Re: grief

[Guest guest]

,do you mean that what you wanted to be the sacredness of that moment

when your sister passed away got messed up and now your grief is sort of stuck?

It's so hard to give a BPD what they " need " without both feeling like it's

a choice between you or them and to feel like you've come up short no matter

what you do.And at a moment as intense and emotional as a sister dying,you just

shouldn't even have to find yourself between that BPD rock and a hard place.

You wanted that moment to be peaceful,which is how it should have

been.You had just tried to clean up the fluid out of concern for your mother and

your niece--but your need for peacefulness was rightfully still there and you

had just watched your sister die.I was the only one there and I watched when my

father took his last breath and it's a moment and an experience feeling that's

almost impossible to put into words--and it's like it NEEDS to be

peaceful.Although you are focused on the one who is dying it's a traumatic

moment for the one who is living,at this really profound level that you almost

can't even access in the moment--the need for peacefulness is,I think,just as

profound.

After my father died I went out into the hallway to tell my brother and

sister in law that he was gone.Nada had stayed away.I said " He's gone " feeling

that profound sense I can't really describe.Because I had been there with him

when it happened.

Immediately,my sister in law started to carry on sobbing.An aide who was

walking by and had tended to fada heard me and started to cry and ran down the

hall to the nurses' station crying.My brother,who like me had been trained to

disown his own feelings,had little reaction except to go into automatic: he took

out his phone to call the funeral director.

And I was annoyed with my sister in law and the aide,even though I

understood their anguish.It was like they were spoiling what should have been

the solemn sacredness of the moment,like their bursting into tears so quickly

wasn't yet appropriate.

I think I understand your shushing of your nada--and that you did it

so gently says to me that you were indeed thinking of her,too just then.You

didn't tell her to stop it,but unfortunately since she has BPD,she interpreted

it that way.Is that what you mean,that the BPD was also imposing itself on the

moment,disrupting what should have been an exchange of compassion between

yourself and your mother? But how is that your fault in any way? It just

is--it's very very painful--but it just is.I don't think that in that moment you

were in a place to adjust automatically to your mother's sobbing and to comfort

her.Beyond the fact of the BPD,there is also the fact that the two of you were

in a different space: her coming into the room after the fact and you having

been there when your sister passed away.That's two very different

mental/spiritual spaces no matter what the relationship of the two people is.

After I went out into the hall and made the solemn announcement of

fada's passing it seemed like all kinds of people were going into his room: the

nurses,my sister in law and brother,the aides.There was all this carrying on and

I was still in that profound space.People were crying and I might have seemed

cold to them because I was still in that solemnity and was searching for the pen

I swore I'd left at his bedside--I had forgotten to write down the precise

moment of his last breath which I had intended to do but then forgot when it

happened.An aide reached out to hug me and I barely even noticed her,all I

wanted to do was find the pen and reverently record the time of death.Hugging

and crying did not seem properly reverential to me at that exact moment,it was

deeper than that.

And yet you were focused enough on her to make sure your nada didn't

fall--,you DID show her compassion.Not in the ideal way it might have

been but you did reach out to her from the very different space you were in and

you helped her.I don't think that your shushing caused her to collapse: BPDs

being as unpredictable as they are,the same thing or similar could have happened

if you had made a move to pull her into your arms--and again,you simply were not

in a space to do that at that exact moment.You were where you were and you had a

right to be there.You don't even have anything,really,to forgive yourself

for.The whole thing is just incredibly unfortunate and tragic on so many

levels,you have a complicated grief.Our grief when FOO is involved gets

complicated like this and makes it harder to process.

My brother and I weren't acting as a team when fada was dying,which

inhibited the natural flow of the process for me and compounded my

trauma/grief.Of course I tried to be the big sister with him because that was a

role that gave me some sense of goodness.And of course in that situation I

couldn't get it right.He had his issues and his own way of reacting to the whole

thing that was much more primitive and basic than mine.For example,I worked with

the nurses for two days to get fada's meds at the proper dosages to reduce his

suffering.I was exhausted from lack of sleep the day before he died and my

brother finally showed up at the hospice after I had called to tell him the end

was near.He brought a priest with him to annoint fada with holy water.It had

taken me and the nurses all that day to get his meds just right and he was

resting comfortably for the first time in days.It was very important that he be

given his meds on the schedule we had worked out because even a delay of an hour

meant it took them longer to kick in and he suffered.After the ritual with the

priest,I told my brother what time fada would need his meds next and that he had

to let the nurse on duty know because the shift was changing and it was a

weekend nurse who hadn't been on board with the new meds schedule.I had him

repeat this info back to me to make sure he understood and then I went home to

take a nap.

My brother called me when he was going to leave the hospice so I could

return and I asked him if fada had been given his meds at the appointed time.He

said, " Uh huh. "

When I got there fada was in agony again.I had the nurse show me his

chart and he hadn't been given his meds.My brother had allowed our father to

suffer for the sake of his own ego,simply because he didn't want to listen to me

or to believe that I could possibly have fada's best interests at heart.That

increased the horror I already felt about everything.And it made it harder to

just grieve.

I'm sharing this not to vent about me or to make a direct comparison

to what happened with you when your sister died,but because I think it's

illustrative of how the FOO can make you feel guilty or how your grief can get

stuck because it all gets so damned complicated.You want so much to do the right

thing and then for whatever particular reasons,it just doesn't turn out that

way.

And I have to wonder when I read your post,who was lightening *your*

grief? Who was helping *you*? Your boyfriend? Then that is how it should have

been--you also needed comfort and care.It was a difficult and terrible and sad

situation--you could not have been expected to be the perfect saint.You had

needs too.You have every right to honor that grief along with your own needs.You

also had a right to be tended to/to tend to what you needed in the moment.

I'm sorry you're hurting tonight...

>

> Hi,

> I am having a hard time with grieving; for some reason I cannot seem to find a

group around here even though it's a populated area. But what can I do but move

along and cry when it comes and try to keep from getting into that place of not

doing anything at all. It's weird, at a time when I feel I am ready to open

doors of new opportunity, I am paralyzed by these feelings.

> I was thinking of the moment when my sister died. I mentioned this before. I

watched her take her last breath; very peaceful, but immediately she had fluid

come from her mouth and so I lost the moment and tried to clean her so my mom

and my niece would not be upset. My mom came up behind me not knowing had

passed and when I told her she was gone, my mom started, I don't know, sobbing,

making noise, and I guess I wanted peacefulness. So I said: shhhh. Not mean.

And my mom got one of those 'tones' " don't shush me! " . In some ways, my sister

would say to me: that figures. And my mom collapsed in the chair; I had to make

sure she didn't fall (her feet and legs are bad).

>

> Anyway, my point is not all that, but that this mental condition of hers,

conditioned me this way and it has robbed so much from not just me but her. We

couldn't have a heartfelt moment, or me giving compassion (my sister probably

would have). And I find myself this evening missing that opportunity yet

knowing how excruciating it is to let her (mom) in and give her what she needs

Even a death of her daughter, my sister prevented me. (please send me one

more plate of guilt on my order!)

> ~patricia

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't worry about your nada, ! You just need to take care of

yourself...I've had 2 brothers die, and both times nada said I should have

been more comforting and supportive of her...I asked who was supportive of

me ? I lost 2 brothers... and she just looked at me like I was speaking a

foreign language !! And, ...sometimes it does come down to

this...you just need to force yourself to do things...to get on with your

life..but I think in your case, it's not been very long...like Thanksgiving

??

Jackie

Hi,

I am having a hard time with grieving; for some reason I cannot seem to find

a group around here even though it's a populated area. But what can I do

but move along and cry when it comes and try to keep from getting into that

place of not doing anything at all. It's weird, at a time when I feel I am

ready to open doors of new opportunity, I am paralyzed by these feelings.

I was thinking of the moment when my sister died. I mentioned this before.

I watched her take her last breath; very peaceful, but immediately she had

fluid come from her mouth and so I lost the moment and tried to clean her so

my mom and my niece would not be upset. My mom came up behind me not

knowing had passed and when I told her she was gone, my mom started, I

don't know, sobbing, making noise, and I guess I wanted peacefulness. So I

said: shhhh. Not mean. And my mom got one of those 'tones' " don't shush

me! " . In some ways, my sister would say to me: that figures. And my mom

collapsed in the chair; I had to make sure she didn't fall (her feet and

legs are bad).

Anyway, my point is not all that, but that this mental condition of hers,

conditioned me this way and it has robbed so much from not just me but her.

We couldn't have a heartfelt moment, or me giving compassion (my sister

probably would have). And I find myself this evening missing that

opportunity yet knowing how excruciating it is to let her (mom) in and give

her what she needs Even a death of her daughter, my sister prevented me.

(please send me one more plate of guilt on my order!)

~patricia

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

Thanks~ I could sure use a hug now. Except my stoicism prevents me from letting

people know how badly I feel. Gee, guess where that came from?

You are right that there are different levels to what is going on for me. It's

almost like a cloud that I cannot sort out. I want...but I don't want that

mother figure. I want her to ask me how I am, and I don't want her to.

I keep thinking~ oh i can turn to dad, no, he's gone, to , no...she's gone.

WTF happened? It's like this habit in my mind.

Thank you for your advice; I will try doing that (taking care of my feelings).

It's funny, my son started this thing when I begin to rant about something or

rag on him, he starts petting my head and going: shhh,shhhh. Like I am a cat (I

may have said this before). I told my boyfriend about it because I thought it

was funny, and now Khasha does it to me too. I can try doing it to myself.

Yeah...I think my sister on some level died with me there because that's how it

had to be; I was the strongest person to be there to let her go. I am sure she

could not bear to leave her children; they were her entire life. I just

wish.....i just wish there was some sort of communication we could have had at

that point. My sister was my " sister in arms " too. (I like that phrase). We

went through a hell of a lot in our lives. I always looked out after her...but

there is only so much one can do. The mind breaks down, and then no one can

help.

Thanks again , your words mean a lot

~patricia

Re: grief

Hi ,

Sigh. Sad story. I would have done the exact same thing as you--shhhshing

your mom in just the same way to preserve the peacefulness of the moment.

My overwhelming sense after reading your post is wanting to send a big hug

your way and say: please be gentle with yourself. I feel like you did the best

you could--you're doing the very best you can. Maybe you're not at that place

with your mom yet. But you're doing the best you can, you're working on healing

the damage, you're consciously trying to get to a different place with your mom,

and you're [hopefully] not trying to hurt anyone in the process--which is

probably more than your mom can say.

Sounds like you are grieving on at least a couple different levels--and maybe

even a couple different points in time--namely the present state of your

relationship with your mom, and also the past. So two thoughts on that: (1)

please try to accept and forgive your past self; you did the best you could

under the circumstances [my god, you lost a sister; you couldn't also be

expected to be taking the high road on BP crap too]. and (2) hmmm, turns out

there isn't a 2! I don't know much about processing grief, but I can say

this: I've been recently coming to grips with the recognition of several

losses I didn't even know I had: mourning the childhood I should have but never

had; mourning the mother I never had; mourning the lack of unconditional love;

mourning the loss of my sister's childhood...oh it goes on and you can fill in

the blanks.

But I think the only way through it is through it. My teacher says: let your

negative emotions come--anger, grief, etc. And cradle them gently like a baby,

listen to them, comfort them; take good care of them. And like a crying child,

when you acknowledge them and take good care of them, they will stop crying and

move on. [a poor paraphrase on my part--he is much more eloquent. Hopefully it

conveys the spirit of it.]

I was also thinking: they say that people choose when to die--some people

prefer to die alone, some hang on, defying medical science, for just the right

person to be there. I hope this doesn't come across as coarse, but it seems

like a gift (and testimony to what you/your energy meant to your sister) to have

been there when your sister passed away. It must be really hard losing one of

the key eyewitnesses to your mom's behavior. I recently referred to my sister

as my " sister in arms " , because we had been through the war of nada together.

I'm getting teary just thinking about the prospect of losing her--and we haven't

really been all that close, as you can tell from my posts. I'm so sorry for

your loss.

Sending you a great big hug. And may we all forgive our past and current

selves, and take good care of ourselves.

-

>

> Hi,

> I am having a hard time with grieving; for some reason I cannot seem to find

a group around here even though it's a populated area. But what can I do but

move along and cry when it comes and try to keep from getting into that place of

not doing anything at all. It's weird, at a time when I feel I am ready to open

doors of new opportunity, I am paralyzed by these feelings.

> I was thinking of the moment when my sister died. I mentioned this before.

I watched her take her last breath; very peaceful, but immediately she had fluid

come from her mouth and so I lost the moment and tried to clean her so my mom

and my niece would not be upset. My mom came up behind me not knowing had

passed and when I told her she was gone, my mom started, I don't know, sobbing,

making noise, and I guess I wanted peacefulness. So I said: shhhh. Not mean.

And my mom got one of those 'tones' " don't shush me! " . In some ways, my sister

would say to me: that figures. And my mom collapsed in the chair; I had to make

sure she didn't fall (her feet and legs are bad).

>

> Anyway, my point is not all that, but that this mental condition of hers,

conditioned me this way and it has robbed so much from not just me but her. We

couldn't have a heartfelt moment, or me giving compassion (my sister probably

would have). And I find myself this evening missing that opportunity yet

knowing how excruciating it is to let her (mom) in and give her what she needs

Even a death of her daughter, my sister prevented me. (please send me one

more plate of guilt on my order!)

> ~patricia

>

>

[Guest guest]

,it IS trauma.Any of the things you talk about in your posts would be

traumatic on their own,but you've got a series of traumatic events and

situations.I think there's alot of playing back scenes in your mind when someone

very close to you dies and many,many " what if " and " if only " feelings that are a

part of the grieving process--I don't think that can be avoided.That happens to

people when the grief is more " simple " such as losing someone you had a fairly

uncomplicated relationship with and what's going on with you just has so much

more going on.

I can feel your pain as someone who has had that grieving pain quite a

few times in my life myself--and yet I know from my own experience that words

are largely inadequate.I'm sure that being held by Khasa helped very much: being

held like that contains and simplifies all that emotional chaos,at least for a

moment.I'm really sorry he re-located when he did and that he is so far away

from you now.That sucks.

Being gentle and careful with yourself is good--and that includes

taking your time with yourself right now.It seems to me that part of what is

making things even more difficult for you right now is what is pulling you away

from the direction of that beingness with your own intense grief about so many

things,like having to also deal with your nada/the way she is on your own,having

to deal with an ex who can be invalidating and (imo) disrespectful of you,being

naturally concerned about Levi and his school and having to deal with some

idiots there...those are some serious distractions to being able to tend to your

grief over the deaths of your loved ones...and what you've been saying about

wanting to start over somewhere else is understandable--but it is also

understandable that you'd feel paralyzed by your feelings as you cycle through

the stages of grief (denial,anger,acceptance) which isn't a linear process at

all--with all these other distractions--and grief needs time.Being gentle with

yourself,like going to lay down because *you* need to,is good.When the time

comes for you to set plans for going into motion,you will know it.I went through

alot of that needing to just lie down in the year after fada died,with

everything else that was going on and had gone on--and if this helps,I was

putting myself under much pressure to perform at the same time and in retrospect

it was the going to lay down that helped much more than the performing.If I had

only forced myself to keep going,I think I'd still be doing that and sort of

spinning my wheels.I am able now to make plans because I gave myself some space

and time to regroup.And also that my body eventually rebelled and made me slow

down: I accepted a promotion thinking the achievement would propel me out of the

grief stasis I was in--another case too of not knowing how to gauge my own

limits--and it wasn't until after the deal was done and I was in it that the

stress really hit me.I started to get my period ALL THE TIME.Very painful and

heavy--it would stop for a few days and come right back again.I went to three

gynecologists and they all said there was nothing physically wrong with me--it

was apparently psychological.I also had to keep working in that condition

because the promotion was a career track thing and I couldn't take a leave until

I'd proved myself lest someone else take my place.That *forced* me to be more

gentle with myself and rest more--otherwise I don't think I would have.It was

frustrating to me because at the time it felt like everything was slowing down

and I wasn't progressing--but I was,in a way that I needed and only see clearly

now.I gained a deeper awareness of myself and actually went into the acceptance

stage of grief--bumpily and feeling traumatized--but I am so much clearer

now.I'm just not suffering from the death grief like I was--and mine wasn't just

fada but my grandmother (two years before fada),a close friend (one year before

fada) and my best friend from childhood,a grief that got frozen because nobody

helped me with it at the time and that had preyed on my psyche for years.

Please don't feel like I need you to respond specifically to anything I

say about me in this grief thread.I think this is more about you and so I share

stuff from my experience only in the spirit that it might help you to feel less

alone or isolated in your grief.I personally feel very strong about it at this

point and mostly at peace with it.

Words might not help much right now--and although I do understand it's

hard for me to express this without sort of talking too much--if you need to

keep discussing this topic please do.There are so many layers to what you're

sorting out.I wish you had someone there with you who could physically hold you

but we're here on this board to offer spiritual comfort/with you in spirit.

I know what you mean about another person's reaction (in your case,your

nada) disrupting you.I got stuck on my brother's reactions which ranged from

making too light of the situation to being pointlessly hostile to me.And like

you,I was the only one who realized the truth and everyone else was in some form

of denial.That's a very lonely place to be in.I didn't get to have the kind of

closure that happens in " normal " families at the time when fada died--his

memorial service for example was a freaking nightmare and for a long time I

flashbacked over it with so much intense pain.I had to find closure on my

own--and no,that's not the way it's " supposed " to be.

I think it's common when a loved one dies to feel like you let them

down in some way.Everyone has their own version of this,but I think it's

common.Not meant to minimize the pain of that--I know it hurts and it haunts

you.Like you said,it's an intense time,esp when the person is dying of a painful

illness.I feel that way about every single person close to me who died,in

different ways.I know you haven't been able to find a group in your area,but do

you think a book about the grieving process might help? I know that's not the

same thing as social contact and I know that you're hurting now,but info does go

somewhere eventually,some way towards helping even if that happens later--and

maybe if you knew that other people have experienced the same guilts,knowing

that it isn't just you (and not a fault of yours) might help.Feeling at fault in

some way or feeling flawed or having been somehow inadequate to the moment is

also a part of grieving--I think it's an attempt to make sense of something that

really wasn't in our control but it tempts the mind to think that if only we'd

been more up to the task or more present or more mindful actually that this

could have reduced the overall suffering somehow for everyone involved--and it

is also a form of survivor's guilt because we are still here after all and our

loved one is gone and so is that moment...the moment when we might have,if only

we had,what if we had...made it better...

There's so much to process but you *can* make your way to the other

side of it,by processing your way through and I think that's what you're doing.I

know it's hard and I know it hurts.

Take care,

>

> Hi ,

> I think what it is, is that I sometimes I play back the scene in my head and

yesterday I was feeling bad overall about how some people seem to have these

dying scenes where everyone says goodbye and there is this peaceful, yet sad

feeling. And in our case, it was messed up. That day, I think that everyone

was sort of thinking that was just sleeping. I think it was denial. She

was heavy breathing, like sighing. I realized the truth and sat with her most

of the day. People would pop in and I would leave the girls alone with their

mom; her eyes were blank, open. And I played Neil Young for her, and just sat

there. I understand my mom's reaction, but it disrupted me and I just got

tangled up in reliving that moment; sad, compassion, frustration. To me it

feels like trauma...especially since I also watched my dad die recently. My

sister had said some things while she was sick about being lonely, feeling like

she was dying (at a certain moment), I look just like dad did.

> I just wish I had really heard what she was saying. It eats me up. I feel I

let her down.

>

> Your experience with your father dying sounds like maybe you should have just

stayed in the room for awhile! It does sound like they spoiled the whole

solemnity of the time. God...what a drag these things.

>

> I think what I meant is that the BPD stuff just wrecks every intense thing

because the person with it can't handle intensity unless it is her own throwing

it out of herself onto others.

>

> That situation with your brother and the medications...I can just imagine how

frustrating that was; like you couldn't even get some rest. Ahh..the whole

thing is just unbelievable. The suffering of a person who is dying can be so

intense; I know that stays with me and sometimes just makes me crumple up

inside, outside....

> You are right about the FOO causing this complicated grief; I got two cases of

that going on....and my boyfriend gone. It is very hard to find time and money

to fly across the country. And to communicate on the phone etc. No one is

really lightening my grief for me now; it was Khasha before (with my dad) but

he's too far away; what I liked is just laying down with him and sleeping with

him, being held. That helped me so much.

>

> ~ thank you for your compassion. Your articulation. It helps me. I

am listening to what everyone has said and going to try to be careful and gentle

with myself. I might go lay down even though it is only 4:00.

> ~patricia

>

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ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

,I wrote a post to you in reply to yours but it seems to have

disappeared into the ether.AAARRGGHH.

Where did it go??????? It's not on the board? I'll write to you again

tomorrow.I need to go to sleep now.

Take care,

> >

> > Hi,

> > I am having a hard time with grieving; for some reason I cannot seem to

find a group around here even though it's a populated area. But what can I do

but move along and cry when it comes and try to keep from getting into that

place of not doing anything at all. It's weird, at a time when I feel I am

ready to open doors of new opportunity, I am paralyzed by these feelings.

> > I was thinking of the moment when my sister died. I mentioned this

before. I watched her take her last breath; very peaceful, but immediately she

had fluid come from her mouth and so I lost the moment and tried to clean her so

my mom and my niece would not be upset. My mom came up behind me not knowing

had passed and when I told her she was gone, my mom started, I don't know,

sobbing, making noise, and I guess I wanted peacefulness. So I said: shhhh. Not

mean. And my mom got one of those 'tones' " don't shush me! " . In some ways, my

sister would say to me: that figures. And my mom collapsed in the chair; I had

to make sure she didn't fall (her feet and legs are bad).

> >

> > Anyway, my point is not all that, but that this mental condition of hers,

conditioned me this way and it has robbed so much from not just me but her. We

couldn't have a heartfelt moment, or me giving compassion (my sister probably

would have). And I find myself this evening missing that opportunity yet

knowing how excruciating it is to let her (mom) in and give her what she needs

Even a death of her daughter, my sister prevented me. (please send me one

more plate of guilt on my order!)

> > ~patricia

> >

> >