Re: I'm beginning to understand shaming better

[Guest guest]

I think you're right; all those very shaming messages were basically saying " You

are a worthless piece of dung and do not deserve love or caring " .

But that is virtually the same as being told " You are bad " , its just somewhat

less direct.

I'm so sorry your nada was so hostile, controlling and destructive to you;

sounds like you were the designated scapegoat. No child deserves to hear those

messages growing up; that's severely emotionally abusive and toxic. My nada

spewed nearly identical messages at Sister and me, so I can relate to your pain.

-Annie

>

> My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it have

prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I felt

was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

>

> Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

>

> We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up that

explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

>

> My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

>

> - look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

> - give me the nickname " Bratinella "

> - ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

> - get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been taught how

to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

> - minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

stupid for crying when my cat was injured

> - telling me children should be seen and not heard

> - saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

> - telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

> - always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

> - as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not agree

with me about something

> - constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out " my

welcome

> - showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and clean and

telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

> - banging on the door because i was using too much water showering. like i

didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair and

shave my legs

> - constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have it

worse

>

> Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the reading

I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

>

> My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

>

> Here's an excellent article on shame:

>

> http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

>

>

> Deanna

>

[Guest guest]

OMG are we sisters ??? except for saying " I'm not you n--- " my nada always

said she's not my maid...and she never called me Bratinella, but she did

always tell me " you're just pure evil " otherwise all these other things

went on in our house too..showers were timed, and if you went over, she'd be

there banging on the door ( my niece spent a year with them, in 1993, and

told me she was doing that to her ...I told her yes, water is

measured..when I visit, I always take my own toilet paper because nada will

yell that I use too much " You only need 2 or 3 squares " absurd..I guess

my attitude with her yelling about the toilet paper, and banging on the door

during a shower just and the others just reinforced to me that SHE has a

problem !!

Jackie

My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it have

prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I

felt was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up that

explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

- look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

- give me the nickname " Bratinella "

- ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

- get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been taught

how to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

- minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

stupid for crying when my cat was injured

- telling me children should be seen and not heard

- saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

- telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

- always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

- as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not

agree with me about something

- constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out " my

welcome

- showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and clean

and telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

- banging on the door because i was using too much water showering. like i

didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair and

shave my legs

- constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have it

worse

Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the

reading I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

Here's an excellent article on shame:

http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

Deanna

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

@.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Jackie, your posts almost always remind me of my nada. They sound very similar.

As to the shower timing, one time I decided to try and shower as fast as I could

to see if maybe I *was* taking too long. I shaved my legs, soaped up,

shampooed, and WHAM here she is banging on the door. It was physically

impossible to get myself clean and shaved in the time she allotted. When I was

5, she stated making me shower with my brother, *who was 12* to save water.

That didn't last long, but talk about inappropriate!

And we were middle class, for heaven's sake! Not like we couldn't pay the water

bill. It's just like, " how dare you need water, how dare you need clean

clothes, how dare you have fun, how dare you have feelings, how dare you cry,

how dare you want a frickin gumball from the machine, how dare you speak, HOW

DARE YOU EXIST! "

Deanna

>

> OMG are we sisters ??? except for saying " I'm not you n--- " my nada always

> said she's not my maid...and she never called me Bratinella, but she did

> always tell me " you're just pure evil " otherwise all these other things

> went on in our house too..showers were timed, and if you went over, she'd be

> there banging on the door ( my niece spent a year with them, in 1993, and

> told me she was doing that to her ...I told her yes, water is

> measured..when I visit, I always take my own toilet paper because nada will

> yell that I use too much " You only need 2 or 3 squares " absurd..I guess

> my attitude with her yelling about the toilet paper, and banging on the door

> during a shower just and the others just reinforced to me that SHE has a

> problem !!

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it have

> prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I

> felt was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

>

> Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

>

> We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up that

> explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

>

> My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

>

> - look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

> - give me the nickname " Bratinella "

> - ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

> emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

> - get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been taught

> how to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

> - minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

> stupid for crying when my cat was injured

> - telling me children should be seen and not heard

> - saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

> - telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

> - always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

> conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

> - as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not

> agree with me about something

> - constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out " my

> welcome

> - showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and clean

> and telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

> - banging on the door because i was using too much water showering. like i

> didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair and

> shave my legs

> - constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have it

> worse

>

> Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

> wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the

> reading I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

>

> My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

>

> Here's an excellent article on shame:

>

> http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

>

>

> Deanna

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> @... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

> THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi Deanna

I'm glad you wrote this out...it gives me a lot of clarity in how to understand

shaming statements

and minimizing. I'm sure it has helped others as well.

~patricia

I'm beginning to understand shaming better

My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it have

prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I felt

was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up that

explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

- look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

- give me the nickname " Bratinella "

- ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

- get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been taught how

to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

- minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

stupid for crying when my cat was injured

- telling me children should be seen and not heard

- saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

- telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

- always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

- as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not agree

with me about something

- constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out " my

welcome

- showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and clean and

telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

- banging on the door because i was using too much water showering. like i

didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair and

shave my legs

- constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have it

worse

Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the reading

I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

Here's an excellent article on shame:

http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

Deanna

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Yes, exactly: the bpd/narcissist's child is made to feel shame for even

existing.

" How dare you have needs? " screams the pd parent (in so many words,) " How dare

you want affection or attention? You should be down on your knees thanking me

that you're even fed, clothed and have a place to sleep, you ungrateful little

bitch/bastard! "

Why do these people even have children in the first place, is what I'd like to

know!

-Annie

>

> Jackie, your posts almost always remind me of my nada. They sound very

similar.

>

> As to the shower timing, one time I decided to try and shower as fast as I

could to see if maybe I *was* taking too long. I shaved my legs, soaped up,

shampooed, and WHAM here she is banging on the door. It was physically

impossible to get myself clean and shaved in the time she allotted. When I was

5, she stated making me shower with my brother, *who was 12* to save water.

That didn't last long, but talk about inappropriate!

>

> And we were middle class, for heaven's sake! Not like we couldn't pay the

water bill. It's just like, " how dare you need water, how dare you need clean

clothes, how dare you have fun, how dare you have feelings, how dare you cry,

how dare you want a frickin gumball from the machine, how dare you speak, HOW

DARE YOU EXIST! "

>

> Deanna

[Guest guest]

Hi Deanna,

This list sooo resonates with me. I forgot about the restroom one...although, it

was my grandmother who would shame me for needing to go to the bathroom. I

remember once when I was 7 or 8 in a department store with her and my sister.

She was trying on jackets while my Nada was in another department.

Basically, the restroom was across the floor and we were gradually inching our

way towards it. I had to go so bad I thought I was going to pee my pants. I had

to literally sit down on my leg to keep it from coming out. I was painful moving

gradually from rack to rack like this. Looking back, I can't believe she did

this when there had to have been other people in the store.

I told her, I have to go sooo bad though. She said, " well, the whole world

doesn't revolve around YOU. You think everyone has to stop everything they are

doing just for *YOU*?

Ick.

_____

I am curious about this EMDR...does it help with feelings of shame? It seems so

difficult to get rid of shame. I think it's what they call " toxic shame " . It's

impounded sometimes and we have to somehow weave are way out of it through years

of brainwashing.

Let me know how the EMDR helps with your feelings of shame. I am curious.

Also, here is another article on shame and healing from it you might find

interesting (it's from a Christian standpoint):

-Joy

>

> My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it have

prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I felt

was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

>

> Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

>

> We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up that

explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

>

> My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

>

> - look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

> - give me the nickname " Bratinella "

> - ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

> - get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been taught how

to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

> - minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

stupid for crying when my cat was injured

> - telling me children should be seen and not heard

> - saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

> - telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

> - always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

> - as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not agree

with me about something

> - constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out " my

welcome

> - showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and clean and

telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

> - banging on the door because i was using too much water showering. like i

didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair and

shave my legs

> - constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have it

worse

>

> Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the reading

I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

>

> My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

>

> Here's an excellent article on shame:

>

> http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

>

>

> Deanna

>

[Guest guest]

Bathroom weirdness...oh yes. I was never allowed to stay unbothered in the

bathroom for more than maybe five minutes, if that. Before long she would come

to the door to ask " Are you alright in there? " or to tell me something or ask me

something. She couldn't stop interacting with me. I developed bladder and

colon shyness early, it would be so difficult for me to go if I knew that anyone

knew that I was in a bathroom or was waiting for me and had known exactly how

long I had been in there. Even at now I have a few odd behaviors in that

department related to that. Also early on I had urinary frequency, something

about the anxiety about going made me need to constantly - I've also thought it

could be related to that the bathroom was the only place I got any privacy from

her - if only for five minute increments. They sure do a number on us.

> >

> > My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it have

prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I felt

was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

> >

> > Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

> >

> > We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up that

explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

> >

> > My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

> >

> > - look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

> > - give me the nickname " Bratinella "

> > - ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

> > - get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been taught

how to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

> > - minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

stupid for crying when my cat was injured

> > - telling me children should be seen and not heard

> > - saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

> > - telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

> > - always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

> > - as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not

agree with me about something

> > - constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out " my

welcome

> > - showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and clean

and telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

> > - banging on the door because i was using too much water showering. like i

didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair and

shave my legs

> > - constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have it

worse

> >

> > Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the reading

I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

> >

> > My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

> >

> > Here's an excellent article on shame:

> >

> > http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

> >

> >

> > Deanna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

The shower thing is odd. I am wondering if your Nada's family or ancestry came

from a line of deprivation. Studies have shown that so-called " habits " , some

emotions, attitudes, and our perceptions of things are influenced by our

lineage. It is in our DNA.

However, there have been studies that prove we can change our dna through

meditation and hypnosis and prayer. And also the power of our thoughts and

talking back to our inner critics are also very important. (bpd is a separate

issue from this--and obviously your nada could not see grays).

The subject fascinates me. My Nada often became angry on a weekly basis when

there was food still in the refrigerator that people hadn't eaten. She would

always ask me first why I hadn't eaten this or that, and why I expected her to

slave away at work to feed my sisters and I and then be so wasteful. I remember

once she screamed, " Ten years ago, I was even lucky to have a cabbage in my

refridgerator!! "

It was odd to me because I always thought she bought so much food every 2 weeks

or maybe once a week depending. So of course we would have extra from that.

I have strong reason to believe that my grandpa's mother had bpd from the

outrageous stories I heard when she came to visit my grandparents when my Nada

and three brothers were young. My grandma would break out in body rashes for a

week she made her so frazzled. My grandma said every morning at 8 am sharp, she

would be waiting by the front doorway to be taken out to town to be entertained.

If people were late getting up, she would claim nobody cared that she was there

and that she will remember not to *inconvenience* people by flying all the way

out to visit next time. She also once around lunch time (according to

grandmother) opened their pantry cubbard that was full, and exclaimed " there is

no food in this house! I can NOT eat here--no food! " My grandma was astounded as

the entire cubbard was full.

It also scares me because I wonder if I have a child, would they have bpd? I

have heard it is usually a combination of genetics AND environment, however.

-Joy

> >

> > OMG are we sisters ??? except for saying " I'm not you n--- " my nada always

> > said she's not my maid...and she never called me Bratinella, but she did

> > always tell me " you're just pure evil " otherwise all these other things

> > went on in our house too..showers were timed, and if you went over, she'd be

> > there banging on the door ( my niece spent a year with them, in 1993, and

> > told me she was doing that to her ...I told her yes, water is

> > measured..when I visit, I always take my own toilet paper because nada will

> > yell that I use too much " You only need 2 or 3 squares " absurd..I guess

> > my attitude with her yelling about the toilet paper, and banging on the door

> > during a shower just and the others just reinforced to me that SHE has a

> > problem !!

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it have

> > prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I

> > felt was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

> >

> > Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

> >

> > We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up that

> > explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

> >

> > My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

> >

> > - look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

> > - give me the nickname " Bratinella "

> > - ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

> > emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

> > - get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been taught

> > how to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

> > - minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

> > stupid for crying when my cat was injured

> > - telling me children should be seen and not heard

> > - saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

> > - telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

> > - always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

> > conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

> > - as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not

> > agree with me about something

> > - constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out " my

> > welcome

> > - showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and clean

> > and telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

> > - banging on the door because i was using too much water showering. like i

> > didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair and

> > shave my legs

> > - constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have it

> > worse

> >

> > Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

> > wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the

> > reading I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

> >

> > My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

> >

> > Here's an excellent article on shame:

> >

> > http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

> >

> >

> > Deanna

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at

> > @ SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON

> > THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

> > () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> > Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

> > find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

> > and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

http://www.12accede.org/shamenot.html

> >

> > My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it have

prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I felt

was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

> >

> > Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

> >

> > We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up that

explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

> >

> > My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

> >

> > - look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

> > - give me the nickname " Bratinella "

> > - ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

> > - get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been taught

how to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

> > - minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

stupid for crying when my cat was injured

> > - telling me children should be seen and not heard

> > - saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

> > - telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

> > - always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

> > - as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not

agree with me about something

> > - constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out " my

welcome

> > - showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and clean

and telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

> > - banging on the door because i was using too much water showering. like i

didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair and

shave my legs

> > - constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have it

worse

> >

> > Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the reading

I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

> >

> > My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

> >

> > Here's an excellent article on shame:

> >

> > http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

> >

> >

> > Deanna

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Its so wrong to torture a child and shame her for a bodily need.

These people are just sadistic; there's no other word for it. No adult has the

*right* to shame a child over an involuntary bodily function; that's just cruel

and inhuman. Good Lord; why do they need to do this to little children? I

don't think I can ever understand this. I just truly don't.

-Annie

>

> Hi Deanna,

>

> This list sooo resonates with me. I forgot about the restroom one...although,

it was my grandmother who would shame me for needing to go to the bathroom. I

remember once when I was 7 or 8 in a department store with her and my sister.

She was trying on jackets while my Nada was in another department.

>

> Basically, the restroom was across the floor and we were gradually inching our

way towards it. I had to go so bad I thought I was going to pee my pants. I had

to literally sit down on my leg to keep it from coming out. I was painful moving

gradually from rack to rack like this. Looking back, I can't believe she did

this when there had to have been other people in the store.

>

> I told her, I have to go sooo bad though. She said, " well, the whole world

doesn't revolve around YOU. You think everyone has to stop everything they are

doing just for *YOU*?

>

> Ick.

[Guest guest]

I agree. The bpd's intrusiveness in areas that should be completely private is

totally creepy. And their disinterest and unconcern in areas that *should* be

of concern to a parent: say, when their child is being bullied or molested, is

equally baffling and creepy.

These people should never be allowed to be alone with children, let alone raise

them. They are too dysfunctional and lack basic parenting skills. They do more

harm than good.

-Annie

> > >

> > > My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it have

prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I felt

was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

> > >

> > > Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

> > >

> > > We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up that

explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

> > >

> > > My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

> > >

> > > - look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

> > > - give me the nickname " Bratinella "

> > > - ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

> > > - get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been taught

how to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

> > > - minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

stupid for crying when my cat was injured

> > > - telling me children should be seen and not heard

> > > - saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

> > > - telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

> > > - always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

> > > - as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not

agree with me about something

> > > - constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out "

my welcome

> > > - showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and clean

and telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

> > > - banging on the door because i was using too much water showering. like

i didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair and

shave my legs

> > > - constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have

it worse

> > >

> > > Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the reading

I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

> > >

> > > My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

> > >

> > > Here's an excellent article on shame:

> > >

> > > http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

> > >

> > >

> > > Deanna

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

From what I've read, the current popular opinion amongst scientific researchers

in the area of the mind (psychiatry) and the brain (as a physical, chemical and

electrical organ) is that personality disorders of the Cluster B variety are

caused by a combination of pre-disposing genetic factors *plus* abnormal

parenting/environment.

But if you provide a safe, stable, nurturing, mentally healthy, " good enough "

parenting environment for your children, they should turn out OK.

-Annie

>

> The shower thing is odd. I am wondering if your Nada's family or ancestry came

from a line of deprivation. Studies have shown that so-called " habits " , some

emotions, attitudes, and our perceptions of things are influenced by our

lineage. It is in our DNA.

>

> However, there have been studies that prove we can change our dna through

meditation and hypnosis and prayer. And also the power of our thoughts and

talking back to our inner critics are also very important. (bpd is a separate

issue from this--and obviously your nada could not see grays).

>

> The subject fascinates me. My Nada often became angry on a weekly basis when

there was food still in the refrigerator that people hadn't eaten. She would

always ask me first why I hadn't eaten this or that, and why I expected her to

slave away at work to feed my sisters and I and then be so wasteful. I remember

once she screamed, " Ten years ago, I was even lucky to have a cabbage in my

refridgerator!! "

>

> It was odd to me because I always thought she bought so much food every 2

weeks or maybe once a week depending. So of course we would have extra from

that.

>

> I have strong reason to believe that my grandpa's mother had bpd from the

outrageous stories I heard when she came to visit my grandparents when my Nada

and three brothers were young. My grandma would break out in body rashes for a

week she made her so frazzled. My grandma said every morning at 8 am sharp, she

would be waiting by the front doorway to be taken out to town to be entertained.

If people were late getting up, she would claim nobody cared that she was there

and that she will remember not to *inconvenience* people by flying all the way

out to visit next time. She also once around lunch time (according to

grandmother) opened their pantry cubbard that was full, and exclaimed " there is

no food in this house! I can NOT eat here--no food! " My grandma was astounded as

the entire cubbard was full.

>

> It also scares me because I wonder if I have a child, would they have bpd? I

have heard it is usually a combination of genetics AND environment, however.

>

> -Joy

[Guest guest]

Excellent point Annie, I was bullied and did have problems I brought to her at

times which she acted like she had no responsibility to fix or deal with at all.

And yet a kid can't spend five minutes in the bathroom? It's crazy-making.

Neglect combined with enmeshment, rage with smothering, it's a wonder any of us

are sane at all.

> > > >

> > > > My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it

have prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I

felt was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

> > > >

> > > > Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

> > > >

> > > > We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up

that explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

> > > >

> > > > My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

> > > >

> > > > - look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

> > > > - give me the nickname " Bratinella "

> > > > - ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

> > > > - get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been

taught how to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

> > > > - minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

stupid for crying when my cat was injured

> > > > - telling me children should be seen and not heard

> > > > - saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

> > > > - telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

> > > > - always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

> > > > - as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not

agree with me about something

> > > > - constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out "

my welcome

> > > > - showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and

clean and telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

> > > > - banging on the door because i was using too much water showering.

like i didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair

and shave my legs

> > > > - constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have

it worse

> > > >

> > > > Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the reading

I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

> > > >

> > > > My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

> > > >

> > > > Here's an excellent article on shame:

> > > >

> > > > http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Deanna

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Joy, That sucks. I guess it's one of two things: pure sadism, or a sense of

" nobody listened to me as a kid so I'm not going to listen to you " [insert

tantrum here].

I think some people just cannot handle power, and those people should definitely

not have kids or be managers. Any kind of power needs to be tempered with

compassion.

That was terrible of her to ignore you. A similar thing happened to me when my

nada would not take me to the (nearby) restroom, even though I kept telling her

I couldn't hold it. When I finally told her that I had pooped my pants (I was 5

years old), I was so afraid she would yell at me, but she didn't. She just told

me we would go to the bathroom *in a minute*. So I had to walk around in my own

waste. If I had been in charge of a kid and that had happened, I would have

been all over my self with apologies and I would have dropped everything to take

her to the bathroom, and resolved to her that I would *listen* to her the next

time.

My nada, however, couldn't be bothered to take care of me at that moment. It

felt like what your grandmother said to you, like she thought " YOU can't tell ME

when to take you to the bathroom. "

I was ashamed of this incident well into my adulthood until I realized that it

was *nada* that should be ashamed, not me.

Deanna

>

> Hi Deanna,

>

> This list sooo resonates with me. I forgot about the restroom one...although,

it was my grandmother who would shame me for needing to go to the bathroom. I

remember once when I was 7 or 8 in a department store with her and my sister.

She was trying on jackets while my Nada was in another department.

>

> Basically, the restroom was across the floor and we were gradually inching our

way towards it. I had to go so bad I thought I was going to pee my pants. I had

to literally sit down on my leg to keep it from coming out. I was painful moving

gradually from rack to rack like this. Looking back, I can't believe she did

this when there had to have been other people in the store.

>

> I told her, I have to go sooo bad though. She said, " well, the whole world

doesn't revolve around YOU. You think everyone has to stop everything they are

doing just for *YOU*?

>

> Ick.

> _____

>

[Guest guest]

Joy, I'm new with the EMDR. I think it is supposed to help with shame. So far

the only real difference I have noticed is the reduction in anxiety when

recalling one certain incident that we worked on. But I will keep everyone

updated.

Deanna

>

> Hi Deanna,

>

> This list sooo resonates with me. I forgot about the restroom one...although,

it was my grandmother who would shame me for needing to go to the bathroom. I

remember once when I was 7 or 8 in a department store with her and my sister.

She was trying on jackets while my Nada was in another department.

>

> Basically, the restroom was across the floor and we were gradually inching our

way towards it. I had to go so bad I thought I was going to pee my pants. I had

to literally sit down on my leg to keep it from coming out. I was painful moving

gradually from rack to rack like this. Looking back, I can't believe she did

this when there had to have been other people in the store.

>

> I told her, I have to go sooo bad though. She said, " well, the whole world

doesn't revolve around YOU. You think everyone has to stop everything they are

doing just for *YOU*?

>

> Ick.

> _____

>

> I am curious about this EMDR...does it help with feelings of shame? It seems

so difficult to get rid of shame. I think it's what they call " toxic shame " .

It's impounded sometimes and we have to somehow weave are way out of it through

years of brainwashing.

>

> Let me know how the EMDR helps with your feelings of shame. I am curious.

>

> Also, here is another article on shame and healing from it you might find

interesting (it's from a Christian standpoint):

>

> -Joy

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, my nada grew up poor.

Deanna

>

> The shower thing is odd. I am wondering if your Nada's family or ancestry came

from a line of deprivation. Studies have shown that so-called " habits " , some

emotions, attitudes, and our perceptions of things are influenced by our

lineage. It is in our DNA.

>

> However, there have been studies that prove we can change our dna through

meditation and hypnosis and prayer. And also the power of our thoughts and

talking back to our inner critics are also very important. (bpd is a separate

issue from this--and obviously your nada could not see grays).

>

> The subject fascinates me. My Nada often became angry on a weekly basis when

there was food still in the refrigerator that people hadn't eaten. She would

always ask me first why I hadn't eaten this or that, and why I expected her to

slave away at work to feed my sisters and I and then be so wasteful. I remember

once she screamed, " Ten years ago, I was even lucky to have a cabbage in my

refridgerator!! "

>

> It was odd to me because I always thought she bought so much food every 2

weeks or maybe once a week depending. So of course we would have extra from

that.

>

> I have strong reason to believe that my grandpa's mother had bpd from the

outrageous stories I heard when she came to visit my grandparents when my Nada

and three brothers were young. My grandma would break out in body rashes for a

week she made her so frazzled. My grandma said every morning at 8 am sharp, she

would be waiting by the front doorway to be taken out to town to be entertained.

If people were late getting up, she would claim nobody cared that she was there

and that she will remember not to *inconvenience* people by flying all the way

out to visit next time. She also once around lunch time (according to

grandmother) opened their pantry cubbard that was full, and exclaimed " there is

no food in this house! I can NOT eat here--no food! " My grandma was astounded as

the entire cubbard was full.

>

> It also scares me because I wonder if I have a child, would they have bpd? I

have heard it is usually a combination of genetics AND environment, however.

>

> -Joy

>

[Guest guest]

My dad grew up in extreme poverty in a broken home (during the Great Depression)

but he didn't have weird, punitive, intrusive, miserly behaviors revolving

around food, how much water we used, clothing, etc. as an adult. He was a

generous-hearted man.

My nada grew up in a middle-class home (intact family, her dad kept his job

during the Great Depression, there was no danger of starvation) and yet nada had

bizarre behaviors revolving around material goods that she was actually proud

of, such as never buying anything that wasn't on sale, buying old bread from the

bakery, etc. as though we were quite poor when in truth my dad had a good paying

upper-middle-class job. And she was controlling and intrusive with our bodies

(Sister's and mine) letting us have no normal privacy boundaries, yet would not

defend me and would take the other person's side when I had problems at school

or with a neighbor kid, etc. Whatever was wrong was always my fault.

So yes, the personality disordered brain seems to just have a very warped and

skewed way of processing reality, and causes behaviors that are sometimes 180

degrees opposite of what would be an obviously appropriate, normal and rational

response to ordinary daily events and stresses.

Bpds just aren't qualified to raise children: their dysfunction shows up most

glaringly in their inability to properly care for their children's emotional

needs. Emotional stability, centered and rational thinking, and the capacity

for empathy is their least functional area.

I'm in an extremely angry mood today, and thinking extreme thoughts; pregnant

women ought to be screened for Cluster B personality disorders and the children

removed from the ones who have it at birth. Being raised in a orphanage has got

to be better than being raised by a personality disordered mother, seems to me.

Grrr.

-Annie

> >

> > The shower thing is odd. I am wondering if your Nada's family or ancestry

came from a line of deprivation. Studies have shown that so-called " habits " ,

some emotions, attitudes, and our perceptions of things are influenced by our

lineage. It is in our DNA.

> >

> > However, there have been studies that prove we can change our dna through

meditation and hypnosis and prayer. And also the power of our thoughts and

talking back to our inner critics are also very important. (bpd is a separate

issue from this--and obviously your nada could not see grays).

> >

> > The subject fascinates me. My Nada often became angry on a weekly basis when

there was food still in the refrigerator that people hadn't eaten. She would

always ask me first why I hadn't eaten this or that, and why I expected her to

slave away at work to feed my sisters and I and then be so wasteful. I remember

once she screamed, " Ten years ago, I was even lucky to have a cabbage in my

refridgerator!! "

> >

> > It was odd to me because I always thought she bought so much food every 2

weeks or maybe once a week depending. So of course we would have extra from

that.

> >

> > I have strong reason to believe that my grandpa's mother had bpd from the

outrageous stories I heard when she came to visit my grandparents when my Nada

and three brothers were young. My grandma would break out in body rashes for a

week she made her so frazzled. My grandma said every morning at 8 am sharp, she

would be waiting by the front doorway to be taken out to town to be entertained.

If people were late getting up, she would claim nobody cared that she was there

and that she will remember not to *inconvenience* people by flying all the way

out to visit next time. She also once around lunch time (according to

grandmother) opened their pantry cubbard that was full, and exclaimed " there is

no food in this house! I can NOT eat here--no food! " My grandma was astounded as

the entire cubbard was full.

> >

> > It also scares me because I wonder if I have a child, would they have bpd? I

have heard it is usually a combination of genetics AND environment, however.

> >

> > -Joy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jackie, I'm beginning to wonder if our nadas were separated at birth, or

something, lol! Our dads had such uncannily similar backgrounds too. And the

family dynamics / dysfunctional behaviors of our nadas & dads are really

similar. Its almost eerie!

If you'd care to share (if I'm not being intrusive) did either set of your

grandparents have any pds that you know of?

From my experience with and observation of both sets of my grandparents and

other blood relatives, none of them exhibited personality-disordered behaviors

except for my dad's dad: skirt-chaser, abandoned his wife and kids to starve,

died of alcoholism.

-Annie

>

> wow, that's like my family !! my dad grew up in a dirt poor family...they

> lived in a 2 room shack..with 6 kids !! my grandfather lost his job and

> became an alcoholic..they did not have running water in the house..nada came

> from well to do family who were rich by most standards through the

> depression..they always had food, always had a job..yet nada is the one with

> the cheap attitude and a miser !! in our family, my father had a very good

> paying job ( he was making over $100,000 by 1976) yet I remember nada

> buying powered milk you mix with water and mixing that with the 2% to make

> it last longer...we always had day old bread and the way she talked we

> always thought we were one step from the poor farm

>

> Jackie

[Guest guest]

Interesting! You're right, it doesn't sound like there were pd individuals

cropping up in your family tree on either side, or any overtly abusive parenting

going on. I think it would be really useful for researchers to do detailed

family backgrounds on pd individuals going back at least a couple of generations

to help solve the riddle of how pds happen: is it preponderantly generated by

environmental factors, or from genetic predisposition, or even in-utero

conditions (malnutrition? allergic reactions?), or brain damage caused by birth

trauma (forceps?)

I really want to know these things; not sure why, but its important to me.

Maybe I want it to be an organic, measurable, visible, testable brain-damage

kind of thing because then it would be easier to justify removing children from

the care of pd parents. It would perhaps be more obvious that someone who is

measurably brain-injured can't be given the responsibility of child care.

That's probably it.

-Annie

>

> My nadas father died before I was born, and her mother died when I was 2, so

> I didn't know either personally...but my older siblings who did know them

> said grandpa was a very quiet, gentle man. He was born in Bohemia and

> immigrated to WI when he was 11. Grandma was a soft spoken very nice lady

> according to my oldest siblings who remembered her..and she loved horses

> ( so that's where I get if from LOL) nada was the youngest of 9 kids, and I

> knew all of them fairly well since I spent my childhood summers on my aunt

> and uncles farm ( my fathers brother) none of them had BPD or any PD that I

> can remember. Two of nada sisters told me nada was always a spoiled brat

> and threw tantrums and their parents gave in to make her stop. They both

> said no one in the family ever behaved like nada, and they think it was

> because she was allowed to do what she wanted...very little discipline

> because she'd throw her temper tantrums. Grandma and grand pa were in their

> mid 50's when nada was born, and my oldest brother said maybe they were

> just worn out from raising the other 8 and were too tired to fight with nada

> to make her behave. That side of the family doesn't show emotions all that

> much...not much hugging, but they also weren't yellers and didn't point

> out the bad either..just kind of all stuck to themselves..none of them acted

> like nada did.

>

> .my fathers father , when I started hanging around him was no longer

> drinking. He was a very sweet, gentle man !! A total personality change !!

> The grand pa that I knew was always hugging us, always telling us he was

> proud of us...always seemed interested in what we thought or what we were

> doing. My fathers mother died when I was 6, I dont remember much other than

> I always thought she was going to squeeze the life out of me...she was a

> hugger also..both sets of grandparents were only married one time, never

> divorced..

>

> my nada has always sort of hated her mother. Her mother ( the wealthy side

> of the family) was a socialite and very popular, and she got pregnant before

> she and grandpa were married !!! HORRORS !! I never knew this until 1984

> !! I over hear her telling my oldest brother how disgusted she always was

> with grandma ( I didn't know which grandma she was talking about, so I just

> assumed it was the poor uneducated side or my fathers family) Everyone on

> my mothers side of the family went to college and had good jobs. My fathers

> father didn't finish the 8th grade, and my father mother didn't get past

> the 6th...my nada never spoke of her family, at all..so I had to ask my

> aunts and uncles when I was there for the summers...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

> Jackie, I'm beginning to wonder if our nadas were separated at birth, or

> something, lol! Our dads had such uncannily similar backgrounds too. And

> the family dynamics / dysfunctional behaviors of our nadas & dads are really

> similar. Its almost eerie!

>

> If you'd care to share (if I'm not being intrusive) did either set of your

> grandparents have any pds that you know of?

>

> From my experience with and observation of both sets of my grandparents and

> other blood relatives, none of them exhibited personality-disordered

> behaviors except for my dad's dad: skirt-chaser, abandoned his wife and kids

> to starve, died of alcoholism.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Your father's first cousin would be your first cousin once removed.

Yes, it totally baffles me that my emotionally dysregulated, tantrum-pitching,

rageaholic, drama-queen nada came from a quiet, un-dramatic family. No colorful

characters, no loud, back-slapping storytellers, no flamboyant, flirtatious

women on either side of my nada's family tree. They were all just good, decent,

church-going, working folks. Loving but not overly demonstrative. Absolute

non-alcoholics, both sides of nada's family were " tea-totalers " . Nada's dad had

a temper, but he didn't act out. He would get angry at appliances and

mechanical things that didn't work right, and you could see his lips get thin

and his face redden if the TV was full of snow or the car wouldn't start, but

he'd never scream and yell or be terrifying. Nada's mom was extremely quiet and

passive, but sweet.

So go figure where my nada's personality disorder came from. She was the middle

girl of three, and claimed with a trembling voice that she was both neglected

and rejected by her mother and physically abused and terrified by her father.

Neither of her sibs corroborate this; both nada's sisters say they had just an

ordinary, non-abusive childhood. They all shared the same bedroom growing up.

They do not remember any incidents of my mother (or any of them) being beaten,

neglected or traumatized. Neither of my nada's sisters has bpd, they just seem

normal to me, and none of their children have a pd. They're all just so

freaking NORMAL.

My own memories growing up were of repeated incidents of my nada raging at her

own older sister and nobody doing anything about it! The older sister would just

leave the room! My nada had her foo terrorized!

If my nada didn't look so much like both her parents and her siblings, I'd say

she must have been adopted from some crazed, inbred Appalacian gypsy family or

something.

Maybe she got dropped on her head as an infant. Its got to be *something*

mechanical or organic that causes this weird freaking negative behavior.

-Annie

>

> I have no idea about nadas extended family...her aunts, uncles, grand

> parents...and since her parents were older when she was born, she may not

> even know them depending on the birth order of her parents in their

> families...I do know nadas mother converted to catholic from protestant

> because nadas father was catholic, and she's mentioned she looked down on

> her cousins because the catholic religion is " THE " religion ( wow, talk

> about brain washing...and none of nadas kids remained with the catholic

> church, but all her siblings did...) and that they had nothing to do with

> their relatives...this info was from nada, so I take it with a grain of

> salt, although nada has always had the attitude that if your not catholic,

> you're nothing...an interesting thing..I have met my fathers aunt and her

> two children, YEARS ago..she has been gone a long time now...and " cousin

> Charlie " as we called him ( what would he be to me...he was my fathers

> cousin) he died several years ago...what a character !! everyone liked

> him...he was a very out going very talkative guy LOL and when I stayed in

> that area in the summers, my uncle ( dads brother) used to talk about him,

> and take me over there to visit. My fathers family was all mostly poor

> farmers, handymen...smart people, but not school educated..nadas family was

> all highly school educated, smart and standoffish ( think old Polish/German

> type eastern European)

>

>

> Jackie

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Deanna. I feel at this moment, I need to focus a lot on my shame because

I think it is keeping me the most from experiencing significant connections with

other people, joy, and just being present in my day to day living.

I bought a couple books off amazon that talk about releasing shame. One is

Bradshaw's book.

I am also considering buying what is called a " subliminal message " CD that has

proven affective in most cases (though not all). It has been shown to change

behaviors temporarily in other cases. For some people, it does have long-term

benefits. It's more supplemental, though.

Joy

> >

> > Hi Deanna,

> >

> > This list sooo resonates with me. I forgot about the restroom

one...although, it was my grandmother who would shame me for needing to go to

the bathroom. I remember once when I was 7 or 8 in a department store with her

and my sister. She was trying on jackets while my Nada was in another

department.

> >

> > Basically, the restroom was across the floor and we were gradually inching

our way towards it. I had to go so bad I thought I was going to pee my pants. I

had to literally sit down on my leg to keep it from coming out. I was painful

moving gradually from rack to rack like this. Looking back, I can't believe she

did this when there had to have been other people in the store.

> >

> > I told her, I have to go sooo bad though. She said, " well, the whole world

doesn't revolve around YOU. You think everyone has to stop everything they are

doing just for *YOU*?

> >

> > Ick.

> > _____

> >

> > I am curious about this EMDR...does it help with feelings of shame? It seems

so difficult to get rid of shame. I think it's what they call " toxic shame " .

It's impounded sometimes and we have to somehow weave are way out of it through

years of brainwashing.

> >

> > Let me know how the EMDR helps with your feelings of shame. I am curious.

> >

> > Also, here is another article on shame and healing from it you might find

interesting (it's from a Christian standpoint):

> >

> > -Joy

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I have also experienced bodily intrusiveness including not knocking before

entering my bedroom...no matter what. Insisting (even up until I was 15 or 16,

that she be allowed to come into a dressing room with me because she didn't want

to sit or wait outside. Was so glad when I got my own car at 19. Saved up for

it. Anyhow, while in the dressing room with me, she wanted to make sure things

" fit right " since she was usually buying it anyway (I didn't start working until

16 1/2) She would demand I turn around, bend over to see if any *cleavage*

showed, and she would see if my pants fit right by pulling on them.

It was kinda weird because the way she would do it, and if an outsider saw, it

would seem as if I was 5 years old. No boundaries. I hated it. I told her

several times that I didn't like it when she didn't knock, and that I didn't

like it when she was in the dressing room with me. She would always say, " Geez.

You are so modest. I MADE you, so I am *allowed*! Kinda weird.

Also, even if she was just passing through, like in the kitchen for example, and

I or either of my sisters happened to be in her way; she had no inhibitions

about physically pushes (not a hit/shove, but a forceful pushing to get us out

of her way if she had to throw something away, get something out of the cubbard,

wash her hands. I hated this JUST as much as the dressing room and no bedroom

privacy stuff.

Joy

> > > >

> > > > My brother's nasty e-mail and the intense shame I felt when I read it

have prompted me to start EMDR therapy. I was finally recognizing that what I

felt was *shame* and that is different from *guilt.*

> > > >

> > > > Guilt says I made a mistake and shame says I *am* a mistake.

> > > >

> > > > We just started tackling this in EMDR and all these thoughts came up

that explain where I got the message that I'm *bad.*

> > > >

> > > > My nada didn't really call me " bad " that I can remember but she did:

> > > >

> > > > - look at me with intense disgust, OFTEN

> > > > - give me the nickname " Bratinella "

> > > > - ignore my needs, teaching me that I don't matter, such as all of my

emotional needs and even my need to use the restroom

> > > > - get angry with me for not knowing how to do things I'd never been

taught how to do, and occasionally calling me stupid for it

> > > > - minimized all of my feelings, 99.9% of the time. treated me like i was

stupid for crying when my cat was injured

> > > > - telling me children should be seen and not heard

> > > > - saying, with disgust, " you're just like your father "

> > > > - telling me to stop crying or she'll give me something to cry about

> > > > - always, always, always taking the other person's side any time i had a

conflict. ALWAYS asking me what *I* did to cause the problem.

> > > > - as an adult, continuing to talk to me like i was stupid if she did not

agree with me about something

> > > > - constantly telling me to come home in an hour so i wouldn't *wear out "

my welcome

> > > > - showing fury towards me because she had to do things like cook and

clean and telling me *I'm not your n*gger "

> > > > - banging on the door because i was using too much water showering.

like i didn't deserve to take a shower long enough to wash and shampoo my hair

and shave my legs

> > > > - constantly belittling me for having feelings because other people have

it worse

> > > >

> > > > Well, I'm sure there's more, but this is a pretty good start. While she

wasn't telling me directly " YOU ARE BAD " , I think these things, from the reading

I have done, were ways of controlling my behavior using shame.

> > > >

> > > > My brother is passing this on to his children. *sigh*

> > > >

> > > > Here's an excellent article on shame:

> > > >

> > > > http://www.nospank.net/grille3.htm

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Deanna

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting similarity in dynamics, indeed.

My father's (or maybe Fada?) side was also poor (my father had one brother and

two sisters, and none of them went to college). There was abuse on this side of

the family, also. My father was verbally and physically abuse to my mother and

half-brother, but not towards me or my sisters for some reason. However, I

remember (before my parents divorced when I was eight), that he became angry a

lot and at small things and would have tantrums and yell and holler about this

or that for one or two hours. If not at my mother, than at my brother or at " the

room " . He was also heavily into politics and spoke of the injustice of this or

that and how it was ruining the country. My father did not go to college, but

his brother did and he is now a computer engineer and owns his own company. I

haven't heard much about my father in recent years. Last time I heard, he

dabbled in real estate with a partner, but they broke up and he had moved 3

after that, and stayed with a friend for a year and wasn't working. Then, the

friend got fed up so he went to an old high school friend in a different state

and stayed there for awhile. However this is all according to my Nada who kept

tabs on him when the government found my father and forced him to pay years of

back-pay for child support that he attempted to dodge (successfully) for over 15

years.

My Nada grew up in an upper-middle class family, and everyone on her side went

to college. Her parents, however, were lower-middle class. I wouldn't consider

them dirt-poor, but they certainly were not wealthy and there was some monetary

struggles on my Nada's grandmother's side during the Depression when her father

died of a heart attack when she was 16. My Nada's father was an

anesthesiologist, and made a lot of money, and Nada's three brothers and Nada

all went to college all expenses paid. They all make a good some of money. I

would consider them middle class, including my grandparents right now, as my

grandfather has long since retired. My Nada's grandmother also went to college

and became a medical coder before she married my grandfather (than she became

full-time mother/housewife). I would only consider one of my Nada's brothers

(the eldest) to be normal. The other two still live with my grandparents, and

one is extremely anti-social (he will only even use the gym at 3am in the

morning because no one is there) before going to work for 3 hours alone at his

real estate office before than going home the rest of the day and staying in his

room until dinner time. The other uncle has never worked since he was 19 or 20.

He has 3 different degrees (including a Masters), but has not utilized them yet.

I would consider him more normal than the other uncle, though. Maybe he just

likes the free ride? Don't know...none of my business.

My eldest uncle moved out at age 21, and went to school in Mexico than china,

and he now works as a translator & teacher. He is married for 25 or 30 years(no

children), and travels a lot for work so he is not in very much contact with the

rest of the family. My family has the most disdain for me right now, and the

rest goes (to a lesser degree) to this Uncle. Apparently, he did not contact or

write to my grandparents a year after he moved out, and that caused a lot of

chaos. Also, since his visits are infrequent due to his teaching schedule, and

the fact he lives 6 or 7 hours away, my family gets irritated. My grandparents

seemed to have accepted it more or less now though they become irritated from

time to time; but one of the 2 uncles who lives with my grandparents despises

him, and my Nada has also painted him black since 2004...not sure why. It sounds

like she did some fun stuff with him when they were teenagers but that changed

when she found his visiting to be inconsistent. She talks poorly about him to

the rest of the family when opportunity arises.

In the past, she has compared me to him and one of my other uncles whom she

doesn't particularly care for, and said I am like these 2 uncles due to my

selfishness. This stared when I was 16.

She started comparing me more to the eldest uncle (the one who lives 6 or 7

hours away) as I got older. She also began telling my grandmother I was like

him, and that just like him; I always wanted and demanded to have everything MY

way...*what?* this always surprised me because when I lived with her, I would

consider myself a pretty passive person compared to how I am now. I think she

just saw I was becoming more independent and it PO'ed her.

In a nutshell, I don't know how these strange dynamics came about or how these

different personalities (esp my Nadas!) formed from my grandparents. I will say

that from living with my grandparents, I experienced that both of them used

shaming as a way of keeping my sisters and I in line, and my grandmother used

vicious threats and control mechanisms that my nada has used. I wouldn't

consider her bpd, but maybe she has a pd or low self esteem. My grandfather had

a bad temper, usually directed at things/mechanical failures, but would

sometimes vent it on other people. I once forgot to close a screen door, and he

said, " whoever did this, has shit for brains! " ...it's funny, because my Nada

once wrote on a paper note taped to the toilet when I was 17 or 18: " Shit for

brains: do not flush dental floss down toilet " I remember seeing it, and

thinking, that's odd, I've never heard her use that before, but I knew she got

it from my grandfather, and I luckily was not much affected by it. At this age,

I recognized the pattern somehow, and I thought it was kinda funny and childish.

I remember when I was younger (and my sisters, too) would hug my Nada's

grandfather more than my grandmother...never on purpose, he was just more

demonstrative and it felt comfortable. Hugging my Nada's grandmother was felt

more unnatural. Like she would tense up or something. I remember my Nada

directing my sisters and I (in private) to " remember to hug your

grandmother--she needs it! " I'm surprised my Nada noticed or even came to this

conclusion...looking back, she had great moments of clarity in glaring contrast

to the other times...looking back they are sad and lonely glimpses in moments of

false hope.

Sorry this is so long. I've never written about my family background in such

detail before.

-Joy

> >

> > wow, that's like my family !! my dad grew up in a dirt poor family...they

> > lived in a 2 room shack..with 6 kids !! my grandfather lost his job and

> > became an alcoholic..they did not have running water in the house..nada came

> > from well to do family who were rich by most standards through the

> > depression..they always had food, always had a job..yet nada is the one with

> > the cheap attitude and a miser !! in our family, my father had a very good

> > paying job ( he was making over $100,000 by 1976) yet I remember nada

> > buying powered milk you mix with water and mixing that with the 2% to make

> > it last longer...we always had day old bread and the way she talked we

> > always thought we were one step from the poor farm

> >

> > Jackie

>

[Guest guest]

LOL, Jackie, you said: " ..I'd just shrug my shoulders and say I cant control

what he does LOL .. "

I giggled when I read this because I imagine this statement flooring a b cluster

type person. I don't see it reaching their logic even though it is true.

I had rare moments (I think when I was past 18) where I would say something, not

anything punitive...but simply the TRUTH without much thought, as you had.

Often, it would cause some sort of defensive or trite remark on nada's part, but

every so often, she would say nothing. She would just be...puzzled. A few times,

it was like she was about to say something, then stopped in mid air, with her

mouth slightly open as if something stopped her brain.

For whatever reason, one of these times happened to be when she was going on and

on (as often she did) about what my long, long ago estranged father was doing.

She would say how he is complaining to the child insurance collectors about this

or that, and he is traveling from friend to friend complaining about her and

being vindictive or whatever.

I think I reached a point where I just didn't care or sympathize with her in

this regard. I said to her: " Wow, he's wasting his life. " I meant it, but it was

more of an indirect way to set my boundary. I didn't understand why she seemed

stunned but in a puzzled sort of way, and she opened her mouth to say something,

and then just stopped, as if looking off into the distance.

I wonder about it now, and looking back it's kind of funny, because maybe on

some level, she realized that she was doing the same thing as him? Not really

sure. I wasn't trying to insinuate it at the time, but I think that's what

happened in the basic statement. Or, she might have been using this type of

victim card for so long and validate her acting out or whatever, and was

surprised I know longer sympathized with her.

-Joy

>

> oh, I always had to bathe with my sister...but at least that's OK...never

> with a brother, that is SO wrong !!..but I was 12 before I could shower

> alone.. and yes, I've timed it too, and I skipped shaving and still wasn't

> fast enough to prevent the banging on the door LOL I have very light very

> fine slow growing hair, so I only had to shave one a week. Once I was

> married, hubby would take extra extra long showers at nadas...and she'd be

> pacing back and forth, she wouldn't bang on the door, but she would yell at

> me because he was taking too long..I'd just shrug my shoulders and say I

> cant control what he does LOL ..oh, we were upper middle class...my dad was

> making over $100,000 in the mid 1970's !! nada was ( and still is) very

> very cheap...yes, your posts, Annies, and a few others I'd swear we all grew

> up in the same house !!

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

>

> Jackie, your posts almost always remind me of my nada. They sound very

> similar.

>

> As to the shower timing, one time I decided to try and shower as fast as I

> could to see if maybe I *was* taking too long. I shaved my legs, soaped up,

> shampooed, and WHAM here she is banging on the door. It was physically

> impossible to get myself clean and shaved in the time she allotted. When I

> was 5, she stated making me shower with my brother, *who was 12* to save

> water. That didn't last long, but talk about inappropriate!

>

> And we were middle class, for heaven's sake! Not like we couldn't pay the

> water bill. It's just like, " how dare you need water, how dare you need

> clean clothes, how dare you have fun, how dare you have feelings, how dare

> you cry, how dare you want a frickin gumball from the machine, how dare you

> speak, HOW DARE YOU EXIST! "

>

> Deanna

>

[Guest guest]

*oops, I meant to say no one from my father's side went to college except his

brother. -Joy

> > >

> > > wow, that's like my family !! my dad grew up in a dirt poor family...they

> > > lived in a 2 room shack..with 6 kids !! my grandfather lost his job and

> > > became an alcoholic..they did not have running water in the house..nada

came

> > > from well to do family who were rich by most standards through the

> > > depression..they always had food, always had a job..yet nada is the one

with

> > > the cheap attitude and a miser !! in our family, my father had a very

good

> > > paying job ( he was making over $100,000 by 1976) yet I remember nada

> > > buying powered milk you mix with water and mixing that with the 2% to

make

> > > it last longer...we always had day old bread and the way she talked we

> > > always thought we were one step from the poor farm

> > >

> > > Jackie

> >

>