Re: stalking bpd-ers

[Guest guest]

Oh, my gosh. She reminds me of my own mother so much!!! That's just crazy,

the resemblences.

My mother would also try to develop relationships of her own with my

friends or boyfriends. It was really strange. Then when I'd confront her she

would play the victim or play innocent. Just very, very weird.

She did the " you want me to pay for everything " thing with me and my sister

more because we complained she never did anything with us or spent time

with us. The amazing thing was that she didn't want to do things like go

shopping, go out to eat, etc...(under the guise that we just wanted her to pay

for it) and yet she would get highly angered if we actually had FRIENDS and

went and did things with them. And heaven forbid I met someone who was

close to her age that I spent time with!!! The jealousy would enrage her to

the point that she'd ruin the relationship by telling the person horrible

things about me -- most of which weren't true at all.

In a message dated 2/16/2010 4:19:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

ninera73@... writes:

Stalking, but not to that degree! Subtle stalking, mostly...and from a

competitive angle with my nada. I joined the church choir...all of a sudden

she had this burning desire to sing, too. She was known to call my employers,

my friends, my boyfriends, etc to try to develop her own relationship with

them...but based that relationship on trashing MY reputation with them. It

really creeped people out to all of a sudden have her calling them to tell

them how horrible I was.

Since I went nc, she tries to pay attention to which relatives I'm

befriending (who knew they all actually would LIKE me???) and then tries to

pursue

relationships with them even if she never did before. Just a couple of

weeks ago she " accidentally " called one of my best friend. My friend answered

the call without looking at the caller ID...nada said my friend's first

name, my friend was like " Uh, who is this? " and nada replied " Oh, this is

Ninera's mother, I'm so sorry, I have you in my phone under just your first

name, I have someone else in there with the same name and must have dialed the

wrong one! " My friend said " Oh " and hung up on her. I pointed out to her,

when she told me, that there is little chance it was accidental..Since I

went nc, she tries to pay attention to which relatives I'm befriending (who

Weirdo.

Sometimes, I've had fun with it. Is that bad? I realized awhile ago the

competitiveness, so I'd mess with her. I'd mention that I was DYING to

redecorate my bedroom in this or that color scheme (something I really did NOT

want). She'd yell and berate me because she always thinks that if I mention

wanting something that I'm demanding she pay for it. *eyeroll* Then, sure

enough, a couple weeks later she'd call all delighted that she'd redone her

room or the guest room...in exactly the scheme I'd mentioned previously. And

then snarky me would say " Oh, that's nice, yeah, I redid mine too but

redid it all this way...I love it... "

Bad daughter? :-)

> From: _Hummingbird1298@Humming_ (mailto:Hummingbird1298@...)

<_Hummingbird1298@Humming_ (mailto:Hummingbird1298@...) >

> Subject: stalking bpd-ers

> To: _WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_

(mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 )

> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 7:27 PM

> I wondered if you all feel stalked by

> your bpd parents. I know I did by my

> mother as she couldn't go more than 5 hours without calling

> me and if I

> didn't answer she literally hunted me down. Then some

> of you said that you

> feared for your lives sometimes from your bpd

> parents. Did you know ted bundy

> was dx as bpd? Just thought that was interesting.

>

> I wonder if some of you can ask your therapists their

> experiences with

> bpd's because I asked mine.

>

> One therapist told me she had a bpd client she eventually

> had to get a

> restraining order against. The woman cut herself and wrote

> in blood on her car

> door (the therapist's car door). She called her house and

> harrassed her

> children (who were teens at the time).

>

> My current therapist told me a more terrifying experience.

>

> She had a bpd client find out where she lived. She lived in

> a gated

> community and the woman couldn't get in. I don't know how

> she caught her but the

> woman admitted it-- freaky. Scares me FOR HER.

>

> The same client broke into her email. I don't know how it

> all came about

> either, but supposedly she got suspicious someone was

> deleting her emails and

> somehow figured it out. I have her email address too and

> she said she

> actually has an email she set up just for clients,

> separate from her personal

> email. This woman somehow got the password and was

> deleting emails from

> other clients....oh. client clients....oh.

> personal email and broke

> into it too. This was way before I was a

> client...thank God. I would freak out

> if I thought anyone read my emails to my

> therapist!!!

> She made a fake name on myspace (or facebook or some

> similar thing like

> that) and befriended her (the therapist's) adult daughter,

> pretending to be

> someone else.

> She would refuse to leave when her appointments ended,

> always finding

> reasons to stay longer, acting out or whatever she had to

> do to make the

> appointments last and then would take 20 minutes trying to

> apologize for her

> behavior.

> Joined an online group my therapist was a member of as a

> fake person.

> Would spiral out of control if she went on vacation,

> cancelled the appt.,

> or was even 5 minutes late.

> Would sit in the parking lot after her appointments

> watching her clients

> go in and out and then accuse her of seeing some clients

> longer than her.

> OMG...just weird and kinda makes me paranoid to see who's

> watching me when I

> go in and out.

> And she said she'd ride by the office on days she didn't

> have appts... we

> did laugh about that because I thought it was so pathetic

> and sad....I also

> commented that that in and of itself would never prove I

> didn't have bpd,

> because I already drive 1.5 hours to go see her and I

> certainly was not

> driving over on days I didn't see her just to ride by and

> see her car in front

> of building. LOL

>

> I asked her how she got away from the woman and ended it

> and she said...we

> moved across the country. LOL....she didn't move for

> that reason, but it

> was a perk, I guess.

>

> There was more, but this was the jist of it. Now, I

> couldn't see my mother

> doing things like this. I could see her getting jealous of

> other people,

> but I never knew of her to do things like this to

> anyone except my sister, me

> or my dad.

>

> This is just messed up!!!

>

> s

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Annie, I am not sure if that was his only diagnosis, but I heard it on

a documentary that was discussing bpd not long ago on youtube.

It sounds scary what you went through. I had a similar experience with

someone who has DID and suspect some bpd as well. It wasn't quite as extreme as

what you went through, but she and I exchanged numbers and were talking.

Well, when I didn't answer, she'd leave me nasty messages saying things

like, " I saw you posted on the forum but you can't answer my calls. How come

you never answer me? " , etc....She also got upset because I was apparently not

posting as much on the forum as she wanted and was not responding to her

emails. I finally just stopped talking to her and recently she sent me an

email telling me how much I had hurt her. I emailed her back and apologized

for hurting her but said that I just could not be the friend she apparently

needed right now. I said I had a lot going on (which I do) and that her

messages told me she expected more of me than I could possibly give her in a

friendship. She doesn't even live in the same state and we have never met in

person. I told her I really am not a big emailer and rarely email ANYONE

and it was nothing personal, but she is single with no kids. I am married

with 3 children, a house, a job, school, laundry, errands...on and on. I

could not make her understand that I have things to do that don't tie me to the

computer and phone. She never got it. She was so passive-aggressive about

the whole thing, so I just decided I needed to step away from the

relationship altogether.

In a message dated 2/16/2010 5:41:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

anuria-67854@... writes:

I was cyberstalked for about 3 years by an ex-old friend (who was formally

diagnosed with narcissistic pd) who would create false IDs and post

negative, weirdly intimate private emails and group messages at groups I

belonged

to. Like, messages that seemed that the poster was trying to provoke a

fight with me, and messages that made uncanny references to my life, my work,

my plans, etc. I was freaked out that strangers seemed to know so much about

me and were being so hostile toward me, and then I finally figured out

that all these " strangers " must be this ex-friend who was out to " get me

back " .

Thank God it never escalated to in-person stalking and harassing, and she

never attacked my professional reputation. But it was very stressful and

weird when it was happening. The only thing that worked for me was to never

respond to posts from strangers that seemed oddly and unexplainably hostile

or posters who seemed to have an eerie knowledge of my life history.

So, yes, I believe that bpds could very likely have that stalker mentality

also; I would have guessed that Bundy would have been diagnosed as an

antisocial (sociopathic, psychopathic) pd, though. I'm surprised that he was

" only " a bpd.

-Annie

--- In _WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_

(mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) , Hummingbird1298@, Humm

>

> I wondered if you all feel stalked by your bpd parents. I know I did by

my

> mother as she couldn't go more than 5 hours without calling me and if I

> didn't answer she literally hunted me down. Then some of you said that

you

> feared for your lives sometimes from your bpd parents. Did you know ted

bundy

> was dx as bpd? Just thought that was interesting.

>

> I wonder if some of you can ask your therapists their experiences with

> bpd's because I asked mine.

>

> One therapist told me she had a bpd client she eventually had to get a

> restraining order against. The woman cut herself and wrote in blood on

her car

> door (the therapist's car door). She called her house and harrassed her

> children (who were teens at the time).

>

> My current therapist told me a more terrifying experience.

>

> She had a bpd client find out where she lived. She lived in a gated

> community and the woman couldn't get in. I don't know how she caught her

but the

> woman admitted it-- freaky. Scares me FOR HER.

>

> The same client broke into her email. I don't know how it all came about

> either, but supposedly she got suspicious someone was deleting her

emails and

> somehow figured it out. I have her email address too and she said she

> actually has an email she set up just for clients, separate from her

personal

> email. This woman somehow got the password and was deleting emails from

> other clients....oh. other other

clients....oh.<WBR>my.heavens!<WBR>!!

> into it too. This was way before I was a client...thank God. I would

freak out

> if I thought anyone read my emails to my therapist!!!

> She made a fake name on myspace (or facebook or some similar thing like

> that) and befriended her (the therapist's) adult daughter, pretending to

be

> someone else.

> She would refuse to leave when her appointments ended, always finding

> reasons to stay longer, acting out or whatever she had to do to make the

> appointments last and then would take 20 minutes trying to apologize for

her

> behavior.

> Joined an online group my therapist was a member of as a fake person.

> Would spiral out of control if she went on vacation, cancelled the

appt.,

> or was even 5 minutes late.

> Would sit in the parking lot after her appointments watching her clients

> go in and out and then accuse her of seeing some clients longer than

her.

> OMG...just weird and kinda makes me paranoid to see who's watching me

when I

> go in and out.

> And she said she'd ride by the office on days she didn't have appts...

we

> did laugh about that because I thought it was so pathetic and sad....I

also

> commented that that in and of itself would never prove I didn't have

bpd,

> because I already drive 1.5 hours to go see her and I certainly was not

> driving over on days I didn't see her just to ride by and see her car in

front

> of building. LOL

>

> I asked her how she got away from the woman and ended it and she

said...we

> moved across the country. LOL....she didn't move for that reason, but it

> was a perk, I guess.

>

> There was more, but this was the jist of it. Now, I couldn't see my

mother

> doing things like this. I could see her getting jealous of other people,

> but I never knew of her to do things like this to anyone except my

sister, me

> or my dad.

>

> This is just messed up!!!

>

> s

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

[Guest guest]

Stalking, but not to that degree! Subtle stalking, mostly...and from a

competitive angle with my nada. I joined the church choir...all of a sudden she

had this burning desire to sing, too. She was known to call my employers, my

friends, my boyfriends, etc to try to develop her own relationship with

them...but based that relationship on trashing MY reputation with them. It

really creeped people out to all of a sudden have her calling them to tell them

how horrible I was.

Since I went nc, she tries to pay attention to which relatives I'm befriending

(who knew they all actually would LIKE me???) and then tries to pursue

relationships with them even if she never did before. Just a couple of weeks

ago she " accidentally " called one of my best friend. My friend answered the

call without looking at the caller ID...nada said my friend's first name, my

friend was like " Uh, who is this? " and nada replied " Oh, this is Ninera's

mother, I'm so sorry, I have you in my phone under just your first name, I have

someone else in there with the same name and must have dialed the wrong one! "

My friend said " Oh " and hung up on her. I pointed out to her, when she told me,

that there is little chance it was accidental...otherwise, how would nada have

known to right away identify herself as MY mother?

Weirdo.

Sometimes, I've had fun with it. Is that bad? I realized awhile ago the

competitiveness, so I'd mess with her. I'd mention that I was DYING to

redecorate my bedroom in this or that color scheme (something I really did NOT

want). She'd yell and berate me because she always thinks that if I mention

wanting something that I'm demanding she pay for it. *eyeroll* Then, sure

enough, a couple weeks later she'd call all delighted that she'd redone her room

or the guest room...in exactly the scheme I'd mentioned previously. And then

snarky me would say " Oh, that's nice, yeah, I redid mine too but redid it all

this way...I love it... "

Bad daughter? :-)

>

> Subject: stalking bpd-ers

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Tuesday, February 16, 2010, 7:27 PM

> I wondered if you all feel stalked by

> your bpd parents. I know I did by my 

> mother as she couldn't go more than 5 hours without calling

> me and if I

> didn't  answer she literally hunted me down. Then some

> of you said that you

> feared for  your lives sometimes from your bpd

> parents. Did you know ted bundy

> was dx as  bpd? Just thought that was interesting.

>

> I wonder if some of you can ask your therapists their

> experiences with 

> bpd's because I asked mine.

>

> One therapist told me she had a bpd client she eventually

> had to get a 

> restraining order against. The woman cut herself and wrote

> in blood on her car 

> door (the therapist's car door). She called her house and

> harrassed her

> children  (who were teens at the time).

>

> My current therapist told me a more terrifying experience.

>

> She had a bpd client find out where she lived. She lived in

> a gated 

> community and the woman couldn't get in. I don't know how

> she caught  her but the

> woman admitted it-- freaky. Scares me FOR HER.

>

> The same client broke into her email. I don't know how it

> all came about 

> either, but supposedly she got suspicious someone was

> deleting her emails and

> somehow figured it out. I have her email address too and

> she said she

> actually  has an email she set up just for clients,

> separate from her personal

> email. This  woman somehow got the password and was

> deleting emails from

> other  clients....oh.my.heavens!!! She also got her

> personal email and broke

> into it  too. This was way before I was a

> client...thank God. I would freak out

> if I  thought anyone read my emails to my

> therapist!!!

> She made a fake name on myspace (or facebook or some

> similar thing like 

> that) and befriended her (the therapist's) adult daughter,

> pretending to be 

> someone else.

> She would refuse to leave when her appointments ended,

> always finding 

> reasons to stay longer, acting out or whatever she had to

> do to make the 

> appointments last and then would take 20 minutes trying to

> apologize for her 

> behavior.

> Joined an online group my therapist was a member of as a

> fake person.

> Would spiral out of control if she went on vacation,

> cancelled the appt., 

> or was even 5 minutes late.

> Would sit in the parking lot after her appointments

> watching her  clients

> go in and out and then accuse her of seeing some clients

> longer than  her.

> OMG...just weird and kinda makes me paranoid to see who's

> watching me when  I

> go in and out.

> And she said she'd ride by the office on days she didn't

> have appts... we 

> did laugh about that because I thought it was so pathetic

> and sad....I  also

> commented that that in and of itself would never prove I

> didn't have  bpd,

> because I already drive 1.5 hours to go see her and I

> certainly was  not

> driving over on days I didn't see her just to ride by and

> see her car in  front

> of building. LOL

>

> I asked her how she got away from the woman and ended it

> and she said...we 

> moved across the country.  LOL....she didn't move for

> that reason, but it 

> was a perk, I guess.

>

> There was more, but this was the jist of it. Now, I

> couldn't see my mother 

> doing things like this. I could see her getting jealous of

> other people,

> but I  never knew of her to do things like this to

> anyone except my sister, me

> or my  dad.

>

> This is just messed up!!!

>

> s

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was cyberstalked for about 3 years by an ex-old friend (who was formally

diagnosed with narcissistic pd) who would create false IDs and post negative,

weirdly intimate private emails and group messages at groups I belonged to.

Like, messages that seemed that the poster was trying to provoke a fight with

me, and messages that made uncanny references to my life, my work, my plans,

etc. I was freaked out that strangers seemed to know so much about me and were

being so hostile toward me, and then I finally figured out that all these

" strangers " must be this ex-friend who was out to " get me back " .

Thank God it never escalated to in-person stalking and harassing, and she never

attacked my professional reputation. But it was very stressful and weird when

it was happening. The only thing that worked for me was to never respond to

posts from strangers that seemed oddly and unexplainably hostile or posters who

seemed to have an eerie knowledge of my life history.

So, yes, I believe that bpds could very likely have that stalker mentality also;

I would have guessed that Bundy would have been diagnosed as an antisocial

(sociopathic, psychopathic) pd, though. I'm surprised that he was " only " a bpd.

-Annie

>

> I wondered if you all feel stalked by your bpd parents. I know I did by my

> mother as she couldn't go more than 5 hours without calling me and if I

> didn't answer she literally hunted me down. Then some of you said that you

> feared for your lives sometimes from your bpd parents. Did you know ted bundy

> was dx as bpd? Just thought that was interesting.

>

> I wonder if some of you can ask your therapists their experiences with

> bpd's because I asked mine.

>

> One therapist told me she had a bpd client she eventually had to get a

> restraining order against. The woman cut herself and wrote in blood on her car

> door (the therapist's car door). She called her house and harrassed her

> children (who were teens at the time).

>

> My current therapist told me a more terrifying experience.

>

> She had a bpd client find out where she lived. She lived in a gated

> community and the woman couldn't get in. I don't know how she caught her but

the

> woman admitted it-- freaky. Scares me FOR HER.

>

> The same client broke into her email. I don't know how it all came about

> either, but supposedly she got suspicious someone was deleting her emails and

> somehow figured it out. I have her email address too and she said she

> actually has an email she set up just for clients, separate from her personal

> email. This woman somehow got the password and was deleting emails from

> other clients....oh.my.heavens!!! She also got her personal email and broke

> into it too. This was way before I was a client...thank God. I would freak

out

> if I thought anyone read my emails to my therapist!!!

> She made a fake name on myspace (or facebook or some similar thing like

> that) and befriended her (the therapist's) adult daughter, pretending to be

> someone else.

> She would refuse to leave when her appointments ended, always finding

> reasons to stay longer, acting out or whatever she had to do to make the

> appointments last and then would take 20 minutes trying to apologize for her

> behavior.

> Joined an online group my therapist was a member of as a fake person.

> Would spiral out of control if she went on vacation, cancelled the appt.,

> or was even 5 minutes late.

> Would sit in the parking lot after her appointments watching her clients

> go in and out and then accuse her of seeing some clients longer than her.

> OMG...just weird and kinda makes me paranoid to see who's watching me when I

> go in and out.

> And she said she'd ride by the office on days she didn't have appts... we

> did laugh about that because I thought it was so pathetic and sad....I also

> commented that that in and of itself would never prove I didn't have bpd,

> because I already drive 1.5 hours to go see her and I certainly was not

> driving over on days I didn't see her just to ride by and see her car in

front

> of building. LOL

>

> I asked her how she got away from the woman and ended it and she said...we

> moved across the country. LOL....she didn't move for that reason, but it

> was a perk, I guess.

>

> There was more, but this was the jist of it. Now, I couldn't see my mother

> doing things like this. I could see her getting jealous of other people,

> but I never knew of her to do things like this to anyone except my sister, me

> or my dad.

>

> This is just messed up!!!

>

> s

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree, I think that was a travesty of justice. The perp didn't even seem to

feel any remorse over it. She must be a total narcissistic pd or even

antisocial pd, seems to me: bullying behavior, calculated emotional torture, no

conscience, no sense of right or wrong, felt entitled to " get back at " a kid,

blames the kid, takes no responsibility for her own behaviors, etc., etc.

I hope there is a *special* place in Hell waiting for that broad.

-Annie

> >

> > I wondered if you all feel stalked by your bpd parents. I know I did by my

> > mother as she couldn't go more than 5 hours without calling me and if I

> > didn't answer she literally hunted me down. Then some of you said that you

> > feared for your lives sometimes from your bpd parents. Did you know ted

bundy

> > was dx as bpd? Just thought that was interesting.

> >

> > I wonder if some of you can ask your therapists their experiences with

> > bpd's because I asked mine.

> >

> > One therapist told me she had a bpd client she eventually had to get a

> > restraining order against. The woman cut herself and wrote in blood on her

car

> > door (the therapist's car door). She called her house and harrassed her

> > children (who were teens at the time).

> >

> > My current therapist told me a more terrifying experience.

> >

> > She had a bpd client find out where she lived. She lived in a gated

> > community and the woman couldn't get in. I don't know how she caught her

but the

> > woman admitted it-- freaky. Scares me FOR HER.

> >

> > The same client broke into her email. I don't know how it all came about

> > either, but supposedly she got suspicious someone was deleting her emails

and

> > somehow figured it out. I have her email address too and she said she

> > actually has an email she set up just for clients, separate from her

personal

> > email. This woman somehow got the password and was deleting emails from

> > other clients....oh.my.heavens!!! She also got her personal email and broke

> > into it too. This was way before I was a client...thank God. I would freak

out

> > if I thought anyone read my emails to my therapist!!!

> > She made a fake name on myspace (or facebook or some similar thing like

> > that) and befriended her (the therapist's) adult daughter, pretending to be

> > someone else.

> > She would refuse to leave when her appointments ended, always finding

> > reasons to stay longer, acting out or whatever she had to do to make the

> > appointments last and then would take 20 minutes trying to apologize for her

> > behavior.

> > Joined an online group my therapist was a member of as a fake person.

> > Would spiral out of control if she went on vacation, cancelled the appt.,

> > or was even 5 minutes late.

> > Would sit in the parking lot after her appointments watching her clients

> > go in and out and then accuse her of seeing some clients longer than her.

> > OMG...just weird and kinda makes me paranoid to see who's watching me when

I

> > go in and out.

> > And she said she'd ride by the office on days she didn't have appts... we

> > did laugh about that because I thought it was so pathetic and sad....I also

> > commented that that in and of itself would never prove I didn't have bpd,

> > because I already drive 1.5 hours to go see her and I certainly was not

> > driving over on days I didn't see her just to ride by and see her car in

front

> > of building. LOL

> >

> > I asked her how she got away from the woman and ended it and she said...we

> > moved across the country. LOL....she didn't move for that reason, but it

> > was a perk, I guess.

> >

> > There was more, but this was the jist of it. Now, I couldn't see my mother

> > doing things like this. I could see her getting jealous of other people,

> > but I never knew of her to do things like this to anyone except my sister,

me

> > or my dad.

> >

> > This is just messed up!!!

> >

> > s

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yeah,Annie,that woman appeared to feel no remorse whatsoever.And who knows if

that was the only time she'd done something like that--it seems more likely it

was just the only time she got caught.Unfortunately,what she learned about

getting caught was that there wouldn't be any serious consequences to *her*.

I think cases like this demonstrate what you were saying about the new DSM

5--that the diagnosis of a severe PD should signal that the individual is

dangerous to children and could cause them great harm,as much as an unmonitored

pedophile.

I was reading about a working diagnosis that's being used in the UK with

young violent offenders: Emerging Severe Personality Disorder.Due to some

extreme cases there of kids harming other kids there is a working group of

professionals who are trying to come up with a treatment plan for kids who

qualify for a diagnosis of ESPD--however it's not yet known if treatment will

actually work enough for these kids to go on to have productive,non-offending

lives outside of the juvenile detention center.It will be interesting to see if

they do come up with something that works in most cases.I looked it up on the

internet but there isn't much info about it.But the articles I read about the

specific cases/crimes that were in the news mention that the diagnosis (and

assumption of definite dangerousness to society on the part of these kids) is

based on *personality disorder* as an emerging " functional " construct.

>

> I agree, I think that was a travesty of justice. The perp didn't even seem to

feel any remorse over it. She must be a total narcissistic pd or even

antisocial pd, seems to me: bullying behavior, calculated emotional torture, no

conscience, no sense of right or wrong, felt entitled to " get back at " a kid,

blames the kid, takes no responsibility for her own behaviors, etc., etc.

>

> I hope there is a *special* place in Hell waiting for that broad.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

,that was the other thing that I couldn't believe about that case: that

a *grown* woman would not only think up such a plot against a kid but would then

go through with it and keep it up.

And yes,if that girl hadn't been so socially isolated,she wouldn't have

been so vulnerable.If she had had someone to go to who would really listen or

some place of acceptance,she wouldn't have ended up chatting to that

" boy " .Although I think her mother did become an activist afterward for online

safety issues for kids and the issue of cyber bullying.

>

> I remember this case, ; it is hard to imagine a grown woman doing

something like this.

> I think the whole social structure of how we leave kids vulnerable to other

kids (and in

> this case an adult posing as a kid) is wrong.

> ~p

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

This story disturbed me so much because in another life I easily could have been

that girl. I was thirteen isolated, bullied in school and one of the favorite

games was for a boy to pretend to like me. I learned quick not to believe them.

I can't even imagine what it did to that poor girl. I think we'll know our

society has evolved when a woman like that does not get away with free speech

that amounts to emotional torture.

> >

> > I remember this case, ; it is hard to imagine a grown woman doing

something like this.

> > I think the whole social structure of how we leave kids vulnerable to other

kids (and in

> > this case an adult posing as a kid) is wrong.

> > ~p

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

My god,,that's terrible.I'm glad you learned quick not to believe

them.Children can be so thoughtlessly cruel.I can remember tricks the other

students played on some of the kids,so frigging mean.I guess they learned that

crap at home.It pissed me off so much,I liked to get back at the bully on the

victim's behalf,like when one of them sprayed a girl who lived in poverty with

Lysol one day on the bus and when he came into school one day wearing a knit hat

in class I snatched it off his head and got everyone else going in a game of

toss-the-hat while we laughed at him and he tried in vain to get his hat back to

cover his shame: his father had shaved his head at home as some punishment...not

the solution,though,for another kid to bully the bully...it's when society

evolves,like you said,to step in and say no and to name bullying for what it

is...it begins at home and that has also got to stop...and saying that free

speech had anything to do with what truly was emotional torture only enables it

to continue...it's the act of bullying itself that must be condemned...that

story disturbed me too because it reminded me of the injustice I witnessed in

school and that no adult stepped up to the plate....

> > >

> > > I remember this case, ; it is hard to imagine a grown woman doing

something like this.

> > > I think the whole social structure of how we leave kids vulnerable to

other kids (and in

> > > this case an adult posing as a kid) is wrong.

> > > ~p

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> > >

> > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > >

> > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I think that's awesome that you were able to get back at the bully

like that for the poor girl. Sounds like you were a kick ass kid One time I

did stand up for a friend who people were bullying for coughing (she had

pneumonia) I felt like a mother lion! Somehow it was easier to summon up the

strength to defend someone else.

I'm puzzled too why the adults don't act. There were many teachers that saw

what was happening to me. I even requested seating changes to sit farther away

from certain people - which they granted. But no one ever contacted my nada

(that I know of) and when I told her what was happening finally she never

offered to talk to anyone. She was willing to let me change schools if I

wanted, but not to take any action on her part. For about one school year I

was regularly called ugly, a slut, disgusting, had my stuff stolen and ripped

up, gum stuck in my hair, people calling names out at me every time I walked

down a hallway. The first time I heard the words " I love you " from a non-family

member it was as a joke played out in front dozens of kids. I played sick a lot,

got out of school as much as I could that year. But no one not my nada, the

doctor who couldn't find anything wrong with me, not my grandparents who I

stayed with for weeks ever sat me down to ask...was okay? what was happening

for me? After that year I lost faith in every person in my life and I'm not

sure that I've ever repaired the damage fully.

thanks for reading,

julie

> > > >

> > > > I remember this case, ; it is hard to imagine a grown woman

doing something like this.

> > > > I think the whole social structure of how we leave kids vulnerable to

other kids (and in

> > > > this case an adult posing as a kid) is wrong.

> > > > ~p

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND

HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> > > >

> > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > > >

> > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

There's a reason why movies like " Mean Girls " are a hit...because there is so

much reality in it. It's easier, as an adult, to look back, and to read books

like " Queen Bees and Wannabes " (the research book that Mean Girls was based on)

and see that much of that meanness is perpetrated by equally unstable young

girls who are struggling to identify who THEY are and that this struggle comes

out in the form of cruelty to peers.

But when you're the kid catching the meanness, none of that research or reasons

means much, does it?

I made the stellar mistake of trying out for the cheerleading squad and MAKING

the team in high school. I wasn't part of the popular " cheerleader " crowd and

tried out to keep a friend company. I was the only " non cheerleader " to make

the squad and it was a disaster. I was fairly new to the school (and the state)

and had no clue that the top two mean girls were on the squad. I was quickly

their target, even getting a death threat " anonymous " note in my locker. I

didn't know how to respond...I knew the main perpetrator had her own troubles:

her mom had died and her dad had left, leaving her to be raised by a much older

sister who had a family of her own. I felt *bad* for her, I couldn't be mean

back!

Nada didn't make it easier...when she learned of some of the problems, she

called that girl's guardian and spent hours telling her how rotten I was, making

up things and embellishing others as nadas are wont to do.

So the next bus ride home from a game, I sat alone in front while the other

girls held court in the back, the one girl regaling them all with the tales nada

told. Total humiliation, game set and match to nada!

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: stalking bpd-ers

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 8:08 AM

> I think that's awesome that

> you were able to get back at the bully like that for the

> poor girl.  Sounds like you were a kick ass kid

>   One time I did stand up for a friend who people

> were bullying for coughing (she had pneumonia) I felt like a

> mother lion! Somehow it was easier to summon up the strength

> to defend someone else.

>

> I'm puzzled too why the adults don't

> act.   There were many teachers that saw what

> was happening to me.  I even requested seating changes

> to sit farther away from certain people - which they

> granted.  But no one ever contacted my nada (that I

> know of) and when I told her what was happening finally she

> never offered to talk to anyone.  She was willing to

> let me change schools if I wanted, but not to take any

> action on her part.   For about one school

> year I was regularly called ugly, a slut, disgusting, had my

> stuff stolen and ripped up, gum stuck in my hair, people

> calling names out at me every time I walked down a hallway.

> The first time I heard the words " I love you " from a

> non-family member it was as a joke played out in front

> dozens of kids. I played sick a lot, got out of school as

> much as I could that year.  But no one not my nada, the

> doctor who couldn't find anything wrong with me, not my

> grandparents who I stayed with for weeks ever sat me down to

> ask...was okay?  what was happening for

> me?   After that year I lost faith in every

> person in my life and I'm not sure that I've ever repaired

> the damage fully.

>

> thanks for reading,

> julie

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > I remember this case, ; it is

> hard to imagine a grown woman doing something like this.

> > > > > I think the whole social structure of

> how we leave kids vulnerable to other kids (and in

> > > > > this case an adult posing as a kid) is

> wrong.

> > > > > ~p

> > > > >   >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> >   ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >   Problems? Ask our

> friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER ANY

> POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> > > > >

> > > > >   To order the KO bible

> " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> () for your copy. We also refer to

> " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and

> " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find

> at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > > > >

> > > > >   From Randi Kreger,

> Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

> the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

,you have an amazing spirit,to have endured such vile treatment from others

and to have emerged from that with your capacity for kindness and compassion

intact.That is something I also recall,come to think of it: many (not most,but

many) of the kids I saw bullied at school were the really nice ones,the good and

gentle souls.

I think that's why seeing them bullied pissed me off so much,because

goodness *means* something to me.To me,kind hearted people aren't pushovers or

" fools " (borrowing from nada there lol) but are in fact the ones who keep this

world from going entirely to pot.

But having said that,I also find that it's easier to summon up the

strength to defend someone else,maybe because my own issues of self blame/self

dislike aren't involved and someone else's hurt just seems more clearcut and

wrong than my own would.Kudos to you for standing up for your friend--being

bullied for having pneumonia???? My god.

What you shared is just downright heartbreaking.I'm so sorry,.I

wonder if these people,when they're adults,look back on how they behaved as kids

with shame?

As for the adults,it seems like alot of buck passing goes on.And also

blaming the victim.And just plain cowardice or lack of a backbone: nobody wants

to stick their neck out.Of course with our PD parents we know there are other

issues,many related to pure self-centeredness which becomes cluelessness.

During and after sixth grade I got labelled a " pistol " by both peers

and the school--a record that followed me to my next two schools.I wasn't

exactly--I prefer to practice harmlessness as much as possible--but labelling

someone is much easier than trying to understand them.Nobody asked

me,either,what was going on with me except the psychiatrist I saw and then the

therapist who didn't listen to my honest answer.

That you lost faith in people during that time at school makes sense

given what you endured.I lost faith myself in adults and to a great extent in

the other kids that year in sixth grade.In the kids because once I decided to

launch a campaign of revenge against my teacher it seemed like what I had to do

was amass my own small army to help me use his own tactics of humiliation

against me.I had to then turn the desire in the other kids to have the power to

humiliate and harm another person to my advantage by being the catalyst who gave

them the permission to do so.Granted,the teacher had been asking for it for

months,but to me it was still ugly,an ugly thing.The kids I carefully recruited

to be my troops were only too happy to have a chance to be ugly and mean and

they enjoyed it.That disturbed me--it was like,what exactly am I surrounded by

in this world? Because there has got to be something that truly moves the world

beyond raw power or the desire for it.I also discovered through trial and error

and a couple of " army AWOL " incidents that I harshly punished that your troops

*will* mutiny if they aren't controlled with a combination of perks and threats:

I paid my troops with treats and candy and the promise (which I kept so they

would know I meant it) of always taking the fall myself if anyone got in trouble

for our campaigns against the teacher--and yet I also had to subject any

mutineers or deserters with public humiliation/rejection from the ranks of the

" few and the proud " and to keep the rest of them in line,I did just that on a

couple of occasions.It was ugly and it was dysfunctional and while it made me

lose my faith in my peers because they couldn't just join me of their own

volition in getting back at a wrongdoer as an ethical stance they were taking of

their own freewill,it also made me question the entire world and also myself.

I wouldn't say it's better to just be a martyr but I think it's no

better if,by fighting back,you're engaging in the kind of dysfunction that

perpetuates,in the end,what it was you were trying to combat.It seems like human

beings have the same " alpha " mentality as many animal groups,an over reliance on

a " strong leader " or an " authority " ,and it's the " alpha " part of the equation

that holds as the most meaningful symbolism--so when you get something like a

bullying scenario when " the leader " is the one doing the bullying and no adult

is willing to take the responsibility for stepping in as the " authority " to

challenge the bullying " leader " ,even if it's a kid,that whole alpha dynamic

holds sway and what you get is people,adults included,just looking the other

way.I don't think I explained that very well but I think it must be a powerful

unconscious impulse,to let the " alpha " be or to let " alpha-ness " be if you

aren't yourself willing to take on that role.I also think that's unfortunate to

the point of being wrong.

It sounds like this is an existential issue for you,this question of

having faith in humanity? I might be projecting there a bit,so excuse me if I

am,but I know that it is for me.I've been thinking about it alot lately!

Thank you for sharing your experience.

>

> I think that's awesome that you were able to get back at the bully

like that for the poor girl. Sounds like you were a kick ass kid One time I

did stand up for a friend who people were bullying for coughing (she had

pneumonia) I felt like a mother lion! Somehow it was easier to summon up the

strength to defend someone else.

>

> I'm puzzled too why the adults don't act. There were many teachers that saw

what was happening to me. I even requested seating changes to sit farther away

from certain people - which they granted. But no one ever contacted my nada

(that I know of) and when I told her what was happening finally she never

offered to talk to anyone. She was willing to let me change schools if I

wanted, but not to take any action on her part. For about one school year I

was regularly called ugly, a slut, disgusting, had my stuff stolen and ripped

up, gum stuck in my hair, people calling names out at me every time I walked

down a hallway. The first time I heard the words " I love you " from a non-family

member it was as a joke played out in front dozens of kids. I played sick a lot,

got out of school as much as I could that year. But no one not my nada, the

doctor who couldn't find anything wrong with me, not my grandparents who I

stayed with for weeks ever sat me down to ask...was okay? what was happening

for me? After that year I lost faith in every person in my life and I'm not

sure that I've ever repaired the damage fully.

>

> thanks for reading,

> julie

>

> > > > >

> > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND

HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> > > > >

> > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > > > >

> > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Holly,I don't think the new DSM 5 says that--we were just wondering/hoping if

the changes in it will lead to stronger action to remove children from the

" care " of PD parents.

You've done so much to educate yourself,you can be a great source of

validation for your siblings later when they need it and I have no doubt that

will be very helpful to them.

> >

> > Yeah,Annie,that woman appeared to feel no remorse whatsoever.And who knows

if that was the only time she'd done something like that--it seems more likely

it was just the only time she got caught.Unfortunately,what she learned about

getting caught was that there wouldn't be any serious consequences to *her*.

> >

> > I think cases like this demonstrate what you were saying about the new

DSM 5--that the diagnosis of a severe PD should signal that the individual is

dangerous to children and could cause them great harm,as much as an unmonitored

pedophile.

> >

> > I was reading about a working diagnosis that's being used in the UK

with young violent offenders: Emerging Severe Personality Disorder.Due to some

extreme cases there of kids harming other kids there is a working group of

professionals who are trying to come up with a treatment plan for kids who

qualify for a diagnosis of ESPD--however it's not yet known if treatment will

actually work enough for these kids to go on to have productive,non-offending

lives outside of the juvenile detention center.It will be interesting to see if

they do come up with something that works in most cases.I looked it up on the

internet but there isn't much info about it.But the articles I read about the

specific cases/crimes that were in the news mention that the diagnosis (and

assumption of definite dangerousness to society on the part of these kids) is

based on *personality disorder* as an emerging " functional " construct.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thank you so much . I can't tell you even to this day how hard it is

to share what happened to me and to wait....wait to see if anyone cares, anyone

says it was wrong. There have been quite a few times even as an adult that has

not happened, that it's been brushed off with a " well kids are mean, uh so where

are we going for dinner? " type thing. I can tell you really get it from the

inside out using this dark side of others to your advantage and protection as a

kid. It sounds like you are a reincarnated military general! I am in awe of

what you accomplished with your army, that you could create and control an army

in sixth grade is amazing to me.

I like to think I was one of those kind gentle souls you said most bullied kids

seemed to be. That experience did inject a lot of darkness in me that I

struggle with to this day. On the one hand I have a lot of compassion for

people, animals, plants but on the other there are times when misanthropy over

comes me and I don't want to be human at all. People like to quote that what

doesn't kill them makes them stronger saying, but sometimes it can damage a

person instead. I am mildly psychic and this ability woke up in me shortly

before that time period, so I was actually able to feel what was going on inside

my tormentors and know that they took pleasure in it. Kind of hard to " just

ignore " that as the guidance counselor blithely told me to do.

I don't understand this strange species we are with such capacity for love and

creation and also cruelty and destruction. I bet you've read about the Stanley

Milgram prison experiments - it's hard to reconcile that with the good side.

Yet the good side is real and all around us, and I try to remember that also.

But yes you are right this is a big existential issue for me - most definitely.

Thanks for caring,

> >

> > I think that's awesome that you were able to get back at the bully

like that for the poor girl. Sounds like you were a kick ass kid One time I

did stand up for a friend who people were bullying for coughing (she had

pneumonia) I felt like a mother lion! Somehow it was easier to summon up the

strength to defend someone else.

> >

> > I'm puzzled too why the adults don't act. There were many teachers that

saw what was happening to me. I even requested seating changes to sit farther

away from certain people - which they granted. But no one ever contacted my

nada (that I know of) and when I told her what was happening finally she never

offered to talk to anyone. She was willing to let me change schools if I

wanted, but not to take any action on her part. For about one school year I

was regularly called ugly, a slut, disgusting, had my stuff stolen and ripped

up, gum stuck in my hair, people calling names out at me every time I walked

down a hallway. The first time I heard the words " I love you " from a non-family

member it was as a joke played out in front dozens of kids. I played sick a lot,

got out of school as much as I could that year. But no one not my nada, the

doctor who couldn't find anything wrong with me, not my grandparents who I

stayed with for weeks ever sat me down to ask...was okay? what was happening

for me? After that year I lost faith in every person in my life and I'm not

sure that I've ever repaired the damage fully.

> >

> > thanks for reading,

> > julie

> >

>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the

Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which

you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

,I can relate.I've had people sort of dismiss some of my experiences as

irrelevent to the here and now because they just don't understand the " echo

effect " of trauma--and I'll say again that what you endured was most definitely

*wrong*.To tell you to " just ignore them " was an awesomely bad bit of

" advice " .Did you go to that guidance counselor seeking assistance? Some guidance

he offered.

I think you *are* a kind gentle soul,that comes through in your

posts.Being able to feel that your tormentors took pleasure in hurting you is

soul destroying.I know that feeling myself.It's a testament to the strength of

your spirit that you aren't simply a misanthrope--many people would be who had

experienced (and felt) so much of the baser side of human nature as you

did.Nietzsche also said, " If you gaze into the abyss long enough,the abyss gazes

back into you " and I think that people who have had to gaze into the abyss often

struggle with the abyss--I know that my own moments of feeling misanthropic are

due to having to wrestle with meaning,as in asking myself why,and receiving no

answer.Or with having to know what I know about life.

I'm familiar with the Milgram experiments and they're a good example of

what I was saying about an unexamined reliance on authority.Yet there are

examples of people who refused to mindlessly obey orders and listened instead to

the dictates of their own conscience.There is both bad and good in the world

although the difference isn't always apparent or is too apparent--and with human

beings often the blind are leading the blind.When I am struggling with my own

despair I remind myself that there is still the " good deed that shines in a

naughty world " .Somewhere.

Take care,

>

> Thank you so much . I can't tell you even to this day how hard it is

to share what happened to me and to wait....wait to see if anyone cares, anyone

says it was wrong. There have been quite a few times even as an adult that has

not happened, that it's been brushed off with a " well kids are mean, uh so where

are we going for dinner? " type thing. I can tell you really get it from the

inside out using this dark side of others to your advantage and protection as a

kid. It sounds like you are a reincarnated military general! I am in awe of

what you accomplished with your army, that you could create and control an army

in sixth grade is amazing to me.

>

> I like to think I was one of those kind gentle souls you said most bullied

kids seemed to be. That experience did inject a lot of darkness in me that I

struggle with to this day. On the one hand I have a lot of compassion for

people, animals, plants but on the other there are times when misanthropy over

comes me and I don't want to be human at all. People like to quote that what

doesn't kill them makes them stronger saying, but sometimes it can damage a

person instead. I am mildly psychic and this ability woke up in me shortly

before that time period, so I was actually able to feel what was going on inside

my tormentors and know that they took pleasure in it. Kind of hard to " just

ignore " that as the guidance counselor blithely told me to do.

>

> I don't understand this strange species we are with such capacity for love and

creation and also cruelty and destruction. I bet you've read about the Stanley

Milgram prison experiments - it's hard to reconcile that with the good side.

Yet the good side is real and all around us, and I try to remember that also.

But yes you are right this is a big existential issue for me - most definitely.

>

> Thanks for caring,

>

> >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the

Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which

you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Thanks , crazy after all these years but yes it really helps to hear

you say it was " wrong " . I guess I felt like the whole world around me

sanctioned it at the time and I was the only one who thought it was wrong. Oh

yes the guidance counselor was useless - I went specifically for help with the

bullying. I also spoke to more than one of my teachers who also were willing to

do nothing other than change where I sat which I was pathetically grateful for.

That Nietzsche quote always gives me a chill. I stared in two directions down

into the abyss and up to God. Without my faith which developed spontaneously

when I was pre-school age - nada did not encourage it - I'm not sure what would

have happened very likely suicide.

You know I often think about what a miracle it is that all of us are here on

this board. Most of us growing up with nowhere to turn raised by at least one

crazy parent, no way out. No buffer or protection against the outer world and

inner family world of dysfunction. Really I think we should give ourselves

credit every day that we aren't criminals or dead. There's a cheery thought.

> >

> > Thank you so much . I can't tell you even to this day how hard it

is to share what happened to me and to wait....wait to see if anyone cares,

anyone says it was wrong. There have been quite a few times even as an adult

that has not happened, that it's been brushed off with a " well kids are mean, uh

so where are we going for dinner? " type thing. I can tell you really get it

from the inside out using this dark side of others to your advantage and

protection as a kid. It sounds like you are a reincarnated military general!

I am in awe of what you accomplished with your army, that you could create and

control an army in sixth grade is amazing to me.

> >

> > I like to think I was one of those kind gentle souls you said most bullied

kids seemed to be. That experience did inject a lot of darkness in me that I

struggle with to this day. On the one hand I have a lot of compassion for

people, animals, plants but on the other there are times when misanthropy over

comes me and I don't want to be human at all. People like to quote that what

doesn't kill them makes them stronger saying, but sometimes it can damage a

person instead. I am mildly psychic and this ability woke up in me shortly

before that time period, so I was actually able to feel what was going on inside

my tormentors and know that they took pleasure in it. Kind of hard to " just

ignore " that as the guidance counselor blithely told me to do.

> >

> > I don't understand this strange species we are with such capacity for love

and creation and also cruelty and destruction. I bet you've read about the

Stanley Milgram prison experiments - it's hard to reconcile that with the good

side. Yet the good side is real and all around us, and I try to remember that

also. But yes you are right this is a big existential issue for me - most

definitely.

> >

> > Thanks for caring,

> >

>

> > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the

Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which

you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and

author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

That is a good perspective! It's a miracle that we're all here, helping each

other out. I really wish I had a support group when I was younger and still

living with my family. I probably got a bit of a double-whammy because I was

homeschooled. For a while, it was just mom and us kids, and that was normal

until Dad came home from work, and then that was the stress time. Then he got a

job where he could work from home most of the time, and it went all downhill

from there. That's why I feel so sad for my siblings!

The scary thing is that my dad is writing and wanting to publish a second book

(his first one was about homeschooling in high school) about showing proper

leadership for your kids. Talk about YIKES!

> > >

> > > Thank you so much . I can't tell you even to this day how hard

it is to share what happened to me and to wait....wait to see if anyone cares,

anyone says it was wrong. There have been quite a few times even as an adult

that has not happened, that it's been brushed off with a " well kids are mean, uh

so where are we going for dinner? " type thing. I can tell you really get it

from the inside out using this dark side of others to your advantage and

protection as a kid. It sounds like you are a reincarnated military general!

I am in awe of what you accomplished with your army, that you could create and

control an army in sixth grade is amazing to me.

> > >

> > > I like to think I was one of those kind gentle souls you said most bullied

kids seemed to be. That experience did inject a lot of darkness in me that I

struggle with to this day. On the one hand I have a lot of compassion for

people, animals, plants but on the other there are times when misanthropy over

comes me and I don't want to be human at all. People like to quote that what

doesn't kill them makes them stronger saying, but sometimes it can damage a

person instead. I am mildly psychic and this ability woke up in me shortly

before that time period, so I was actually able to feel what was going on inside

my tormentors and know that they took pleasure in it. Kind of hard to " just

ignore " that as the guidance counselor blithely told me to do.

> > >

> > > I don't understand this strange species we are with such capacity for love

and creation and also cruelty and destruction. I bet you've read about the

Stanley Milgram prison experiments - it's hard to reconcile that with the good

side. Yet the good side is real and all around us, and I try to remember that

also. But yes you are right this is a big existential issue for me - most

definitely.

> > >

> > > Thanks for caring,

> > >

> >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

@ SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the

Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which

you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

This in and of itself feels validating for me. I do question a lot of my

issues and try to fit them in little boxes of different diagnoses. I

definitely think my mother had more than one diagnosis. She was phobic, but

only

when it suited her for attention and she, without a doubt, had a textbook

case of BPD. My therapist said I escaped it because I have a dissociative

disorder, but I'm not really sure it's any better.

I feel so sad when I look back on my childhood. I was not normal in any

way, shape, or form, and I cannot understand why there were NO adults around

to protect me. It makes me feel like I wasn't worth saving.

My aunt (who married my uncle when I was 8 and she was 23), recently told

me to STOP rehashing my childhood and MOVE on. If I could have slapped her

through the phone, I would have. If I was able to stop rehashing it, I would

have a long time ago.

But that brings me to a question................when is it time to stop

rehashing it and move on? Because I haven't reached that point yet. I have

stopped the cycle, but I have not moved past it.

[Guest guest]

,I respectfully say to you that it's not crazy at all to need to hear that

it was wrong--it's normal!!!!

And I will add that I don't think it was " wrong " --I think it was

WRONG.And who in the world could blame you for feeling like the whole world

around you sanctioned it.It did.

I've been working on this very topic with my therapist lately,the trauma

of my abuse being sanctioned through inaction by the very people I went to for

help.I totally agree with you: your guidance counselor was useless.And your

teachers,too.There is what you hear someone like the guidance counselor say and

what it *feels* like they are really saying and if you take that to its both

logical AND absurd extreme,what he said sounds like: " Just ignore them.I think

you should enable them by ignoring them because you must somehow deserve it. "

And when you have someone who is basically playing ostrich but who is making you

feel like what is being done to you is no big deal,of course the first thing you

need to hear later when you decide to disclose this information is,THAT WAS

WRONG WHAT THEY DID TO YOU.

It shouldn't have happened.It should have been stopped.

When I was going over my own disclosures of abuse and the failure of

adults to act on my behalf with my therapist--and that the whole thing causes me

to feel so nihilistic at times in a generalized way towards humanity that I

can't let it go--she said:

" Consider for a moment that there WERE no mitigating circumstances,that

there IS no excuse for their failure to act.That they simply failed you.You

weren't to blame for chosing the wrong words when you disclosed or going to the

wrong person or hoping for assistance you didn't really deserve.And that their

inaction had little to do with you and much much more to do with them--and that

you have a right to be simply angry about it,unadulterated by any mitigating

circumstance whatsoever either on your side or on theirs.What happened to you is

simply wrong and that nobody you went to for help did anything to put a stop to

it is simply wrong... "

Right now I'm doing some radical immersion/exposure therapy by reading

about cases of child abuse/neglect/adults using children for their own purposes

and needs.I'm not suggesting this would help you the way it's helped me,but this

immersion therapy has helped me to come to a calmer more sober acceptance of

this *reality* being how it is.My therapist's point in suggesting I do this is

that when you are abused the essential reality of that gets denied by the wider

society--the reality of what it is and how you were failed gets pushed under the

rug and you and your reality go right under along with it.It's not that it isn't

real and it isn't dead wrong,it's that society prefers to engage itself in

delusions of transcendence/denial of the facts; that society sort of relegates

the survivor to the status of solitary truth-bearer where you are left to bear

the existence of horrible truths with no honest social support because nobody

else wants to accept that,well,this is what really happens and happened and this

is the reality of it.We live in a society that doesn't *want* to validate our

truth but that doesn't make it any less true.

I think it's awesome that you were able to develop a sense of faith on

your own as a pre-schooler.That says volumes about who you were as a person,to

do that without any outside support.You were reaching for the light from the

light that was there in *you*--and I think it *is* a cheery thought that we are

not criminals or dead.Not in the happy sappy way society often indulges in,but

as the true miracle of the human spirit that has had to gaze directly into the

abyss or in many directions of it like you said,and STILL has the courage to

dare to trust others with our deepest pain or to dare to want to love or to dare

to search for meaning...even with what we have known...Striving for goodness

isn't a sign of weakness but of strength--and above all we need to honor the

miracle of goodness we have maintained within ourselves,seemingly against the

odds.ly,we are not criminals or dead because we were better than that and

we always were,fluctuations in faith not withstanding.

We were orphaned by the world and by our FOOs,but here we are: we lived

through it and you're right,that's a miracle.It doesn't undo all the hurt and

all the wrong,but I think it says alot about US.

>

> Thanks , crazy after all these years but yes it really helps to hear

you say it was " wrong " . I guess I felt like the whole world around me

sanctioned it at the time and I was the only one who thought it was wrong. Oh

yes the guidance counselor was useless - I went specifically for help with the

bullying. I also spoke to more than one of my teachers who also were willing to

do nothing other than change where I sat which I was pathetically grateful for.

That Nietzsche quote always gives me a chill. I stared in two directions down

into the abyss and up to God. Without my faith which developed spontaneously

when I was pre-school age - nada did not encourage it - I'm not sure what would

have happened very likely suicide.

>

> You know I often think about what a miracle it is that all of us are here on

this board. Most of us growing up with nowhere to turn raised by at least one

crazy parent, no way out. No buffer or protection against the outer world and

inner family world of dysfunction. Really I think we should give ourselves

credit every day that we aren't criminals or dead. There's a cheery thought.

>

>

> > > > > > > > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

@ SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the

Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which

you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Really, really well put. Your explanation RE why society/culture/the

neighbors/teachers can be invalidating to the child victims of abuse makes sense

to me.

And RE survival, to me, the fact that those of us who post here are not either

dead or criminals is not just a blessing, it also has a lot to say about

individual differences: the ability to survive abusive parenting and other

adversities is very likely inherent to the individual.

What I mean by this is that some individuals must be born with more resilience

and without the handicap of specific temperamental factors

(hyper-emotional-sensitivity) or brain dysfunction (perhaps the parts of the

brain that regulate incoming and outgoing emotion just stop developing at a

certain early point) that allows that particular individual to overcome an

adverse, invalidating, life-threatening or toxic growing-up period and survive

it without becoming destructive and toxic themselves. We survivors sustain

damage to some degree for sure (some of the damage can be life-altering) but we

all survived, *and without developing Cluster B disorders.*

The more personal stories I read posted by those who suffered great abuse and

neglect in childhood (some at the hands of Cluster B parents) without " turning

into " Cluster Bs themselves, validates that theory for me.

That, plus reading the personal stories of bewildered and heart-broken parents

whose small child is evidencing bizarrely extreme, hostile, toxic (Cluster

behaviors for no discernable reason, particularly when these parents have other

children who are just regular happy and normal kids. (Such was the case with my

own mother, the only one of three sibs with a pd, and the only one in her rather

boringly normal extended family with a pd.)

It just seems so clear to me that it has to be something inherent to the

individual, something they are born with or acquire in some as-yet unknown way

(like in-utero exposure to chemicals, hormones, antibodies or bacteria, or some

recessive genetic program that shuts down the development of oxytocin receptors,

or some kind of traumatic brain injury that goes unrecognized either before,

during, or after birth, during the child's pre-verbal stage of development.)

Only continuing research will be able to figure out why Cluster B pds happen,

and I'm now betting there is more than one cause, and that in at least some

cases, a person is simply " born that way. "

-Annie

>

> ,I respectfully say to you that it's not crazy at all to need to hear

that it was wrong--it's normal!!!!

>

> And I will add that I don't think it was " wrong " --I think it was

WRONG.And who in the world could blame you for feeling like the whole world

around you sanctioned it.It did.

>

> I've been working on this very topic with my therapist lately,the

trauma of my abuse being sanctioned through inaction by the very people I went

to for help.I totally agree with you: your guidance counselor was useless.And

your teachers,too.There is what you hear someone like the guidance counselor say

and what it *feels* like they are really saying and if you take that to its both

logical AND absurd extreme,what he said sounds like: " Just ignore them.I think

you should enable them by ignoring them because you must somehow deserve it. "

And when you have someone who is basically playing ostrich but who is making you

feel like what is being done to you is no big deal,of course the first thing you

need to hear later when you decide to disclose this information is,THAT WAS

WRONG WHAT THEY DID TO YOU.

>

> It shouldn't have happened.It should have been stopped.

>

> When I was going over my own disclosures of abuse and the failure of

adults to act on my behalf with my therapist--and that the whole thing causes me

to feel so nihilistic at times in a generalized way towards humanity that I

can't let it go--she said:

>

> " Consider for a moment that there WERE no mitigating

circumstances,that there IS no excuse for their failure to act.That they simply

failed you.You weren't to blame for chosing the wrong words when you disclosed

or going to the wrong person or hoping for assistance you didn't really

deserve.And that their inaction had little to do with you and much much more to

do with them--and that you have a right to be simply angry about

it,unadulterated by any mitigating circumstance whatsoever either on your side

or on theirs.What happened to you is simply wrong and that nobody you went to

for help did anything to put a stop to it is simply wrong... "

>

> Right now I'm doing some radical immersion/exposure therapy by

reading about cases of child abuse/neglect/adults using children for their own

purposes and needs.I'm not suggesting this would help you the way it's helped

me,but this immersion therapy has helped me to come to a calmer more sober

acceptance of this *reality* being how it is.My therapist's point in suggesting

I do this is that when you are abused the essential reality of that gets denied

by the wider society--the reality of what it is and how you were failed gets

pushed under the rug and you and your reality go right under along with it.It's

not that it isn't real and it isn't dead wrong,it's that society prefers to

engage itself in delusions of transcendence/denial of the facts; that society

sort of relegates the survivor to the status of solitary truth-bearer where you

are left to bear the existence of horrible truths with no honest social support

because nobody else wants to accept that,well,this is what really happens and

happened and this is the reality of it.We live in a society that doesn't *want*

to validate our truth but that doesn't make it any less true.

>

> I think it's awesome that you were able to develop a sense of faith

on your own as a pre-schooler.That says volumes about who you were as a

person,to do that without any outside support.You were reaching for the light

from the light that was there in *you*--and I think it *is* a cheery thought

that we are not criminals or dead.Not in the happy sappy way society often

indulges in,but as the true miracle of the human spirit that has had to gaze

directly into the abyss or in many directions of it like you said,and STILL has

the courage to dare to trust others with our deepest pain or to dare to want to

love or to dare to search for meaning...even with what we have known...Striving

for goodness isn't a sign of weakness but of strength--and above all we need to

honor the miracle of goodness we have maintained within ourselves,seemingly

against the odds.ly,we are not criminals or dead because we were better

than that and we always were,fluctuations in faith not withstanding.

>

> We were orphaned by the world and by our FOOs,but here we are: we lived

through it and you're right,that's a miracle.It doesn't undo all the hurt and

all the wrong,but I think it says alot about US.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, it sounds like you're on the right path. That's great. Understanding

it's not your fault is definitely huge, I agree!!! I have to remind myself

of that every now again. And I also know about getting sucked back in

repeatedly...my therapist told me once and I completely understand this now

and it's my mantra... " never forget that borderlines can make YOU feel like

you're the crazy one. "

Amazing how they do that.

In a message dated 2/22/2010 4:39:28 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,

talexander73@... writes:

- I can only tell you how it's worked for me - finding out that my

mother's behavior was part of something that had a name,and that I wasn't the

only one, and that I wasn't crazy or bad for wanting to get away from her,

and that IT WASN'T ALL MY FAULT - that was huge. The big light switch

flipped on, and the more I read the more connections I made. At that point, a

lot of stuff that seemed insurmountable and was all tied up in my

rock-bottom self-esteem and self image - started to lighten up a bit. Every

once in a

while, I stumble onto some new truth or realization, and the FOG lifts a

little more - but then Nada will call me with some crisis or other, and I

feel myself getting sucked back in. So I don't think I'm " re-hashing " it all

- I am looking at my relationship with her (and its effect on my mind,

body, and soul) from a new viewpoint, illuminated by every new thing I learn.

Sometimes it's one step forward, two steps back - but progress is being

made. When we come upon all this new information, we have to re-define terms,

re-assess our memories and feelings. It takes some time to reexamine all

this stuff. I don't think it's a useless " re-hashing " unless you stay mired in

the same place and fail to use your new insight to move yourself toward a

healthier life. It's kind of a messy, muddy road, but at least it leads

somewhere! -

--- In _WTOAdultChildren1@WTOAdultChilWTO_

(mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ) , Hummingbird1298@, Humm

>

> This in and of itself feels validating for me. I do question a lot of my

> issues and try to fit them in little boxes of different diagnoses. I

> definitely think my mother had more than one diagnosis. She was phobic,

but only

> when it suited her for attention and she, without a doubt, had a

textbook

> case of BPD. My therapist said I escaped it because I have a

dissociative

> disorder, but I'm not really sure it's any better.

>

> I feel so sad when I look back on my childhood. I was not normal in any

> way, shape, or form, and I cannot understand why there were NO adults

around

> to protect me. It makes me feel like I wasn't worth saving.

>

> My aunt (who married my uncle when I was 8 and she was 23), recently

told

> me to STOP rehashing my childhood and MOVE on. If I could have slapped

her

> through the phone, I would have. If I was able to stop rehashing it, I

would

> have a long time ago.

>

> But that brings me to a question.... But But that brings me to a qu

> rehashing it and move on? Because I haven't reached that point yet. I

have

> stopped the cycle, but I have not moved past it.

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

[Guest guest]

- I can only tell you how it's worked for me - finding out that my

mother's behavior was part of something that had a name,and that I wasn't the

only one, and that I wasn't crazy or bad for wanting to get away from her, and

that IT WASN'T ALL MY FAULT - that was huge. The big light switch flipped on,

and the more I read the more connections I made. At that point, a lot of stuff

that seemed insurmountable and was all tied up in my rock-bottom self-esteem and

self image - started to lighten up a bit. Every once in a while, I stumble onto

some new truth or realization, and the FOG lifts a little more - but then Nada

will call me with some crisis or other, and I feel myself getting sucked back

in. So I don't think I'm " re-hashing " it all - I am looking at my relationship

with her (and its effect on my mind, body, and soul) from a new viewpoint,

illuminated by every new thing I learn. Sometimes it's one step forward, two

steps back - but progress is being made. When we come upon all this new

information, we have to re-define terms, re-assess our memories and feelings.

It takes some time to reexamine all this stuff. I don't think it's a useless

" re-hashing " unless you stay mired in the same place and fail to use your new

insight to move yourself toward a healthier life. It's kind of a messy, muddy

road, but at least it leads somewhere! -

>

> This in and of itself feels validating for me. I do question a lot of my

> issues and try to fit them in little boxes of different diagnoses. I

> definitely think my mother had more than one diagnosis. She was phobic, but

only

> when it suited her for attention and she, without a doubt, had a textbook

> case of BPD. My therapist said I escaped it because I have a dissociative

> disorder, but I'm not really sure it's any better.

>

> I feel so sad when I look back on my childhood. I was not normal in any

> way, shape, or form, and I cannot understand why there were NO adults around

> to protect me. It makes me feel like I wasn't worth saving.

>

> My aunt (who married my uncle when I was 8 and she was 23), recently told

> me to STOP rehashing my childhood and MOVE on. If I could have slapped her

> through the phone, I would have. If I was able to stop rehashing it, I would

> have a long time ago.

>

> But that brings me to a question................when is it time to stop

> rehashing it and move on? Because I haven't reached that point yet. I have

> stopped the cycle, but I have not moved past it.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I totally agree with everything you've said here,Annie.I'd also bet that

" Cluster B " has multiple causes--probably even an unfortunate sequence of

genetic/biological/physical events that result in an individual being " born that

way " .

I've been reading case after case of child abuse/neglect--and yes,they are

hard to read--but what I am seeing is that far from me and my own case being an

aberation that made little sense,I am part of a widespread societal problem that

has its own tragic reasons--and that only when we as a society wake up to the

fact that this is happening and why and what allows it to continue,can we ever

come up with solutions.Extreme child abuse cases that end in the death of the

child tend to be reported in a piecemeal,sensationalistic fashion in the media

like they're some sort of one-off horror show--the reality is that they are not;

they are happening all the time,every day.As are the cases of children who are

enduring horrors at home that never make the news because the child survives.We

need something of a Marshall Plan for abused children,which we don't have just

now,because the system as it is currently is not working.

Funny thing is,I started out in therapy a few months ago presenting

with severe Depersonalization Disorder as just one of the problems that was

plaguing me and in the past month since I've been reading these cases and taking

it all in as a reality construct (which also comprises MY reality) rather than

as some incomprehensible evil that swoops down periodically like a pox on

isolated children that can't be prevented,my symptoms of Depersonalization are

*gone*.It's thought to be usually a chronic disorder,but it has been weeks now

that I haven't felt depersonalized at all,like it has lifted.I think a big part

of what caused it in the first place was finding myself in the surreal situation

of me knowing what was real (really happening) and everyone else around me being

the ones who were in denial of REALITY and their being unreal about it making

*me* feel unreal.

Child abuse is a real,pervasive phenomenon and denial in its many forms

isn't going to make it go away.

>

> Really, really well put. Your explanation RE why society/culture/the

neighbors/teachers can be invalidating to the child victims of abuse makes sense

to me.

>

> And RE survival, to me, the fact that those of us who post here are not either

dead or criminals is not just a blessing, it also has a lot to say about

individual differences: the ability to survive abusive parenting and other

adversities is very likely inherent to the individual.

>

> What I mean by this is that some individuals must be born with more resilience

and without the handicap of specific temperamental factors

(hyper-emotional-sensitivity) or brain dysfunction (perhaps the parts of the

brain that regulate incoming and outgoing emotion just stop developing at a

certain early point) that allows that particular individual to overcome an

adverse, invalidating, life-threatening or toxic growing-up period and survive

it without becoming destructive and toxic themselves. We survivors sustain

damage to some degree for sure (some of the damage can be life-altering) but we

all survived, *and without developing Cluster B disorders.*

>

> The more personal stories I read posted by those who suffered great abuse and

neglect in childhood (some at the hands of Cluster B parents) without " turning

into " Cluster Bs themselves, validates that theory for me.

>

> That, plus reading the personal stories of bewildered and heart-broken parents

whose small child is evidencing bizarrely extreme, hostile, toxic (Cluster

behaviors for no discernable reason, particularly when these parents have other

children who are just regular happy and normal kids. (Such was the case with my

own mother, the only one of three sibs with a pd, and the only one in her rather

boringly normal extended family with a pd.)

>

> It just seems so clear to me that it has to be something inherent to the

individual, something they are born with or acquire in some as-yet unknown way

(like in-utero exposure to chemicals, hormones, antibodies or bacteria, or some

recessive genetic program that shuts down the development of oxytocin receptors,

or some kind of traumatic brain injury that goes unrecognized either before,

during, or after birth, during the child's pre-verbal stage of development.)

>

> Only continuing research will be able to figure out why Cluster B pds happen,

and I'm now betting there is more than one cause, and that in at least some

cases, a person is simply " born that way. "

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

, I think that is just wonderful that your depersonalization symptoms

are gone! That is just freaking great! It really is so validating and healing

to take in the knowledge that " its not just me " although it is genuinely tragic

that severe child abuse is so pervasive in our society. You're right, we only

hear about the most over-the-top severe cases in the news, but those are just

the tiny tip of a gigantic iceberg, I'm afraid.

I think what its going to take is for more neighbors to decide that they are

willing to be " nosy. " We're such a fiercely freedom-loving, privacy-loving and

individual-rights-defending society, and that's really good, but only to the

point where freedom and privacy are not used to commit crimes such as child

abuse. Allowing child abuse go deliberately ignored and unreported out of a

feeling that " That's not my business " is part of the problem.

I think things won't change until most people feel that " If a child is being

systematically brutalized, tortured, raped or neglected in my neighborhood, it

IS my business. "

-Annie

> >

> > Really, really well put. Your explanation RE why society/culture/the

neighbors/teachers can be invalidating to the child victims of abuse makes sense

to me.

> >

> > And RE survival, to me, the fact that those of us who post here are not

either dead or criminals is not just a blessing, it also has a lot to say about

individual differences: the ability to survive abusive parenting and other

adversities is very likely inherent to the individual.

> >

> > What I mean by this is that some individuals must be born with more

resilience and without the handicap of specific temperamental factors

(hyper-emotional-sensitivity) or brain dysfunction (perhaps the parts of the

brain that regulate incoming and outgoing emotion just stop developing at a

certain early point) that allows that particular individual to overcome an

adverse, invalidating, life-threatening or toxic growing-up period and survive

it without becoming destructive and toxic themselves. We survivors sustain

damage to some degree for sure (some of the damage can be life-altering) but we

all survived, *and without developing Cluster B disorders.*

> >

> > The more personal stories I read posted by those who suffered great abuse

and neglect in childhood (some at the hands of Cluster B parents) without

" turning into " Cluster Bs themselves, validates that theory for me.

> >

> > That, plus reading the personal stories of bewildered and heart-broken

parents whose small child is evidencing bizarrely extreme, hostile, toxic

(Cluster behaviors for no discernable reason, particularly when these parents

have other children who are just regular happy and normal kids. (Such was the

case with my own mother, the only one of three sibs with a pd, and the only one

in her rather boringly normal extended family with a pd.)

> >

> > It just seems so clear to me that it has to be something inherent to the

individual, something they are born with or acquire in some as-yet unknown way

(like in-utero exposure to chemicals, hormones, antibodies or bacteria, or some

recessive genetic program that shuts down the development of oxytocin receptors,

or some kind of traumatic brain injury that goes unrecognized either before,

during, or after birth, during the child's pre-verbal stage of development.)

> >

> > Only continuing research will be able to figure out why Cluster B pds

happen, and I'm now betting there is more than one cause, and that in at least

some cases, a person is simply " born that way. "

> >

> > -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

>>I've been working on this very topic with my therapist lately,the trauma of my

abuse being sanctioned through inaction by the very people I went to for help<<

that gave me chills...that is one of the subjects my therapist and I have been

working on, too, along with how did people not notice?

The posts on this have been really really helpful.

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: stalking bpd-ers

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Monday, February 22, 2010, 4:03 PM

> Really, really well put.  Your

> explanation RE why society/culture/the neighbors/teachers

> can be invalidating to the child victims of abuse makes

> sense to me. 

>

> And RE survival, to me, the fact that those of us who post

> here are not either dead or criminals is not just a

> blessing, it also has a lot to say about individual

> differences: the ability to survive abusive parenting and

> other adversities is very likely inherent to the

> individual.

>

> What I mean by this is that some individuals must be born

> with more resilience and without the handicap of specific

> temperamental factors (hyper-emotional-sensitivity) or brain

> dysfunction (perhaps the parts of the brain that regulate

> incoming and outgoing emotion just stop developing at a

> certain early point) that allows that particular individual

> to overcome an adverse, invalidating, life-threatening or

> toxic growing-up period and survive it without becoming

> destructive and toxic themselves.  We survivors sustain

> damage to some degree for sure (some of the damage can be

> life-altering) but we all survived, *and without developing

> Cluster B disorders.*   

>

> The more personal stories I read posted by those who

> suffered great abuse and neglect in childhood (some at the

> hands of Cluster B parents) without " turning into " Cluster

> Bs themselves, validates that theory for me.

>

> That, plus reading the personal stories of bewildered and

> heart-broken parents whose small child is evidencing

> bizarrely extreme, hostile, toxic (Cluster behaviors for

> no discernable reason, particularly when these parents have

> other children who are just regular happy and normal

> kids.  (Such was the case with my own mother, the only

> one of three sibs with a pd, and the only one in her rather

> boringly normal extended family with a pd.)

>

> It just seems so clear to me that it has to be something

> inherent to the individual, something they are born with or

> acquire in some as-yet unknown way (like in-utero exposure

> to chemicals, hormones, antibodies or bacteria, or some

> recessive genetic program that shuts down the development of

> oxytocin receptors, or some kind of traumatic brain injury

> that goes unrecognized either before, during, or after

> birth, during the child's pre-verbal stage of development.)

>

> Only continuing research will be able to figure out why

> Cluster B pds happen, and I'm now betting there is more than

> one cause, and that in at least some cases, a person is

> simply " born that way. "

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > ,I respectfully say to you that it's not crazy at

> all to need to hear that it was wrong--it's normal!!!!

> >

> >         And I will add

> that I don't think it was " wrong " --I think it was WRONG.And

> who in the world could blame you for feeling like the whole

> world around you sanctioned it.It did.

> >

> >         I've been

> working on this very topic with my therapist lately,the

> trauma of my abuse being sanctioned through inaction by the

> very people I went to for help.I totally agree with you:

> your guidance counselor was useless.And your

> teachers,too.There is what you hear someone like the

> guidance counselor say and what it *feels* like they are

> really saying and if you take that to its both logical AND

> absurd extreme,what he said sounds like: " Just ignore them.I

> think you should enable them by ignoring them because you

> must somehow deserve it. " And when you have someone who is

> basically playing ostrich but who is making you feel like

> what is being done to you is no big deal,of course the first

> thing you need to hear later when you decide to disclose

> this information is,THAT WAS WRONG WHAT THEY DID TO YOU.

> >

> >         It shouldn't

> have happened.It should have been stopped.

> >

> >         When I was going

> over my own disclosures of abuse and the failure of adults

> to act on my behalf with my therapist--and that the whole

> thing causes me to feel so nihilistic at times in a

> generalized way towards humanity that I can't let it go--she

> said:

> >

> >          " Consider for a

> moment that there WERE no mitigating circumstances,that

> there IS no excuse for their failure to act.That they simply

> failed you.You weren't to blame for chosing the wrong words

> when you disclosed or going to the wrong person or hoping

> for assistance you didn't really deserve.And that their

> inaction had little to do with you and much much more to do

> with them--and that you have a right to be simply angry

> about it,unadulterated by any mitigating circumstance

> whatsoever either on your side or on theirs.What happened to

> you is simply wrong and that nobody you went to for help did

> anything to put a stop to it is simply wrong... "

> >

> >          Right now I'm doing

> some radical immersion/exposure therapy by reading about

> cases of child abuse/neglect/adults using children for their

> own purposes and needs.I'm not suggesting this would help

> you the way it's helped me,but this immersion therapy has

> helped me to come to a calmer more sober acceptance of this

> *reality* being how it is.My therapist's point in suggesting

> I do this is that when you are abused the essential reality

> of that gets denied by the wider society--the reality of

> what it is and how you were failed gets pushed under the rug

> and you and your reality go right under along with it.It's

> not that it isn't real and it isn't dead wrong,it's that

> society prefers to engage itself in delusions of

> transcendence/denial of the facts; that society sort of

> relegates the survivor to the status of solitary

> truth-bearer where you are left to bear the existence of

> horrible truths with no honest social support because nobody

> else wants to accept that,well,this is what really happens

> and happened and this is the reality of it.We live in a

> society that doesn't *want* to validate our truth but that

> doesn't make it any less true.

> >

> >          I think it's awesome

> that you were able to develop a sense of faith on your own

> as a pre-schooler.That says volumes about who you were as a

> person,to do that without any outside support.You were

> reaching for the light from the light that was there in

> *you*--and I think it *is* a cheery thought that we are not

> criminals or dead.Not in the happy sappy way society often

> indulges in,but as the true miracle of the human spirit that

> has had to gaze directly into the abyss or in many

> directions of it like you said,and STILL has the courage to

> dare to trust others with our deepest pain or to dare to

> want to love or to dare to search for meaning...even with

> what we have known...Striving for goodness isn't a sign of

> weakness but of strength--and above all we need to honor the

> miracle of goodness we have maintained within

> ourselves,seemingly against the odds.ly,we are not

> criminals or dead because we were better than that and we

> always were,fluctuations in faith not withstanding.

> >

> >      We were orphaned by the world and

> by our FOOs,but here we are: we lived through it and you're

> right,that's a miracle.It doesn't undo all the hurt and all

> the wrong,but I think it says alot about US.

> >

> >       

> >

>

>

>

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