Re: anyone remember?

[Guest guest]

My nada pulled some massive suicidal stuff about ten years ago. I was

living in a studio apartment. She had just been dumped by her boyfriend. She

had crazy witch lady hair and kept honking the horn in her car and

screaming. Pills were somehow involved. I was so freaked out. Should have

called the police, but was also worried sick about her. I called the Crisis

Line and they kept reminding me that if she did kill herself, it was her

choice. I think that was the best phone call I ever made.

My childhood was fucked up, but I think the worst of my trauma is from the

past ten years with her, between 24 & 34 years of age. The lingering effect

of that night still sits with me. Trauma sucks. I'm looking for a new

therapist so I can try to get on with my life.

I'm NC with her, but I still have the FOG. Like what if she dies? What if

she gets sick? Who will take care of her? And then I remember that she

made her bed, she's good at milking people, and is a fabulous martyr.

[Guest guest]

I understand..I dont like fighting, but I will if I think I have to...

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

I wrote this in my reply to ; but I am afraid of confrontation too. It

scares me and I avoid it

to my detriment. I don't want people mad at me and I fear that they

might be mad at me but not

tell me the truth... (another things that scares me)

~p

[Guest guest]

two of my siblings went the drugs/alcholol route..my brother never got over

it and died of a massive heart attack when he was 52...he was very thin,

and smoked and drank...my oldest sister drinks, but not as bad as he did...

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

I am sure you did pay dearly; I am sorry it was so difficult; I know these

things really get into

us deeply and affect our adult lives. My parents didn't really give us

curfews or ground us. Pretty

much we did what we want. My brother and I never really got into trouble,

though I smoked a lot of

pot, as did he. My sister rebelled and got into trouble at school and did

major drugs and drinking.

That whole time period affected her entire adult life. She got pregnant at

17 and she stopped doing

drugs then and began to raise children, but her life was still troubled with

addiction on and off.

Ultimately on.

~p

[Guest guest]

when the parents were visiting one time, I was around 40..I made home made

lasgane...and it was a little salty...my dad couldnt breath and we called

the ambulance...that was the diagnosis of his congestive heart failure.

Nada still says *I* caused it..and that dad is having some much trouble

with his heart because of that one slightly salty meal I made!! *I* know

thats not true..I know his heart problems come from a long line of family

heart problems, plus he smoked for most of his life.. he was over weight

and never exercised..but it still hurts when she says it's my fault

Jackie

Wow, Everything has always been my fault in my nada's view. But I finally

realize at 52 that is not the truth. After my daughter and I being the

subject of one of her rages in December, I vow that I will never subject

myself or my daughter (she's 21 and that was her first experience with her

like that) to that again. She has a safety plan that she uses when she

visits, but I am very minimal contact. Having made that decision and seeing

the situation with a fresh and healthy perspective, I feel happy and at ease

for the first time.

[Guest guest]

thats exactly right !!

Jackie

Oh yeah...or making too much noise or not moving fast enough or moving too

fast or chewing too loud or laughing too loud or not laughing in the right

moment or crying over something....it never ended.

[Guest guest]

oh, yes, your wording is SO much better !! I was never a bad child. I did

what I was told, was never in trouble at school or in the community...I had

lots of people who liked me.. I was the prefered babysitter over my sister

to the neighborhood kids..but nada saw me as the " bad child " and I hate

that term..your " not the prefered child " is so much nicer !!

Jackie

Hi ,

Okay, so birth order is irrelevant-or at least maybe not primary.

I think you're onto something--perhaps it's more related to the pigeonholing

of good child/no-good child. which terms, by the way, I think are kind of

misleading--they sent me down a wrong path when I first started reflecting

on them. I was taking them too literally, I think. I thought I was the

Good child--and I *was* the good child; I was the perfect child, but I was

not the Preferred Child wrt Nada. my sister, who was actually quite

not-good, was the Preferred Child, the golden child. My sister lied

consistently, was rebellious, sneaky, greedy, sloppy, kind of mean, really,

and in general, not Good. She was, however, nada's favorite. And, as I

think about it, she does, like your sister, share nada's temperament. So

yeah, I think you're right: that little tiny pearl of <some kind of>

validation is maybe what gave our sisters the strength and ability to stand

separately from our nadas and fight back.

I am so with you on confrontation avoidance and being bullied when I was

younger. I still sort of feel like I have an invisible target on me that

somehow projects " Bully Me " . I'm actively working on this because it's

gotten to be a serious impediment in my life. My natural predisposition is

to immediately believe someone else is right and I'm wrong--total pushover!

And we had the same dynamic where nada would have nothing of any

fighting--we were shushed. And yep, the underlying directive for me was:

whatever you do, don't waken the sleeping giant, The Rage. Were you shy as

a child? I was painfully shy; sister, not at all.

-l

[Guest guest]

How do you keep such a sane perspective when raised with and visited with so

much insanity? Did you believe that everything was your fault as a child and

then realize it was crazy when you got out into the world or did you always

kind of know it made no sense? No one should have to go through what you

did. You amaze me with your ability to see the absurd in your family

situations.

This story isn't funny. And yet, it's so outlandish that it almost is.

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of sleddog

Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:06 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Subject: Re: Re: anyone remember?

when the parents were visiting one time, I was around 40..I made home made

lasgane...and it was a little salty...my dad couldnt breath and we called

the ambulance...that was the diagnosis of his congestive heart failure.

Nada still says *I* caused it..and that dad is having some much trouble

with his heart because of that one slightly salty meal I made!! *I* know

thats not true..I know his heart problems come from a long line of family

heart problems, plus he smoked for most of his life.. he was over weight

and never exercised..but it still hurts when she says it's my fault

Jackie

[Guest guest]

I always kind of knew nada didn't make sense, and that everything wasn't my

fault when I hit about the 7th-8th grade. before that I did think it was

all my fault...I thought at the time if my lasagna caused congestive heart

failure, how come nada, hubby and I didn't have it ? How come the dogs

didn't have it ?? ...only dad got it..and gee, he's the one with heart

problems any how and he's the one who smoked...so I knew it wasn't caused by

my lasagna...just nadas nasty way of trying to make me feel bad !! But I

did learn not to add any salt to it because the tomato paste has plenty :-)

I know what you mean...all our stories are " funny " in a sad, twisted

way...because it's so unreal that this would really happen...unless you live

with mentally ill people LOL

Jackie

How do you keep such a sane perspective when raised with and visited with so

much insanity? Did you believe that everything was your fault as a child and

then realize it was crazy when you got out into the world or did you always

kind of know it made no sense? No one should have to go through what you

did. You amaze me with your ability to see the absurd in your family

situations.

This story isn't funny. And yet, it's so outlandish that it almost is.

[Guest guest]

Yea, ,

It was pretty horrible, and not the most horrible moment of a horrible

childhood. As many of us can relate, there are moments that stand out as

so horrible, but much of what we took for granted every day, others

would find truly awful.

One thing i urge you to wrap your arms around is this. You are not, and

never would be, responsible for another person taking their life. Oh, we

may have missed signs that would help us intervene and prevent it, once,

or twice, or several times. But the reality is a truly suicidal person

will commit suicide. And You. Cannot. Stop. Them. Period.

Furthermore, you are not responsible for the actions of any person

except yourself. You can influence, but not direct, others. And , as you

pointed out, after a while , it just gets old. Like the little boy who

cried " Wolf " , after a while you cry out and no one comes. So it is

with BP s. Sadly, about 10% of them will end their own lives. You can

only prevent it by doing what they want, ie give up your own life and

devote every moment to their needs.

In intervening with someone who is suicidal, we interupt the immediate

action, determine if there is intent, ability, means, and an active

plan, then follow up with counseling to help the person come to grips

with the emotions or events that make them consider suicide. For most

people, that is a great plan, and has good outlook for success.

Not, however, with a BP. How many of them agree to the follow up, or to

participate in therapy, for any of their insanity, hoarding,

relationships, depression, suicide, addictions, out of control sexual

behaviors, ( yea, we don t talk about that part of it on here much, but

likely we all have stories about how our nadas were inappropriate and

uncontrolled sexually, while condemning other family members for similar

activities, since that is often a part of their disorder.)

We , as the Hoover bait, the object of manipulation, intervene and

intervene to stop them from commtting suicide, over, and over, and over.

It didnt dawn on me till years later, but during my 9th grade year, my

nada would be at home alone all day, but then start her hysterics and

her daily ( for months!) " suicide attempts " as soon as I came in from

school. I was 14, so what did I know? I dutifully was Hoovered, and

took the knives or pills, and re assured her of my love once more, then

settled in for a nice peaceful evening. ( Yes, friends, that WAS

sarcasm. ) If she wanted to die, she would have made the attempt as

soon as I left for school.

It is , therefore, 90% manipulation, and 10% a successful attempt. But

in the process of ruining our lives, they play a dangerous game, because

there comes a point where we say, Enough, no more. F__ it, if you really

want to die, I m not going to stop you. I ll hate that, but I m NOT

going to spend the rest of my life stopping you. Get some help, or go in

the back yard so I don t have to clean up the mess in the house, but

that game is over.

And I say to all of us who hit that point, no guilt. We didnt cause it,

we couldnt fix it, and its not our fault or our responsiblity.

Brrr...I m so angry at all of them who put all of us through that, that

horror, and thinking if I dont do the right thing, my mother will die

and it will be my fault.

Doug

>

> Wow, what a horrible experience regarding your nada trying to crash

the car!

> What a surprise that she gave no thought to the life of the child also

in

> the car. Good on the doctors for finally doing something.

>

> After my nada's many threats of suicide, at one point it just got old.

You

> folks are probably the only ones who will understand taking the risk

to call

> their bluff. I was still living at home in my early twenties (The

> consequences for even thinking of moving were cruelly dramatic.) when

she

> pulled the last suicide scene. My role was to break down the bathroom

door

> and wrestle the .357 from her, while telling her how much I love her.

> Instead, I walked away. I thought, " Go ahead then. I'm not getting

shot. "

> She didn't follow through.

>

> Now, I wondered for years whether I took the right risk. I never told

anyone

> because I sound so horrible. Years later, my mother figure BP ex would

die

> of a self-inflicted gunshot wound while holed up in my house.

> Intellectually, I know I'm not responsible, especially since my ex

planned

> to kill me first. Yet I keep thinking I *should* feel responsible and

that I

> would have been responsible if my nada had killed herself. After all

of

> this, I still don't trust myself and wonder if others who don't know

the

> whole of both stories have the more correct opinion of my fault.

>

> B.

>

> _____

>

> From: WTOAdultChildren1

> [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of doug883@...

> Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:29 PM

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Subject: Re: anyone remember?

>

> My nada was very verbal and hystrionic about suicidal ideations. Once,

> when I was about 14, and she and my dad were in the process of

> splitting up, she left a confrontation with him, with me in the car,

and

> , screaming hysterically, pointed the car at a bridge abuttment and

> floored it. Of course, we were some distance from it, but at that

> moment I feared for my life and took the wheel and turned off the key.

>

> At this point, she screamed at me, in a high , shrill sound like a

dying

> animal, her face blood red, telling me NEVER to do that again, did I

> know how dangerous it was to grab the wheel when someone was driving a

> car? You could have got us killed! ( Now one who understands BPD will

> nod sadly, and say, uh huh, but for a 14 yo kid, aside from the

absolute

> terror of the moment, was the thought WTF? What did YOU just try to

do.

> )

>

> She used suicide attempts, always timed so that it was when it was

just

> her and her teen aged son around, so I had to wrestle knives away from

> her, or pills, or whatever was at hand, and then assure her of my love

> through snot bubbles and sobs. She did this for years, and always when

> it was just us around to witness it.

>

> I often wondered, what would happen if I called her bluff?

>

> I finally found out. About 6 years before her death, she pulled "

> nervous breakdown " at her Dr s office, crying uncontrollably, and

making

> suicidal ideations. They called me to come and take her to the

hospital,

> and the instant we were outside his office the crying ceased. Some

> nervous breakdown, huh?

>

> A few months later, she tried it again, and this time the Family

> Practicioner came into the room, and got her psychiatrist on the

phone,

> and they told her in view of her suicidal comments, unless she agreed

to

> go into the hospital, in the psych ward, they would do a mental

hygiene

> petition and have her committed. She was mad at them the rest of her

> life for that, but she went.

>

> And never mentioned suicide again.

>

> It took 30 years, though.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

~ your story is a " Wow " too. A .357? I don't understand what

you mean by: my mother figure BP ex. Is this your mother you are talking about?

Either way....and I know mere words don't correct the way your brain might

interpret

things, nothing like this is your *fault* . A miserable angry person can decide

to

torment someone even after that miserable angry person kills herself.

How could it be your fault?

I'm sorry you had to endure all this.

~patricia

Re: anyone remember?

My nada was very verbal and hystrionic about suicidal ideations. Once,

when I was about 14, and she and my dad were in the process of

splitting up, she left a confrontation with him, with me in the car, and

, screaming hysterically, pointed the car at a bridge abuttment and

floored it. Of course, we were some distance from it, but at that

moment I feared for my life and took the wheel and turned off the key.

At this point, she screamed at me, in a high , shrill sound like a dying

animal, her face blood red, telling me NEVER to do that again, did I

know how dangerous it was to grab the wheel when someone was driving a

car? You could have got us killed! ( Now one who understands BPD will

nod sadly, and say, uh huh, but for a 14 yo kid, aside from the absolute

terror of the moment, was the thought WTF? What did YOU just try to do.

)

She used suicide attempts, always timed so that it was when it was just

her and her teen aged son around, so I had to wrestle knives away from

her, or pills, or whatever was at hand, and then assure her of my love

through snot bubbles and sobs. She did this for years, and always when

it was just us around to witness it.

I often wondered, what would happen if I called her bluff?

I finally found out. About 6 years before her death, she pulled "

nervous breakdown " at her Dr s office, crying uncontrollably, and making

suicidal ideations. They called me to come and take her to the hospital,

and the instant we were outside his office the crying ceased. Some

nervous breakdown, huh?

A few months later, she tried it again, and this time the Family

Practicioner came into the room, and got her psychiatrist on the phone,

and they told her in view of her suicidal comments, unless she agreed to

go into the hospital, in the psych ward, they would do a mental hygiene

petition and have her committed. She was mad at them the rest of her

life for that, but she went.

And never mentioned suicide again.

It took 30 years, though.

Doug

[Guest guest]

I need to get better at confrontation and fighting. Sometimes

I think I should take up boxing, something really aggressive to feel

it in my body, and then hopefully in my mind and heart.

I always put myself aside. And then I know I have a victim mentality

that goes with it.

~patricia

Re: Re: anyone remember?

I understand..I dont like fighting, but I will if I think I have to...

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

I wrote this in my reply to ; but I am afraid of confrontation too. It

scares me and I avoid it

to my detriment. I don't want people mad at me and I fear that they

might be mad at me but not

tell me the truth... (another things that scares me)

~p

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline

Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you

can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Jackie~

Yeah this is the sad outcome of being raised in a 'mental' family.

It is so tragic. It breaks my heart.

~p

Re: Re: anyone remember?

two of my siblings went the drugs/alcholol route..my brother never got over

it and died of a massive heart attack when he was 52...he was very thin,

and smoked and drank...my oldest sister drinks, but not as bad as he did...

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

I am sure you did pay dearly; I am sorry it was so difficult; I know these

things really get into

us deeply and affect our adult lives. My parents didn't really give us

curfews or ground us. Pretty

much we did what we want. My brother and I never really got into trouble,

though I smoked a lot of

pot, as did he. My sister rebelled and got into trouble at school and did

major drugs and drinking.

That whole time period affected her entire adult life. She got pregnant at

17 and she stopped doing

drugs then and began to raise children, but her life was still troubled with

addiction on and off.

Ultimately on.

~p

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline

Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you

can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

Wow, you know your email just reminds me of how mixed up these nadas can make

our

lives. It's like our life is not our own, but just some kind of receptacle for

their whims.

I don't even think they do it on purpose, but it's like they have kids and think

they are

entitled to mess with our heads.

I hope you find a good therapist to help you move on with your life. And you

just do the

best you can, just always remember that. You are doing the best you can.

~patricia

RE: Re: anyone remember?

My nada pulled some massive suicidal stuff about ten years ago. I was

living in a studio apartment. She had just been dumped by her boyfriend. She

had crazy witch lady hair and kept honking the horn in her car and

screaming. Pills were somehow involved. I was so freaked out. Should have

called the police, but was also worried sick about her. I called the Crisis

Line and they kept reminding me that if she did kill herself, it was her

choice. I think that was the best phone call I ever made.

My childhood was fucked up, but I think the worst of my trauma is from the

past ten years with her, between 24 & 34 years of age. The lingering effect

of that night still sits with me. Trauma sucks. I'm looking for a new

therapist so I can try to get on with my life.

I'm NC with her, but I still have the FOG. Like what if she dies? What if

she gets sick? Who will take care of her? And then I remember that she

made her bed, she's good at milking people, and is a fabulous martyr.

[Guest guest]

Jackie~

this lasagna thing......is freaking crazy! God. I wish it would help you by me

saying: NOT YOUR FAULT. I just can't believe this stuff...and it's not like I

haven't experienced it for myself either!!

~patricia

Re: Re: anyone remember?

when the parents were visiting one time, I was around 40..I made home made

lasgane...and it was a little salty...my dad couldnt breath and we called

the ambulance...that was the diagnosis of his congestive heart failure.

Nada still says *I* caused it..and that dad is having some much trouble

with his heart because of that one slightly salty meal I made!! *I* know

thats not true..I know his heart problems come from a long line of family

heart problems, plus he smoked for most of his life.. he was over weight

and never exercised..but it still hurts when she says it's my fault

Jackie

Wow, Everything has always been my fault in my nada's view. But I finally

realize at 52 that is not the truth. After my daughter and I being the

subject of one of her rages in December, I vow that I will never subject

myself or my daughter (she's 21 and that was her first experience with her

like that) to that again. She has a safety plan that she uses when she

visits, but I am very minimal contact. Having made that decision and seeing

the situation with a fresh and healthy perspective, I feel happy and at ease

for the first time.

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline

Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you

can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Doug,

Thank you for:

(1) " hoover-bait " --heehee! great term, so appropriate.

(2) the comments re: the manipulation aspect of the suicide attempts.

Throughout my senior year of high school I played " dueling garage door openers "

with my mom. She'd be in the car, in the garage with the car running. I'd be

standing at the door into the garage from the house, with my hand on the garage

door button; she'd have her remote in the car. Honestly, I think I was more

annoyed than scared--you are so right about the manipulation and the fact that

she would have been much more effective at this if she'd done it while I was at

school.

(3) Raising sexual behavior--I'd nearly forgotten that aspect of nada--nada was

a hot mess of promiscuity and inappropriate sexual behavior.

And to and Jackie's comments regarding the humor in these tragic

situations--I don't know about you all, but for me, I couldn't possibly

acknowledge the narnia-like world inside my home with a straight face. I

couldn't say it straight, either it was too painful, or I just knew how

incredibly wrong it was--it was basically laugh or cry, because there wasn't an

in between. Maybe a side effect positive thing about this is that we developed

wonderful senses of humor!

-lisa

> >

> > Wow, what a horrible experience regarding your nada trying to crash

> the car!

> > What a surprise that she gave no thought to the life of the child also

> in

> > the car. Good on the doctors for finally doing something.

> >

> > After my nada's many threats of suicide, at one point it just got old.

> You

> > folks are probably the only ones who will understand taking the risk

> to call

> > their bluff. I was still living at home in my early twenties (The

> > consequences for even thinking of moving were cruelly dramatic.) when

> she

> > pulled the last suicide scene. My role was to break down the bathroom

> door

> > and wrestle the .357 from her, while telling her how much I love her.

> > Instead, I walked away. I thought, " Go ahead then. I'm not getting

> shot. "

> > She didn't follow through.

> >

> > Now, I wondered for years whether I took the right risk. I never told

> anyone

> > because I sound so horrible. Years later, my mother figure BP ex would

> die

> > of a self-inflicted gunshot wound while holed up in my house.

> > Intellectually, I know I'm not responsible, especially since my ex

> planned

> > to kill me first. Yet I keep thinking I *should* feel responsible and

> that I

> > would have been responsible if my nada had killed herself. After all

> of

> > this, I still don't trust myself and wonder if others who don't know

> the

> > whole of both stories have the more correct opinion of my fault.

> >

> > B.

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: WTOAdultChildren1

> > [mailto:WTOAdultChildren1 ] On Behalf Of doug883@

> > Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:29 PM

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1

> > Subject: Re: anyone remember?

> >

> > My nada was very verbal and hystrionic about suicidal ideations. Once,

> > when I was about 14, and she and my dad were in the process of

> > splitting up, she left a confrontation with him, with me in the car,

> and

> > , screaming hysterically, pointed the car at a bridge abuttment and

> > floored it. Of course, we were some distance from it, but at that

> > moment I feared for my life and took the wheel and turned off the key.

> >

> > At this point, she screamed at me, in a high , shrill sound like a

> dying

> > animal, her face blood red, telling me NEVER to do that again, did I

> > know how dangerous it was to grab the wheel when someone was driving a

> > car? You could have got us killed! ( Now one who understands BPD will

> > nod sadly, and say, uh huh, but for a 14 yo kid, aside from the

> absolute

> > terror of the moment, was the thought WTF? What did YOU just try to

> do.

> > )

> >

> > She used suicide attempts, always timed so that it was when it was

> just

> > her and her teen aged son around, so I had to wrestle knives away from

> > her, or pills, or whatever was at hand, and then assure her of my love

> > through snot bubbles and sobs. She did this for years, and always when

> > it was just us around to witness it.

> >

> > I often wondered, what would happen if I called her bluff?

> >

> > I finally found out. About 6 years before her death, she pulled "

> > nervous breakdown " at her Dr s office, crying uncontrollably, and

> making

> > suicidal ideations. They called me to come and take her to the

> hospital,

> > and the instant we were outside his office the crying ceased. Some

> > nervous breakdown, huh?

> >

> > A few months later, she tried it again, and this time the Family

> > Practicioner came into the room, and got her psychiatrist on the

> phone,

> > and they told her in view of her suicidal comments, unless she agreed

> to

> > go into the hospital, in the psych ward, they would do a mental

> hygiene

> > petition and have her committed. She was mad at them the rest of her

> > life for that, but she went.

> >

> > And never mentioned suicide again.

> >

> > It took 30 years, though.

> >

> > Doug

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I don't know if this will help at all--physical expression of assertion hasn't

helped for me, but kick boxing does sound pretty good! The thing that flipped

the switch for me recently was the following epiphany: I have a right to exist.

Now, that can sound like the teacher in charlie brown--just a bunch of blah

blah, but it's profound to me. I literally did not feel like I had the right to

exist. I was floating in the world trying to go unobserved, sort of " leave no

trace " living. I bristled when anyone ever said, " I deserve <x> " or " she

deserves <x> " . In my world, there was no such thing as deserve. I hated that

word. Why do you deserve anything? nobody deserves anything. I couldn't wrap

my head around the concept of fundamental rights--like the right to exist. Thus

was I so expertly denied by nada.

I wish I could understand and articulate why the lightbulb suddenly went off for

me, but suddenly and finally, I feel like I deserve to exist/be happy/be

loved/be normal. This more than anything is releasing the kind of tacit terror

that engulfed me, and rendered me non-confrontational--at least I think it is!

I'll let you know when I have a few positive confrontation data points! (fwiw,

I have a blog where I'm tracking my ongoing process:

http://projectmindchange.wordpress.com/ I hope it's okay to share it here--it's

an anonymous blog, and I've only shared it with one other person, but it's meant

to be shared.)

-lisa

>

> I need to get better at confrontation and fighting. Sometimes

> I think I should take up boxing, something really aggressive to feel

> it in my body, and then hopefully in my mind and heart.

> I always put myself aside. And then I know I have a victim mentality

> that goes with it.

> ~patricia

> Re: Re: anyone remember?

>

>

> I understand..I dont like fighting, but I will if I think I have to...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Hi Jackie,

> I wrote this in my reply to ; but I am afraid of confrontation too. It

> scares me and I avoid it

> to my detriment. I don't want people mad at me and I fear that they

> might be mad at me but not

> tell me the truth... (another things that scares me)

> ~p

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline

Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you

can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Dear , sister-from-another [bPD] mother,

So many things you write resonate so strongly with me--sound so familiar:

- I was often accused of being too serious [despite my brilliant sense of

humor!]

- and of being like the parent--well, for crying out loud, *someone* had to,

right?!

- I was going to ask you if you happened to have a sort of heightened sense of

right/wrong--it's difficult to articulate. But I'm very sensitive about right

vs. wrong, even now. Your comment regarding doing the right thing makes me

think maybe it's another trait of kids of bpd moms, maybe. It's like

right/wrong was all I had to hold onto--as if there is an objective capital R

" Right " . I am still very attached to Right.

- I didn't even really acknowledge this until you shared it but I got so good at

acting like I didn't care, that I forgot how to. I developed an impenetrable

callous. Still working through that.

Finally, as for love, i think that's the crux of it for us kids of BPD moms--the

vast, blackhole-like deficit of unconditional love. Here's all I can say: at

this point in my healing, I'm mostly working on giving it to myself, as well as

finding it in my friends (which I honestly have barely any) and in my religious

community. And I sure feel a lot of love here, in this discussion group.

Funny that a group of folks that had no role model for love, we all kinda know

how to do it....

May we all heal.

-l

> > >

> > > Hi , I paid dearly for my " smartass " ways, though, and I

wonder if

> > > your sister did as well. Nada was ALWAYS mad at me, even if I didn't

say/do

> > > anything..I learned a long time ago there was no pleasing her so I

mostly

> > > stropped trying, and started making my own little digs back at

her....but I

> > > was always getting grounded for 2 weeks for this or that, when my

siblings

> > > if they did the same thing, were just yelled at...plus other

things...my

> > > siblings were allowed much more freedom that I ever was, so that was

my way

> > > of rebelling.. my sisters curfew was 11 on week days and 1 on

weekends..I

> > > wasn't allowed out on week days, and my curfew was 10 on

weekends...even

> > > when I was older then the age my sister was at when she could stay

out

> > > later. I never did anything wrong when out.. I wasn't a wild kid, and

I was

> > > NOT rebellious or a smartass to anyone except nada..

> > >

> > >

> > > Jackie

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Jackie,

> > > You remind me of my sister~ she was able to fight with my mom and give

it

> > > all

> > > right back to her. I used to get mad at her, when I was younger, but

then I

> > > was glad,

> > > because I could never do it. I thought she was brave that way. She

stood

> > > up to what I

> > > think is almost the scariest thing there is....a raging hair-trigger

nada!

> > > ~patricia

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Tae Kwon Do is good too.

>

> I need to get better at confrontation and fighting. Sometimes

> I think I should take up boxing, something really aggressive to feel

> it in my body, and then hopefully in my mind and heart.

> I always put myself aside. And then I know I have a victim mentality

> that goes with it.

> ~patricia

> Re: Re: anyone remember?

>

>

> I understand..I dont like fighting, but I will if I think I have to...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Hi Jackie,

> I wrote this in my reply to ; but I am afraid of confrontation too. It

> scares me and I avoid it

> to my detriment. I don't want people mad at me and I fear that they

> might be mad at me but not

> tell me the truth... (another things that scares me)

> ~p

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline

Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you

can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I know I partnered with my husband for that reason (and honestly other guys

until I woke up)...I was comfortable with the beatings and verbal/mental abuse

because that was the way I had always lived. I'm sure quite a few of us have

done the same...but now that we recognize that pattern, maybe we can change it!!

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sun, January 31, 2010 11:09:01 PM

Subject: RE: Re: anyone remember?

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I apparently chose to partner with my ex because she

was so much like my mother. I'm going to go throw up now

B.

_____

From: WTOAdultChildren1@ yahoogroups. com

[mailto:WTOAdultChildren1@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of pd

Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 2:23 PM

To: WTOAdultChildren1@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: Re: anyone remember?

~ your story is a " Wow " too. A .357? I don't understand what

you mean by: my mother figure BP ex. Is this your mother you are talking

about?

Either way....and I know mere words don't correct the way your brain might

interpret

things, nothing like this is your *fault* . A miserable angry person can

decide to

torment someone even after that miserable angry person kills herself.

How could it be your fault?

I'm sorry you had to endure all this.

~patricia

[Guest guest]

, you do this because your taught from the time you were born that

you are not important!! everyone else in the world comes first, before you

!! you need to see that isn't true, that was just your nadas way of making

you do what she wanted... you are important to your son, you're important to

your nieces, and you're important to this list. You have a lot of value

Jackie

I need to get better at confrontation and fighting. Sometimes

I think I should take up boxing, something really aggressive to feel

it in my body, and then hopefully in my mind and heart.

I always put myself aside. And then I know I have a victim mentality

that goes with it.

~patricia

[Guest guest]

thanks ..Just another way for nada to try and make me feel bad is

all. I know it's not my cooking that caused my fathers CHF...but nada loves

to tease her kids in a cruel fasion...so this is something I havent been

able to live down in my famly, and now, 11 years later, my father is dying

from the CHF and nada is still telling me it's my fault, he was fine before

he eaver ate my food !! sigh..the cruelity of a BPD parent ! I know it's

not my fault, and I dont feel guilty about it at all..it was one meal LOL

Jackie

Jackie~

this lasagna thing......is freaking crazy! God. I wish it would help you

by me

saying: NOT YOUR FAULT. I just can't believe this stuff...and it's not like

I

haven't experienced it for myself either!!

~patricia

[Guest guest]

" Oops Mom, looks like Dad ate YOUR piece by mistake! "

> >

> > Jackie~

> > this lasagna thing......is freaking crazy! God. I wish it would help you

by me

> > saying: NOT YOUR FAULT. I just can't believe this stuff...and it's not like

I

> > haven't experienced it for myself either!!

> > ~patricia

> > Re: Re: anyone remember?

> >

> >

> > when the parents were visiting one time, I was around 40..I made home made

> > lasgane...and it was a little salty...my dad couldnt breath and we called

> > the ambulance...that was the diagnosis of his congestive heart failure.

> > Nada still says *I* caused it..and that dad is having some much trouble

> > with his heart because of that one slightly salty meal I made!! *I* know

> > thats not true..I know his heart problems come from a long line of family

> > heart problems, plus he smoked for most of his life.. he was over weight

> > and never exercised..but it still hurts when she says it's my fault

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > Wow, Everything has always been my fault in my nada's view. But I finally

> > realize at 52 that is not the truth. After my daughter and I being the

> > subject of one of her rages in December, I vow that I will never subject

> > myself or my daughter (she's 21 and that was her first experience with her

> > like that) to that again. She has a safety plan that she uses when she

> > visits, but I am very minimal contact. Having made that decision and

seeing

> > the situation with a fresh and healthy perspective, I feel happy and at

ease

> > for the first time.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline

Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you

can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

LOLOL!

-Annie

> > >

> > > Jackie~

> > > this lasagna thing......is freaking crazy! God. I wish it would help you

by me

> > > saying: NOT YOUR FAULT. I just can't believe this stuff...and it's not

like I

> > > haven't experienced it for myself either!!

> > > ~patricia

> > > Re: Re: anyone remember?

> > >

> > >

> > > when the parents were visiting one time, I was around 40..I made home

made

> > > lasgane...and it was a little salty...my dad couldnt breath and we

called

> > > the ambulance...that was the diagnosis of his congestive heart failure.

> > > Nada still says *I* caused it..and that dad is having some much trouble

> > > with his heart because of that one slightly salty meal I made!! *I*

know

> > > thats not true..I know his heart problems come from a long line of

family

> > > heart problems, plus he smoked for most of his life.. he was over

weight

> > > and never exercised..but it still hurts when she says it's my fault

> > >

> > > Jackie

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Wow, Everything has always been my fault in my nada's view. But I

finally

> > > realize at 52 that is not the truth. After my daughter and I being the

> > > subject of one of her rages in December, I vow that I will never subject

> > > myself or my daughter (she's 21 and that was her first experience with

her

> > > like that) to that again. She has a safety plan that she uses when she

> > > visits, but I am very minimal contact. Having made that decision and

seeing

> > > the situation with a fresh and healthy perspective, I feel happy and at

ease

> > > for the first time.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> > >

> > > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline

Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you

can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> > >

> > > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I have a problem with the " deserve " thing too. I'm glad you had an epiphany and

I wish you could articulate it too because I think that I am

lost in a place where I see that there is just randomness in life, some people

get lucky others don't. And that it is not about deserving or not.

And so I think: why should I deserve anything? I can't wrap my head around, as

you said you felt.

I learned in my family not to ask for what I needed or wanted, including love

and affection. I had to stay away because my mother seemed to

be engulfing and my father was aloof. I learned that my complaints were not

worthy. And most of my life I sort of suffered in silence.

The boyfriend I have now, gives me so much affection and loving words, though he

can be aloof and he does not want to 'commit'. Plus he lives

far away. Because I have that old programming I don't say to him: I want to

live with you. Because I know that he will say: I told you I could not

do that. And because he gives me that loving affection, and I DO love him, I

cannot seem to face ending it.

It's hard for me to believe that at my age (48) I still feel this way and

struggle with it; after all the work I've done and therapy. But, love is

such a tender part of us; it's hard to heal those things.

I will check out your blog! Thanks!

~patricia

Re: Re: anyone remember?

>

>

> I understand..I dont like fighting, but I will if I think I have to...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Hi Jackie,

> I wrote this in my reply to ; but I am afraid of confrontation too.

It

> scares me and I avoid it

> to my detriment. I don't want people mad at me and I fear that they

> might be mad at me but not

> tell me the truth... (another things that scares me)

> ~p

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline

Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you

can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi again, ,

I think that for me the right/wrong thing is about the pressure I put on myself

about doing what's *right*. Like if I drop a piece of paper I feel like I HAVE

to pick it up or some " god " in the sky will see that I did not do the right

thing. I don't have a strong sense of morality in a traditional sense. I

accept a lot of things, but I don't believe it is right to hurt people. Or

steal, Things like that.

I think my callous has worn off; and it's in a way, breaking me, all the

sadness, pain, loss. I just cannot believe how thing after thing has come my

way and I keep wondering how much I can really take. Like even now I am crying;

these days I just cry every day.

You are right, that people who have experienced this lack of love in their

lives, seem to have an enormous capacity to give it. Maybe it is hard to

receive, but definitely very giving. I am glad that you are working on giving

love to yourself. That's always hard for me. I am just trying to catch myself

when I say: oh you are stupid; things like that. I just can't really work on

very much now anyway, just trying to get through the days. Which I hate.

(meaning I hate just trying to get through the days; I would like to really find

happiness).

~patricia

Re: anyone remember?

Dear , sister-from-another [bPD] mother,

So many things you write resonate so strongly with me--sound so familiar:

- I was often accused of being too serious [despite my brilliant sense of

humor!]

- and of being like the parent--well, for crying out loud, *someone* had to,

right?!

- I was going to ask you if you happened to have a sort of heightened sense of

right/wrong--it's difficult to articulate. But I'm very sensitive about right

vs. wrong, even now. Your comment regarding doing the right thing makes me

think maybe it's another trait of kids of bpd moms, maybe. It's like

right/wrong was all I had to hold onto--as if there is an objective capital R

" Right " . I am still very attached to Right.

- I didn't even really acknowledge this until you shared it but I got so good

at acting like I didn't care, that I forgot how to. I developed an impenetrable

callous. Still working through that.

Finally, as for love, i think that's the crux of it for us kids of BPD

moms--the vast, blackhole-like deficit of unconditional love. Here's all I can

say: at this point in my healing, I'm mostly working on giving it to myself,

as well as finding it in my friends (which I honestly have barely any) and in my

religious community. And I sure feel a lot of love here, in this discussion

group. Funny that a group of folks that had no role model for love, we all

kinda know how to do it....

May we all heal.

-l

> > >

> > > Hi , I paid dearly for my " smartass " ways, though, and I

wonder if

> > > your sister did as well. Nada was ALWAYS mad at me, even if I

didn't say/do

> > > anything..I learned a long time ago there was no pleasing her so I

mostly

> > > stropped trying, and started making my own little digs back at

her....but I

> > > was always getting grounded for 2 weeks for this or that, when my

siblings

> > > if they did the same thing, were just yelled at...plus other

things...my

> > > siblings were allowed much more freedom that I ever was, so that

was my way

> > > of rebelling.. my sisters curfew was 11 on week days and 1 on

weekends..I

> > > wasn't allowed out on week days, and my curfew was 10 on

weekends...even

> > > when I was older then the age my sister was at when she could stay

out

> > > later. I never did anything wrong when out.. I wasn't a wild kid,

and I was

> > > NOT rebellious or a smartass to anyone except nada..

> > >

> > >

> > > Jackie

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi Jackie,

> > > You remind me of my sister~ she was able to fight with my mom and

give it

> > > all

> > > right back to her. I used to get mad at her, when I was younger,

but then I

> > > was glad,

> > > because I could never do it. I thought she was brave that way. She

stood

> > > up to what I

> > > think is almost the scariest thing there is....a raging hair-trigger

nada!

> > > ~patricia

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND

HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.