Re: Re: code three questions was: great post on careflight

[Guest guest]

Well I'm sure MOST SOC/Protocols state to slow down in a school zone

during school zone hours but I was wondering if it was a law. It sure

wouldn't be able to forget running someone dow. At least reducing to

lights only is a good idea. My high school was down the road from a

EMS/Fire station and we would ALWAYS here the sirens. It was near an

intersection, so I would use the siren in that case but still.

On Tuesday, Sep 9, 2003, at 23:59 US/Central, Britton Waldron wrote:

> I don't recall reading that it is law, but if it is not, it should be!

>

> I have been taught and have taught the same for many years that when

> entering a school zone *and other sensitive areas* that you SHALL turn

> off

> your emergency lighting and siren. Remembering that a school zone is

> during

> posted hours and likely when children are present. Running over a

> child

> while responding to a call for help is not only bad forum, but gets

> you on

> the 5, 6 and 10pm news for days and on the front page of the local

> newspaper. Hard to live that blunder down.

>

> I am sure that some of our Law Readers and those that actually have JD

> behind their name will correct my errors. I look forward to the

> opportunity

> to learn.

>

> bkw

>

> Re: Re: Great Posts on CareFlite!

>

>

>> While we're on code three driving, I have a question.

>>

>> Is there a law that REQUIRES you to reduce your speed while proceeding

>> through a school zone during the school zone hours? I know you MUST

>> stop for a school bus when they have their red flashers on and the

>> stop

>> sign NO MATTER WHAT, but I don't know about the school zone.

>>

>> Thanks for any and all help,

>>

> ***snipped a bunch***

>

>

>

---

Farrell

A Human with feelings.

[Guest guest]

Acutally, my suggestion would be to reduce speed but NOT turn off the siren.

If you hit a kid with no siren on, then you are liable, more than likely.

jh

Re: Re: Great Posts on CareFlite!

>

>

>> While we're on code three driving, I have a question.

>>

>> Is there a law that REQUIRES you to reduce your speed while proceeding

>> through a school zone during the school zone hours? I know you MUST

>> stop for a school bus when they have their red flashers on and the

>> stop

>> sign NO MATTER WHAT, but I don't know about the school zone.

>>

>> Thanks for any and all help,

>>

> ***snipped a bunch***

>

>

>

---

Farrell

A Human with feelings.

[Guest guest]

JH,

The rational given for turning off the lights and siren in a school zone

(and other sensitive areas - i.e.. parks and playgrounds where children are

apt to run free) is to reduce the attraction to the vehicle. Children, as

are some adults, become attracted to the siren and flashing lights and will

move toward them for a better look. Unfortunately, several vehicles may be

responding emergency in the direction of the incident. The attention of the

Peron/child could be distracted looking at the one and not see the other,

running into the path of the on coming response vehicle.

Again, don't know as fact, correct me if I am wrong. A pedestrian being

struck by an emergency vehicle is a bad thing to have to explain. " When

seconds count " carelessness does not count for much.

Still my opinion only, yours may vary...

bkw

Re: Re: Great Posts on CareFlite!

> >

> >

> >> While we're on code three driving, I have a question.

> >>

> >> Is there a law that REQUIRES you to reduce your speed while

proceeding

> >> through a school zone during the school zone hours? I know you MUST

> >> stop for a school bus when they have their red flashers on and the

> >> stop

> >> sign NO MATTER WHAT, but I don't know about the school zone.

> >>

> >> Thanks for any and all help,

> >>

> > ***snipped a bunch***

> >

> >

> >

> ---

> Farrell

> A Human with feelings.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That is true. We've all heard those studies of going code three not

saving much time at all and you are only putting lives in danger. Just

like putting the bird up in the air.

On Wednesday, Sep 10, 2003, at 00:41 US/Central, Mike , LP wrote:

>

> Just remember, though, that turning on the lights and sirens does NOT

> mean

> driving like a bat out of hell. It's simply a pre-notification to

> those

> around you that you're coming... and that they might want to get out of

> your way. We all know that lights and sirens don't actually MAKE them

> move, but at least they make the request.

>

> Mike

>

> =====

> Do you like dreaming of things so impossible?

> Or only the practical, or ever the wild?

> Waiting through all of your bad, bad days;

> Just to end them With someone you care about?

>

> -- So Impossible, Dashboard Confessional

>

---

Farrell

A Human with feelings.

[Guest guest]

My response is if you are going to run lights- then run siren. Coding down

to lights only & then hitting a kid is harder to explain than running a SLOW

CODE 3 through the zone.

J. Hoskins

EMT/EMS Instructor

HGFR

Re: Re: Great Posts on CareFlite!

> >

> >

> >> While we're on code three driving, I have a question.

> >>

> >> Is there a law that REQUIRES you to reduce your speed while

proceeding

> >> through a school zone during the school zone hours? I know you MUST

> >> stop for a school bus when they have their red flashers on and the

> >> stop

> >> sign NO MATTER WHAT, but I don't know about the school zone.

> >>

> >> Thanks for any and all help,

> >>

> > ***snipped a bunch***

> >

> >

> >

> ---

> Farrell

> A Human with feelings.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Personally, I keep the lights and sirens activated. I just slow to below

the posted school-zone limit and I am VERY aware of what is going on around

my path. The only time that I shut the sirens off is when I need to come to

a complete stop because a frightened crossing guard is trying to clear my

path. I never approach these areas aggressively.

If we could just remember that we are only requesting passage and not

demanding it, then I feel that L & S are a good thing. I would hate to know

that an ambulance was sitting at a red light on the way to my family's

request for medical assistance. I would also hate to know that they killed

a kid responding to any call. It will just take more prudence on our part

to prevent such possible tragedies.

Schadone, NREMT-Paramedic

City of Austin

Austin/ County EMS

Medic 12 / Medic 24

@...

Re: Re: code three questions was: great post on

careflight

My response is if you are going to run lights- then run siren. Coding

down to lights only & then hitting a kid is harder to explain than running a

SLOW CODE 3 through the zone.

J. Hoskins

EMT/EMS Instructor

HGFR

Re: Re: Great Posts on CareFlite!

> >

> >

> >> While we're on code three driving, I have a question.

> >>

> >> Is there a law that REQUIRES you to reduce your speed while

proceeding

> >> through a school zone during the school zone hours? I know you

MUST

> >> stop for a school bus when they have their red flashers on and the

> >> stop

> >> sign NO MATTER WHAT, but I don't know about the school zone.

> >>

> >> Thanks for any and all help,

> >>

> > ***snipped a bunch***

> >

> >

> >

> ---

> Farrell

> A Human with feelings.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Right on the money Mike. jh

Re: Re: Great Posts on CareFlite!

> >

> >

> >> While we're on code three driving, I have a question.

> >>

> >> Is there a law that REQUIRES you to reduce your speed while

proceeding

> >> through a school zone during the school zone hours? I know you

MUST

> >> stop for a school bus when they have their red flashers on and the

> >> stop

> >> sign NO MATTER WHAT, but I don't know about the school zone.

> >>

> >> Thanks for any and all help,

> >>

> > ***snipped a bunch***

> >

> >

> >

> ---

> Farrell

> A Human with feelings.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I agree lights siren and reduce speed being ready to stop on short notice.

Watch out for those soccer moms in suvs to.

Re: Re: code three questions was: great post on

careflight

> Acutally, my suggestion would be to reduce speed but NOT turn off the

siren. If you hit a kid with no siren on, then you are liable, more than

likely.

>

> jh

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Farrell

> To:

> Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2003 snip below

[Guest guest]

As you can tell, I am quite a proponent for Code-3 response. As public

safety professionals, we are given many tools that can kill. There are a

lot of responsibilities that come with these tools. Be it amiodorone,

defibrillation, NTG, endotracheal tubes, or our big trucks, the possibility

of death resulting from misuse is high. Lights and sirens are just more

tools that we have in our tool box to provide a high level of care to our

patients.

Also, I do not only hold the driver liable for any traffic incidents. The

employer has more culpability in any accident than anyone. It is their

responsibility to train and ensure compliance. If the employer chose to not

allow their providers to respond Code-3, though, I would call them

irresponsible and cowardly. They would be taking the easy way out and would

not be acting in a professional or responsible manner. It would be safer to

advise callers to take any conscious patients to the hospital themselves.

Are we going to start doing that? We talk about the minimal time savings

with regard to medevac transports. But, as far as medevac is concerned, we

know that the patient will get a higher level of care, and the patient will

get a smoother transport (which is very important in some cases). Well, we

all know that in the time it would take us to get to the patient's side,

they could be at the hospital. So, in the case of Code-3 responses, every

second counts, and until our dispatchers are psychically triaging calls to

100% certainty, every patient deserves to get us to their side in the

timeliest fashion (which includes us actually getting there).

For those providers that need a reminder of why it is prudent to drive

especially safe when responding Code-3, remind them that if they get into an

accident, then they are out of service, a truck goes out of service to help

them and another truck or two for the other vehicle or person that they hit.

Then, they still need to get a truck to the original call. So, instead of

getting the closest truck, the patient ends up getting the fourth or fifth

closest truck (which could be many miles away). When providers realize the

issues that they could cause, they tend to take a much healthier approach to

Code-3 response.

Schadone, NREMT-Paramedic

City of Austin

Austin/ County EMS

Medic 12 / Medic 24

@...

[Guest guest]

All this talk about code 3 driving and school zones brings to mind a rather

unusual experience we had here. We were responding to a CPR call, turned off

one highway onto another, and found ourselves behind a school bus. We had

lights and sirens going, maintained a safe distance, positioned ourselves so the

driver could see us in his mirrors, etc. We followed that bus for at least a

half mile before the driver realized we were behind him. At that point, he

pulled over to the shoulder and sped up! Of course that actually slowed our

response because we had to slow down a little more and stay further back because

we've got a bus ahead of us driving 60-65 mph on the shoulder of a 2-lane

highway, coming up on several intersections and a bridge. Amazing how some of

our fellow citizens react to lights and sirens. Keeps life from getting

monotonous, I guess.

Maxine

hire-Pattison EMS

----- Original Message -----

From: Mike , LP

I agree with Britton. Saying " uh, Medic 1, disregard us from the CPR and

show us out on a pediatric auto-ped, this unit involved. Send a

helicopter, fire truck, another ambualance and a few police cars out here,

please... " is NOT on my agenda for the day.

Mike

[Guest guest]

Someone gave me a CD-ROM game last month called " Ambulance Driver " . You

tear through streets, try to beat your competing ambulance service, and

get a few penalty points for mowing down pedestrians, but you have to

stop and treat them..........Just a game, but I think it is still the

public perception that any emergency vehicle going Code 3 is out of

control, and the people driving Code 3 are too. Therefore, why yield to

this idiot driving Code 3?????? Public education and decreasing Code 3

responses/returns would greatly add to safety.

Stay fat, pink and oily-

-mikey

[Guest guest]

Sorry if my question on code 3 was confusing--but I think Mike answered

it for me. I was wondering if there is an " all or nothing " law or if its a

local protocol deal that varies from region to region. That was my question--

and thank you Mike for answering it

Dana Garrett EMT-I 427

In a message dated 9/10/03 12:42:36 AM Central Daylight Time,

mreed_911@... writes:

--- Farrell wrote:

> Well I'm sure MOST SOC/Protocols state to slow down in a school zone

> during school zone hours but I was wondering if it was a law. It sure

Actually, I've never had anything in my protocols/SOP's regarding driving

unless they in some way related to " due regard " or special circumstances

for different vehicles.

> wouldn't be able to forget running someone dow. At least reducing to

> lights only is a good idea. My high school was down the road from a

Not in Texas in an ambulance. Technically, ambulances, fire trucks and

police (except in special circumstances) must use all or nothing - not

just one or the other.

Just remember, though, that turning on the lights and sirens does NOT mean

driving like a bat out of hell. It's simply a pre-notification to those

around you that you're coming... and that they might want to get out of

your way. We all know that lights and sirens don't actually MAKE them

move, but at least they make the request.

Mike

=====

Do you like dreaming of things so impossible?

Or only the practical, or ever the wild?

Waiting through all of your bad, bad days;

Just to end them With someone you care about?

-- So Impossible, Dashboard Confessional