Re: Digest Number 1051

[Guest guest]

I watched 48 Hours last night. Their story was on the 12 yr old boy who shot

to death his grandparents with whom he lived 3 years ago. He is 15 now. He

was on an antidepressant and the defense blamed the drug. It happened in S

Carolina. Are you familiar with this case? And what do you think about it?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

That is a catch 22 situation lol You might call and ask, but you might also

make sure she arrives before the lookers and put down some simple rules of

business.

If she were to accept can you act as if nothing is wrong?

Hugs

kelley

Re: Digest Number 1051

Now what are you going to do in this situation with your daughter being down

right RUDE? Will you ask her why she didn't call to let you know she wasn't

going to make it to dinner? It would seem she would know the proper etiquette

so she just didn't care about all the work you did?????? They all really seem

like spoiled brats.

Did you call her apt to see if she had " forgotten " ? After she told you her

dirtbag had gotten a job, she probably didn't want the two of you in the same

room, since dinner time small talk may have gotten to the , " so, how do you

like your knew job? " And then the lie would be exposed.

On a different note. I woke up this morning thinking about the " Open House "

I am doing on one of my listings today. used to come with me to

these. It's easier to " control " the crowd, making sure nothing in the home

gets

stolen and just answering peoples' questions when more than one realtor is

conducting them. I thought to myself, maybe the next time, I should give her

a

call like nothing happened and ask her if she would like to assist me with the

next open house?

What do you think? It might open the door to my seeing the kids sooner. Or

would that be interfering with her falling on her face sooner?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Carolyn

I just got back from conducting my " Open House " . I did it myself and it went

fine. The real

estate market here has taken a bad turn this year, so no bited on this

property.

Why do I want to make contact? Because then perhaps, I could see the kids.

When I finished with the Open House I drove over to the playground that I

always took them to on the week end. There is also a walking track that goes

around it, so if I saw them there, I could always say I was going walking. I

miss

my grandsons terribly. I was more of a mother to these kids than she was. I

was COMPLETELY involved in all aspects of their lives, so it is like a

divorce and I'm the parent who has lost the kids.

Jean

[Guest guest]

If I may insert my two cent's worth, I am observing (and I can

understand) that you seem to be irrestibly drawn to make contact with

your daughter. Whether over mail, children's clothing or an open

house, you want to approach and speak with her. I am glad you are

using this group as a sounding board. What is it you really want to

accomplish by making this contact? Is this a control struggle with

her? Think about what the outcome is likely to be. Is it in her best

interest, and more importantly, is it in your best interest? You may

find that jumping back into the fray only intensifies the stress for

you. When we react emotionally things often do not turn out as we

intend. Whatever decision you make, I would urge you to think it over

for a while, look at your motives and make a calm decision. Good luck.

Carolyn

> Kelley

>

> Yes I can act as if nothing is wrong, however by doing this am I

interfering

> with her bottoming out?

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

What will I do re: her not coming to dinner or calling? Easy. Let

her know it was rude and irresponsible. No, I'm not going to ask

her why she didn't call. I mean, who cares? The fact is she

didn't, and she needs to know that is an unacceptable way to treat

me.

She doesn't have a phone, so I could not call her.

I really don't think she thinks about how her actions affect me. A

bps thoughts are all of themselves, and I doubt she even gave a

thought to how much work I did, or extra money I spent.

I also don't think your idea about the boyfriend getting or not

getting a job had anything much to do with it. From what little

I've seen of him, he would go right along with her lie. He is

intimidated by my husband and me, and I don't think he wants to be

around us because he knows we don't respect him.

Whatever the problem was, I'm not spending excessive time worrying

about it. But, when I see her again, I will let her know what I

think about it, and I will also not invite her to dinner again any

time soon. Then, I move on.

I cannot change her by worrying, so why bother?

With regards to your thoughts of involving in the next open

house, I think you're setting yourself up. She has let you know in

no uncertain terms she doesn't want you in her life right now. It's

up to her to make the next move. If you make it, and she rebuffs

you, then you'll just spend more time feeling bad.

If she wants to dictate how she contacts you and her involvement,

why not let her? And, go on with your life. There is life apart

from , and you should feel free to find it! Do something

good for yourself!

[Guest guest]

No, I'm not familiar with the case. Without having followed the

case, anything I say is mere conjecture.

But, since I'm conjecturing, let me say that I do believe that it is

possible for a drug to cause those sorts of actions. Whether it did

with this child or not is, of course, impossible for me to say.

However, make no mistake about it--psychotropic medication is

designed with the sole purpose of influencing the seratonin and

dopamine inhibitors and reuptake inhibitors (depending on the drug),

and changing the way a person thinks and acts!!!

I think that sometimes, because psychotropic medication (especially

for depression) is so common nowadays, that people forget that they

can cause serious side-effects in the way a person acts and thinks!!!

Is this person's defense valid? Who can say. I have heard of this

happening in other circumstances, however, and think it would be

very sad if that were to be the case with this boy that he has to

live with the knowledge that most people will not believe his

defense.

I have seen what I consider to be an alarming trend in courts today--

people who genuinely suffer from mental illness, and have negative

actions based on that mental illness, are grouped with the rest of

the " criminal element " when they really need medication and therapy.

Perhaps it is due to the fact that juries are simply intolerant

these days. But, I watched the Yaeger case with much

interest. If ever it was apparent that a person suffered from

severe post partum depression and wasn't in control of their

thoughts and actions, to ME that was a prime example.

Sure, the consequences of her actions were devastating, and those

poor children of hers will never walk this earth again. But, does

she deserve to be locked up for the rest of her life for something

over which she had no control? for something that, from what I

remember, she tried but failed to find help for???

These are very serious questions which face our society today, and

I'm afraid the growing trend is to dump the mentally ill in jails

with the criminals simply because they have criminal actions. And,

as strongly as I feel about this, I am sure there are others who

feel just as strongly the opposite way.

>

>

> I watched 48 Hours last night. Their story was on the 12 yr old

boy who shot

> to death his grandparents with whom he lived 3 years ago. He is

15 now. He

> was on an antidepressant and the defense blamed the drug. It

happened in S

> Carolina. Are you familiar with this case? And what do you think

about it?

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kelley

I met with the prosecutor today. I guess we'll just see what happens. THey

said the defense attorney will probably say I am vindictive in that I just

don't want to be happy. I told her (the prosecutor) that my response

would be I just want her and my grandchildren to be safe and I don't feel that's

the case living with a someone who's been a convict for the past 7 years. She

said the judge is quirky, so we'll see what happens.

I am not sure that anything will change as far as my relationship with my

grandsons no matter what happens tomorrow. If dirtbag gets more time, she'll

hate me and if he doesn't she'll hate and he will be home reinforcing her

control

freak behavior.

As I see it I'm damned either way.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

I dont think she is actually going to answer the phone and talk to you, so this

probably is going no where. Its a hand out to help her by even offering. Maybe

by being around people like you and others in the business and showing houses

will give her a new life to latch onto, but like you said it is just a matter of

time before dirtbag returns. I really dont know Jean.

I think she may well refuse to even participate, and I would be quite worried

that instead of being a help, she would be constantly sniping at you making the

whole darn day a disaster! Why don't you invite another realtor to help you

out? Let your daughter deal with this on her own. She should be the one

reaching out to you by now if she was going to continue in the real estate

business.

Hugs

Kelley

Re: Digest Number 1051

Kelley

Yes I can act as if nothing is wrong, however by doing this am I interfering

with her bottoming out?

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

Thanks for your words of encouragement about how I'm damned only until she

gets tired of " playing with dirtbag " . But at that point, even if she would like

me to be the good guy again, it cannot happen this time. I'll be the good

guy when she runs out of money and wants to hit me up for it aand we know that's

not happening this time. So then what will I be again????

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

You are damned only until she gets tired of playing with dirtbag and sooner or

later it will happen. Druggies dont often care that their woman is out working,

or how they get money as long as they have drugs, but often times while the

woman is out earning drug money and scoring drugs, the man is at home with

another woman. It will not be long before will start imagining that he

is cheating on her even if he isnt. The tables will turn for one of them. It

is BPD behavior, and just does not just disapear with time.....

Hgus

kelley

Re: Digest Number 1051

Kelley

I met with the prosecutor today. I guess we'll just see what happens. THey

said the defense attorney will probably say I am vindictive in that I just

don't want to be happy. I told her (the prosecutor) that my response

would be I just want her and my grandchildren to be safe and I don't feel

that's

the case living with a someone who's been a convict for the past 7 years. She

said the judge is quirky, so we'll see what happens.

I am not sure that anything will change as far as my relationship with my

grandsons no matter what happens tomorrow. If dirtbag gets more time, she'll

hate me and if he doesn't she'll hate and he will be home reinforcing her

control

freak behavior.

As I see it I'm damned either way.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

Then you hopefully have read everything you can on BPD and how to deal with it,

have been seeing a therapist for yourself and are learning healthy behaviors for

YOU using CBT, so that when she pops back on in your life, you know how to deal

with things without accusing or blaming her in any way and you have boundaries

in place for your life that you wont let her get away with crossing! Then you

develop a more healthy relationship with your daughter, that neither enables her

or you !

Hugs

Kelley

Re: Digest Number 1051

Kelley

Thanks for your words of encouragement about how I'm damned only until she

gets tired of " playing with dirtbag " . But at that point, even if she would

like

me to be the good guy again, it cannot happen this time. I'll be the good

guy when she runs out of money and wants to hit me up for it aand we know

that's

not happening this time. So then what will I be again????

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley and All

I just got back from court today for the NO Contact Order business. It was

interesting. My daughter sat across from me in the hallway area between the

courts. We were about 15 ft acrosss from each other. Her mother in law held

the baby the whole time (we were there from 9:00am till 3:00pm when the judge

heard my testimony. I was the only witness in the courtroom while I testified.

My daughter and her mother in law had to remain outside in the hallway. The

prosecutor got wind that my daughter and the mother in law were going to say

that my daughter lived at the mother in law's house and dirtbag lived at my

daughter's house. To make a long story short, the judge said he found me to be

the more credible witness and that he wanted DCYF to investigate my daughter

since she said she left the boys with the dirtbag while she lived at his

mother's house. The judge said said he finds her parenting skills wanting.

Dirtbag got another 6 months to serve and clears the way for the probation

violations tomorrow. I prayed last night that justice would be served.

Jean

[Guest guest]

I might also add that sitting across from her wathing her with that baby (she

seemed very loving toward her which is a good thing), I realized she NEVER

acted lovingly toward the boys. They ere always a big inconvenience toi her.

And she was smug today, just chattering away to his mother like she couldn't

lose. I just hope she doesn't do anything to the boys. I hope she doesn't take

out her nager toward me on them.

One of the officers who was in court to testify said he got a call from a

neighbor yesterday saying she was screaming all day at the boys, but by the time

he got there all was quiet.

Quite honestly, looking at her today, I felt nothing for her. I felt nothing

for the baby. I wish I could get custody of the boys. I honestly don't

think she wants them anyway.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

Yes, I have an appt with another attorney who deals in family law. We shall

see. I am going to call DCYF myself as well. This week is their (the boys)

Spring break from school. There are so many things I could be doing with them

and it would get them out of her hair so to speak as well and she could rest.

But either dirtbag is telling her not to interact with me or she is just being

spiteful.

As least she knows now I am not putting up with any more of her sh--!!!!

You all would have been proud of me on the stand. When dirtbag's lawyer

tried to discredit my testimony on the stand I went back at him like a shewolf.

The prosecutor thanked me.Said she couldn't have done it without me.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

I lost you here. How is my hatred of her behavior spoiling my life? I just

want the boys.

Jean

[Guest guest]

I honestly don't hate her behavior. I wouldn't like how she treats my

grandsons even if I was not related to her. They deserve a better life than

what

she is giving them. They deserve the lije they had befor dirtbag came into the

picture. And I am going to get visitation with those kids because it is

something very important to me.

They need someone in their lives who is sane before they have no self esteem

left. And if there were any possibility of my getting custody away from her I

would do it in a minute. Her life is HER problem, my grandsons' lives is my

concern.

As you said your mother told you, , she made her bed, now she can lie in

it.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean!

Way to go! I am sure that you are relieved now!

Hugs

Kelley

Re: Digest Number 1051

Kelley and All

I just got back from court today for the NO Contact Order business. It was

interesting. My daughter sat across from me in the hallway area between the

courts. We were about 15 ft acrosss from each other. Her mother in law held

the baby the whole time (we were there from 9:00am till 3:00pm when the judge

heard my testimony. I was the only witness in the courtroom while I

testified.

My daughter and her mother in law had to remain outside in the hallway. The

prosecutor got wind that my daughter and the mother in law were going to say

that my daughter lived at the mother in law's house and dirtbag lived at my

daughter's house. To make a long story short, the judge said he found me to

be

the more credible witness and that he wanted DCYF to investigate my daughter

since she said she left the boys with the dirtbag while she lived at his

mother's house. The judge said said he finds her parenting skills wanting.

Dirtbag got another 6 months to serve and clears the way for the probation

violations tomorrow. I prayed last night that justice would be served.

Jean

[Guest guest]

jean

see, she continues to act out on the boys and other people are aware and calling

and complaining about it, obviously they felt no friendship or compunction to

ask if she was ok or needed help but called the police instead!

Again a very good thing happening! you should see about filing for custody of

them or for visitation now....

Hgus

kelley

Re: Digest Number 1051

I might also add that sitting across from her wathing her with that baby (she

seemed very loving toward her which is a good thing), I realized she NEVER

acted lovingly toward the boys. They ere always a big inconvenience toi her.

And she was smug today, just chattering away to his mother like she couldn't

lose. I just hope she doesn't do anything to the boys. I hope she doesn't

take

out her nager toward me on them.

One of the officers who was in court to testify said he got a call from a

neighbor yesterday saying she was screaming all day at the boys, but by the

time

he got there all was quiet.

Quite honestly, looking at her today, I felt nothing for her. I felt nothing

for the baby. I wish I could get custody of the boys. I honestly don't

think she wants them anyway.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

just hang on! dont let your hatred of her behavior spoil your life. She had

every opportunity today to speak to you and she did not. I am sure that hurts

but she isnt right so its not about you, it is about her need for drama

Hugs

kelley

Re: Digest Number 1051

Kelley

Yes, I have an appt with another attorney who deals in family law. We shall

see. I am going to call DCYF myself as well. This week is their (the boys)

Spring break from school. There are so many things I could be doing with them

and it would get them out of her hair so to speak as well and she could rest.

But either dirtbag is telling her not to interact with me or she is just being

spiteful.

As least she knows now I am not putting up with any more of her sh--!!!!

You all would have been proud of me on the stand. When dirtbag's lawyer

tried to discredit my testimony on the stand I went back at him like a

shewolf.

The prosecutor thanked me.Said she couldn't have done it without me.

Jean

[Guest guest]

I just said dont let it!

Hugs

kelley

Re: Digest Number 1051

Kelley

I lost you here. How is my hatred of her behavior spoiling my life? I just

want the boys.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

I reread your post from yesterday. I was too exhausted last night to make

myself clear about my feelings ye

[Guest guest]

Kelley

Sorry I hit the " send mail " key by accident. It didn't surprise me that

she didn't talk to me yesterday. I went there hoping she didn't scream at me or

try to attack me physically, so not talking to me was a big plus. I noticed

how comfortable she was in the court environment. She used to always go with

the boys' father. He was always in and out of trouble for petty theft, joy

riding ( " borrowing " ) cars and getting arrested for car theft etc. She never paid

for his lawyers though.

Dirtbag is going to be going to superior court today for his parole

violations. I pray that he gets some serious time. He has 20 years probation

hanging

over his head. Getting a guilty on him yesterday is just what his lawyer did

not want to happen. It sets the stage for today.

The older prosecutor yesterday said it seemed interesting that my daughter

treats me exactly like all her boyfriends/husband treat her. Interesting

observation. But, started treating me like cra- when she was dating

nice

boys in college. One of them stopped going out with her because he heard her

yelling and swearing at me one day and asked my son what 's problem was.

My feelings for her since yesterday feel so weird. I guess child or not

after too many years of being emotionally abused you just don't feel anything

anymore.

My only mission is getting the boys.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

I just got off the phone with the prosecutor. Since everyone who was

testifying was sequestered from each other, none of us heard the other one's

testimony, She wanted me to know that 's testimony was not malicious

toward me

in the least. She said she had no fight in her and seemed just plain

exhausted. However she also said the judge questioned her rather than either of

the

attorneys and he told her point blank her testimony made no sense. And dirtbag's

mother couldn't get her story straight at all.

Stacey, who is the prosecutor for my town, said that before she got to court

with this, she had heard from a # of the town's police officers who said that

when saw she would never believe that someone who looked like my

daughter could be so enmeshed with this dirtbag. They all feel it is an

anomaly and don't understand it-----why she would want to throw her life away on

someone like him. who being a lawyer works with reason more so than

emotion said, " Ya know, I think your daughter needs to hit bottom and learn what

who priorites should be. " She said that 's 1st priority, if she wants

to rescue someone should be to take care of her children.

Yes, I should know something either today or tomorrow on the other court

case.

Must go to work now.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Jean

I am glad to see you opening up and letting go of your daughter, I am however

still worried that your only mission is to get the boys. Your real mission

should be to heal yourself and build a life that doesnt include all this worry

of your daughter. I am worried for you that you are going to let this take you

over as well and exhaust you. you must have something else to live for other

then getting the boys. You must love and like yourself and your life, or when

you get the boys you will not be worth much to them either. Do continue seeking

a therapist, sometimes it takes a couple of days for them to get back to you,

but keep calling new ones.

Will you be notified about what happens to dirtbag in superior court today?

Hugs

Kelley

Re: Digest Number 1051

Kelley

Sorry I hit the " send mail " key by accident. It didn't surprise me that

she didn't talk to me yesterday. I went there hoping she didn't scream at me

or

try to attack me physically, so not talking to me was a big plus. I noticed

how comfortable she was in the court environment. She used to always go with

the boys' father. He was always in and out of trouble for petty theft, joy

riding ( " borrowing " ) cars and getting arrested for car theft etc. She never

paid

for his lawyers though.

Dirtbag is going to be going to superior court today for his parole

violations. I pray that he gets some serious time. He has 20 years probation

hanging

over his head. Getting a guilty on him yesterday is just what his lawyer did

not want to happen. It sets the stage for today.

The older prosecutor yesterday said it seemed interesting that my daughter

treats me exactly like all her boyfriends/husband treat her. Interesting

observation. But, started treating me like cra- when she was dating

nice

boys in college. One of them stopped going out with her because he heard her

yelling and swearing at me one day and asked my son what 's problem

was.

My feelings for her since yesterday feel so weird. I guess child or not

after too many years of being emotionally abused you just don't feel anything

anymore.

My only mission is getting the boys.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Kelley

I am seeing a counselor on Monday. She has some sort of degree, but more

importantly she is a spiritual counselor and I really think God is the only one

who can help right now.

Jean