baby?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

I did fine in the 1st stage. I wasn't one to pick her up as soon as she

cried. My pediatrician had said to let her cry or she'd have me jumping thru

hoops. I think the problem was in that 12-20 period when I was very

overprotective. When my mother died when had just turned 13, I just

wanted to hang

on to both kids because they were all I had left and I became very

overprotective.

I am concerned about me in that " stagnation " period. I will get those

workbooks.

Thanks

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

Your still missing the point! It isnt how well YOU did as a mother! It is what

she did not develop! Your mother dying may have been a catalyst, the bad thing

that made things worse for , but she did not learn properly how to

combine her good and bad compartments as a baby. If the child doesnt develop

past the earlier parts they cannot possible make it throught the later stages!

That is why i recomend you get those two books and the workbook and read them

both probably more than once and use the workbook for SWOE so you can learn

where your responsibilities are and learn the difference between a responsibilty

and blame you were responsible for being over protective when she was 13,

and that was enabling her behaviors to escalate to where she is now, however you

are not to blame that she has something wrong in her brain that did not allow

her to develop emotionally properly!

Although not BPD myself, I found a lot of good in The Angry Heart. I think

some of my behaviors that enable the mentally unwell in my life are addictive or

learned patterns of behavior.

In The Angry heart the introductions states that all parents were once

children.Thier own parenting style was shpaed by how they were raised. If you

are a parent and are reading this book read it first as a child, and then as a

parent. I think you will find this book helpful all the way around Jean. I

did!

Hugs

Kelley

Hgus

kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

I did fine in the 1st stage. I wasn't one to pick her up as soon as she

cried. My pediatrician had said to let her cry or she'd have me jumping thru

hoops. I think the problem was in that 12-20 period when I was very

overprotective. When my mother died when had just turned 13, I just

wanted to hang

on to both kids because they were all I had left and I became very

overprotective.

I am concerned about me in that " stagnation " period. I will get those

workbooks.

Thanks

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley,

Tell me how a parent is some what responsible for their child having BPD....I am

just curious, I can understand the part I played in my daughter having it, she

sees me as having abandoned her...but I am curious cause of how things were

between my mom and I....it was her that involved most of my feelings....

Kelley wrote:

Jean

There is a book for BPD's that explains in detail how a child progresses from

birth, and where things go wrong. It is actually a workbook for overcoming BPD

and other addictive disorders called The Angry Heart, you might find it

extremely insightful for your questions about your daughter and the workbook

extremely helpful for yourself as well! Also the Stop Walking on Eggshells

workbook is great!

There are 8 stages affecting the grwoing child and future adult.

1. Basic Trust versus Basic Mistrust (zero to 1.5 yrs)

2. Autonomy vx. shame and doubt ( 1-3 yrs)

3. Initiative vs. Guilt (3-6)

4. Industry vs Inferiority (6-12)

5. Identity vx Role Diffusion (12-20)

6. Intimacy vs Isolation (young adult)

7. Generativity vs stagnation (middle age dult)

8. integrity vs despair (sr adult)

The degrees of success we have in passing through each of Dr. son's stages

dertermines our level of adult maturity.

Get The Angry Heart and you will find more about this.

Also when a baby is born they dont have it all together and they

compartmentalize good and bad until they are able to see both. You are the bad

parent when you dont come when they cry, at which point they learn to self

soothe, and the good parent when you pick them up when they cry or are hungry.

a child that does not learn to self soothe, doesnt get to the point where mom

can be good even though she did not come when baby cried. The child that doesnt

learn this keeps good in pne file in the brain and bad in another.

Do get The Angry Heart and Stop Walking on Eggshells, and the SWOE workbook, you

will find a world of understanding in the two of them.

The angry heart helps you understand where you are responsible for some things

but not to blame!

Hugs

Kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

What things was she supposed to have learned as a baby?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

Yes, actually she took me to lunch with the boys and bought me cards and

presents from her and them. But that was in December when I was still

babysitting

and paying bills for her. So, who knows her motives. It all seemed very

genuine, but who knows.

Jean

[Guest guest]

That is not exactly what I meant, it is learning to take responsibility for

things you were in control of but not take the blame for mental illness. But on

another note, all people suffering BPD did not have it just by genetics alone.

Some were abused as children and then yes there is blame for thier parents.

Say with who knows she was over protective during a certain time of her

daughtes life. She admits that and even admits that she might be partialy

responsible for part of her daughters behavoir, but should not blame herself

because of it.

You might try reading two of those books as well, espeically The Angry Heart, as

you most definitely can see from both your childhood, your daughters childhood,

and as a parent. It might give you some insight

A quote from the book:

A Word of Undestanding for Parents

Talking to a parent about thier BPD childrne requires at times, the wisdom of

. Some parents are themselves responsible for assisting in the creation

of the psychotraumatic envrionmental conditions that shape borderline behaior.

(Factor 1 BPD) Sometimes it was thier spouse, other family members, or

outsiders who perpetrated the psychotrauma. But unfortunately the parent was

helpless to stop or prevent ita and may have even been a co-victim of the

traumas.

It goes on father, but is a great book. I got it for my BPH but think I got a

lot out of it myself! Again the stress is on understanding responsibilty but

not blaming.

Hope that helped

Hugs

Kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

What things was she supposed to have learned as a baby?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

So, she won't get better and I should just write her off. Is that the jist

of it?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

How old is your husband now?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

Does your husband admit he has a problem or are you still doing all the work?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

She is not going to get better until she realizes she has a problem. Maybe that

would be when everyone has deserted her and she has no one left. Or when she

has done something and gets arrested for it. Or until she wants normal so bad

that she is willing to listen to someone else tell her she is causing the

problems. Until she stops lying to herself about what is going on and

manipulating others and creating dama to live on no she wont get well. She may

calm down a bit as she gets older, I have heard that and read that but I also

have seen enough people on my c ouples list that I dont beleive that. I also

see enough change in my husband to want to beleive it. Maybe he just got so

tired of fighting everything all the time that he tries harder not to now.

Kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

So, she won't get better and I should just write her off. Is that the jist

of it?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

He will be 40 end of next month

Kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

How old is your husband now?

Jean

[Guest guest]

And he has BPD? has he ever went to therapy for it?

Kelley wrote:

Jean

He will be 40 end of next month

Kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

How old is your husband now?

Jean

[Guest guest]

yes he has BPD, was diagnosed with it many many years before I met him while he

was in prison. He did nothing about it. He did not even admit it until this

last year. He goes to therapy occasionally, you know BP's really resist having

something wrong with them, it takes a lot of time and work. He is working on it

though. He has really good days and really bad days where I just couldnt care

less if he left or stayed. he has meds he can take but wont until he feels so

bad he cant stand it anymore, and cant find any reason to fight with me or blame

me for anything...then he starts over on the meds.

It is not an easy life, and the stories he tells about the things people do to

him that make him make irrational decisions about who he works for or with

drives me insane! He has gone through his whole life destroying anything that

could have been good. He still does, all though not to the dergree he did in

the past, which he claims was worse before he met me.

Yes he claims 7 out of the 9 diagnostic criteria on the DSM-IV, earlier in his

life he was told he was antisocial, as a child he was just a bad kid. Half the

stuff that comes out of his mouth is not true at least half the time. But hey

he certainly was not that way when I met him. He was prince charming!

Hgus

Kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

How old is your husband now?

Jean

[Guest guest]

yes he admits he has problems on some days, other days I am all the

problems in the entire world He will admit to 7 of the 9 diagnostic criteria

on the DSM IV for BPD....I say he has or had 8, all but the suicidal part....he

destroys his life in other ways though. The only work I am doing is on me! He

hates that too. Change is difficult for someone with BPD. It works better when

he takes the natural meds he and I and the therpist came up with since he

refused a psychiatrist and prescriptions due to drugs they gave him as a teen

that pretty much made him stare into space and drool!

Hgus

Kelley

Hugs

Kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

Does your husband admit he has a problem or are you still doing all the work?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Ah the masque of BPD...anybody when first meeting my daughter would swear she is

an angel...same with me, but once you start getting too close...watch out time

for masque change....my daughter was perfect for the first month I had

her....then her evil twin showed up!

Kelley wrote:

yes he has BPD, was diagnosed with it many many years before I met him while he

was in prison. He did nothing about it. He did not even admit it until this

last year. He goes to therapy occasionally, you know BP's really resist having

something wrong with them, it takes a lot of time and work. He is working on it

though. He has really good days and really bad days where I just couldnt care

less if he left or stayed. he has meds he can take but wont until he feels so

bad he cant stand it anymore, and cant find any reason to fight with me or blame

me for anything...then he starts over on the meds.

It is not an easy life, and the stories he tells about the things people do to

him that make him make irrational decisions about who he works for or with

drives me insane! He has gone through his whole life destroying anything that

could have been good. He still does, all though not to the dergree he did in

the past, which he claims was worse before he met me.

Yes he claims 7 out of the 9 diagnostic criteria on the DSM-IV, earlier in his

life he was told he was antisocial, as a child he was just a bad kid. Half the

stuff that comes out of his mouth is not true at least half the time. But hey

he certainly was not that way when I met him. He was prince charming!

Hgus

Kelley

Re: Kelley

Kelley

How old is your husband now?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

My grandmother was never judgemental with me, and she was the best part of my

childhood. She was a strong woman and disciplined me bigtime, but she was

never judgemental. I knew she loved me and I adored her and respected her till

the day she died at 84. Actually my mother was never judgemental either, she

never disciplined me at all. I always felt like I was her mother.

Jean