Re: I'm beginning to understand shaming better

[Guest guest]

--- In WTOAdultChildren1 , " Joy " 't >knock, and

that I didn't like it when she was in the dressing room >with me. She would

always say, " Geez. You are so modest. I MADE you, >so I am *allowed*! Kinda

weird.

OMG Joy, she MADE you, like a quilt, eh?

[Guest guest]

I agree with some caveats: it could be genetic (my favorite hypothesis:

inheriting multiple sets of recessive genes, simply the luck of the genetic

roulette wheel) but it could also be congenital, meaning something bad happens

to the fetus while its growing in the uterus. Say, for example, the mother is

malnourished, or alcoholic, or has a bad allergic reaction to a certain vitamin,

or a pregnant mother's wild hormone fluctuations affect a particular fetus in a

particular way, or some other weird, abnormal thing.

Or, maybe the baby is damaged during birth. Forceps used to be employed a lot

more than they are now, and maybe forceps squeeze a baby's brain in a particular

way that results in pd. Or maybe a certain amount of oxygen deprivation during

birth caused brain deterioration in certain areas that cause pd.

Maybe personality disorder is the very mildest result of oxygen deprivation in

fetuses or newborns? Severe oxygen deprivation results in mental retardation or

death, but maybe just extremely mild oxygen deprivation affects the parts of the

brain relating to emotions and cognition of emotions?

But like you, I am convinced at this point that something other than *just*

mistreatment by the parents (or *perceived* mistreatment) causes personality

disorder. Its just got to be either a genetic predisposition, or some kind of

organic damage that creates pds. Otherwise, like you said, everyone who

experiences chronic, severe childhood abuse would have a Cluster B personality

disorder.

At least, that's what seems logical to me.

-Annie

>

> Joy, your nada, my nada and Annies nada had no aboues and no other PD's in

> the family...that proves it much be genetic, not only from a bad

> environment. And if it were just bad environment, we'd ALL have some sort

> of pd with the childhoods we had !!

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Interesting similarity in dynamics, indeed.

>

> My father's (or maybe Fada?) side was also poor (my father had one brother

> and two sisters, and none of them went to college). There was abuse on this

> side of the family, also. My father was verbally and physically abuse to my

> mother and half-brother, but not towards me or my sisters for some reason.

> However, I remember (before my parents divorced when I was eight), that he

> became angry a lot and at small things and would have tantrums and yell and

> holler about this or that for one or two hours. If not at my mother, than at

> my brother or at " the room " . He was also heavily into politics and spoke of

> the injustice of this or that and how it was ruining the country. My father

> did not go to college, but his brother did and he is now a computer engineer

> and owns his own company. I haven't heard much about my father in recent

> years. Last time I heard, he dabbled in real estate with a partner, but they

> broke up and he had moved 3 after that, and stayed with a friend for a year

> and wasn't working. Then, the friend got fed up so he went to an old high

> school friend in a different state and stayed there for awhile. However this

> is all according to my Nada who kept tabs on him when the government found

> my father and forced him to pay years of back-pay for child support that he

> attempted to dodge (successfully) for over 15 years.

>

> My Nada grew up in an upper-middle class family, and everyone on her side

> went to college. Her parents, however, were lower-middle class. I wouldn't

> consider them dirt-poor, but they certainly were not wealthy and there was

> some monetary struggles on my Nada's grandmother's side during the

> Depression when her father died of a heart attack when she was 16. My Nada's

> father was an anesthesiologist, and made a lot of money, and Nada's three

> brothers and Nada all went to college all expenses paid. They all make a

> good some of money. I would consider them middle class, including my

> grandparents right now, as my grandfather has long since retired. My Nada's

> grandmother also went to college and became a medical coder before she

> married my grandfather (than she became full-time mother/housewife). I would

> only consider one of my Nada's brothers (the eldest) to be normal. The other

> two still live with my grandparents, and one is extremely anti-social (he

> will only even use the gym at 3am in the morning because no one is there)

> before going to work for 3 hours alone at his real estate office before than

> going home the rest of the day and staying in his room until dinner time.

> The other uncle has never worked since he was 19 or 20. He has 3 different

> degrees (including a Masters), but has not utilized them yet. I would

> consider him more normal than the other uncle, though. Maybe he just likes

> the free ride? Don't know...none of my business.

>

> My eldest uncle moved out at age 21, and went to school in Mexico than

> china, and he now works as a translator & teacher. He is married for 25 or

> 30 years(no children), and travels a lot for work so he is not in very much

> contact with the rest of the family. My family has the most disdain for me

> right now, and the rest goes (to a lesser degree) to this Uncle. Apparently,

> he did not contact or write to my grandparents a year after he moved out,

> and that caused a lot of chaos. Also, since his visits are infrequent due to

> his teaching schedule, and the fact he lives 6 or 7 hours away, my family

> gets irritated. My grandparents seemed to have accepted it more or less now

> though they become irritated from time to time; but one of the 2 uncles who

> lives with my grandparents despises him, and my Nada has also painted him

> black since 2004...not sure why. It sounds like she did some fun stuff with

> him when they were teenagers but that changed when she found his visiting to

> be inconsistent. She talks poorly about him to the rest of the family when

> opportunity arises.

>

> In the past, she has compared me to him and one of my other uncles whom she

> doesn't particularly care for, and said I am like these 2 uncles due to my

> selfishness. This stared when I was 16.

>

> She started comparing me more to the eldest uncle (the one who lives 6 or 7

> hours away) as I got older. She also began telling my grandmother I was like

> him, and that just like him; I always wanted and demanded to have everything

> MY way...*what?* this always surprised me because when I lived with her, I

> would consider myself a pretty passive person compared to how I am now. I

> think she just saw I was becoming more independent and it PO'ed her.

>

> In a nutshell, I don't know how these strange dynamics came about or how

> these different personalities (esp my Nadas!) formed from my grandparents. I

> will say that from living with my grandparents, I experienced that both of

> them used shaming as a way of keeping my sisters and I in line, and my

> grandmother used vicious threats and control mechanisms that my nada has

> used. I wouldn't consider her bpd, but maybe she has a pd or low self

> esteem. My grandfather had a bad temper, usually directed at

> things/mechanical failures, but would sometimes vent it on other people. I

> once forgot to close a screen door, and he said, " whoever did this, has shit

> for brains! " ...it's funny, because my Nada once wrote on a paper note taped

> to the toilet when I was 17 or 18: " Shit for brains: do not flush dental

> floss down toilet " I remember seeing it, and thinking, that's odd, I've

> never heard her use that before, but I knew she got it from my grandfather,

> and I luckily was not much affected by it. At this age, I recognized the

> pattern somehow, and I thought it was kinda funny and childish.

>

> I remember when I was younger (and my sisters, too) would hug my Nada's

> grandfather more than my grandmother...never on purpose, he was just more

> demonstrative and it felt comfortable. Hugging my Nada's grandmother was

> felt more unnatural. Like she would tense up or something. I remember my

> Nada directing my sisters and I (in private) to " remember to hug your

> grandmother--she needs it! " I'm surprised my Nada noticed or even came to

> this conclusion...looking back, she had great moments of clarity in glaring

> contrast to the other times...looking back they are sad and lonely glimpses

> in moments of false hope.

>

> Sorry this is so long. I've never written about my family background in such

> detail before.

>

> -Joy

>

[Guest guest]

According to wikipedia, forceps were used as far back as 1500 BC.

But within the last 30 years or so, difficult or prolonged deliveries that

stress the fetus too much are more often dealt with by Caesarian delivery. My

great-nephew was born recently and they used a kind of big suction cup on the

top of his head to help pull him out. I guess that's the modern equivalent of a

forceps instrument.

But, I haven't run across any research papers that are studying the possibility

that congenital factors or birth difficulties cause specific kinds of brain

damage that result in pds. Its just something that occurred to me as a

possibility. But I'll keep my eyes open for any such research studies and post

to the Group if I find any.

-Annie

>

> I agree, Annie, it just HAS to be more then environment...were forceps

> around way back then ?? maybe they used an OB chain like with cows...but I

> suppose a " problem " with the pregnancy could cause chemical changes to the

> fetus...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

> I agree with some caveats: it could be genetic (my favorite hypothesis:

> inheriting multiple sets of recessive genes, simply the luck of the genetic

> roulette wheel) but it could also be congenital, meaning something bad

> happens to the fetus while its growing in the uterus. Say, for example, the

> mother is malnourished, or alcoholic, or has a bad allergic reaction to a

> certain vitamin, or a pregnant mother's wild hormone fluctuations affect a

> particular fetus in a particular way, or some other weird, abnormal thing.

>

> Or, maybe the baby is damaged during birth. Forceps used to be employed a

> lot more than they are now, and maybe forceps squeeze a baby's brain in a

> particular way that results in pd. Or maybe a certain amount of oxygen

> deprivation during birth caused brain deterioration in certain areas that

> cause pd.

>

> Maybe personality disorder is the very mildest result of oxygen deprivation

> in fetuses or newborns? Severe oxygen deprivation results in mental

> retardation or death, but maybe just extremely mild oxygen deprivation

> affects the parts of the brain relating to emotions and cognition of

> emotions?

>

> But like you, I am convinced at this point that something other than *just*

> mistreatment by the parents (or *perceived* mistreatment) causes personality

> disorder. Its just got to be either a genetic predisposition, or some kind

> of organic damage that creates pds. Otherwise, like you said, everyone who

> experiences chronic, severe childhood abuse would have a Cluster B

> personality disorder.

>

> At least, that's what seems logical to me.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

I remember reading of an hypothesis that schizophrenia could possibly be caused

by the mother having contracted a viral infection late in her pregnancy.I've

actually wondered if the same could apply to a severe disorder like BPD.I don't

have a link to research but I'll look to see if there's anything.The other thing

I read about schizophrenia was that researchers noticed there were clusters of

births of diagnosed schizophrenics during the coldest months of the year in both

the northern and southern hemispheres and the researchers were speculating if

that had some connection to the suspected maternal viral infections.

Having said that,it seems like our nadas here were born pretty much

through out the year.

Annie you might be on to something re birth trauma.I recall my

grandmother claiming to have been " put under " when my father was born--she woke

up and had a baby.I think there was a period in obstetrics during the 30s into

the early 50s when women were put under general anesthesia for a birth,so god

knows how the baby was born if the mother wasn't participating by pushing.

I had a traumatic forceps birth because nada *refused* to push--the old

fashioned head gripping forceps.I don't think that gave me a PD but I have

wondered if it is the reason why I am left handed since I am the ONLY person in

my immediate or extended family who is.From what I have read handedness is

supposed to be genetic.

> >

> > I agree, Annie, it just HAS to be more then environment...were forceps

> > around way back then ?? maybe they used an OB chain like with cows...but I

> > suppose a " problem " with the pregnancy could cause chemical changes to the

> > fetus...

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > I agree with some caveats: it could be genetic (my favorite hypothesis:

> > inheriting multiple sets of recessive genes, simply the luck of the genetic

> > roulette wheel) but it could also be congenital, meaning something bad

> > happens to the fetus while its growing in the uterus. Say, for example, the

> > mother is malnourished, or alcoholic, or has a bad allergic reaction to a

> > certain vitamin, or a pregnant mother's wild hormone fluctuations affect a

> > particular fetus in a particular way, or some other weird, abnormal thing.

> >

> > Or, maybe the baby is damaged during birth. Forceps used to be employed a

> > lot more than they are now, and maybe forceps squeeze a baby's brain in a

> > particular way that results in pd. Or maybe a certain amount of oxygen

> > deprivation during birth caused brain deterioration in certain areas that

> > cause pd.

> >

> > Maybe personality disorder is the very mildest result of oxygen deprivation

> > in fetuses or newborns? Severe oxygen deprivation results in mental

> > retardation or death, but maybe just extremely mild oxygen deprivation

> > affects the parts of the brain relating to emotions and cognition of

> > emotions?

> >

> > But like you, I am convinced at this point that something other than *just*

> > mistreatment by the parents (or *perceived* mistreatment) causes personality

> > disorder. Its just got to be either a genetic predisposition, or some kind

> > of organic damage that creates pds. Otherwise, like you said, everyone who

> > experiences chronic, severe childhood abuse would have a Cluster B

> > personality disorder.

> >

> > At least, that's what seems logical to me.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

This really is an interesting dynamic.Add me to the list of people whose father

grew up poor and whose nada did not.

My nada never wanted much for anything material.My grandfather was an

Italian immigrant who worked hard to give his two kids " the American dream " and

never held this over their heads: it was his pleasure to be able to provide for

them.He *wanted* nada to have a better childhood than he had had in Italy and he

*wanted* her to be happy.But this is where the spoiling comes in: if nada wanted

it,nada got it.

My fada's father was poor for reasons I have not been able to really

understand.I suspect there might be some family secret here that I will never

know.From what my father has told me,his paternal grandmother was a raging BPD

witch who made her son's lives miserable.My grandfather doesn't seem to have had

a PD--he seems more like a KO who got sucked under.That's the only reason I can

see for why he was never able to achieve success in life.

My grandfather died before I was born,so I never knew him.He was a

schoolteacher who was drafted into the First World War (my grandmother married

an older man) and he was poisoned by mustard gas in France which lead to ongoing

health problems.Yet,this apparently sick man tried to run a farm--which

failed.He then became an accountant,had a steady job,but they never had any

money.My fada had plenty of stories about feeling humiliated by the poverty they

were living in.

And then he married a spoiled brat who ran him ragged providing for her

and who was never satisfied.My father had a Master's degree and we were

comfortably middle class but like Jackie was saying,nada always acted like we

were one step from the poorhouse.She shopped in discount stores and only bought

the cheapest kind of food.It's like she constantly threw fada's fears of poverty

back in his face--or like he was re-enacting those traumas through her.

Weird.

> > >

> > > wow, that's like my family !! my dad grew up in a dirt poor family...they

> > > lived in a 2 room shack..with 6 kids !! my grandfather lost his job and

> > > became an alcoholic..they did not have running water in the house..nada

came

> > > from well to do family who were rich by most standards through the

> > > depression..they always had food, always had a job..yet nada is the one

with

> > > the cheap attitude and a miser !! in our family, my father had a very

good

> > > paying job ( he was making over $100,000 by 1976) yet I remember nada

> > > buying powered milk you mix with water and mixing that with the 2% to

make

> > > it last longer...we always had day old bread and the way she talked we

> > > always thought we were one step from the poor farm

> > >

> > > Jackie

> >

>

[Guest guest]

My nada told me she was born left-handed but that back in the 1930s children

were not allowed to write left-handed in school; nada was forced to learn to use

her right hand for writing, and that messed her up and gave her dyslexia. Just

more weird little factoids in my family history. Dad and I: right-handed, nada

and Sister: lefties. Neither dad, Sister or I had dyslexia. By the time Sister

and I were in school in the 1950s/1960s, I'm pretty sure that children were no

longer forced to use their right hand to write, but I'd have to ask Sister to be

sure.

Both my parents were born in their respective homes; no forceps (and no

anesthesia!) Sister and I were both born in hospital; no info RE forceps use on

us, but it was likely because nada said she was knocked out both times.

-Annie

>

> both my parents and 4 of the 5 kids are right handed...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

> I remember reading of an hypothesis that schizophrenia could possibly be

> caused by the mother having contracted a viral infection late in her

> pregnancy.I've actually wondered if the same could apply to a severe

> disorder like BPD.I don't have a link to research but I'll look to see if

> there's anything.The other thing I read about schizophrenia was that

> researchers noticed there were clusters of births of diagnosed

> schizophrenics during the coldest months of the year in both the northern

> and southern hemispheres and the researchers were speculating if that had

> some connection to the suspected maternal viral infections.

>

> Having said that,it seems like our nadas here were born pretty much

> through out the year.

>

> Annie you might be on to something re birth trauma.I recall my

> grandmother claiming to have been " put under " when my father was born--she

> woke up and had a baby.I think there was a period in obstetrics during the

> 30s into the early 50s when women were put under general anesthesia for a

> birth,so god knows how the baby was born if the mother wasn't participating

> by pushing.

>

> I had a traumatic forceps birth because nada *refused* to push--the

> old fashioned head gripping forceps.I don't think that gave me a PD but I

> have wondered if it is the reason why I am left handed since I am the ONLY

> person in my immediate or extended family who is.From what I have read

> handedness is supposed to be genetic.

>

>

>