Re: Re: I'm beginning to understand shaming better

[Guest guest]

oh, I always had to bathe with my sister...but at least that's OK...never

with a brother, that is SO wrong !!..but I was 12 before I could shower

alone.. and yes, I've timed it too, and I skipped shaving and still wasn't

fast enough to prevent the banging on the door LOL I have very light very

fine slow growing hair, so I only had to shave one a week. Once I was

married, hubby would take extra extra long showers at nadas...and she'd be

pacing back and forth, she wouldn't bang on the door, but she would yell at

me because he was taking too long..I'd just shrug my shoulders and say I

cant control what he does LOL ..oh, we were upper middle class...my dad was

making over $100,000 in the mid 1970's !! nada was ( and still is) very

very cheap...yes, your posts, Annies, and a few others I'd swear we all grew

up in the same house !!

Jackie

Jackie, your posts almost always remind me of my nada. They sound very

similar.

As to the shower timing, one time I decided to try and shower as fast as I

could to see if maybe I *was* taking too long. I shaved my legs, soaped up,

shampooed, and WHAM here she is banging on the door. It was physically

impossible to get myself clean and shaved in the time she allotted. When I

was 5, she stated making me shower with my brother, *who was 12* to save

water. That didn't last long, but talk about inappropriate!

And we were middle class, for heaven's sake! Not like we couldn't pay the

water bill. It's just like, " how dare you need water, how dare you need

clean clothes, how dare you have fun, how dare you have feelings, how dare

you cry, how dare you want a frickin gumball from the machine, how dare you

speak, HOW DARE YOU EXIST! "

Deanna

[Guest guest]

and nada used to say those things to me ( minus the bastard part) about all

she does for me...when I was in high school, and she yelled that, I yelled

back it's the law, you HAVE to feed, clothe. educate and put a roof over my

head !! Nada was NOT happy...I'm surprised I made it to adulthood LOL

Jackie

" How dare you have needs? " screams the pd parent (in so many words,) " How

dare you want affection or attention? You should be down on your knees

thanking me that you're even fed, clothed and have a place to sleep, you

ungrateful little bitch/bastard! "

Why do these people even have children in the first place, is what I'd like

to know!

-Annie

[Guest guest]

mine didn't !! she did grow up during the depression, but has said that no

one in her family lost their jobs, and they had pretty good paying jobs for

the times at that ! so I dont know why my nada is so cheap...

Jackie

Yes, my nada grew up poor.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

wow, that's like my family !! my dad grew up in a dirt poor family...they

lived in a 2 room shack..with 6 kids !! my grandfather lost his job and

became an alcoholic..they did not have running water in the house..nada came

from well to do family who were rich by most standards through the

depression..they always had food, always had a job..yet nada is the one with

the cheap attitude and a miser !! in our family, my father had a very good

paying job ( he was making over $100,000 by 1976) yet I remember nada

buying powered milk you mix with water and mixing that with the 2% to make

it last longer...we always had day old bread and the way she talked we

always thought we were one step from the poor farm

Jackie

My dad grew up in extreme poverty in a broken home (during the Great

Depression) but he didn't have weird, punitive, intrusive, miserly behaviors

revolving around food, how much water we used, clothing, etc. as an adult.

He was a generous-hearted man.

My nada grew up in a middle-class home (intact family, her dad kept his job

during the Great Depression, there was no danger of starvation) and yet nada

had bizarre behaviors revolving around material goods that she was actually

proud of, such as never buying anything that wasn't on sale, buying old

bread from the bakery, etc. as though we were quite poor when in truth my

dad had a good paying upper-middle-class job. And she was controlling and

intrusive with our bodies (Sister's and mine) letting us have no normal

privacy boundaries, yet would not defend me and would take the other

person's side when I had problems at school or with a neighbor kid, etc.

Whatever was wrong was always my fault.

So yes, the personality disordered brain seems to just have a very warped

and skewed way of processing reality, and causes behaviors that are

sometimes 180 degrees opposite of what would be an obviously appropriate,

normal and rational response to ordinary daily events and stresses.

Bpds just aren't qualified to raise children: their dysfunction shows up

most glaringly in their inability to properly care for their children's

emotional needs. Emotional stability, centered and rational thinking, and

the capacity for empathy is their least functional area.

I'm in an extremely angry mood today, and thinking extreme thoughts;

pregnant women ought to be screened for Cluster B personality disorders and

the children removed from the ones who have it at birth. Being raised in a

orphanage has got to be better than being raised by a personality disordered

mother, seems to me. Grrr.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

my nada, like yours would be very resentful about having to take me to the

bathroom...she would, but then would grumble and complain about it the whole

time about how I can't " control myself " like normal people...

Jackie

That was terrible of her to ignore you. A similar thing happened to me when

my nada would not take me to the (nearby) restroom, even though I kept

telling her I couldn't hold it. When I finally told her that I had pooped

my pants (I was 5 years old), I was so afraid she would yell at me, but she

didn't. She just told me we would go to the bathroom *in a minute*. So I

had to walk around in my own waste. If I had been in charge of a kid and

that had happened, I would have been all over my self with apologies and I

would have dropped everything to take her to the bathroom, and resolved to

her that I would *listen* to her the next time.

My nada, however, couldn't be bothered to take care of me at that moment.

It felt like what your grandmother said to you, like she thought " YOU can't

tell ME when to take you to the bathroom. "

I was ashamed of this incident well into my adulthood until I realized that

it was *nada* that should be ashamed, not me.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

My nadas father died before I was born, and her mother died when I was 2, so

I didn't know either personally...but my older siblings who did know them

said grandpa was a very quiet, gentle man. He was born in Bohemia and

immigrated to WI when he was 11. Grandma was a soft spoken very nice lady

according to my oldest siblings who remembered her..and she loved horses

( so that's where I get if from LOL) nada was the youngest of 9 kids, and I

knew all of them fairly well since I spent my childhood summers on my aunt

and uncles farm ( my fathers brother) none of them had BPD or any PD that I

can remember. Two of nada sisters told me nada was always a spoiled brat

and threw tantrums and their parents gave in to make her stop. They both

said no one in the family ever behaved like nada, and they think it was

because she was allowed to do what she wanted...very little discipline

because she'd throw her temper tantrums. Grandma and grand pa were in their

mid 50's when nada was born, and my oldest brother said maybe they were

just worn out from raising the other 8 and were too tired to fight with nada

to make her behave. That side of the family doesn't show emotions all that

much...not much hugging, but they also weren't yellers and didn't point

out the bad either..just kind of all stuck to themselves..none of them acted

like nada did.

..my fathers father , when I started hanging around him was no longer

drinking. He was a very sweet, gentle man !! A total personality change !!

The grand pa that I knew was always hugging us, always telling us he was

proud of us...always seemed interested in what we thought or what we were

doing. My fathers mother died when I was 6, I dont remember much other than

I always thought she was going to squeeze the life out of me...she was a

hugger also..both sets of grandparents were only married one time, never

divorced..

my nada has always sort of hated her mother. Her mother ( the wealthy side

of the family) was a socialite and very popular, and she got pregnant before

she and grandpa were married !!! HORRORS !! I never knew this until 1984

!! I over hear her telling my oldest brother how disgusted she always was

with grandma ( I didn't know which grandma she was talking about, so I just

assumed it was the poor uneducated side or my fathers family) Everyone on

my mothers side of the family went to college and had good jobs. My fathers

father didn't finish the 8th grade, and my father mother didn't get past

the 6th...my nada never spoke of her family, at all..so I had to ask my

aunts and uncles when I was there for the summers...

Jackie

Jackie, I'm beginning to wonder if our nadas were separated at birth, or

something, lol! Our dads had such uncannily similar backgrounds too. And

the family dynamics / dysfunctional behaviors of our nadas & dads are really

similar. Its almost eerie!

If you'd care to share (if I'm not being intrusive) did either set of your

grandparents have any pds that you know of?

From my experience with and observation of both sets of my grandparents and

other blood relatives, none of them exhibited personality-disordered

behaviors except for my dad's dad: skirt-chaser, abandoned his wife and kids

to starve, died of alcoholism.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

I have no idea about nadas extended family...her aunts, uncles, grand

parents...and since her parents were older when she was born, she may not

even know them depending on the birth order of her parents in their

families...I do know nadas mother converted to catholic from protestant

because nadas father was catholic, and she's mentioned she looked down on

her cousins because the catholic religion is " THE " religion ( wow, talk

about brain washing...and none of nadas kids remained with the catholic

church, but all her siblings did...) and that they had nothing to do with

their relatives...this info was from nada, so I take it with a grain of

salt, although nada has always had the attitude that if your not catholic,

you're nothing...an interesting thing..I have met my fathers aunt and her

two children, YEARS ago..she has been gone a long time now...and " cousin

Charlie " as we called him ( what would he be to me...he was my fathers

cousin) he died several years ago...what a character !! everyone liked

him...he was a very out going very talkative guy LOL and when I stayed in

that area in the summers, my uncle ( dads brother) used to talk about him,

and take me over there to visit. My fathers family was all mostly poor

farmers, handymen...smart people, but not school educated..nadas family was

all highly school educated, smart and standoffish ( think old Polish/German

type eastern European)

Jackie

Interesting! You're right, it doesn't sound like there were pd individuals

cropping up in your family tree on either side, or any overtly abusive

parenting going on. I think it would be really useful for researchers to do

detailed family backgrounds on pd individuals going back at least a couple

of generations to help solve the riddle of how pds happen: is it

preponderantly generated by environmental factors, or from genetic

predisposition, or even in-utero conditions (malnutrition? allergic

reactions?), or brain damage caused by birth trauma (forceps?)

I really want to know these things; not sure why, but its important to me.

Maybe I want it to be an organic, measurable, visible, testable brain-damage

kind of thing because then it would be easier to justify removing children

from the care of pd parents. It would perhaps be more obvious that someone

who is measurably brain-injured can't be given the responsibility of child

care.

That's probably it.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

thanks Annie, I wasn't sure about the cousins/first cousins and removing

them LOL

like your nada, mine came from a " normal " household where the tempers were

held in check and while they were a little distant with hugging and

kissing, they showed affection in other ways, like telling the person they

did a good job ( which my nada never ever uttered those words to any of us

!!) I can only guess nadas BPD came from genetics ( maybe a little from

both sides ? although none of the other 8 kids had anything like her) my

nada never claimed to be abused at all, ever...

Jackie

Your father's first cousin would be your first cousin once removed.

Yes, it totally baffles me that my emotionally dysregulated,

tantrum-pitching, rageaholic, drama-queen nada came from a quiet,

un-dramatic family. No colorful characters, no loud, back-slapping

storytellers, no flamboyant, flirtatious women on either side of my nada's

family tree. They were all just good, decent, church-going, working folks.

Loving but not overly demonstrative. Absolute non-alcoholics, both sides of

nada's family were " tea-totalers " . Nada's dad had a temper, but he didn't

act out. He would get angry at appliances and mechanical things that didn't

work right, and you could see his lips get thin and his face redden if the

TV was full of snow or the car wouldn't start, but he'd never scream and

yell or be terrifying. Nada's mom was extremely quiet and passive, but

sweet.

So go figure where my nada's personality disorder came from. She was the

middle girl of three, and claimed with a trembling voice that she was both

neglected and rejected by her mother and physically abused and terrified by

her father. Neither of her sibs corroborate this; both nada's sisters say

they had just an ordinary, non-abusive childhood. They all shared the same

bedroom growing up. They do not remember any incidents of my mother (or any

of them) being beaten, neglected or traumatized. Neither of my nada's

sisters has bpd, they just seem normal to me, and none of their children

have a pd. They're all just so freaking NORMAL.

My own memories growing up were of repeated incidents of my nada raging at

her own older sister and nobody doing anything about it! The older sister

would just leave the room! My nada had her foo terrorized!

If my nada didn't look so much like both her parents and her siblings, I'd

say she must have been adopted from some crazed, inbred Appalacian gypsy

family or something.

Maybe she got dropped on her head as an infant. Its got to be *something*

mechanical or organic that causes this weird freaking negative behavior.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

thanks, my oldest brother did all the genealogy stuff and we know the

names...bt they're all long dead now...nada is the youngest in the family

and she's 85. But none of that stuff says if any of them had a PD...

Jackie

> I have no idea about nadas extended family...her aunts, uncles, grand

> parents...and since her parents were older when she was born, she may not

> even know them depending on the birth order of her parents in their

> families...I do know nadas mother converted to catholic from protestant

> because nadas father was catholic, and she's mentioned she looked down on

> her cousins because the catholic religion is " THE " religion ( wow, talk

> about brain washing...

Well ,maybe you won't listen cuz of the way I answered your last post-I'm

sorry, I understand your frustration with stuff.

But you can find all of that out. I have done genealogy, found out my

ancestral line had some kinks in it, and my ancestor's were the founders

ofthe first white settlement in the shenandoah valley. If you want, if you

know your mother's age, you an usually request her birth certificate from

the state she lived in under the genealogy and relatives exceptions most

states provide for. Using that, the 1940 census is coming up, and that plus

the 1930's one will give you an idea of

1. who her family was, and

2. who was in it.

Marriage records and divorces are public records, so you can order those

then, and find out who they were and where they came from-most list the

people's parents, country of origin, etc.

Then you can go to ancestry.com or rootswe.com, and look them up, and

contact other people. I was, usi ng my mothers already found info and mine,

able to ascertain what genetic problems occur in my famiyl and how they go

that way-and that solved a whole entire block of problems for me.

you can also use the social security death records ssdi.rootsweb.com to find

out where thye lived anddied, and if you order the records, they'll tell

parent's names, and what they died from.

With all this info, and Wayne County, MI land records, I was able to figure

out my honey's maternal Grandpa died at 35 in 1965, and he was the seventh

in a row with his first middle and last names, and that their land was

bought up and sold for a highway in 1965-that the family lied, there was not

a divorce, he just " died " in a funny way, early.

My mother's side lists off 3 of her 4 grandparents dying in mental

hospitals, and were swedenbogians, which explains the source of her crazy

comments, and sincei nthe 19th century that was the equivalent of

scientology, and isthe source of most of the health and wealth gospels, and

the resultant idea that people cause their situatiosn and reality-including

wealth-by their mental thoughts. It's one source of her abusing us by

claiming we were causing our own problems, and her imagining inanimate

objects were out to get her.

and none of nadas kids remained with the catholic

> church, but all her siblings did...) and that they had nothing to do with

> their relatives...this info was from nada, so I take it with a grain of

> salt, although nada has always had the attitude that if your not

> catholic,

> you're nothing...an interesting thing..

I have catholics tell me that now, including stating, by a catholic deacon,

that if we converted our harassment in town would stop. I have made it a

point now to NEVER convert, and continually publicly ridicule them every

chance I get.

Wow, you seem to have been thru what we go thru now.

I have met my fathers aunt and her

> two children, YEARS ago..she has been gone a long time now...and " cousin

> Charlie " as we called him ( what would he be to me...he was my fathers

> cousin) he died several years ago...what a character !! everyone liked

> him...he was a very out going very talkative guy LOL and when I stayed in

> that area in the summers, my uncle ( dads brother) used to talk about him,

> and take me over there to visit. My fathers family was all mostly poor

> farmers, handymen...smart people, but not school educated..nadas family

> was

> all highly school educated, smart and standoffish ( think old

> Polish/German

> type eastern European)

Old Germans had superiority complexes in some cases. If you choose to pursue

it, you can often find out more.

Good luck.

[Guest guest]

oh, I know what you mean !! Nada controls my fathers every living

breath...she tells him when to go to the toilet !! ( right after her so they

only have to flush the toilet once !! They are NOT poor !!) and once nada

told me I better get better control over hubby if I wanted the marriage to

last LOL...I told her once he was a big boy and could make his own

decisions...that made her mad !!

Jackie

LOL, Jackie, you said: " ..I'd just shrug my shoulders and say I cant control

what he does LOL .. "

I giggled when I read this because I imagine this statement flooring a b

cluster type person. I don't see it reaching their logic even though it is

true.

I had rare moments (I think when I was past 18) where I would say something,

not anything punitive...but simply the TRUTH without much thought, as you

had. Often, it would cause some sort of defensive or trite remark on nada's

part, but every so often, she would say nothing. She would just

be...puzzled. A few times, it was like she was about to say something, then

stopped in mid air, with her mouth slightly open as if something stopped her

brain.

For whatever reason, one of these times happened to be when she was going on

and on (as often she did) about what my long, long ago estranged father was

doing. She would say how he is complaining to the child insurance collectors

about this or that, and he is traveling from friend to friend complaining

about her and being vindictive or whatever.

I think I reached a point where I just didn't care or sympathize with her in

this regard. I said to her: " Wow, he's wasting his life. " I meant it, but it

was more of an indirect way to set my boundary. I didn't understand why she

seemed stunned but in a puzzled sort of way, and she opened her mouth to say

something, and then just stopped, as if looking off into the distance.

I wonder about it now, and looking back it's kind of funny, because maybe on

some level, she realized that she was doing the same thing as him? Not

really sure. I wasn't trying to insinuate it at the time, but I think that's

what happened in the basic statement. Or, she might have been using this

type of victim card for so long and validate her acting out or whatever, and

was surprised I know longer sympathized with her.

-Joy

[Guest guest]

Joy, your nada, my nada and Annies nada had no aboues and no other PD's in

the family...that proves it much be genetic, not only from a bad

environment. And if it were just bad environment, we'd ALL have some sort

of pd with the childhoods we had !!

Jackie

Interesting similarity in dynamics, indeed.

My father's (or maybe Fada?) side was also poor (my father had one brother

and two sisters, and none of them went to college). There was abuse on this

side of the family, also. My father was verbally and physically abuse to my

mother and half-brother, but not towards me or my sisters for some reason.

However, I remember (before my parents divorced when I was eight), that he

became angry a lot and at small things and would have tantrums and yell and

holler about this or that for one or two hours. If not at my mother, than at

my brother or at " the room " . He was also heavily into politics and spoke of

the injustice of this or that and how it was ruining the country. My father

did not go to college, but his brother did and he is now a computer engineer

and owns his own company. I haven't heard much about my father in recent

years. Last time I heard, he dabbled in real estate with a partner, but they

broke up and he had moved 3 after that, and stayed with a friend for a year

and wasn't working. Then, the friend got fed up so he went to an old high

school friend in a different state and stayed there for awhile. However this

is all according to my Nada who kept tabs on him when the government found

my father and forced him to pay years of back-pay for child support that he

attempted to dodge (successfully) for over 15 years.

My Nada grew up in an upper-middle class family, and everyone on her side

went to college. Her parents, however, were lower-middle class. I wouldn't

consider them dirt-poor, but they certainly were not wealthy and there was

some monetary struggles on my Nada's grandmother's side during the

Depression when her father died of a heart attack when she was 16. My Nada's

father was an anesthesiologist, and made a lot of money, and Nada's three

brothers and Nada all went to college all expenses paid. They all make a

good some of money. I would consider them middle class, including my

grandparents right now, as my grandfather has long since retired. My Nada's

grandmother also went to college and became a medical coder before she

married my grandfather (than she became full-time mother/housewife). I would

only consider one of my Nada's brothers (the eldest) to be normal. The other

two still live with my grandparents, and one is extremely anti-social (he

will only even use the gym at 3am in the morning because no one is there)

before going to work for 3 hours alone at his real estate office before than

going home the rest of the day and staying in his room until dinner time.

The other uncle has never worked since he was 19 or 20. He has 3 different

degrees (including a Masters), but has not utilized them yet. I would

consider him more normal than the other uncle, though. Maybe he just likes

the free ride? Don't know...none of my business.

My eldest uncle moved out at age 21, and went to school in Mexico than

china, and he now works as a translator & teacher. He is married for 25 or

30 years(no children), and travels a lot for work so he is not in very much

contact with the rest of the family. My family has the most disdain for me

right now, and the rest goes (to a lesser degree) to this Uncle. Apparently,

he did not contact or write to my grandparents a year after he moved out,

and that caused a lot of chaos. Also, since his visits are infrequent due to

his teaching schedule, and the fact he lives 6 or 7 hours away, my family

gets irritated. My grandparents seemed to have accepted it more or less now

though they become irritated from time to time; but one of the 2 uncles who

lives with my grandparents despises him, and my Nada has also painted him

black since 2004...not sure why. It sounds like she did some fun stuff with

him when they were teenagers but that changed when she found his visiting to

be inconsistent. She talks poorly about him to the rest of the family when

opportunity arises.

In the past, she has compared me to him and one of my other uncles whom she

doesn't particularly care for, and said I am like these 2 uncles due to my

selfishness. This stared when I was 16.

She started comparing me more to the eldest uncle (the one who lives 6 or 7

hours away) as I got older. She also began telling my grandmother I was like

him, and that just like him; I always wanted and demanded to have everything

MY way...*what?* this always surprised me because when I lived with her, I

would consider myself a pretty passive person compared to how I am now. I

think she just saw I was becoming more independent and it PO'ed her.

In a nutshell, I don't know how these strange dynamics came about or how

these different personalities (esp my Nadas!) formed from my grandparents. I

will say that from living with my grandparents, I experienced that both of

them used shaming as a way of keeping my sisters and I in line, and my

grandmother used vicious threats and control mechanisms that my nada has

used. I wouldn't consider her bpd, but maybe she has a pd or low self

esteem. My grandfather had a bad temper, usually directed at

things/mechanical failures, but would sometimes vent it on other people. I

once forgot to close a screen door, and he said, " whoever did this, has shit

for brains! " ...it's funny, because my Nada once wrote on a paper note taped

to the toilet when I was 17 or 18: " Shit for brains: do not flush dental

floss down toilet " I remember seeing it, and thinking, that's odd, I've

never heard her use that before, but I knew she got it from my grandfather,

and I luckily was not much affected by it. At this age, I recognized the

pattern somehow, and I thought it was kinda funny and childish.

I remember when I was younger (and my sisters, too) would hug my Nada's

grandfather more than my grandmother...never on purpose, he was just more

demonstrative and it felt comfortable. Hugging my Nada's grandmother was

felt more unnatural. Like she would tense up or something. I remember my

Nada directing my sisters and I (in private) to " remember to hug your

grandmother--she needs it! " I'm surprised my Nada noticed or even came to

this conclusion...looking back, she had great moments of clarity in glaring

contrast to the other times...looking back they are sad and lonely glimpses

in moments of false hope.

Sorry this is so long. I've never written about my family background in such

detail before.

-Joy

[Guest guest]

I agree, Annie, it just HAS to be more then environment...were forceps

around way back then ?? maybe they used an OB chain like with cows...but I

suppose a " problem " with the pregnancy could cause chemical changes to the

fetus...

Jackie

I agree with some caveats: it could be genetic (my favorite hypothesis:

inheriting multiple sets of recessive genes, simply the luck of the genetic

roulette wheel) but it could also be congenital, meaning something bad

happens to the fetus while its growing in the uterus. Say, for example, the

mother is malnourished, or alcoholic, or has a bad allergic reaction to a

certain vitamin, or a pregnant mother's wild hormone fluctuations affect a

particular fetus in a particular way, or some other weird, abnormal thing.

Or, maybe the baby is damaged during birth. Forceps used to be employed a

lot more than they are now, and maybe forceps squeeze a baby's brain in a

particular way that results in pd. Or maybe a certain amount of oxygen

deprivation during birth caused brain deterioration in certain areas that

cause pd.

Maybe personality disorder is the very mildest result of oxygen deprivation

in fetuses or newborns? Severe oxygen deprivation results in mental

retardation or death, but maybe just extremely mild oxygen deprivation

affects the parts of the brain relating to emotions and cognition of

emotions?

But like you, I am convinced at this point that something other than *just*

mistreatment by the parents (or *perceived* mistreatment) causes personality

disorder. Its just got to be either a genetic predisposition, or some kind

of organic damage that creates pds. Otherwise, like you said, everyone who

experiences chronic, severe childhood abuse would have a Cluster B

personality disorder.

At least, that's what seems logical to me.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

LOL hm, I guess nada isn't THAT old :-) you didn't find any research to

show this because there probably were (are) not studies like this being

done...

Jackie

According to wikipedia, forceps were used as far back as 1500 BC.

But within the last 30 years or so, difficult or prolonged deliveries that

stress the fetus too much are more often dealt with by Caesarian delivery.

My great-nephew was born recently and they used a kind of big suction cup on

the top of his head to help pull him out. I guess that's the modern

equivalent of a forceps instrument.

But, I haven't run across any research papers that are studying the

possibility that congenital factors or birth difficulties cause specific

kinds of brain damage that result in pds. Its just something that occurred

to me as a possibility. But I'll keep my eyes open for any such research

studies and post to the Group if I find any.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

both my parents and 4 of the 5 kids are right handed...

Jackie

I remember reading of an hypothesis that schizophrenia could possibly be

caused by the mother having contracted a viral infection late in her

pregnancy.I've actually wondered if the same could apply to a severe

disorder like BPD.I don't have a link to research but I'll look to see if

there's anything.The other thing I read about schizophrenia was that

researchers noticed there were clusters of births of diagnosed

schizophrenics during the coldest months of the year in both the northern

and southern hemispheres and the researchers were speculating if that had

some connection to the suspected maternal viral infections.

Having said that,it seems like our nadas here were born pretty much

through out the year.

Annie you might be on to something re birth trauma.I recall my

grandmother claiming to have been " put under " when my father was born--she

woke up and had a baby.I think there was a period in obstetrics during the

30s into the early 50s when women were put under general anesthesia for a

birth,so god knows how the baby was born if the mother wasn't participating

by pushing.

I had a traumatic forceps birth because nada *refused* to push--the

old fashioned head gripping forceps.I don't think that gave me a PD but I

have wondered if it is the reason why I am left handed since I am the ONLY

person in my immediate or extended family who is.From what I have read

handedness is supposed to be genetic.

[Guest guest]

nada is 85 and fada is 87, so I have no idea , but assumed they were born at

home ( although since nada comes from a city, wealthy home, she could have

been born in a hospital) I have heard about them forcing left handed

children to be right handed ( it was for their own good since the world is

made for right handed people LOL) My sister was always left handed( she was

born in 1949) I remember nada always yelling at her because she was

different, like my sister did this on purpose!! and interesting fact (

maybe) my other sister and I do a LOT of things left handed as well, like

shuffle and deal cards because nada taught us how to do it, while she sat

across the table from us...so we mirrored what she did, and some things we

learned to do left handed...this, too , aggravates nada...as for forceps,on

nada I have no idea...nothing was ever said

Jackie

My nada told me she was born left-handed but that back in the 1930s children

were not allowed to write left-handed in school; nada was forced to learn to

use her right hand for writing, and that messed her up and gave her

dyslexia. Just more weird little factoids in my family history. Dad and I:

right-handed, nada and Sister: lefties. Neither dad, Sister or I had

dyslexia. By the time Sister and I were in school in the 1950s/1960s, I'm

pretty sure that children were no longer forced to use their right hand to

write, but I'd have to ask Sister to be sure.

Both my parents were born in their respective homes; no forceps (and no

anesthesia!) Sister and I were both born in hospital; no info RE forceps

use on us, but it was likely because nada said she was knocked out both

times.

-Annie