Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 I'd like to make a few points, not on the topic, but regarding your posting style. If you wish to continue the topic of conversation we can do so if you will consider the following. 1. >take a step back and try to understand my point. It obviously hasn't occured to you that these folks probably *do* understand your point. Just as they understood it a year ago when another individual offered the same opinions, and a year before that, etc., etc., ad nauseum. They simply disagree with you. 2. >magnetass sends I'm sure you think this is cute, but it isn't. it is just annoying. This is (supposed to be) a professional list. Signatures such as yours belong in AOL chat rooms maybe, but not here. List veterans who have established their credibility often sign simply with first name and email address, but all of us have introduced ourselves to the list at one time or another with full name, credentials and geographic location. If you wish to be taken seriously, please do the same. Regards, Donn ================= D.E. (Donn) , LP, RP Brownwood, Texas Safety-Training Coordinator Transocean International D.E. (Donn) , LP ------------------- Email sent using AnyEmail (http://netbula.com/anyemail/) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Too bad, it is a nickname that I earned many years ago, and wear with pride today because it wasn't chosen by me, but by people that I respect and care about. I cannot possibly imagine that my sobriquet " annoys " you so much that you felt it necessary to be such as ass. I am expressing my opinion in a rational manner, and I honestly couldn't care less what you think of my " style " , especially coming from a guy who uses " phudpucker " in his e-mail. I'm sure you think that's cute, but it's just annoying. hugs and kisses, magnetass sends Re: Re Brown County > I'd like to make a few points, not on the topic, but regarding your posting style. If you wish to continue the topic of conversation we can do so if you will consider the following. > > 1. >take a step back and try to understand my point. > > It obviously hasn't occured to you that these folks probably *do* understand your point. Just as they understood it a year ago when another individual offered the same opinions, and a year before that, etc., etc., ad nauseum. They simply disagree with you. > > 2. >magnetass sends > > I'm sure you think this is cute, but it isn't. it is just annoying. This is (supposed to be) a professional list. Signatures such as yours belong in AOL chat rooms maybe, but not here. List veterans who have established their credibility often sign simply with first name and email address, but all of us have introduced ourselves to the list at one time or another with full name, credentials and geographic location. If you wish to be taken seriously, please do the same. > > Regards, > Donn > ================= > D.E. (Donn) , LP, RP > Brownwood, Texas > Safety-Training Coordinator > Transocean International > > > > > > > D.E. (Donn) , LP > > ------------------- > Email sent using AnyEmail (http://netbula.com/anyemail/) > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 You go ! Danny L. Owner/NREMT-P Panhandle Emergency Training Services And Response (PETSAR) Office FAX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Thanks, Donn. Well expressed. Maxine Pate hire, Texas Re: Re Brown County I'd like to make a few points, not on the topic, but regarding your posting style. If you wish to continue the topic of conversation we can do so if you will consider the following. 1. >take a step back and try to understand my point. It obviously hasn't occured to you that these folks probably *do* understand your point. Just as they understood it a year ago when another individual offered the same opinions, and a year before that, etc., etc., ad nauseum. They simply disagree with you. 2. >magnetass sends I'm sure you think this is cute, but it isn't. it is just annoying. This is (supposed to be) a professional list. Signatures such as yours belong in AOL chat rooms maybe, but not here. List veterans who have established their credibility often sign simply with first name and email address, but all of us have introduced ourselves to the list at one time or another with full name, credentials and geographic location. If you wish to be taken seriously, please do the same. Regards, Donn ================= D.E. (Donn) , LP, RP Brownwood, Texas Safety-Training Coordinator Transocean International D.E. (Donn) , LP ------------------- Email sent using AnyEmail (http://netbula.com/anyemail/) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Don't tell anyone at or being served by Acadian Ambulance in La. They have been providing quality air and ground EMS to the majority of that state since before even I was in EMS. Does EMS for profit always work? No. Does municipal EMS always work? No. For-profit or not-for-profit, the type of service does not determine it's success or failure, only the way the service is managed can determine that. Oh BTW: Isn't Hermann Life Flight run by a for-profit organization? I sure hope you aren't suggesting they have no business in EMS! -Thom Seeber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Magnetass, You are obviously not very well versed in the things that you present as factual information. Their are pro's and con's with all variations of provider types. This could be a month long debate. I don't have that kind of time to waste, especially with someone who is not very well prepared to discuss the topic. Andy Weaver ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 I completely agree, for-profit or not-for-profit does not determine its success of failure. There is a growing trend of not-for-profit, EMS organizations reevaluating the way they have managed their organizations. EMS is not only providing your patients emergency medical services, EMS is also about running a business. We all have HR issues, benefits, risks, liabilities, debt, revenue and other business type challenges. We, as leaders in EMS, should be looking at cost efficient ways of providing our services while maintaining optimal standard of care. While there may be examples of private EMS services preforming poorly or even going out of business, Mr. Seeber also gave a couple of examples of similar type agencies doing really well and providing excellent services and also managing to run their business in the " black. " The statement, " Private services have no business in 911. 911 simply is not cost effective. " seems a bit naive, especially when there are examples, like Acadian, that are providing all aspects of " 911 " , doing it well, are making money, and have medics with good job satisfaction. No matter what type of organization you are running, whether you are private, not-for-profit, for-profit, volunteer, 3rd party service, or any other type of arrangement, it is dependant on a budget. Your money may come from taxes, collections, ESDs, donations, or even bake sales. The better you spend and manage your money can equal better equipment, better salaries, better quarters, more CE and hopefully, better service to your customers(patients). One may argue that more money only equals more profit for the owner...could be, but that scenario will not produce an organization like Acadian and some of the other successful organizations. Your challenge, if you are responsible for deciding which organization will provide EMS services for your area, is to make sure you find the right balance in an organization with integrity, good business practices, good patient care principles, and a shared vision for what needs to be provided. Then look at their tax status. Bill Waechter San AirLife >>> tgseeber@... 08/20/03 07:53AM >>> Don't tell anyone at or being served by Acadian Ambulance in La. They have been providing quality air and ground EMS to the majority of that state since before even I was in EMS. Does EMS for profit always work? No. Does municipal EMS always work? No. For-profit or not-for-profit, the type of service does not determine it's success or failure, only the way the service is managed can determine that. Oh BTW: Isn't Hermann Life Flight run by a for-profit organization? I sure hope you aren't suggesting they have no business in EMS! -Thom Seeber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Childre, Children, Children. Go to your rooms. Magnetass wrote: >Too bad, it is a nickname that I earned many years ago, and wear with pride >today because it wasn't chosen by me, but by people that I respect and care >about. I cannot possibly imagine that my sobriquet " annoys " you so much that >you felt it necessary to be such as ass. I am expressing my opinion in a >rational manner, and I honestly couldn't care less what you think of my > " style " , especially coming from a guy who uses " phudpucker " in his e-mail. >I'm sure you think that's cute, but it's just annoying. >hugs and kisses, > >magnetass sends > Re: Re Brown County > > > > >>I'd like to make a few points, not on the topic, but regarding your >> >> >posting style. If you wish to continue the topic of conversation we can do >so if you will consider the following. > > >>1. >take a step back and try to understand my point. >> >>It obviously hasn't occured to you that these folks probably *do* >> >> >understand your point. Just as they understood it a year ago when another >individual offered the same opinions, and a year before that, etc., etc., ad >nauseum. They simply disagree with you. > > >>2. >magnetass sends >> >>I'm sure you think this is cute, but it isn't. it is just annoying. This >> >> >is (supposed to be) a professional list. Signatures such as yours belong in >AOL chat rooms maybe, but not here. List veterans who have established their >credibility often sign simply with first name and email address, but all of >us have introduced ourselves to the list at one time or another with full >name, credentials and geographic location. If you wish to be taken >seriously, please do the same. > > >>Regards, >>Donn >>================= >>D.E. (Donn) , LP, RP >>Brownwood, Texas >>Safety-Training Coordinator >>Transocean International >> >> >> >> >> >> >>D.E. (Donn) , LP >> >>------------------- >>Email sent using AnyEmail (http://netbula.com/anyemail/) >> >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Well, everyone else has thoroughly taken exception with your less than well-informed statement, so I won't. But, an observation is in order: REVENUE (from ALL sources) - COSTS = PROFIT. Profit in even a well-run enterprise is pretty small (10% is HUGE in this business). So in the above equation, PROFIT is the smallest part even in good times. And in not so good times (like most EMS providers), it's 0 or negative. EVEN PUBLIC-SECTOR PROVIDERS DEAL WITH THIS. Even they would love to have money left over from their operations. But, they don't either. So, to blame the " greedy profit motive " for the ills of private services is incorrect. More likely, municipal providers are willing to take money from other operations to fund EMS operations. They still LOSE money. That's why they often go out of business. Wait a minute, PUBLIC services go broke too? OF course, THAT's why they go private to begin with. But the cost structure, which is from 90%-100%+ of revenue (it costs everything they can take in from EMS operations and more to pay salaries, building rents, utilities, truck expenses, etc), is the SAME for public and private companies. They just shift funds from the police dept, or the street dept, etc. to cover, or they go out of business. I have had this debate with a lot of not-for-profit entities before. So, their goal is to break even (really not, even they want money left over). So they want 10% less? What difference does that make, when EMS operations lose 20% of revenue annually? For Profit makes no difference. Having other pots of money to steal from does. And the willingness to do that. Private services are of course not willing to go in the hole constantly. They can't. They don't have taxing authority to make it better. So, are YOU willing to not take a check so the service can stay provided? Or more properly, can you not get paid and survive? No. And neither can a service, any service. It takes money to survive, even for the Public ones. =Steve= Magnetass wrote: >magnetass sends > Re Brown County >> >> >> >> >>>I have received several inquiries about what is going on in Brownwood >>> >>> >and > > >>>Brown County with the EMS service. My firm recently completed an EMS >>> >>> >>needs >> >> >>>analysis for the city and the county. >>> >>>The present provider's contract is up on September 13 and it has >>> >>> >announced > > >>>that it will not continue past that date. >>> >>>Brown County is accepting proposals for provision of EMS for Brownwood >>> >>> >and > > >>>Brown County. >>> >>>It is my understanding that the known interested parties are AMR, R/M, >>> >>> >>ETMC >> >> >>>and Gold Star. I had not heard of Majestic EMS, but I suspect I know >>> >>> >who > > >>it >> >> >>>is. However, I won't speculate until I have more info. >>> >>>The time frame here is very short, since the current service's contract >>> >>> >>ends >> >> >>>September 13. The county and city are looking for a service to come in >>> >>> >>and >> >> >>>provide good quality service immediately, with prospects of a long term >>> >>> >>contract >> >> >>>emerging. >>> >>>We have recommended a number of steps to create a stable EMS system, >>>including establishment of an ESD for adequate financial support, >>> >>> >creation > > >>of an EMS >> >> >>>oversight committee composed of a wide variety of knowledgeable >>> >>> >citizens, > > >>>organization of a unified first response system incorporating the >>> >>> >present > > >>rural >> >> >>>fire departments and perhaps other agencies, using the existing public >>> >>> >>safety >> >> >>>communications system for system control, which has not been done in the >>> >>> >>past, >> >> >>>and an infrastructure that would continually monitor and assess the >>> >>> >>contractee's >> >> >>>performance. >>> >>>However, it will take time to build those structures, and the immediate >>> >>> >>need >> >> >>>is for a stable provider. >>> >>>If anyone is seriously interested in bidding on this service, contact >>> >>> >Hon. > > >>>Ray West, Brown County Judge, at the courthouse in Brownwood, or >>> >>> >>Butts, >> >> >>>City Manager in Brownwood. >>> >>>Gene Gandy >>>HillGandy Associates >>>EMS Consultants >>>PO Box 1651 >>>Albany, TX 76430 >>>903 530-9826 >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 Yep, all private companies are evil doers in the world of EMS, CISM is good, and MAST should still be in use for all trauma patients... Point being, you cannot make a carte blanch statement, >>Is anybody here capable of reading the english language? Good lord people, >>take a step back and try to understand my point. It's kinda hard to fit more than one person into such a narrow viewpoint, but, maybe if you come out first...... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 How about asking any citizen that has ever been stranded by a municipality provider because of lack of funding, or proper EMS adminstraition. There are pros and cons of both types of services. If it wasn't for private providers, many areas across the country would not have any type of EMS provider. Most of the air medical sevices are from for profit organizations. Do we ground them too? Ken Schaaf, EMT-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2003 Report Share Posted August 29, 2003 Sorry have to put my 2 cents in here on this one. What happens to the people when the city or county can no longer afford to provide service? What if the don not want to get in the ambulance business, and decide to contract that service out? Many places would rather contract the service out than do it themselves. Yes, if the private providers don't make enough money to stay in business, they are going to leave. But, this goes with ANY KIND OF BUSINESS, not just EMS. If Q that opens the local gas station does not sell enough gas or other services, he goes out of business. You have to consider that if it were not for these private provuders, there would be NO 911 providers in many cities and counties. If you don't like the private ambulance business, then don't get into it. Stay a volunteer or work for the fire house, be one of " America's Hero's " . It's not always money that has forced the closure of some private providers. Many times it has to do with performance. Wayne -- In , " Magnetass " <magnetass@h...> wrote: > Is anybody here capable of reading the english language? Good lord people, > take a step back and try to understand my point. I don't care if you > disagree with me, but please disagree with what I'm saying. Rural Metro, > AMR, ETMC and any other private service on earth has but 1 motive......to > make profits, period. An agency that is taxpayer supported has 1 motive...to > provide service. Do you see the difference? Obviously everybody has to bill, > however, profits generated by a private company are divided up among private > individuals and shareholders, wheras profits generated by taxpayer agencies > are usually plowed back in the system, or distributed through the taxpayer > system. I know this for sure, they aren't passing it on the the employees, > regardless of what kind of service you work for! > > I'd like to know from somebody in Brown county how successful their current > system is, and why their old service left? > > Private ambulance isn't evil folks, but having them run your 911 system puts > you at great risk of having them leave you in a bad way if they can't > maintain profits. The bottom line is the bottom line, and always will be. > magnetass sends > Re Brown County > > > > > > > > > > I have received several inquiries about what is going on in Brownwood > > and > > > > Brown County with the EMS service. My firm recently completed an EMS > > > needs > > > > analysis for the city and the county. > > > > > > > > The present provider's contract is up on September 13 and it has > > announced > > > > that it will not continue past that date. > > > > > > > > Brown County is accepting proposals for provision of EMS for Brownwood > > and > > > > Brown County. > > > > > > > > It is my understanding that the known interested parties are AMR, R/M, > > > ETMC > > > > and Gold Star. I had not heard of Majestic EMS, but I suspect I know > > who > > > it > > > > is. However, I won't speculate until I have more info. > > > > > > > > The time frame here is very short, since the current service's > contract > > > ends > > > > September 13. The county and city are looking for a service to come > in > > > and > > > > provide good quality service immediately, with prospects of a long > term > > > contract > > > > emerging. > > > > > > > > We have recommended a number of steps to create a stable EMS system, > > > > including establishment of an ESD for adequate financial support, > > creation > > > of an EMS > > > > oversight committee composed of a wide variety of knowledgeable > > citizens, > > > > organization of a unified first response system incorporating the > > present > > > rural > > > > fire departments and perhaps other agencies, using the existing public > > > safety > > > > communications system for system control, which has not been done in > the > > > past, > > > > and an infrastructure that would continually monitor and assess the > > > contractee's > > > > performance. > > > > > > > > However, it will take time to build those structures, and the > immediate > > > need > > > > is for a stable provider. > > > > > > > > If anyone is seriously interested in bidding on this service, contact > > Hon. > > > > Ray West, Brown County Judge, at the courthouse in Brownwood, or > > > Butts, > > > > City Manager in Brownwood. > > > > > > > > Gene Gandy > > > > HillGandy Associates > > > > EMS Consultants > > > > PO Box 1651 > > > > Albany, TX 76430 > > > > 903 530-9826 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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