Re: grief

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Sigh. Sad story. I would have done the exact same thing as you--shhhshing your

mom in just the same way to preserve the peacefulness of the moment.

My overwhelming sense after reading your post is wanting to send a big hug your

way and say: please be gentle with yourself. I feel like you did the best you

could--you're doing the very best you can. Maybe you're not at that place with

your mom yet. But you're doing the best you can, you're working on healing the

damage, you're consciously trying to get to a different place with your mom, and

you're [hopefully] not trying to hurt anyone in the process--which is probably

more than your mom can say.

Sounds like you are grieving on at least a couple different levels--and maybe

even a couple different points in time--namely the present state of your

relationship with your mom, and also the past. So two thoughts on that: (1)

please try to accept and forgive your past self; you did the best you could

under the circumstances [my god, you lost a sister; you couldn't also be

expected to be taking the high road on BP crap too]. and (2) hmmm, turns out

there isn't a 2! I don't know much about processing grief, but I can say

this: I've been recently coming to grips with the recognition of several

losses I didn't even know I had: mourning the childhood I should have but never

had; mourning the mother I never had; mourning the lack of unconditional love;

mourning the loss of my sister's childhood...oh it goes on and you can fill in

the blanks.

But I think the only way through it is through it. My teacher says: let your

negative emotions come--anger, grief, etc. And cradle them gently like a baby,

listen to them, comfort them; take good care of them. And like a crying child,

when you acknowledge them and take good care of them, they will stop crying and

move on. [a poor paraphrase on my part--he is much more eloquent. Hopefully it

conveys the spirit of it.]

I was also thinking: they say that people choose when to die--some people prefer

to die alone, some hang on, defying medical science, for just the right person

to be there. I hope this doesn't come across as coarse, but it seems like a

gift (and testimony to what you/your energy meant to your sister) to have been

there when your sister passed away. It must be really hard losing one of the

key eyewitnesses to your mom's behavior. I recently referred to my sister as my

" sister in arms " , because we had been through the war of nada together. I'm

getting teary just thinking about the prospect of losing her--and we haven't

really been all that close, as you can tell from my posts. I'm so sorry for

your loss.

Sending you a great big hug. And may we all forgive our past and current

selves, and take good care of ourselves.

-

>

> Hi,

> I am having a hard time with grieving; for some reason I cannot seem to find a

group around here even though it's a populated area. But what can I do but move

along and cry when it comes and try to keep from getting into that place of not

doing anything at all. It's weird, at a time when I feel I am ready to open

doors of new opportunity, I am paralyzed by these feelings.

> I was thinking of the moment when my sister died. I mentioned this before. I

watched her take her last breath; very peaceful, but immediately she had fluid

come from her mouth and so I lost the moment and tried to clean her so my mom

and my niece would not be upset. My mom came up behind me not knowing had

passed and when I told her she was gone, my mom started, I don't know, sobbing,

making noise, and I guess I wanted peacefulness. So I said: shhhh. Not mean.

And my mom got one of those 'tones' " don't shush me! " . In some ways, my sister

would say to me: that figures. And my mom collapsed in the chair; I had to make

sure she didn't fall (her feet and legs are bad).

>

> Anyway, my point is not all that, but that this mental condition of hers,

conditioned me this way and it has robbed so much from not just me but her. We

couldn't have a heartfelt moment, or me giving compassion (my sister probably

would have). And I find myself this evening missing that opportunity yet

knowing how excruciating it is to let her (mom) in and give her what she needs

Even a death of her daughter, my sister prevented me. (please send me one

more plate of guilt on my order!)

> ~patricia

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jackie,

Yes, it's only been a couple months; I think of Khasha (boyfriend) had not moved

at the exact same time I might

be doing better. At first I thought that maybe I would make it through this

time with a curious sort of *okay-ness* but the past three weeks I've been

hurting pretty bad.

It is so odd that my mom does not even ask how I am doing; so firmly in her mind

I am the one who has it together (??) She has no idea how I struggle though and

her aches and pains are the dominant ones. The other thing is that she has my

sister's estranged husband living there, which is pretty much necessary because

of my niece. Pretty soon my other niece and her boyfriend will be arriving to

live there. My mom hates it when I get mad at Tim (the husband of sis). I get

why because she is dependent on him. But she won't allow me to have my feelings

about it.

She has her family around her and so she is able to keep her devastation at bay;

and I am not because there is no one around me (except my son half the week).

And this is how I suppose she will live things out for herself. I know I should

not, cannot expect anything from her.

I just sometimes don't know how my life got this way....so alone and isolated.

Like the timing of things....

But that is how it goes...

Thanks Jackie,

~patricia

Re: grief

I wouldn't worry about your nada, ! You just need to take care of

yourself...I've had 2 brothers die, and both times nada said I should have

been more comforting and supportive of her...I asked who was supportive of

me ? I lost 2 brothers... and she just looked at me like I was speaking a

foreign language !! And, ...sometimes it does come down to

this...you just need to force yourself to do things...to get on with your

life..but I think in your case, it's not been very long...like Thanksgiving

??

Jackie

Hi,

I am having a hard time with grieving; for some reason I cannot seem to find

a group around here even though it's a populated area. But what can I do

but move along and cry when it comes and try to keep from getting into that

place of not doing anything at all. It's weird, at a time when I feel I am

ready to open doors of new opportunity, I am paralyzed by these feelings.

I was thinking of the moment when my sister died. I mentioned this before.

I watched her take her last breath; very peaceful, but immediately she had

fluid come from her mouth and so I lost the moment and tried to clean her so

my mom and my niece would not be upset. My mom came up behind me not

knowing had passed and when I told her she was gone, my mom started, I

don't know, sobbing, making noise, and I guess I wanted peacefulness. So I

said: shhhh. Not mean. And my mom got one of those 'tones' " don't shush

me! " . In some ways, my sister would say to me: that figures. And my mom

collapsed in the chair; I had to make sure she didn't fall (her feet and

legs are bad).

Anyway, my point is not all that, but that this mental condition of hers,

conditioned me this way and it has robbed so much from not just me but her.

We couldn't have a heartfelt moment, or me giving compassion (my sister

probably would have). And I find myself this evening missing that

opportunity yet knowing how excruciating it is to let her (mom) in and give

her what she needs Even a death of her daughter, my sister prevented me.

(please send me one more plate of guilt on my order!)

~patricia

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I think what it is, is that I sometimes I play back the scene in my head and

yesterday I was feeling bad overall about how some people seem to have these

dying scenes where everyone says goodbye and there is this peaceful, yet sad

feeling. And in our case, it was messed up. That day, I think that everyone

was sort of thinking that was just sleeping. I think it was denial. She

was heavy breathing, like sighing. I realized the truth and sat with her most

of the day. People would pop in and I would leave the girls alone with their

mom; her eyes were blank, open. And I played Neil Young for her, and just sat

there. I understand my mom's reaction, but it disrupted me and I just got

tangled up in reliving that moment; sad, compassion, frustration. To me it

feels like trauma...especially since I also watched my dad die recently. My

sister had said some things while she was sick about being lonely, feeling like

she was dying (at a certain moment), I look just like dad did.

I just wish I had really heard what she was saying. It eats me up. I feel I

let her down.

Your experience with your father dying sounds like maybe you should have just

stayed in the room for awhile! It does sound like they spoiled the whole

solemnity of the time. God...what a drag these things.

I think what I meant is that the BPD stuff just wrecks every intense thing

because the person with it can't handle intensity unless it is her own throwing

it out of herself onto others.

That situation with your brother and the medications...I can just imagine how

frustrating that was; like you couldn't even get some rest. Ahh..the whole

thing is just unbelievable. The suffering of a person who is dying can be so

intense; I know that stays with me and sometimes just makes me crumple up

inside, outside....

You are right about the FOO causing this complicated grief; I got two cases of

that going on....and my boyfriend gone. It is very hard to find time and money

to fly across the country. And to communicate on the phone etc. No one is

really lightening my grief for me now; it was Khasha before (with my dad) but

he's too far away; what I liked is just laying down with him and sleeping with

him, being held. That helped me so much.

~ thank you for your compassion. Your articulation. It helps me. I

am listening to what everyone has said and going to try to be careful and gentle

with myself. I might go lay down even though it is only 4:00.

~patricia

Re: grief

,do you mean that what you wanted to be the sacredness of that moment

when your sister passed away got messed up and now your grief is sort of stuck?

It's so hard to give a BPD what they " need " without both feeling like

it's a choice between you or them and to feel like you've come up short no

matter what you do.And at a moment as intense and emotional as a sister

dying,you just shouldn't even have to find yourself between that BPD rock and a

hard place.

You wanted that moment to be peaceful,which is how it should have

been.You had just tried to clean up the fluid out of concern for your mother and

your niece--but your need for peacefulness was rightfully still there and you

had just watched your sister die.I was the only one there and I watched when my

father took his last breath and it's a moment and an experience feeling that's

almost impossible to put into words--and it's like it NEEDS to be

peaceful.Although you are focused on the one who is dying it's a traumatic

moment for the one who is living,at this really profound level that you almost

can't even access in the moment--the need for peacefulness is,I think,just as

profound.

After my father died I went out into the hallway to tell my brother

and sister in law that he was gone.Nada had stayed away.I said " He's gone "

feeling that profound sense I can't really describe.Because I had been there

with him when it happened.

Immediately,my sister in law started to carry on sobbing.An aide who

was walking by and had tended to fada heard me and started to cry and ran down

the hall to the nurses' station crying.My brother,who like me had been trained

to disown his own feelings,had little reaction except to go into automatic: he

took out his phone to call the funeral director.

And I was annoyed with my sister in law and the aide,even though I

understood their anguish.It was like they were spoiling what should have been

the solemn sacredness of the moment,like their bursting into tears so quickly

wasn't yet appropriate.

I think I understand your shushing of your nada--and that you did it

so gently says to me that you were indeed thinking of her,too just then.You

didn't tell her to stop it,but unfortunately since she has BPD,she interpreted

it that way.Is that what you mean,that the BPD was also imposing itself on the

moment,disrupting what should have been an exchange of compassion between

yourself and your mother? But how is that your fault in any way? It just

is--it's very very painful--but it just is.I don't think that in that moment you

were in a place to adjust automatically to your mother's sobbing and to comfort

her.Beyond the fact of the BPD,there is also the fact that the two of you were

in a different space: her coming into the room after the fact and you having

been there when your sister passed away.That's two very different

mental/spiritual spaces no matter what the relationship of the two people is.

After I went out into the hall and made the solemn announcement of

fada's passing it seemed like all kinds of people were going into his room: the

nurses,my sister in law and brother,the aides.There was all this carrying on and

I was still in that profound space.People were crying and I might have seemed

cold to them because I was still in that solemnity and was searching for the pen

I swore I'd left at his bedside--I had forgotten to write down the precise

moment of his last breath which I had intended to do but then forgot when it

happened.An aide reached out to hug me and I barely even noticed her,all I

wanted to do was find the pen and reverently record the time of death.Hugging

and crying did not seem properly reverential to me at that exact moment,it was

deeper than that.

And yet you were focused enough on her to make sure your nada didn't

fall--,you DID show her compassion.Not in the ideal way it might have

been but you did reach out to her from the very different space you were in and

you helped her.I don't think that your shushing caused her to collapse: BPDs

being as unpredictable as they are,the same thing or similar could have happened

if you had made a move to pull her into your arms--and again,you simply were not

in a space to do that at that exact moment.You were where you were and you had a

right to be there.You don't even have anything,really,to forgive yourself

for.The whole thing is just incredibly unfortunate and tragic on so many

levels,you have a complicated grief.Our grief when FOO is involved gets

complicated like this and makes it harder to process.

My brother and I weren't acting as a team when fada was dying,which

inhibited the natural flow of the process for me and compounded my

trauma/grief.Of course I tried to be the big sister with him because that was a

role that gave me some sense of goodness.And of course in that situation I

couldn't get it right.He had his issues and his own way of reacting to the whole

thing that was much more primitive and basic than mine.For example,I worked with

the nurses for two days to get fada's meds at the proper dosages to reduce his

suffering.I was exhausted from lack of sleep the day before he died and my

brother finally showed up at the hospice after I had called to tell him the end

was near.He brought a priest with him to annoint fada with holy water.It had

taken me and the nurses all that day to get his meds just right and he was

resting comfortably for the first time in days.It was very important that he be

given his meds on the schedule we had worked out because even a delay of an hour

meant it took them longer to kick in and he suffered.After the ritual with the

priest,I told my brother what time fada would need his meds next and that he had

to let the nurse on duty know because the shift was changing and it was a

weekend nurse who hadn't been on board with the new meds schedule.I had him

repeat this info back to me to make sure he understood and then I went home to

take a nap.

My brother called me when he was going to leave the hospice so I

could return and I asked him if fada had been given his meds at the appointed

time.He said, " Uh huh. "

When I got there fada was in agony again.I had the nurse show me his

chart and he hadn't been given his meds.My brother had allowed our father to

suffer for the sake of his own ego,simply because he didn't want to listen to me

or to believe that I could possibly have fada's best interests at heart.That

increased the horror I already felt about everything.And it made it harder to

just grieve.

I'm sharing this not to vent about me or to make a direct comparison

to what happened with you when your sister died,but because I think it's

illustrative of how the FOO can make you feel guilty or how your grief can get

stuck because it all gets so damned complicated.You want so much to do the right

thing and then for whatever particular reasons,it just doesn't turn out that

way.

And I have to wonder when I read your post,who was lightening *your*

grief? Who was helping *you*? Your boyfriend? Then that is how it should have

been--you also needed comfort and care.It was a difficult and terrible and sad

situation--you could not have been expected to be the perfect saint.You had

needs too.You have every right to honor that grief along with your own needs.You

also had a right to be tended to/to tend to what you needed in the moment.

I'm sorry you're hurting tonight...

>

> Hi,

> I am having a hard time with grieving; for some reason I cannot seem to find

a group around here even though it's a populated area. But what can I do but

move along and cry when it comes and try to keep from getting into that place of

not doing anything at all. It's weird, at a time when I feel I am ready to open

doors of new opportunity, I am paralyzed by these feelings.

> I was thinking of the moment when my sister died. I mentioned this before.

I watched her take her last breath; very peaceful, but immediately she had fluid

come from her mouth and so I lost the moment and tried to clean her so my mom

and my niece would not be upset. My mom came up behind me not knowing had

passed and when I told her she was gone, my mom started, I don't know, sobbing,

making noise, and I guess I wanted peacefulness. So I said: shhhh. Not mean.

And my mom got one of those 'tones' " don't shush me! " . In some ways, my sister

would say to me: that figures. And my mom collapsed in the chair; I had to make

sure she didn't fall (her feet and legs are bad).

>

> Anyway, my point is not all that, but that this mental condition of hers,

conditioned me this way and it has robbed so much from not just me but her. We

couldn't have a heartfelt moment, or me giving compassion (my sister probably

would have). And I find myself this evening missing that opportunity yet

knowing how excruciating it is to let her (mom) in and give her what she needs

Even a death of her daughter, my sister prevented me. (please send me one

more plate of guilt on my order!)

> ~patricia

>

>

[Guest guest]

yeah see, you've had a LOT of crap happen in a short time frame...

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

Yes, it's only been a couple months; I think of Khasha (boyfriend) had not

moved at the exact same time I might

be doing better. At first I thought that maybe I would make it through this

time with a curious sort of *okay-ness* but the past three weeks I've been

hurting pretty bad.

It is so odd that my mom does not even ask how I am doing; so firmly in her

mind I am the one who has it together (??) She has no idea how I struggle

though and her aches and pains are the dominant ones. The other thing is

that she has my sister's estranged husband living there, which is pretty

much necessary because of my niece. Pretty soon my other niece and her

boyfriend will be arriving to live there. My mom hates it when I get mad at

Tim (the husband of sis). I get why because she is dependent on him. But

she won't allow me to have my feelings about it.

She has her family around her and so she is able to keep her devastation at

bay; and I am not because there is no one around me (except my son half the

week). And this is how I suppose she will live things out for herself. I

know I should not, cannot expect anything from her.

I just sometimes don't know how my life got this way....so alone and

isolated. Like the timing of things....

But that is how it goes...

Thanks Jackie,

~patricia