Jump to content
RemedySpot.com

Re: life being fair

Rate this topic


Guest guest

Recommended Posts

hi ,

no, life isn't fair...not for any of us. it's more important what you do

with that life ...and not sit there and waste it like 2 of my sibling

did...blaming nada for every bit of trouble and unfairness in their

lives...they never applied themselves, they never tried, they were victims,

and played the victim roll perfectly...helpless, they let life pass them

by...and at the end ( MY brother died in 2004 at age 52, my sister will be

61 next month) they have nothing to show for their time here on

earth...sure, my sister had 2 kids...but she didn't DO anything...never

seems to have any joy in life...how sad...please dont go down that

road...life is a struggle for most everyone on this planet...and we fight

because living IS worth it !

Jackie

Good morning all~

Reading the different emails this morning brought to my mind a few things.

The one about childhood trauma being under recognized in the medical field.

This seems counter-intuitive to me, but then again sometimes scientists can

be so ignorant about things beyond their range of study. Thank goodness for

those who pioneered the work in studying childhood trauma. But it made me

think about my own self; it has been hard for me to connect with the damage

that was done to me from various sources. I have tried in therapy, but

curiously no therapist would really 'go there' with me, because of course I

was resistant, the shame being the hardest thing to overcome.

And now when I think of those things, I just don't feel like I want to get

wrapped up in the sadness and helplessness I felt; the vulnerability. And

that is because my current life situation is just too hard, too close to the

'going down the tubes' feeling. So I struggle to move forward and can't

afford to feel anything but what is going on now. That being said, I have

tried to find a therapist but under my insurance, they are either a distance

away or not taking new clients. One was a psy d (which I wanted this time

around) and she had a social worker call me back. I felt put off and did

not want to see a social worker (no offense to them; but I sort of wanted to

try a new approach: analysis, strengths and weaknesses, tools to overcome

resistance; rather than: oh, that sounds terrible, me: cry cry, feel

ashamed. They did what? and: here's your homework, and so on).

So this is where the comment: Life is not fair comes in. I have been really

tortured the past couple years about how this world is. Not for me, but for

all the destitute and victimized. It makes it hard for me to really feel

that my troubles matter, but it also makes me feel hopeless. My: life is

not fair realization has made me feel a bit despairing. But bits of freedom

are starting to peek in. Because I feel that if life is not fair, then if I

have the power in myself to do better for myself, it is up to me to get

somewhere. I don't have to life poorly because of the despair in the world.

The part about Nada's treating children differently...Well I have always

seen this in my family. And what I can see now (especially with my sister

gone) how this set us up for rivalries and disconnectedness. While my

mother always lamented: why can't you all love each other? When she was the

one who set us apart from each other. She was the one who would let my

brother bully me because she did not want to intervene (don't fight...I

can't take it...I am a mental cripple).

I realize how this set us up (at least I know my sister and I had this

issue) against the issue of " fairness " . Not just between us, but with the

world! My sister really struggled with this. Whereas I felt as I got older

it was immature to think that way, inside, I still sure did. My mother acts

the 'waif' but I noticed long ago what power she wielded with that behavior.

In her 'weak' acting, she got all of us attached to her in various ways. My

brother is so sucked in he gets outraged at anyone who causes her discomfort

or trouble. Her perceptions.

I was raised in what you might call a semi upper middle class white family

in America. My dad was a lawyer, my mom was a stay at home mom. She did

not really take care of us past the age of 12 ( she made dinners), and

emotionally neither ever took care of us. We had a decent lifestyle. So

who can complain, right? People don't see behind the facade. People don't

see the learned helplessness, the struggle to overcome tremendous shame, the

deep deep scars and open wounds from multiple suicide attempts and father's

emotional detachment. We seem like a normal family on the outside.

But..... as time went on, people could see the bad things. Only I think

they don't get where it came from.

I am hoping that understanding Life Is Not Fair really does set me free. I

hope that losing my expectations and idealizations will help me to be free.

And that I can live my life better with heart break and not let it pull me

under.

~patricia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jackie~

You know...I guess what I meant was exactly what you described...that there is

this childish need in us for things to be *fair* and it is a cruel lesson in

life that we all have to learn that life isn't fair. Sometimes we can ease this

for our children by teaching it at a young age, but also giving them fair

treatment just to show them that they deserve it; that people can BE fair, but

*life* itself is not fair. I think I learned it a long time ago, with some

adjustments along the way.

That is probably normal; you know, when you might be sort of kicked out of the

*class* (social/economic) you were in, as happened to me when I got divorced and

became a single mom. Or if you get fired from a job, things that happen to

everybody.

My sister had a 'not fair' thing going on; she felt like she was a good person

and it was 'not fair' that her friends abandoned her after her bad period of

drug use and never came back to her. Or 'not fair' that my father paid for a

'fancy' wedding for me and my ex (waste of money in retrospect, but a fun party

at the time) and not give her one when she got married at 17 when pregnant. She

carried these things, which I understand. They indicated to her some personal

flaw that she couldn't figure out. (She was the baby of the family too).

When my dad died and left us kids nothing, I have carried a big " not fair " since

then. I know I should let it go, and what choice do I have? But I guess it is

because it says something about how he thought of us (or that is what I am

assuming); that his wife wouldn't even give us a token amount or any of his

possessions feels like a theft. And there you go again...theft is another 'not

fair' thing in life. Or murder, or any of the bad things that happen.

I do get it. I was musing on it. I carry it sometimes and put down at others.

But I will tell you, I feel there is some inner spark that is telling me to get

going and live my life in the best way I can. For a while after my dad died, I

sort of felt nihilistic, life was not worth living. But after my sister died, I

began to feel that I needed to go a different way and make my life worth living.

It is not that I never felt good in my life; I used to have adventures and feel

happy; it's just that since my divorce and consequent struggles (with money,

aging, school-kid issues, men issues, death) I've felt beaten down. That spark

sort of got really tiny, so tiny I could not even feel it. Being left with my

BPD mom....*not fair* (that's sort of a joke, on my sister, like: thanks ,

for leaving me with mom!).

So...yeah, sometimes I make progress in big ways, and sometimes not so much.

The last time I felt the joy I was used to was in California, when I looked out

onto the pacific from North Beach at Pt. Reyes. The scene took my breath away;

even though I was in the middle of a bad drama with my boyfriend. And the other

time was at the San Francisco Zoo, when I gazed at the giraffes :) and was

mesmerized by the sea otters twirling around each other.

Those things make me glad to know that inner spark is still there....it would be

a shame for it to die.

~patricia

Re: life being fair

hi ,

no, life isn't fair...not for any of us. it's more important what you do

with that life ...and not sit there and waste it like 2 of my sibling

did...blaming nada for every bit of trouble and unfairness in their

lives...they never applied themselves, they never tried, they were victims,

and played the victim roll perfectly...helpless, they let life pass them

by...and at the end ( MY brother died in 2004 at age 52, my sister will be

61 next month) they have nothing to show for their time here on

earth...sure, my sister had 2 kids...but she didn't DO anything...never

seems to have any joy in life...how sad...please dont go down that

road...life is a struggle for most everyone on this planet...and we fight

because living IS worth it !

Jackie

Good morning all~

Reading the different emails this morning brought to my mind a few things.

The one about childhood trauma being under recognized in the medical field.

This seems counter-intuitive to me, but then again sometimes scientists can

be so ignorant about things beyond their range of study. Thank goodness for

those who pioneered the work in studying childhood trauma. But it made me

think about my own self; it has been hard for me to connect with the damage

that was done to me from various sources. I have tried in therapy, but

curiously no therapist would really 'go there' with me, because of course I

was resistant, the shame being the hardest thing to overcome.

And now when I think of those things, I just don't feel like I want to get

wrapped up in the sadness and helplessness I felt; the vulnerability. And

that is because my current life situation is just too hard, too close to the

'going down the tubes' feeling. So I struggle to move forward and can't

afford to feel anything but what is going on now. That being said, I have

tried to find a therapist but under my insurance, they are either a distance

away or not taking new clients. One was a psy d (which I wanted this time

around) and she had a social worker call me back. I felt put off and did

not want to see a social worker (no offense to them; but I sort of wanted to

try a new approach: analysis, strengths and weaknesses, tools to overcome

resistance; rather than: oh, that sounds terrible, me: cry cry, feel

ashamed. They did what? and: here's your homework, and so on).

So this is where the comment: Life is not fair comes in. I have been really

tortured the past couple years about how this world is. Not for me, but for

all the destitute and victimized. It makes it hard for me to really feel

that my troubles matter, but it also makes me feel hopeless. My: life is

not fair realization has made me feel a bit despairing. But bits of freedom

are starting to peek in. Because I feel that if life is not fair, then if I

have the power in myself to do better for myself, it is up to me to get

somewhere. I don't have to life poorly because of the despair in the world.

The part about Nada's treating children differently...Well I have always

seen this in my family. And what I can see now (especially with my sister

gone) how this set us up for rivalries and disconnectedness. While my

mother always lamented: why can't you all love each other? When she was the

one who set us apart from each other. She was the one who would let my

brother bully me because she did not want to intervene (don't fight...I

can't take it...I am a mental cripple).

I realize how this set us up (at least I know my sister and I had this

issue) against the issue of " fairness " . Not just between us, but with the

world! My sister really struggled with this. Whereas I felt as I got older

it was immature to think that way, inside, I still sure did. My mother acts

the 'waif' but I noticed long ago what power she wielded with that behavior.

In her 'weak' acting, she got all of us attached to her in various ways. My

brother is so sucked in he gets outraged at anyone who causes her discomfort

or trouble. Her perceptions.

I was raised in what you might call a semi upper middle class white family

in America. My dad was a lawyer, my mom was a stay at home mom. She did

not really take care of us past the age of 12 ( she made dinners), and

emotionally neither ever took care of us. We had a decent lifestyle. So

who can complain, right? People don't see behind the facade. People don't

see the learned helplessness, the struggle to overcome tremendous shame, the

deep deep scars and open wounds from multiple suicide attempts and father's

emotional detachment. We seem like a normal family on the outside.

But..... as time went on, people could see the bad things. Only I think

they don't get where it came from.

I am hoping that understanding Life Is Not Fair really does set me free. I

hope that losing my expectations and idealizations will help me to be free.

And that I can live my life better with heart break and not let it pull me

under.

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

, you sound 100% normal to me !! we all think this way..sometimes

the unfairness really gets us down. 2009 was a good example, for me.. my

dog died in may of a short but painful bout with bone cancer. She was 8

years old. On the bone cancer list, it seemed everyone elses dog with bone

cancer lived betwen 6 months and a year with it before they died...my dog

lived 6 WEEKS ( NOT FAIR !!) the other dogs on the list with bone cancer

were 10 years and older ( NOT FAIR !!) then my oldest brother died ( so

now they're both gone) My point is, we all feel life isnt fair to us at

times and sometimes we get into a " funk " and cant seem to get out ( this

past year was one for me!!) like the whole world is against us and

everything is trying so hard to make our lives more difficult....it sounds

to me like you were down in a " funk " and are starting to climb back up :-)

I'm sorry your father died and I'm sorry your fathers wife isnt sharing with

you, no, thats not fair...

Jackie

Hi Jackie~

You know...I guess what I meant was exactly what you described...that there

is this childish need in us for things to be *fair* and it is a cruel lesson

in life that we all have to learn that life isn't fair. Sometimes we can

ease this for our children by teaching it at a young age, but also giving

them fair treatment just to show them that they deserve it; that people can

BE fair, but *life* itself is not fair. I think I learned it a long time

ago, with some adjustments along the way.

That is probably normal; you know, when you might be sort of kicked out of

the *class* (social/economic) you were in, as happened to me when I got

divorced and became a single mom. Or if you get fired from a job, things

that happen to everybody.

My sister had a 'not fair' thing going on; she felt like she was a good

person and it was 'not fair' that her friends abandoned her after her bad

period of drug use and never came back to her. Or 'not fair' that my father

paid for a 'fancy' wedding for me and my ex (waste of money in retrospect,

but a fun party at the time) and not give her one when she got married at 17

when pregnant. She carried these things, which I understand. They

indicated to her some personal flaw that she couldn't figure out. (She was

the baby of the family too).

When my dad died and left us kids nothing, I have carried a big " not fair "

since then. I know I should let it go, and what choice do I have? But I

guess it is because it says something about how he thought of us (or that is

what I am assuming); that his wife wouldn't even give us a token amount or

any of his possessions feels like a theft. And there you go again...theft

is another 'not fair' thing in life. Or murder, or any of the bad things

that happen.

I do get it. I was musing on it. I carry it sometimes and put down at

others. But I will tell you, I feel there is some inner spark that is

telling me to get going and live my life in the best way I can. For a while

after my dad died, I sort of felt nihilistic, life was not worth living.

But after my sister died, I began to feel that I needed to go a different

way and make my life worth living. It is not that I never felt good in my

life; I used to have adventures and feel happy; it's just that since my

divorce and consequent struggles (with money, aging, school-kid issues, men

issues, death) I've felt beaten down. That spark sort of got really tiny,

so tiny I could not even feel it. Being left with my BPD mom....*not fair*

(that's sort of a joke, on my sister, like: thanks , for leaving me with

mom!).

So...yeah, sometimes I make progress in big ways, and sometimes not so much.

The last time I felt the joy I was used to was in California, when I looked

out onto the pacific from North Beach at Pt. Reyes. The scene took my

breath away; even though I was in the middle of a bad drama with my

boyfriend. And the other time was at the San Francisco Zoo, when I gazed at

the giraffes :) and was mesmerized by the sea otters twirling around each

other.

Those things make me glad to know that inner spark is still there....it

would be a shame for it to die.

~patricia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Thanks Jackie~ yeah, it is like that some times; and I too, am sorry

about your dog. I was just looking at pictures of my dog from when I was around

15, she was my best friend, so I know it is hard.

It's funny to go: It's not fair!! And sometimes I feel that way. I never

thought my

dad would do such a thing. I honestly cannot understand how he could have. And

as for his wife, I cannot understand how she can with hold from us.

But I understand that is life and I see it all as a place where one can grow in

one direction

(bitterness) or another (joy). I am just hanging out in the middle right now

(the funk).

Thanks for your conversation ~

~patricia

Re: life being fair

, you sound 100% normal to me !! we all think this way..sometimes

the unfairness really gets us down. 2009 was a good example, for me.. my

dog died in may of a short but painful bout with bone cancer. She was 8

years old. On the bone cancer list, it seemed everyone elses dog with bone

cancer lived betwen 6 months and a year with it before they died...my dog

lived 6 WEEKS ( NOT FAIR !!) the other dogs on the list with bone cancer

were 10 years and older ( NOT FAIR !!) then my oldest brother died ( so

now they're both gone) My point is, we all feel life isnt fair to us at

times and sometimes we get into a " funk " and cant seem to get out ( this

past year was one for me!!) like the whole world is against us and

everything is trying so hard to make our lives more difficult....it sounds

to me like you were down in a " funk " and are starting to climb back up :-)

I'm sorry your father died and I'm sorry your fathers wife isnt sharing with

you, no, thats not fair...

Jackie

Hi Jackie~

You know...I guess what I meant was exactly what you described...that there

is this childish need in us for things to be *fair* and it is a cruel lesson

in life that we all have to learn that life isn't fair. Sometimes we can

ease this for our children by teaching it at a young age, but also giving

them fair treatment just to show them that they deserve it; that people can

BE fair, but *life* itself is not fair. I think I learned it a long time

ago, with some adjustments along the way.

That is probably normal; you know, when you might be sort of kicked out of

the *class* (social/economic) you were in, as happened to me when I got

divorced and became a single mom. Or if you get fired from a job, things

that happen to everybody.

My sister had a 'not fair' thing going on; she felt like she was a good

person and it was 'not fair' that her friends abandoned her after her bad

period of drug use and never came back to her. Or 'not fair' that my father

paid for a 'fancy' wedding for me and my ex (waste of money in retrospect,

but a fun party at the time) and not give her one when she got married at 17

when pregnant. She carried these things, which I understand. They

indicated to her some personal flaw that she couldn't figure out. (She was

the baby of the family too).

When my dad died and left us kids nothing, I have carried a big " not fair "

since then. I know I should let it go, and what choice do I have? But I

guess it is because it says something about how he thought of us (or that is

what I am assuming); that his wife wouldn't even give us a token amount or

any of his possessions feels like a theft. And there you go again...theft

is another 'not fair' thing in life. Or murder, or any of the bad things

that happen.

I do get it. I was musing on it. I carry it sometimes and put down at

others. But I will tell you, I feel there is some inner spark that is

telling me to get going and live my life in the best way I can. For a while

after my dad died, I sort of felt nihilistic, life was not worth living.

But after my sister died, I began to feel that I needed to go a different

way and make my life worth living. It is not that I never felt good in my

life; I used to have adventures and feel happy; it's just that since my

divorce and consequent struggles (with money, aging, school-kid issues, men

issues, death) I've felt beaten down. That spark sort of got really tiny,

so tiny I could not even feel it. Being left with my BPD mom....*not fair*

(that's sort of a joke, on my sister, like: thanks , for leaving me with

mom!).

So...yeah, sometimes I make progress in big ways, and sometimes not so much.

The last time I felt the joy I was used to was in California, when I looked

out onto the pacific from North Beach at Pt. Reyes. The scene took my

breath away; even though I was in the middle of a bad drama with my

boyfriend. And the other time was at the San Francisco Zoo, when I gazed at

the giraffes :) and was mesmerized by the sea otters twirling around each

other.

Those things make me glad to know that inner spark is still there....it

would be a shame for it to die.

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thanks ...but it's time to move on ( because we cant dwell on the

bad things in our lives forever) I've mourned Chee's death and probably will

for a long time to come, but I'll be getting a new puppy in the next couple

of weeks, so we're looking forward to that :-) I've been waiting on this

puppy since it was 3 weeks old LOL so things will start to brighten around

here....

with my parents..the will says if one dies first, everything goes to the

remaining one..then when that one dies, us kids get what's left...is it

maybe that way with your fathers wife ?

Jackie

Hey Thanks Jackie~ yeah, it is like that some times; and I too, am sorry

about your dog. I was just looking at pictures of my dog from when I was

around

15, she was my best friend, so I know it is hard.

It's funny to go: It's not fair!! And sometimes I feel that way. I never

thought my

dad would do such a thing. I honestly cannot understand how he could have.

And

as for his wife, I cannot understand how she can with hold from us.

But I understand that is life and I see it all as a place where one can grow

in one direction

(bitterness) or another (joy). I am just hanging out in the middle right

now (the funk).

Thanks for your conversation ~

~patricia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jackie,

What kind of puppy are you getting? That is pretty exciting, I love puppies.

The thing with my dad; he left everything to his wife (including a family

business share

and all his possessions, some of which us kids wanted, which my sister never

got). In

a marriage where there is no divorce, usually it goes to the spouse and then to

the kids. But

this was a situation where my parents were divorced, so all my father's assets

will eventually

go to his wife's children (none of whom need anything financially or care about

my dad's book

collection or civil war papers that he was writing on). Previously (before they

were married) he

sent me a detailed will naming us three kids as the beneficiaries and myself as

the executor.

I understood things would change when he got married, but I still thought he

would leave us

something, since he knew we were all struggling financially (at the very least)

and he has

grandchildren, my sister has four and myself one. One of my sister's kids had

to drop out of college.

It really hurt us all. And it's really hard to understand. I wrote my dad's

wife a nice letter asking

her to help me understand and I asked her if we could have certain things of my

dad's. Sort of

humiliating; especially because she did not write me back. And I sat with her

for hours and hours

in the hospital while my dad was dying.

:P

~patricia

Re: life being fair

thanks ...but it's time to move on ( because we cant dwell on the

bad things in our lives forever) I've mourned Chee's death and probably will

for a long time to come, but I'll be getting a new puppy in the next couple

of weeks, so we're looking forward to that :-) I've been waiting on this

puppy since it was 3 weeks old LOL so things will start to brighten around

here....

with my parents..the will says if one dies first, everything goes to the

remaining one..then when that one dies, us kids get what's left...is it

maybe that way with your fathers wife ?

Jackie

Hey Thanks Jackie~ yeah, it is like that some times; and I too, am sorry

about your dog. I was just looking at pictures of my dog from when I was

around

15, she was my best friend, so I know it is hard.

It's funny to go: It's not fair!! And sometimes I feel that way. I never

thought my

dad would do such a thing. I honestly cannot understand how he could have.

And

as for his wife, I cannot understand how she can with hold from us.

But I understand that is life and I see it all as a place where one can grow

in one direction

(bitterness) or another (joy). I am just hanging out in the middle right

now (the funk).

Thanks for your conversation ~

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

,

What was your relationship with your father like?  I mean, did he periodically

do hurtful and thoughtless things?  Is this one in a series of thoughtless acts,

or is it an aberration?

It could just be he got tired and sick and when we are very sick and very tired

we stop thinking about certain, practical things like writing wills so that the

kids will get something.  We start to hope that either the problem will go away

or that the problem will solve itself.  I have trouble with fatigue, and when I

am very fatigued I don't care if the bills are paid, if I starve, if my students

all fail, or much of anything else that is actually very important to me.  If he

did not get around to writing a will when he was well, he may have just not have

had the energy deal with it when he was sick.

Also, his first wife had a pd.  Could be his second wife is also of questionable

mental health--you never know.  There is often at least some pattern in who we

choose.

Take care,

Ashana

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.

http://in.yahoo.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Ashana,

Well it's a weird thing with my dad...when he first split with my mom, he used

to go visit my sister a lot because she lived somewhat near him and he'd go on

long bike rides. His wife-to-be was still married and would not divorce her

husband, so I think my dad got depressed. But then her husband died

(conveniently) and they started to be together outwardly. He slowly quit going

to see my sister (he had taken us to Washington DC when I was pregnant with my

son, that was 16 years ago). I had contact with my dad, saw him when I went to

visit, phone calls, etc. But he just settled more into his life with Sharon

(his wife). And it pretty much excluded us. I determined that if I was going

to have more of a relationship with him, that I would have to put forth the

effort, so I called more, emailed, and asked him if my son and I could go stay

with them at their summer house (she owned a house at the Jersey shore). He

would check if it was available..but it never was. I wanted to spend time with

him and have him get to know my son more.

I think what happened is that he got the diagnosis. And before he went in for

surgery he made up a will, quickly. Maybe he thought he'd change it later? I

don't know. But I think he was in denial too about when he was dying. So I

sort of get what might have happened. But god, how could he? He was a lawyer!

I understand the possibility but it hurt us so bad. Especially because his wife

won't give us anything. My dad liked to read; I would buy him books for gifts

and he had a collection from my grandfather of limited editions that I would

like. She doesn't read at all. He was writing a book on the civil war...and I

wanted his notes. I just don't understand it; after all, her daughters lost

their father.

She seems 'normal' I even like her. Her daughters are spoiled seeming, esp. the

youngest and she is the one who I wonder if is actually my father's daughter

(when he was dying and she was in the room I noticed that they had a similar

nose). But we were totally left out...at the catholic church service, we were

in the second row; the receiving line got weird and we were around the corner of

chairs, the service was lame as hell I thought. She spent 20,000 dollars on all

of that plus a catered party after. Meanwhile my sister was in very poor health

with two girls, no car, abandoned by her husband, and her daughter had to drop

out of college because she couldn't foresee being able to pay back huge loans.

So intellectually, I sort of get it. But emotionally it is like the abandonment

I always felt from him. He loved me, I know. But he let us go in his later

years. And you know what else....when we were young, he left us to deal with my

mom while he was working extra, or having an affair, or playing golf, or

watching football. Left us to deal with her mental illness. :P

It's one of those things they call complicated grief.... Hard to work through to

forgiveness, love and letting go; especially since my sister died 18 months

later.

**sigh**

thanks for your thoughts, Ashana,

~patricia

ps...this whole thing made me rethink my whole estate/will thing.

Re: life being fair

,

What was your relationship with your father like? I mean, did he periodically

do hurtful and thoughtless things? Is this one in a series of thoughtless acts,

or is it an aberration?

It could just be he got tired and sick and when we are very sick and very

tired we stop thinking about certain, practical things like writing wills so

that the kids will get something. We start to hope that either the problem will

go away or that the problem will solve itself. I have trouble with fatigue, and

when I am very fatigued I don't care if the bills are paid, if I starve, if my

students all fail, or much of anything else that is actually very important to

me. If he did not get around to writing a will when he was well, he may have

just not have had the energy deal with it when he was sick.

Also, his first wife had a pd. Could be his second wife is also of

questionable mental health--you never know. There is often at least some pattern

in who we choose.

Take care,

Ashana

The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.

http://in.yahoo.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

,

It is amazing to read this. I am sorry that it is such a complicated road to

grief. It is complicated enough, I think, working way through our grief of loss

childhoods and working on forgiveness with a mentally ill person who sometimes

shows moments of clarity. So confusing and baffling at times.

I feel a similar way towards my Uncle that you do towards your father. He seems

very happy when I visit, and he occasionally will write a quick email. Overall,

though, he says he will check when is a good time to visit but never does. There

are times he seems like he cares, and other times he is dismissive.

I guess I should have read the signs early on and expected less. When I first

wrote to him, he wrote, " Though I like corresponding with family, I don't reply

as often or as much as I should. I'm quite busy with work, hobbies, and other

interests. "

I wrote back, " Yes, my friend does a similar line of work and it is sporadic and

time-consuming. I understand. " (even though it hurt to write this)..

He said, " You can write when you feel like it. I am not the biggest email

writer, but I try. "

So it was a bit conflicting.

Another time, he wrote: " You are welcome to visit sometime. "

I asked if Dec or March would be better. It turned out that neither were good

with him. (So I felt hurt again).

It could be that I am just setting myself up or making a big deal out of

nothing.

Sometimes, he surprises me because I once had a difficulty with my roommate, and

said I would be moving soon.

He said " okay, good luck. "

A few days later out of no where, he writes: " I think you should talk to your

roommate. She seems like a nice person. Sometimes people are sensitive and

addressing and explaining what you are doing and why could clear things up. "

At this, I was surprised. It was during a long period of yes, no, or good luck

answers. How he figured to right this in response to me telling him I was moving

was moving and odd.

I think I did and still do hold a high expectation of him and my aunt since they

are the only relatives that I am contacting out of my FOO. They are " normal " and

accept the fact that I am NC with everyone else.

But, it is a confusing thing, too. It seems more often than not, I feel sad over

real or imagined rejection, and my feelings end up hurt. :(

-Joy

>

> Hi Ashana,

> Well it's a weird thing with my dad...when he first split with my mom, he used

to go visit my sister a lot because she lived somewhat near him and he'd go on

long bike rides. His wife-to-be was still married and would not divorce her

husband, so I think my dad got depressed. But then her husband died

(conveniently) and they started to be together outwardly. He slowly quit going

to see my sister (he had taken us to Washington DC when I was pregnant with my

son, that was 16 years ago). I had contact with my dad, saw him when I went to

visit, phone calls, etc. But he just settled more into his life with Sharon

(his wife). And it pretty much excluded us. I determined that if I was going

to have more of a relationship with him, that I would have to put forth the

effort, so I called more, emailed, and asked him if my son and I could go stay

with them at their summer house (she owned a house at the Jersey shore). He

would check if it was available..but it never was. I wanted to spend time with

him and have him get to know my son more.

>

> I think what happened is that he got the diagnosis. And before he went in for

surgery he made up a will, quickly. Maybe he thought he'd change it later? I

don't know. But I think he was in denial too about when he was dying. So I

sort of get what might have happened. But god, how could he? He was a lawyer!

I understand the possibility but it hurt us so bad. Especially because his wife

won't give us anything. My dad liked to read; I would buy him books for gifts

and he had a collection from my grandfather of limited editions that I would

like. She doesn't read at all. He was writing a book on the civil war...and I

wanted his notes. I just don't understand it; after all, her daughters lost

their father.

>

> She seems 'normal' I even like her. Her daughters are spoiled seeming, esp.

the youngest and she is the one who I wonder if is actually my father's daughter

(when he was dying and she was in the room I noticed that they had a similar

nose). But we were totally left out...at the catholic church service, we were

in the second row; the receiving line got weird and we were around the corner of

chairs, the service was lame as hell I thought. She spent 20,000 dollars on all

of that plus a catered party after. Meanwhile my sister was in very poor health

with two girls, no car, abandoned by her husband, and her daughter had to drop

out of college because she couldn't foresee being able to pay back huge loans.

>

> So intellectually, I sort of get it. But emotionally it is like the

abandonment I always felt from him. He loved me, I know. But he let us go in

his later years. And you know what else....when we were young, he left us to

deal with my mom while he was working extra, or having an affair, or playing

golf, or watching football. Left us to deal with her mental illness. :P

> It's one of those things they call complicated grief.... Hard to work through

to forgiveness, love and letting go; especially since my sister died 18 months

later.

> **sigh**

> thanks for your thoughts, Ashana,

> ~patricia

> ps...this whole thing made me rethink my whole estate/will thing.

> Re: life being fair

>

>

> ,

>

> What was your relationship with your father like? I mean, did he

periodically do hurtful and thoughtless things? Is this one in a series of

thoughtless acts, or is it an aberration?

>

> It could just be he got tired and sick and when we are very sick and very

tired we stop thinking about certain, practical things like writing wills so

that the kids will get something. We start to hope that either the problem will

go away or that the problem will solve itself. I have trouble with fatigue, and

when I am very fatigued I don't care if the bills are paid, if I starve, if my

students all fail, or much of anything else that is actually very important to

me. If he did not get around to writing a will when he was well, he may have

just not have had the energy deal with it when he was sick.

>

> Also, his first wife had a pd. Could be his second wife is also of

questionable mental health--you never know. There is often at least some pattern

in who we choose.

>

> Take care,

> Ashana

>

>

> The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.

http://in.yahoo.com/

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Joy, I have a couple of very nice cousins who have tried to connect with me

outside of family gatherings. I take their numbers and say I think it would be

lovely but I never, ever call them.

I found (WAY before I went NC) that my nada would get very jealous when I would

spend time with other family members. She would call them after the family

gathering and say, " I saw you talking to Deanna. What did you talk about? "

Cousin might say, " Oh she said she took a knitting class last year. "

Then nada would call me up, CRYING, because SHE didn't know *her own daughter*

had taken a knitting class and boo hoo and whah whah

So I stepped away from my cousins to avoid the nada-drama-conflict. If they are

taking it personally, they are surely beating themselves up for nothing. I knew

my nada would be constantly drilling them and getting jealous and I just didn't

want to deal with it.

Cowardly of me, I know. But it was years before I stood up for myself.

Deanna

> >

> > Hi Ashana,

> > Well it's a weird thing with my dad...when he first split with my mom, he

used to go visit my sister a lot because she lived somewhat near him and he'd go

on long bike rides. His wife-to-be was still married and would not divorce her

husband, so I think my dad got depressed. But then her husband died

(conveniently) and they started to be together outwardly. He slowly quit going

to see my sister (he had taken us to Washington DC when I was pregnant with my

son, that was 16 years ago). I had contact with my dad, saw him when I went to

visit, phone calls, etc. But he just settled more into his life with Sharon

(his wife). And it pretty much excluded us. I determined that if I was going

to have more of a relationship with him, that I would have to put forth the

effort, so I called more, emailed, and asked him if my son and I could go stay

with them at their summer house (she owned a house at the Jersey shore). He

would check if it was available..but it never was. I wanted to spend time with

him and have him get to know my son more.

> >

> > I think what happened is that he got the diagnosis. And before he went in

for surgery he made up a will, quickly. Maybe he thought he'd change it later?

I don't know. But I think he was in denial too about when he was dying. So I

sort of get what might have happened. But god, how could he? He was a lawyer!

I understand the possibility but it hurt us so bad. Especially because his wife

won't give us anything. My dad liked to read; I would buy him books for gifts

and he had a collection from my grandfather of limited editions that I would

like. She doesn't read at all. He was writing a book on the civil war...and I

wanted his notes. I just don't understand it; after all, her daughters lost

their father.

> >

> > She seems 'normal' I even like her. Her daughters are spoiled seeming, esp.

the youngest and she is the one who I wonder if is actually my father's daughter

(when he was dying and she was in the room I noticed that they had a similar

nose). But we were totally left out...at the catholic church service, we were

in the second row; the receiving line got weird and we were around the corner of

chairs, the service was lame as hell I thought. She spent 20,000 dollars on all

of that plus a catered party after. Meanwhile my sister was in very poor health

with two girls, no car, abandoned by her husband, and her daughter had to drop

out of college because she couldn't foresee being able to pay back huge loans.

> >

> > So intellectually, I sort of get it. But emotionally it is like the

abandonment I always felt from him. He loved me, I know. But he let us go in

his later years. And you know what else....when we were young, he left us to

deal with my mom while he was working extra, or having an affair, or playing

golf, or watching football. Left us to deal with her mental illness. :P

> > It's one of those things they call complicated grief.... Hard to work

through to forgiveness, love and letting go; especially since my sister died 18

months later.

> > **sigh**

> > thanks for your thoughts, Ashana,

> > ~patricia

> > ps...this whole thing made me rethink my whole estate/will thing.

> > Re: life being fair

> >

> >

> > ,

> >

> > What was your relationship with your father like? I mean, did he

periodically do hurtful and thoughtless things? Is this one in a series of

thoughtless acts, or is it an aberration?

> >

> > It could just be he got tired and sick and when we are very sick and very

tired we stop thinking about certain, practical things like writing wills so

that the kids will get something. We start to hope that either the problem will

go away or that the problem will solve itself. I have trouble with fatigue, and

when I am very fatigued I don't care if the bills are paid, if I starve, if my

students all fail, or much of anything else that is actually very important to

me. If he did not get around to writing a will when he was well, he may have

just not have had the energy deal with it when he was sick.

> >

> > Also, his first wife had a pd. Could be his second wife is also of

questionable mental health--you never know. There is often at least some pattern

in who we choose.

> >

> > Take care,

> > Ashana

> >

> >

> > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage.

http://in.yahoo.com/

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Deanna,

Thanks for sharing this with me. Perhaps this is what is going on.

It is a good possibility, and it is nothing personal, after all. Still sad,

though.

-Joy

> > >

> > > Hi Ashana,

> > > Well it's a weird thing with my dad...when he first split with my mom, he

used to go visit my sister a lot because she lived somewhat near him and he'd go

on long bike rides. His wife-to-be was still married and would not divorce her

husband, so I think my dad got depressed. But then her husband died

(conveniently) and they started to be together outwardly. He slowly quit going

to see my sister (he had taken us to Washington DC when I was pregnant with my

son, that was 16 years ago). I had contact with my dad, saw him when I went to

visit, phone calls, etc. But he just settled more into his life with Sharon

(his wife). And it pretty much excluded us. I determined that if I was going

to have more of a relationship with him, that I would have to put forth the

effort, so I called more, emailed, and asked him if my son and I could go stay

with them at their summer house (she owned a house at the Jersey shore). He

would check if it was available..but it never was. I wanted to spend time with

him and have him get to know my son more.

> > >

> > > I think what happened is that he got the diagnosis. And before he went in

for surgery he made up a will, quickly. Maybe he thought he'd change it later?

I don't know. But I think he was in denial too about when he was dying. So I

sort of get what might have happened. But god, how could he? He was a lawyer!

I understand the possibility but it hurt us so bad. Especially because his wife

won't give us anything. My dad liked to read; I would buy him books for gifts

and he had a collection from my grandfather of limited editions that I would

like. She doesn't read at all. He was writing a book on the civil war...and I

wanted his notes. I just don't understand it; after all, her daughters lost

their father.

> > >

> > > She seems 'normal' I even like her. Her daughters are spoiled seeming,

esp. the youngest and she is the one who I wonder if is actually my father's

daughter (when he was dying and she was in the room I noticed that they had a

similar nose). But we were totally left out...at the catholic church service,

we were in the second row; the receiving line got weird and we were around the

corner of chairs, the service was lame as hell I thought. She spent 20,000

dollars on all of that plus a catered party after. Meanwhile my sister was in

very poor health with two girls, no car, abandoned by her husband, and her

daughter had to drop out of college because she couldn't foresee being able to

pay back huge loans.

> > >

> > > So intellectually, I sort of get it. But emotionally it is like the

abandonment I always felt from him. He loved me, I know. But he let us go in

his later years. And you know what else....when we were young, he left us to

deal with my mom while he was working extra, or having an affair, or playing

golf, or watching football. Left us to deal with her mental illness. :P

> > > It's one of those things they call complicated grief.... Hard to work

through to forgiveness, love and letting go; especially since my sister died 18

months later.

> > > **sigh**

> > > thanks for your thoughts, Ashana,

> > > ~patricia

> > > ps...this whole thing made me rethink my whole estate/will thing.

> > > Re: life being fair

> > >

> > >

> > > ,

> > >

> > > What was your relationship with your father like? I mean, did he

periodically do hurtful and thoughtless things? Is this one in a series of

thoughtless acts, or is it an aberration?

> > >

> > > It could just be he got tired and sick and when we are very sick and

very tired we stop thinking about certain, practical things like writing wills

so that the kids will get something. We start to hope that either the problem

will go away or that the problem will solve itself. I have trouble with fatigue,

and when I am very fatigued I don't care if the bills are paid, if I starve, if

my students all fail, or much of anything else that is actually very important

to me. If he did not get around to writing a will when he was well, he may have

just not have had the energy deal with it when he was sick.

> > >

> > > Also, his first wife had a pd. Could be his second wife is also of

questionable mental health--you never know. There is often at least some pattern

in who we choose.

> > >

> > > Take care,

> > > Ashana

> > >

> > >

> > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo!

Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/

> > >

> > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On second thought, I decided to keep my facebook closed off from my Uncle from

now on. It is too painful. He is still on my friends list, but I don't feel

right having all my personal information exposed all the time unless there is a

comfortable relationship going on. Now, his status is set to " professional " .

Since now I feel sad about the fact that he is of course protecting himself and

he doesn't want drama, I feel on a deep level that I deserve more than this.

More than he can give.

I wish I didn't have the expectations. My EFT practitioner said there is a way

to get rid of the expectations through prayer and meditation. I don't know where

they come from; but I know I deserve more from a relationship than what he has

to offer.

I am tempted to remove his profile completely as clean breaks seem best for me

and seem to allow grieving processes to form quicker.

-Joy

> > > >

> > > > Hi Ashana,

> > > > Well it's a weird thing with my dad...when he first split with my mom,

he used to go visit my sister a lot because she lived somewhat near him and he'd

go on long bike rides. His wife-to-be was still married and would not divorce

her husband, so I think my dad got depressed. But then her husband died

(conveniently) and they started to be together outwardly. He slowly quit going

to see my sister (he had taken us to Washington DC when I was pregnant with my

son, that was 16 years ago). I had contact with my dad, saw him when I went to

visit, phone calls, etc. But he just settled more into his life with Sharon

(his wife). And it pretty much excluded us. I determined that if I was going

to have more of a relationship with him, that I would have to put forth the

effort, so I called more, emailed, and asked him if my son and I could go stay

with them at their summer house (she owned a house at the Jersey shore). He

would check if it was available..but it never was. I wanted to spend time with

him and have him get to know my son more.

> > > >

> > > > I think what happened is that he got the diagnosis. And before he went

in for surgery he made up a will, quickly. Maybe he thought he'd change it

later? I don't know. But I think he was in denial too about when he was dying.

So I sort of get what might have happened. But god, how could he? He was a

lawyer! I understand the possibility but it hurt us so bad. Especially because

his wife won't give us anything. My dad liked to read; I would buy him books

for gifts and he had a collection from my grandfather of limited editions that I

would like. She doesn't read at all. He was writing a book on the civil

war...and I wanted his notes. I just don't understand it; after all, her

daughters lost their father.

> > > >

> > > > She seems 'normal' I even like her. Her daughters are spoiled seeming,

esp. the youngest and she is the one who I wonder if is actually my father's

daughter (when he was dying and she was in the room I noticed that they had a

similar nose). But we were totally left out...at the catholic church service,

we were in the second row; the receiving line got weird and we were around the

corner of chairs, the service was lame as hell I thought. She spent 20,000

dollars on all of that plus a catered party after. Meanwhile my sister was in

very poor health with two girls, no car, abandoned by her husband, and her

daughter had to drop out of college because she couldn't foresee being able to

pay back huge loans.

> > > >

> > > > So intellectually, I sort of get it. But emotionally it is like the

abandonment I always felt from him. He loved me, I know. But he let us go in

his later years. And you know what else....when we were young, he left us to

deal with my mom while he was working extra, or having an affair, or playing

golf, or watching football. Left us to deal with her mental illness. :P

> > > > It's one of those things they call complicated grief.... Hard to work

through to forgiveness, love and letting go; especially since my sister died 18

months later.

> > > > **sigh**

> > > > thanks for your thoughts, Ashana,

> > > > ~patricia

> > > > ps...this whole thing made me rethink my whole estate/will thing.

> > > > Re: life being fair

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > >

> > > > What was your relationship with your father like? I mean, did he

periodically do hurtful and thoughtless things? Is this one in a series of

thoughtless acts, or is it an aberration?

> > > >

> > > > It could just be he got tired and sick and when we are very sick and

very tired we stop thinking about certain, practical things like writing wills

so that the kids will get something. We start to hope that either the problem

will go away or that the problem will solve itself. I have trouble with fatigue,

and when I am very fatigued I don't care if the bills are paid, if I starve, if

my students all fail, or much of anything else that is actually very important

to me. If he did not get around to writing a will when he was well, he may have

just not have had the energy deal with it when he was sick.

> > > >

> > > > Also, his first wife had a pd. Could be his second wife is also of

questionable mental health--you never know. There is often at least some pattern

in who we choose.

> > > >

> > > > Take care,

> > > > Ashana

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo!

Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/

> > > >

> > > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi ,

I'm getting a collie pup :-) I just hope I'm up for all the grooming LOL.

I plan on hitting the obednience, rally and agility rings, and hope to try

hearding with her.

that is very TACKY that your dads wife didn't even respond to you, how

childish or her. I know it doesn't help to know ( since you already know

this) her behavior is uncalled for and childish, I just cant understand

anyone being that tacky !! Can you challenge the will ?? I'm not sure what

that entails, but I have heard of it done...

it's not right she not sharing your own fathers things...

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

What kind of puppy are you getting? That is pretty exciting, I love

puppies.

The thing with my dad; he left everything to his wife (including a family

business share

and all his possessions, some of which us kids wanted, which my sister never

got). In

a marriage where there is no divorce, usually it goes to the spouse and then

to the kids. But

this was a situation where my parents were divorced, so all my father's

assets will eventually

go to his wife's children (none of whom need anything financially or care

about my dad's book

collection or civil war papers that he was writing on). Previously (before

they were married) he

sent me a detailed will naming us three kids as the beneficiaries and myself

as the executor.

I understood things would change when he got married, but I still thought he

would leave us

something, since he knew we were all struggling financially (at the very

least) and he has

grandchildren, my sister has four and myself one. One of my sister's kids

had to drop out of college.

It really hurt us all. And it's really hard to understand. I wrote my

dad's wife a nice letter asking

her to help me understand and I asked her if we could have certain things of

my dad's. Sort of

humiliating; especially because she did not write me back. And I sat with

her for hours and hours

in the hospital while my dad was dying.

:P

~patricia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm guessing that your expectations are coming from craving to have him as a

substitute father figure. That need is hard to get past. I had that same thing

happen to me with a boss I once had; his kindness and physical appearance

triggered my subconscious (apparently, in retrospect)and I felt very attached to

him. My feelings of trust and attachment were misplaced, so I was in effect

betrayed by my own subconscious needs. It was only much later that I figured

all that out.

I hope you get past your pain with this and to a more peaceful place; none of us

need more pain in our lives.

-Annie

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Ashana,

> > > > > Well it's a weird thing with my dad...when he first split with my mom,

he used to go visit my sister a lot because she lived somewhat near him and he'd

go on long bike rides. His wife-to-be was still married and would not divorce

her husband, so I think my dad got depressed. But then her husband died

(conveniently) and they started to be together outwardly. He slowly quit going

to see my sister (he had taken us to Washington DC when I was pregnant with my

son, that was 16 years ago). I had contact with my dad, saw him when I went to

visit, phone calls, etc. But he just settled more into his life with Sharon

(his wife). And it pretty much excluded us. I determined that if I was going

to have more of a relationship with him, that I would have to put forth the

effort, so I called more, emailed, and asked him if my son and I could go stay

with them at their summer house (she owned a house at the Jersey shore). He

would check if it was available..but it never was. I wanted to spend time with

him and have him get to know my son more.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think what happened is that he got the diagnosis. And before he

went in for surgery he made up a will, quickly. Maybe he thought he'd change it

later? I don't know. But I think he was in denial too about when he was dying.

So I sort of get what might have happened. But god, how could he? He was a

lawyer! I understand the possibility but it hurt us so bad. Especially because

his wife won't give us anything. My dad liked to read; I would buy him books

for gifts and he had a collection from my grandfather of limited editions that I

would like. She doesn't read at all. He was writing a book on the civil

war...and I wanted his notes. I just don't understand it; after all, her

daughters lost their father.

> > > > >

> > > > > She seems 'normal' I even like her. Her daughters are spoiled

seeming, esp. the youngest and she is the one who I wonder if is actually my

father's daughter (when he was dying and she was in the room I noticed that they

had a similar nose). But we were totally left out...at the catholic church

service, we were in the second row; the receiving line got weird and we were

around the corner of chairs, the service was lame as hell I thought. She spent

20,000 dollars on all of that plus a catered party after. Meanwhile my sister

was in very poor health with two girls, no car, abandoned by her husband, and

her daughter had to drop out of college because she couldn't foresee being able

to pay back huge loans.

> > > > >

> > > > > So intellectually, I sort of get it. But emotionally it is like the

abandonment I always felt from him. He loved me, I know. But he let us go in

his later years. And you know what else....when we were young, he left us to

deal with my mom while he was working extra, or having an affair, or playing

golf, or watching football. Left us to deal with her mental illness. :P

> > > > > It's one of those things they call complicated grief.... Hard to work

through to forgiveness, love and letting go; especially since my sister died 18

months later.

> > > > > **sigh**

> > > > > thanks for your thoughts, Ashana,

> > > > > ~patricia

> > > > > ps...this whole thing made me rethink my whole estate/will thing.

> > > > > Re: life being fair

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ,

> > > > >

> > > > > What was your relationship with your father like? I mean, did he

periodically do hurtful and thoughtless things? Is this one in a series of

thoughtless acts, or is it an aberration?

> > > > >

> > > > > It could just be he got tired and sick and when we are very sick and

very tired we stop thinking about certain, practical things like writing wills

so that the kids will get something. We start to hope that either the problem

will go away or that the problem will solve itself. I have trouble with fatigue,

and when I am very fatigued I don't care if the bills are paid, if I starve, if

my students all fail, or much of anything else that is actually very important

to me. If he did not get around to writing a will when he was well, he may have

just not have had the energy deal with it when he was sick.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, his first wife had a pd. Could be his second wife is also of

questionable mental health--you never know. There is often at least some pattern

in who we choose.

> > > > >

> > > > > Take care,

> > > > > Ashana

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo!

Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/

> > > > >

> > > > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jackie,

That's so funny; i just sent my boyfriend a picture of myself when i was 15 or

16

with my collie...she was the best dog and my best friend. You will have so much

fun!

Yes...it is strange my dad's wife did not respond. I don't think i can

challenge the

will; he signed it with two witnesses. I have this weird feeling that she wants

to keep

the families separate because they were having an affair and she is very

catholic

(her brother was a monseignor) and then I have that curiosity if her youngest

daughter

is actually my dad's daughter. The phrase that came to me was: the secrets

*nice* people

keep.

Thanks for your words..have fun with your puppy!

~patricia

Re: life being fair

Hi ,

I'm getting a collie pup :-) I just hope I'm up for all the grooming LOL.

I plan on hitting the obednience, rally and agility rings, and hope to try

hearding with her.

that is very TACKY that your dads wife didn't even respond to you, how

childish or her. I know it doesn't help to know ( since you already know

this) her behavior is uncalled for and childish, I just cant understand

anyone being that tacky !! Can you challenge the will ?? I'm not sure what

that entails, but I have heard of it done...

it's not right she not sharing your own fathers things...

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

What kind of puppy are you getting? That is pretty exciting, I love

puppies.

The thing with my dad; he left everything to his wife (including a family

business share

and all his possessions, some of which us kids wanted, which my sister never

got). In

a marriage where there is no divorce, usually it goes to the spouse and then

to the kids. But

this was a situation where my parents were divorced, so all my father's

assets will eventually

go to his wife's children (none of whom need anything financially or care

about my dad's book

collection or civil war papers that he was writing on). Previously (before

they were married) he

sent me a detailed will naming us three kids as the beneficiaries and myself

as the executor.

I understood things would change when he got married, but I still thought he

would leave us

something, since he knew we were all struggling financially (at the very

least) and he has

grandchildren, my sister has four and myself one. One of my sister's kids

had to drop out of college.

It really hurt us all. And it's really hard to understand. I wrote my

dad's wife a nice letter asking

her to help me understand and I asked her if we could have certain things of

my dad's. Sort of

humiliating; especially because she did not write me back. And I sat with

her for hours and hours

in the hospital while my dad was dying.

:P

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OMGoodness. My EFT practitioner said this outta no where when we were doing EFT.

I am not sure how she put two and two together, but I was telling her about some

experiences I've had where I was hurt.

She must have seen a trend.

I also noticed this morning and last night that I have these expectations of

people. I read online that unmet expectations set us up as a victim. In fact,

there is a phrase for it called " the first water " victim. It is also a little

stepping outside ourselves when all we can do is stay grounded in ourselves and

focused on US. I keep putting myself in these situations and i don't know why. I

am trying to stop.

-Joy

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hi Ashana,

> > > > > > Well it's a weird thing with my dad...when he first split with my

mom, he used to go visit my sister a lot because she lived somewhat near him and

he'd go on long bike rides. His wife-to-be was still married and would not

divorce her husband, so I think my dad got depressed. But then her husband died

(conveniently) and they started to be together outwardly. He slowly quit going

to see my sister (he had taken us to Washington DC when I was pregnant with my

son, that was 16 years ago). I had contact with my dad, saw him when I went to

visit, phone calls, etc. But he just settled more into his life with Sharon

(his wife). And it pretty much excluded us. I determined that if I was going

to have more of a relationship with him, that I would have to put forth the

effort, so I called more, emailed, and asked him if my son and I could go stay

with them at their summer house (she owned a house at the Jersey shore). He

would check if it was available..but it never was. I wanted to spend time with

him and have him get to know my son more.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think what happened is that he got the diagnosis. And before he

went in for surgery he made up a will, quickly. Maybe he thought he'd change it

later? I don't know. But I think he was in denial too about when he was dying.

So I sort of get what might have happened. But god, how could he? He was a

lawyer! I understand the possibility but it hurt us so bad. Especially because

his wife won't give us anything. My dad liked to read; I would buy him books

for gifts and he had a collection from my grandfather of limited editions that I

would like. She doesn't read at all. He was writing a book on the civil

war...and I wanted his notes. I just don't understand it; after all, her

daughters lost their father.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > She seems 'normal' I even like her. Her daughters are spoiled

seeming, esp. the youngest and she is the one who I wonder if is actually my

father's daughter (when he was dying and she was in the room I noticed that they

had a similar nose). But we were totally left out...at the catholic church

service, we were in the second row; the receiving line got weird and we were

around the corner of chairs, the service was lame as hell I thought. She spent

20,000 dollars on all of that plus a catered party after. Meanwhile my sister

was in very poor health with two girls, no car, abandoned by her husband, and

her daughter had to drop out of college because she couldn't foresee being able

to pay back huge loans.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So intellectually, I sort of get it. But emotionally it is like the

abandonment I always felt from him. He loved me, I know. But he let us go in

his later years. And you know what else....when we were young, he left us to

deal with my mom while he was working extra, or having an affair, or playing

golf, or watching football. Left us to deal with her mental illness. :P

> > > > > > It's one of those things they call complicated grief.... Hard to

work through to forgiveness, love and letting go; especially since my sister

died 18 months later.

> > > > > > **sigh**

> > > > > > thanks for your thoughts, Ashana,

> > > > > > ~patricia

> > > > > > ps...this whole thing made me rethink my whole estate/will thing.

> > > > > > Re: life being fair

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What was your relationship with your father like? I mean, did he

periodically do hurtful and thoughtless things? Is this one in a series of

thoughtless acts, or is it an aberration?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It could just be he got tired and sick and when we are very sick

and very tired we stop thinking about certain, practical things like writing

wills so that the kids will get something. We start to hope that either the

problem will go away or that the problem will solve itself. I have trouble with

fatigue, and when I am very fatigued I don't care if the bills are paid, if I

starve, if my students all fail, or much of anything else that is actually very

important to me. If he did not get around to writing a will when he was well, he

may have just not have had the energy deal with it when he was sick.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also, his first wife had a pd. Could be his second wife is also of

questionable mental health--you never know. There is often at least some pattern

in who we choose.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Take care,

> > > > > > Ashana

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo!

Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Joy,

That concept sounds plausible to me: that unmet expectations set us up to be

victimized. I will have to ponder this concept and see how it has possibly

affected me in other ways than I am already aware of.

I seem to be very good at hiding things from myself, so it helps to hear

thoughts of others on issues that I myself deal with. That's one of the things

I like very much about this Group. Thanks for sharing that information.

And I do hope you find peace and healing RE your expectations revolving around

your uncle.

-Annie

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hi Ashana,

> > > > > > > Well it's a weird thing with my dad...when he first split with my

mom, he used to go visit my sister a lot because she lived somewhat near him and

he'd go on long bike rides. His wife-to-be was still married and would not

divorce her husband, so I think my dad got depressed. But then her husband died

(conveniently) and they started to be together outwardly. He slowly quit going

to see my sister (he had taken us to Washington DC when I was pregnant with my

son, that was 16 years ago). I had contact with my dad, saw him when I went to

visit, phone calls, etc. But he just settled more into his life with Sharon

(his wife). And it pretty much excluded us. I determined that if I was going

to have more of a relationship with him, that I would have to put forth the

effort, so I called more, emailed, and asked him if my son and I could go stay

with them at their summer house (she owned a house at the Jersey shore). He

would check if it was available..but it never was. I wanted to spend time with

him and have him get to know my son more.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think what happened is that he got the diagnosis. And before he

went in for surgery he made up a will, quickly. Maybe he thought he'd change it

later? I don't know. But I think he was in denial too about when he was dying.

So I sort of get what might have happened. But god, how could he? He was a

lawyer! I understand the possibility but it hurt us so bad. Especially because

his wife won't give us anything. My dad liked to read; I would buy him books

for gifts and he had a collection from my grandfather of limited editions that I

would like. She doesn't read at all. He was writing a book on the civil

war...and I wanted his notes. I just don't understand it; after all, her

daughters lost their father.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > She seems 'normal' I even like her. Her daughters are spoiled

seeming, esp. the youngest and she is the one who I wonder if is actually my

father's daughter (when he was dying and she was in the room I noticed that they

had a similar nose). But we were totally left out...at the catholic church

service, we were in the second row; the receiving line got weird and we were

around the corner of chairs, the service was lame as hell I thought. She spent

20,000 dollars on all of that plus a catered party after. Meanwhile my sister

was in very poor health with two girls, no car, abandoned by her husband, and

her daughter had to drop out of college because she couldn't foresee being able

to pay back huge loans.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > So intellectually, I sort of get it. But emotionally it is like

the abandonment I always felt from him. He loved me, I know. But he let us go

in his later years. And you know what else....when we were young, he left us to

deal with my mom while he was working extra, or having an affair, or playing

golf, or watching football. Left us to deal with her mental illness. :P

> > > > > > > It's one of those things they call complicated grief.... Hard to

work through to forgiveness, love and letting go; especially since my sister

died 18 months later.

> > > > > > > **sigh**

> > > > > > > thanks for your thoughts, Ashana,

> > > > > > > ~patricia

> > > > > > > ps...this whole thing made me rethink my whole estate/will thing.

> > > > > > > Re: life being fair

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What was your relationship with your father like? I mean, did he

periodically do hurtful and thoughtless things? Is this one in a series of

thoughtless acts, or is it an aberration?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It could just be he got tired and sick and when we are very sick

and very tired we stop thinking about certain, practical things like writing

wills so that the kids will get something. We start to hope that either the

problem will go away or that the problem will solve itself. I have trouble with

fatigue, and when I am very fatigued I don't care if the bills are paid, if I

starve, if my students all fail, or much of anything else that is actually very

important to me. If he did not get around to writing a will when he was well, he

may have just not have had the energy deal with it when he was sick.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also, his first wife had a pd. Could be his second wife is also

of questionable mental health--you never know. There is often at least some

pattern in who we choose.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Take care,

> > > > > > > Ashana

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo!

Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, Annie.

And I am glad that this has helped you. Here is something else I'll share about

my day today that you might find interesting.

I noticed today that I felt a bit overwhelmed about all the things I had to get

done. I started to pick at a tiny scab. Usually, it is a small spot of acne (I

rarely get acne, but I pick the heck out of it whenever I happen to get it) out

of nervousness. It is kinda gross writing it out like this, but it is also kind

of sad because it's a dysfunctional form of self-soothing.

I recently read that this is another form of trying to soothe something but not

knowing what tools to use (ie: we never had positive or soothing comfort and

validation from a constant parent).

Basically, for the first time today, I thought: it's okay that you are

overwhelmed. It happens sometimes, just take it one step atta time. " I didn't

try to change my picking at myself yet because I honestly didn't know how even

though I read it was dysfunctional for obvious reasons. I suppose it's like

biting nails.

Anywho, the positive self-talk that I witnessed surprised me because I didn't

purposely do it or try to even do it. It just...came and I had no urges to do

anything else. Like, for the first time I instinctively knew how my feelings

should be treated. I think before there was a tiny critic in my head (aka

Nada--who invalidated feelings) which made it WORSE or there was just a void.

I think it's all the healing I've been doing through my 12-step, praying,

meditation, and active self-care. It's like a small sapling emerged from all the

watering I've been doing. :)

-Joy

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hi Ashana,

> > > > > > > > Well it's a weird thing with my dad...when he first split with

my mom, he used to go visit my sister a lot because she lived somewhat near him

and he'd go on long bike rides. His wife-to-be was still married and would not

divorce her husband, so I think my dad got depressed. But then her husband died

(conveniently) and they started to be together outwardly. He slowly quit going

to see my sister (he had taken us to Washington DC when I was pregnant with my

son, that was 16 years ago). I had contact with my dad, saw him when I went to

visit, phone calls, etc. But he just settled more into his life with Sharon

(his wife). And it pretty much excluded us. I determined that if I was going

to have more of a relationship with him, that I would have to put forth the

effort, so I called more, emailed, and asked him if my son and I could go stay

with them at their summer house (she owned a house at the Jersey shore). He

would check if it was available..but it never was. I wanted to spend time with

him and have him get to know my son more.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I think what happened is that he got the diagnosis. And before

he went in for surgery he made up a will, quickly. Maybe he thought he'd change

it later? I don't know. But I think he was in denial too about when he was

dying. So I sort of get what might have happened. But god, how could he? He

was a lawyer! I understand the possibility but it hurt us so bad. Especially

because his wife won't give us anything. My dad liked to read; I would buy him

books for gifts and he had a collection from my grandfather of limited editions

that I would like. She doesn't read at all. He was writing a book on the civil

war...and I wanted his notes. I just don't understand it; after all, her

daughters lost their father.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > She seems 'normal' I even like her. Her daughters are spoiled

seeming, esp. the youngest and she is the one who I wonder if is actually my

father's daughter (when he was dying and she was in the room I noticed that they

had a similar nose). But we were totally left out...at the catholic church

service, we were in the second row; the receiving line got weird and we were

around the corner of chairs, the service was lame as hell I thought. She spent

20,000 dollars on all of that plus a catered party after. Meanwhile my sister

was in very poor health with two girls, no car, abandoned by her husband, and

her daughter had to drop out of college because she couldn't foresee being able

to pay back huge loans.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > So intellectually, I sort of get it. But emotionally it is like

the abandonment I always felt from him. He loved me, I know. But he let us go

in his later years. And you know what else....when we were young, he left us to

deal with my mom while he was working extra, or having an affair, or playing

golf, or watching football. Left us to deal with her mental illness. :P

> > > > > > > > It's one of those things they call complicated grief.... Hard to

work through to forgiveness, love and letting go; especially since my sister

died 18 months later.

> > > > > > > > **sigh**

> > > > > > > > thanks for your thoughts, Ashana,

> > > > > > > > ~patricia

> > > > > > > > ps...this whole thing made me rethink my whole estate/will

thing.

> > > > > > > > Re: life being fair

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What was your relationship with your father like? I mean, did

he periodically do hurtful and thoughtless things? Is this one in a series of

thoughtless acts, or is it an aberration?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It could just be he got tired and sick and when we are very

sick and very tired we stop thinking about certain, practical things like

writing wills so that the kids will get something. We start to hope that either

the problem will go away or that the problem will solve itself. I have trouble

with fatigue, and when I am very fatigued I don't care if the bills are paid, if

I starve, if my students all fail, or much of anything else that is actually

very important to me. If he did not get around to writing a will when he was

well, he may have just not have had the energy deal with it when he was sick.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also, his first wife had a pd. Could be his second wife is

also of questionable mental health--you never know. There is often at least some

pattern in who we choose.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Take care,

> > > > > > > > Ashana

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your

Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

thanks ,

after having siberians and malamutes since 1978, I got tired of their so

independent nature and decided I wanted a dog who wanted me around more than

just for opening the back door to let them in or out LOL

I dont have any pictures of myself when I was ...well...any age...nada threw

them all away...

so you think Sharon feels guilty about their marriage ? That still is no

reason to punish you and your siblings for what she and your father did....

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

That's so funny; i just sent my boyfriend a picture of myself when i was 15

or 16

with my collie...she was the best dog and my best friend. You will have so

much fun!

Yes...it is strange my dad's wife did not respond. I don't think i can

challenge the

will; he signed it with two witnesses. I have this weird feeling that she

wants to keep

the families separate because they were having an affair and she is very

catholic

(her brother was a monseignor) and then I have that curiosity if her

youngest daughter

is actually my dad's daughter. The phrase that came to me was: the secrets

*nice* people

keep.

Thanks for your words..have fun with your puppy!

~patricia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like what you said here,: " I am hoping that understanding Life Is Not

Fair really does set me free.I hope that losing my expectations and

idealizations will help me to be free.And that I can live my life better with

heart break and not let it pull me under " ...

I'm pretty much in the same place right now.Expectation and idealization

can make for a hopefulness that turns out to seem more like a cruel joke on us

than the sustaining support we thought it would be.I've been taking more comfort

lately in the fact of life not being fair--not in a nihilistic sense but in the

sense of laying down the burden of my own illusions--passing into the acceptance

phase of grief I guess.It feels liberating to me to let the world be as it

is,not as a cynic but as an idealist at heart who is now choosing to give

realism a chance so that it works in tandem with my idealism.

I feel dismayed,for example,by the hierarchies I see forming at work,all

this (to me) needless power posturing that reminds me of chimps to be honest...I

can't change it; I can't really lead by example,it's bigger than me...other

peoples' unconscious motivations...I had to attend an HR training seminar last

week so I can sit in soon on interviewing panels at work.The kinds of questions

to ask,how to evaluate responses...basically,it seemed to me,various tricks to

use on interviewees if you don't have good intuition....and as far as I could

see,the kinds of people who could ace these kinds of throwing questions at you

interviews are the ones most practiced at bullshitting,like we're supposed to be

screening out the ones who wouldn't be " loyal " to the corporation;the ones who

can't hold their own under pressure blah blah blah when what we're actually

doing (I thought) if we interview like this is to narrow the selections down to

the corporate sociopaths...I felt so dismayed and disgusted afterward that I got

a bad cold...and oh,the woman who was conducting the seminar seemed to think she

was really clever and she was this swaggering " alpha " type...like a narcissist

teaching us how to screen in sociopaths,too much...it's no wonder corporate

greed has reached epic proportions these days,if this is how we hire: to give

precedence to the most glib bullshitters...

But while I nursed my cold I thought of how this is just the way that it

is...stupid,yes...unfair,yes...mediocrity rules in so many ways...but I can

either rail against it which would be futile or choose to remove myself from

it...there are people out there who have also been injured by the unfairness of

life--not the ones doing the steamrolling for their own selfish advantage--and I

could work with them instead,to be a healer as much as possible--to deal with

life not being fair in a positive way...

It sounds like we're in the same boat on a symbolic level: we both need

to attend to that vital spark that remains,to find a new place in the sun.

And I think that we can.Reality can be a downer but it can also reveal

our own power to face the world on our own terms,with integrity--our own

integrity.

>

> Good morning all~

>

> Reading the different emails this morning brought to my mind a few things.

The one about childhood trauma being under recognized in the medical field.

This seems counter-intuitive to me, but then again sometimes scientists can be

so ignorant about things beyond their range of study. Thank goodness for those

who pioneered the work in studying childhood trauma. But it made me think about

my own self; it has been hard for me to connect with the damage that was done to

me from various sources. I have tried in therapy, but curiously no therapist

would really 'go there' with me, because of course I was resistant, the shame

being the hardest thing to overcome.

>

> And now when I think of those things, I just don't feel like I want to get

wrapped up in the sadness and helplessness I felt; the vulnerability. And that

is because my current life situation is just too hard, too close to the 'going

down the tubes' feeling. So I struggle to move forward and can't afford to feel

anything but what is going on now. That being said, I have tried to find a

therapist but under my insurance, they are either a distance away or not taking

new clients. One was a psy d (which I wanted this time around) and she had a

social worker call me back. I felt put off and did not want to see a social

worker (no offense to them; but I sort of wanted to try a new approach:

analysis, strengths and weaknesses, tools to overcome resistance; rather than:

oh, that sounds terrible, me: cry cry, feel ashamed. They did what? and:

here's your homework, and so on).

>

> So this is where the comment: Life is not fair comes in. I have been really

tortured the past couple years about how this world is. Not for me, but for all

the destitute and victimized. It makes it hard for me to really feel that my

troubles matter, but it also makes me feel hopeless. My: life is not fair

realization has made me feel a bit despairing. But bits of freedom are starting

to peek in. Because I feel that if life is not fair, then if I have the power

in myself to do better for myself, it is up to me to get somewhere. I don't

have to life poorly because of the despair in the world.

>

> The part about Nada's treating children differently...Well I have always seen

this in my family. And what I can see now (especially with my sister gone) how

this set us up for rivalries and disconnectedness. While my mother always

lamented: why can't you all love each other? When she was the one who set us

apart from each other. She was the one who would let my brother bully me

because she did not want to intervene (don't fight...I can't take it...I am a

mental cripple).

> I realize how this set us up (at least I know my sister and I had this issue)

against the issue of " fairness " . Not just between us, but with the world! My

sister really struggled with this. Whereas I felt as I got older it was

immature to think that way, inside, I still sure did. My mother acts the 'waif'

but I noticed long ago what power she wielded with that behavior.

> In her 'weak' acting, she got all of us attached to her in various ways. My

brother is so sucked in he gets outraged at anyone who causes her discomfort or

trouble. Her perceptions.

>

> I was raised in what you might call a semi upper middle class white family in

America. My dad was a lawyer, my mom was a stay at home mom. She did not

really take care of us past the age of 12 ( she made dinners), and emotionally

neither ever took care of us. We had a decent lifestyle. So who can complain,

right? People don't see behind the facade. People don't see the learned

helplessness, the struggle to overcome tremendous shame, the deep deep scars and

open wounds from multiple suicide attempts and father's emotional detachment.

We seem like a normal family on the outside. But..... as time went on, people

could see the bad things. Only I think they don't get where it came from.

>

> I am hoping that understanding Life Is Not Fair really does set me free. I

hope that losing my expectations and idealizations will help me to be free. And

that I can live my life better with heart break and not let it pull me under.

> ~patricia

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jackie

We had a husky at one time but we couldn't train her and she would go after

our neighbor's chickens. So we ended up giving her to someone who could deal

with that breed. They are beautiful. Collies are so wonderful and definitely a

companion type dog. Plus they like to do things and are easy to train.

Sharon...I think she feels guilty about the affair because of her being

catholic.

And if her one daughter is my dad's too...then that would be a whole other can

o' worms (that is just speculation on my part; I have no evidence except

wondering

if there was a resemblence). I have no idea why she is acting the way she

is...I feel

it is really a terrible thing; especially if she loved my dad.

But people act in bad ways...It teaches me not to act badly...

~patricia

Re: life being fair

thanks ,

after having siberians and malamutes since 1978, I got tired of their so

independent nature and decided I wanted a dog who wanted me around more than

just for opening the back door to let them in or out LOL

I dont have any pictures of myself when I was ...well...any age...nada threw

them all away...

so you think Sharon feels guilty about their marriage ? That still is no

reason to punish you and your siblings for what she and your father did....

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

That's so funny; i just sent my boyfriend a picture of myself when i was 15

or 16

with my collie...she was the best dog and my best friend. You will have so

much fun!

Yes...it is strange my dad's wife did not respond. I don't think i can

challenge the

will; he signed it with two witnesses. I have this weird feeling that she

wants to keep

the families separate because they were having an affair and she is very

catholic

(her brother was a monseignor) and then I have that curiosity if her

youngest daughter

is actually my dad's daughter. The phrase that came to me was: the secrets

*nice* people

keep.

Thanks for your words..have fun with your puppy!

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi ~

I think you are right...it is the acceptance phase of grief that I am talking

about. Your statement about idealism in tandem with realism is eloquent. I

will have to remember that because I am hoping to get back to that place. I

just *might* be out of the super negative cynical phase I was in, but I'm not

saying so for sure just yet. Sometimes I will be in a good upbeat mood early in

the day and then by the end of the day I am in tears. I go back and forth with

it all (and I know it is part of my grief over my sister, plus my man moving so

far away).

What you describe at work is dismaying; it's too bad you have to take part in

such phony-ness. I mean, why does this world have to be so stupid that way?

Everything is a strategy to *win* and disregard the simple human-ness of us all.

And this is the part of me that gets cynical. I'm not sure how to change it; I

hate not being fulfilled with being the speck I am in my goodwill. That could

change in time. (I am thinking of getting a masters in public health..but not

sure what kinds of jobs that could get me).

You are right....focusing on that vital spark...finding a new place in the sun;

I like that idea. And I like the idea of focusing on my own integrity; my own

character.

I am hoping that in this next year I can find a new direction in my life and a

new power within myself to really sustain myself, support myself financially,

and get rid of stress (or get rid of so much unnecessary stress!)

Thanks for your insights.... ;)

~patricia

Re: life being fair

I like what you said here,: " I am hoping that understanding Life Is

Not Fair really does set me free.I hope that losing my expectations and

idealizations will help me to be free.And that I can live my life better with

heart break and not let it pull me under " ...

I'm pretty much in the same place right now.Expectation and idealization

can make for a hopefulness that turns out to seem more like a cruel joke on us

than the sustaining support we thought it would be.I've been taking more comfort

lately in the fact of life not being fair--not in a nihilistic sense but in the

sense of laying down the burden of my own illusions--passing into the acceptance

phase of grief I guess.It feels liberating to me to let the world be as it

is,not as a cynic but as an idealist at heart who is now choosing to give

realism a chance so that it works in tandem with my idealism.

I feel dismayed,for example,by the hierarchies I see forming at

work,all this (to me) needless power posturing that reminds me of chimps to be

honest...I can't change it; I can't really lead by example,it's bigger than

me...other peoples' unconscious motivations...I had to attend an HR training

seminar last week so I can sit in soon on interviewing panels at work.The kinds

of questions to ask,how to evaluate responses...basically,it seemed to

me,various tricks to use on interviewees if you don't have good intuition....and

as far as I could see,the kinds of people who could ace these kinds of throwing

questions at you interviews are the ones most practiced at bullshitting,like

we're supposed to be screening out the ones who wouldn't be " loyal " to the

corporation;the ones who can't hold their own under pressure blah blah blah when

what we're actually doing (I thought) if we interview like this is to narrow the

selections down to the corporate sociopaths...I felt so dismayed and disgusted

afterward that I got a bad cold...and oh,the woman who was conducting the

seminar seemed to think she was really clever and she was this swaggering

" alpha " type...like a narcissist teaching us how to screen in sociopaths,too

much...it's no wonder corporate greed has reached epic proportions these days,if

this is how we hire: to give precedence to the most glib bullshitters...

But while I nursed my cold I thought of how this is just the way that

it is...stupid,yes...unfair,yes...mediocrity rules in so many ways...but I can

either rail against it which would be futile or choose to remove myself from

it...there are people out there who have also been injured by the unfairness of

life--not the ones doing the steamrolling for their own selfish advantage--and I

could work with them instead,to be a healer as much as possible--to deal with

life not being fair in a positive way...

It sounds like we're in the same boat on a symbolic level: we both

need to attend to that vital spark that remains,to find a new place in the sun.

And I think that we can.Reality can be a downer but it can also

reveal our own power to face the world on our own terms,with integrity--our own

integrity.

>

> Good morning all~

>

> Reading the different emails this morning brought to my mind a few things.

The one about childhood trauma being under recognized in the medical field.

This seems counter-intuitive to me, but then again sometimes scientists can be

so ignorant about things beyond their range of study. Thank goodness for those

who pioneered the work in studying childhood trauma. But it made me think about

my own self; it has been hard for me to connect with the damage that was done to

me from various sources. I have tried in therapy, but curiously no therapist

would really 'go there' with me, because of course I was resistant, the shame

being the hardest thing to overcome.

>

> And now when I think of those things, I just don't feel like I want to get

wrapped up in the sadness and helplessness I felt; the vulnerability. And that

is because my current life situation is just too hard, too close to the 'going

down the tubes' feeling. So I struggle to move forward and can't afford to feel

anything but what is going on now. That being said, I have tried to find a

therapist but under my insurance, they are either a distance away or not taking

new clients. One was a psy d (which I wanted this time around) and she had a

social worker call me back. I felt put off and did not want to see a social

worker (no offense to them; but I sort of wanted to try a new approach:

analysis, strengths and weaknesses, tools to overcome resistance; rather than:

oh, that sounds terrible, me: cry cry, feel ashamed. They did what? and:

here's your homework, and so on).

>

> So this is where the comment: Life is not fair comes in. I have been really

tortured the past couple years about how this world is. Not for me, but for all

the destitute and victimized. It makes it hard for me to really feel that my

troubles matter, but it also makes me feel hopeless. My: life is not fair

realization has made me feel a bit despairing. But bits of freedom are starting

to peek in. Because I feel that if life is not fair, then if I have the power

in myself to do better for myself, it is up to me to get somewhere. I don't

have to life poorly because of the despair in the world.

>

> The part about Nada's treating children differently...Well I have always

seen this in my family. And what I can see now (especially with my sister gone)

how this set us up for rivalries and disconnectedness. While my mother always

lamented: why can't you all love each other? When she was the one who set us

apart from each other. She was the one who would let my brother bully me

because she did not want to intervene (don't fight...I can't take it...I am a

mental cripple).

> I realize how this set us up (at least I know my sister and I had this

issue) against the issue of " fairness " . Not just between us, but with the

world! My sister really struggled with this. Whereas I felt as I got older it

was immature to think that way, inside, I still sure did. My mother acts the

'waif' but I noticed long ago what power she wielded with that behavior.

> In her 'weak' acting, she got all of us attached to her in various ways. My

brother is so sucked in he gets outraged at anyone who causes her discomfort or

trouble. Her perceptions.

>

> I was raised in what you might call a semi upper middle class white family

in America. My dad was a lawyer, my mom was a stay at home mom. She did not

really take care of us past the age of 12 ( she made dinners), and emotionally

neither ever took care of us. We had a decent lifestyle. So who can complain,

right? People don't see behind the facade. People don't see the learned

helplessness, the struggle to overcome tremendous shame, the deep deep scars and

open wounds from multiple suicide attempts and father's emotional detachment.

We seem like a normal family on the outside. But..... as time went on, people

could see the bad things. Only I think they don't get where it came from.

>

> I am hoping that understanding Life Is Not Fair really does set me free. I

hope that losing my expectations and idealizations will help me to be free. And

that I can live my life better with heart break and not let it pull me under.

> ~patricia

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand what you mean about being dismayed by the infighting, cliques,

power struggles and bulls**t that go on inside just about any good-sized

corporation. Yes, the unfairness is depressing.

In retrospect, the large multi-national corporation I used to work for was so

dysfunctional organizationally, no wonder I felt at home there. The company

even encouraged us employees to think of the company as our " family. "

So yes, that " family " included a cult-like division head (Nada!) who was

difficult if not impossible to please, kept us walking on eggshells, was fond of

frequent, massive re-re-re-organizational changes and was worshiped by her cadre

of flying monkeys. Us middle-management types had to live with responsibility

without any decision-making power, constant pressure to meet unrealistic goals,

and frequent threats of downsizing by eliminating those who were not " good team

players " . The definition of " good team player " was someone willing to work into

the night and on weekends for no pay.

I'm glad I " divorced " that company. Who needs another toxic foo?

-Annie

>

> I like what you said here,: " I am hoping that understanding Life Is

Not Fair really does set me free.I hope that losing my expectations and

idealizations will help me to be free.And that I can live my life better with

heart break and not let it pull me under " ...

>

> I'm pretty much in the same place right now.Expectation and idealization

can make for a hopefulness that turns out to seem more like a cruel joke on us

than the sustaining support we thought it would be.I've been taking more comfort

lately in the fact of life not being fair--not in a nihilistic sense but in the

sense of laying down the burden of my own illusions--passing into the acceptance

phase of grief I guess.It feels liberating to me to let the world be as it

is,not as a cynic but as an idealist at heart who is now choosing to give

realism a chance so that it works in tandem with my idealism.

>

> I feel dismayed,for example,by the hierarchies I see forming at

work,all this (to me) needless power posturing that reminds me of chimps to be

honest...I can't change it; I can't really lead by example,it's bigger than

me...other peoples' unconscious motivations...I had to attend an HR training

seminar last week so I can sit in soon on interviewing panels at work.The kinds

of questions to ask,how to evaluate responses...basically,it seemed to

me,various tricks to use on interviewees if you don't have good intuition....and

as far as I could see,the kinds of people who could ace these kinds of throwing

questions at you interviews are the ones most practiced at bullshitting,like

we're supposed to be screening out the ones who wouldn't be " loyal " to the

corporation;the ones who can't hold their own under pressure blah blah blah when

what we're actually doing (I thought) if we interview like this is to narrow the

selections down to the corporate sociopaths...I felt so dismayed and disgusted

afterward that I got a bad cold...and oh,the woman who was conducting the

seminar seemed to think she was really clever and she was this swaggering

" alpha " type...like a narcissist teaching us how to screen in sociopaths,too

much...it's no wonder corporate greed has reached epic proportions these days,if

this is how we hire: to give precedence to the most glib bullshitters...

>

> But while I nursed my cold I thought of how this is just the way that

it is...stupid,yes...unfair,yes...mediocrity rules in so many ways...but I can

either rail against it which would be futile or choose to remove myself from

it...there are people out there who have also been injured by the unfairness of

life--not the ones doing the steamrolling for their own selfish advantage--and I

could work with them instead,to be a healer as much as possible--to deal with

life not being fair in a positive way...

>

> It sounds like we're in the same boat on a symbolic level: we both

need to attend to that vital spark that remains,to find a new place in the sun.

>

> And I think that we can.Reality can be a downer but it can also

reveal our own power to face the world on our own terms,with integrity--our own

integrity.

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi ,

I loved reading your post--thanks for writing it. I was listening to a Cd on

codependency, and the author was talking about teaching everything and everybody

(including hurtful situations/people and even abuse) as a teacher. If we live

moment to moment (and then she did a school ring tone as an effect), and said

" wow, what is it that we are about to learn next, in this moment in this hour? "

She was inspired to speak about this piece and about elevating ourselves above a

victim stance. I think this helps me.

In reality, we are victims of victims of victims.

I'm not saying that anyone should feel ashamed of grieving or talking about

their past or anything like that or having strong emotions because of

circumstances. I think it is just a different way of looking at things and it

helps me not to want to " control " and worry about everything in my life at

present. It also helps me connect with people more.

-Joy

> >

> > Good morning all~

> >

> > Reading the different emails this morning brought to my mind a few things.

The one about childhood trauma being under recognized in the medical field.

This seems counter-intuitive to me, but then again sometimes scientists can be

so ignorant about things beyond their range of study. Thank goodness for those

who pioneered the work in studying childhood trauma. But it made me think about

my own self; it has been hard for me to connect with the damage that was done to

me from various sources. I have tried in therapy, but curiously no therapist

would really 'go there' with me, because of course I was resistant, the shame

being the hardest thing to overcome.

> >

> > And now when I think of those things, I just don't feel like I want to get

wrapped up in the sadness and helplessness I felt; the vulnerability. And that

is because my current life situation is just too hard, too close to the 'going

down the tubes' feeling. So I struggle to move forward and can't afford to feel

anything but what is going on now. That being said, I have tried to find a

therapist but under my insurance, they are either a distance away or not taking

new clients. One was a psy d (which I wanted this time around) and she had a

social worker call me back. I felt put off and did not want to see a social

worker (no offense to them; but I sort of wanted to try a new approach:

analysis, strengths and weaknesses, tools to overcome resistance; rather than:

oh, that sounds terrible, me: cry cry, feel ashamed. They did what? and:

here's your homework, and so on).

> >

> > So this is where the comment: Life is not fair comes in. I have been really

tortured the past couple years about how this world is. Not for me, but for all

the destitute and victimized. It makes it hard for me to really feel that my

troubles matter, but it also makes me feel hopeless. My: life is not fair

realization has made me feel a bit despairing. But bits of freedom are starting

to peek in. Because I feel that if life is not fair, then if I have the power

in myself to do better for myself, it is up to me to get somewhere. I don't

have to life poorly because of the despair in the world.

> >

> > The part about Nada's treating children differently...Well I have always

seen this in my family. And what I can see now (especially with my sister gone)

how this set us up for rivalries and disconnectedness. While my mother always

lamented: why can't you all love each other? When she was the one who set us

apart from each other. She was the one who would let my brother bully me

because she did not want to intervene (don't fight...I can't take it...I am a

mental cripple).

> > I realize how this set us up (at least I know my sister and I had this

issue) against the issue of " fairness " . Not just between us, but with the

world! My sister really struggled with this. Whereas I felt as I got older it

was immature to think that way, inside, I still sure did. My mother acts the

'waif' but I noticed long ago what power she wielded with that behavior.

> > In her 'weak' acting, she got all of us attached to her in various ways. My

brother is so sucked in he gets outraged at anyone who causes her discomfort or

trouble. Her perceptions.

> >

> > I was raised in what you might call a semi upper middle class white family

in America. My dad was a lawyer, my mom was a stay at home mom. She did not

really take care of us past the age of 12 ( she made dinners), and emotionally

neither ever took care of us. We had a decent lifestyle. So who can complain,

right? People don't see behind the facade. People don't see the learned

helplessness, the struggle to overcome tremendous shame, the deep deep scars and

open wounds from multiple suicide attempts and father's emotional detachment.

We seem like a normal family on the outside. But..... as time went on, people

could see the bad things. Only I think they don't get where it came from.

> >

> > I am hoping that understanding Life Is Not Fair really does set me free. I

hope that losing my expectations and idealizations will help me to be free. And

that I can live my life better with heart break and not let it pull me under.

> > ~patricia

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with that philosophy insofar as it applies to adults. An adult has the

capacity to make decisions for him or herself, and to accept responsibility for

those decisions. So an adult has the perspective and capacity to choose to view

even unfair situations or abusive people that she encounters in life as a

" learning experience " and to sift out and collect any kernels of personal growth

or insight the negative experience might yield. Its sort of the " fool me once,

shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me " philosophy.

But I do not agree that this philosophy should apply to children.

When a child is emotionally abused, physically battered or sexually exploited

all the child learns is fear, pain, bewilderment, self-loathing/shame and

despair.

Mistreatment by parents is almost universally interpreted by a small child as

being deserved; it makes the child believe she must be bad (not " having done a

bad thing " , but " being bad " or toxic shame) and undeserving of better treatment.

It conditions the child to interpret mistreatment as " love " and to seek out

similar dysfunctional but familiar behaviors in potential life-partners.

There is NO positive learning experience possible with child abuse, no personal

growth or positive insight can be gleaned from it; it causes only damage and

pain and possibly life-long emotional handicaps.

Its true that life isn't fair, but if anyone deserves to be shielded from

unfairness and endure the least amount of possible, its a little child.

-Annie

>

> Hi ,

>

> I loved reading your post--thanks for writing it. I was listening to a Cd on

codependency, and the author was talking about teaching everything and everybody

(including hurtful situations/people and even abuse) as a teacher. If we live

moment to moment (and then she did a school ring tone as an effect), and said

" wow, what is it that we are about to learn next, in this moment in this hour? "

>

> She was inspired to speak about this piece and about elevating ourselves above

a victim stance. I think this helps me.

> In reality, we are victims of victims of victims.

>

> I'm not saying that anyone should feel ashamed of grieving or talking about

their past or anything like that or having strong emotions because of

circumstances. I think it is just a different way of looking at things and it

helps me not to want to " control " and worry about everything in my life at

present. It also helps me connect with people more.

>

> -Joy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...