Re: Can any one help me with this...

[Guest guest]

it has to be hard going through life numb...as for faith, I dont have a lot

of it, after living and seeing what happens to innocents ( children as well

as animals)

Jackie

> Jackie~that is sad to me about your brother...being detached and not

> having emotions. I know of some other people who have described this in

> their siblings. It is so hard to imagine and it makes me wonder about

> this world; I guess I am in a crisis of faith ....because I just don't

> understand why all this struggle exists for so many people.

> ~patricia

>

[Guest guest]

It sounds like you're dealing with a lot here Nakisa. I feel for you. I too seem

to attract narcisisstic partners, and it's very difficult to break out of these

old patterns. I really hope you find healing it sounds like you really need it.

You might be having " lightbulb " moments as we call them here.

You are doing all the right things. Seeking counselling, reading appropriate

materials, taking stock of your current relationships and how your upbringing is

associated with those relationships. Keep it up and I am sorry your partner is

not supportive. It seems he doesn't want to invest any thought, energy, or time

in your healing. That's not fair to you. You NEED to understand BPD, your

abusive past, and where you're heading.

All I can tell you is that I understand, and I know it hurts very badly.

> >

> > ((((((nakisa)))))))

> > Don't worry, this is a safe place for you to talk about your feelings about

your borderline personality-disordered parents. All of us here were raised by

and damaged by a bpd parent or parents, so we understand what you experienced

when you were growing up.

> >

> > It sounds to me like your counselor understands what kind of damage is done

to children raised by bpd parents; he or she is telling you that its OK for you

to grieve for what you did not have: a normal, loving, nurturing mommy and

daddy. I personally think that righteous anger is a normal phase of healing

from the damage. Anger gives you the strength and the power to say " enough is

enough " and lets you individuate from your abusive parents and stop seeing them

through the eyes of the child that you were. Anger lets you see them as the

damaged, toxic, sick people that they really are.

> >

> > However, it sounds like the father of your child is not very empathetic

toward you and not supportive of you emotionally regarding the pain you are

experiencing regarding your abusive parents. So, you have two separate issues

to deal with: (1) how to manage a relationship with your abusive parents, and

(2) how to manage a relationship with your unsympathetic (and possibly abusive)

boyfriend.

> >

> > I'm glad that you are seeing a counselor, and that you are reading " Stop

Walking On Eggshells. " Both of those things can help you understand the

emotional damage done to you by your parents, and help you set boundaries with

your parents and with your boyfriend so that you can have a healthier emotional

life as an independent adult.

> >

> > Keep posting here when and if you can, we understand your situation and

there are members here who are going through very similar situations themselves.

> >

> > Its good to know that you are not alone.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you,   

Subject: Re: Can any one help me with this...

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Received: Tuesday, December 15, 2009, 5:21 PM

 

It sounds like you're dealing with a lot here Nakisa. I feel for you. I too seem

to attract narcisisstic partners, and it's very difficult to break out of these

old patterns. I really hope you find healing it sounds like you really need it.

You might be having " lightbulb " moments as we call them here.

You are doing all the right things. Seeking counselling, reading appropriate

materials, taking stock of your current relationships and how your upbringing is

associated with those relationships. Keep it up and I am sorry your partner is

not supportive. It seems he doesn't want to invest any thought, energy, or time

in your healing. That's not fair to you. You NEED to understand BPD, your

abusive past, and where you're heading.

All I can tell you is that I understand, and I know it hurts very badly.

> >

> > ((((((nakisa) ))))))

> > Don't worry, this is a safe place for you to talk about your feelings about

your borderline personality- disordered parents. All of us here were raised by

and damaged by a bpd parent or parents, so we understand what you experienced

when you were growing up.

> >

> > It sounds to me like your counselor understands what kind of damage is done

to children raised by bpd parents; he or she is telling you that its OK for you

to grieve for what you did not have: a normal, loving, nurturing mommy and

daddy. I personally think that righteous anger is a normal phase of healing from

the damage. Anger gives you the strength and the power to say " enough is enough "

and lets you individuate from your abusive parents and stop seeing them through

the eyes of the child that you were. Anger lets you see them as the damaged,

toxic, sick people that they really are.

> >

> > However, it sounds like the father of your child is not very empathetic

toward you and not supportive of you emotionally regarding the pain you are

experiencing regarding your abusive parents. So, you have two separate issues to

deal with: (1) how to manage a relationship with your abusive parents, and (2)

how to manage a relationship with your unsympathetic (and possibly abusive)

boyfriend.

> >

> > I'm glad that you are seeing a counselor, and that you are reading " Stop

Walking On Eggshells. " Both of those things can help you understand the

emotional damage done to you by your parents, and help you set boundaries with

your parents and with your boyfriend so that you can have a healthier emotional

life as an independent adult.

> >

> > Keep posting here when and if you can, we understand your situation and

there are members here who are going through very similar situations themselves.

> >

> > Its good to know that you are not alone.

> >

> > -Annie

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

__________________________________________________________________

Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr!

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[Guest guest]

Jackie~

i sort of lost my faith over the past couple years; it makes me very sad these

days when I think

about it, but i can't let myself going around praying for things to be " better "

or have the strength

to deal with things, or believe things were " meant to be " .

I've become kind of numb in a way....I mean, I laugh at funny things, and share

conversations and

friendships; but I feel mostly, no joy or pleasure. I know that sounds like

depression, and maybe it is,

maybe it's hormonal (pre-menopause), but it is how I feel.

I was kind of trying to believe in that whole law of attraction thing, but

within one night I felt that whole

thing fall apart (I just can't buy into something that seems to make *some*

people a bunch of money and

yet there is a world of people suffering).

Ah well...maybe this will change one day. I think one of my problems is that I

need connection with others

to feel good but in this mood I am so keeping to myself.

~patricia

Re: Can any one help me with this...

it has to be hard going through life numb...as for faith, I dont have a lot

of it, after living and seeing what happens to innocents ( children as well

as animals)

Jackie

> Jackie~that is sad to me about your brother...being detached and not

> having emotions. I know of some other people who have described this in

> their siblings. It is so hard to imagine and it makes me wonder about

> this world; I guess I am in a crisis of faith ....because I just don't

> understand why all this struggle exists for so many people.

> ~patricia

>

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I understand, , I'm not numb, but I dont believe , exactly, in a

" higher power " I have friends who pray all the time, and I dont see how

that changes anything..I used to pray all the time as a kid, to make my

mother not hate me, to make her stop beating me and stop trying to kill

me...nothing ever changed..I cannot believe I did anything so terrible that

nada was my punishment !!! I cant believe in a " higher power " that allows

innocents to suffer so much ( animals as well) I have 2 siblings that

were/are very religious. I dont understand...have they just swapped one

form of dependency for another ? ( from nada to god?)

I think feeling good comes from with in...you said you need others to feel

good...but it has to start within yourself...and maybe that's why you feel

numb, because you dont feel good about yourself inside...generally I'm a

positive person..I usually look on the brighter side of things, and usually

see the good in others and things around me....I dont think it's a learned

thing, I think it's just part of my personality...it's just always

been...others are not happy inside..I think you can learn to be happy, but

it takes work...

Jackie

> Jackie~

> i sort of lost my faith over the past couple years; it makes me very sad

> these days when I think

> about it, but i can't let myself going around praying for things to be

> " better " or have the strength

> to deal with things, or believe things were " meant to be " .

> I've become kind of numb in a way....I mean, I laugh at funny things, and

> share conversations and

> friendships; but I feel mostly, no joy or pleasure. I know that sounds

> like depression, and maybe it is,

> maybe it's hormonal (pre-menopause), but it is how I feel.

> I was kind of trying to believe in that whole law of attraction thing, but

> within one night I felt that whole

> thing fall apart (I just can't buy into something that seems to make

> *some* people a bunch of money and

> yet there is a world of people suffering).

> Ah well...maybe this will change one day. I think one of my problems is

> that I need connection with others

> to feel good but in this mood I am so keeping to myself.

> ~patricia

[Guest guest]

- I know what you mean about that kind of 'low grade depression' - it

just sort of turns everything to a sepia-tint instead of full color. What

struck me about your post was the combination of losing faith and needing

contact. Here's a theory that has helped me with that same quandry - I believe

that while there may well be a universal collective consciousness, or a Higher

Power, or a cosmic creative force of some kind - we humans need to make our own

miracles. In other words, when we do good, we are the hands of God. So that

makes prayer a kind of problem-solving activity. You identify a problem, and by

praying or meditating on it you are focused on ways to fix whatever it is. But

then you take some kind of action to help solve the problem - and THAT makes the

miracle. We can choose to do small kindnesses when we have the opportunity, and

even though they may be small things, collectively they will certainly add up to

a better world. Just keeping an attitude of looking for ways to do good - no

matter how small the effort is - makes me feel better (because it's easy for me

to fall into negative thinking, too). So it's sort of like being a Boy Scout

eternally on the lookout for that daily good deed - it improves my outlook, does

a little bit of good for somebody, and definitely gives me more connection to

people than I'd have if I were just focused inward. Does that make sense?

>

> Jackie~

> i sort of lost my faith over the past couple years; it makes me very sad these

days when I think

> about it, but i can't let myself going around praying for things to be

" better " or have the strength

> to deal with things, or believe things were " meant to be " .

> I've become kind of numb in a way....I mean, I laugh at funny things, and

share conversations and

> friendships; but I feel mostly, no joy or pleasure. I know that sounds like

depression, and maybe it is,

> maybe it's hormonal (pre-menopause), but it is how I feel.

> I was kind of trying to believe in that whole law of attraction thing, but

within one night I felt that whole

> thing fall apart (I just can't buy into something that seems to make *some*

people a bunch of money and

> yet there is a world of people suffering).

> Ah well...maybe this will change one day. I think one of my problems is that

I need connection with others

> to feel good but in this mood I am so keeping to myself.

> ~patricia

> Re: Can any one help me with this...

>

>

> it has to be hard going through life numb...as for faith, I dont have a lot

> of it, after living and seeing what happens to innocents ( children as well

> as animals)

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> > Jackie~that is sad to me about your brother...being detached and not

> > having emotions. I know of some other people who have described this in

> > their siblings. It is so hard to imagine and it makes me wonder about

> > this world; I guess I am in a crisis of faith ....because I just don't

> > understand why all this struggle exists for so many people.

> > ~patricia

> >

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I like that philosophy; that resonates with me. Thanks for sharing it!

-Annie

> >

> > Jackie~

> > i sort of lost my faith over the past couple years; it makes me very sad

these days when I think

> > about it, but i can't let myself going around praying for things to be

" better " or have the strength

> > to deal with things, or believe things were " meant to be " .

> > I've become kind of numb in a way....I mean, I laugh at funny things, and

share conversations and

> > friendships; but I feel mostly, no joy or pleasure. I know that sounds like

depression, and maybe it is,

> > maybe it's hormonal (pre-menopause), but it is how I feel.

> > I was kind of trying to believe in that whole law of attraction thing, but

within one night I felt that whole

> > thing fall apart (I just can't buy into something that seems to make *some*

people a bunch of money and

> > yet there is a world of people suffering).

> > Ah well...maybe this will change one day. I think one of my problems is

that I need connection with others

> > to feel good but in this mood I am so keeping to myself.

> > ~patricia

> > Re: Can any one help me with this...

> >

> >

> > it has to be hard going through life numb...as for faith, I dont have a

lot

> > of it, after living and seeing what happens to innocents ( children as

well

> > as animals)

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > > Jackie~that is sad to me about your brother...being detached and not

> > > having emotions. I know of some other people who have described this in

> > > their siblings. It is so hard to imagine and it makes me wonder about

> > > this world; I guess I am in a crisis of faith ....because I just don't

> > > understand why all this struggle exists for so many people.

> > > ~patricia

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I think...and please please please do not take this as a pressure to change your

mind or anything like that...but I think that often as humans (particularly as

children) we misunderstand God, and in so doing end up not believing because God

doesn't fit our understanding. I'm not even sure I am articulating that

correctly.

I was raised in a particular church...but more with the rules and regulations of

it and some very warped presentations of it...and left it as a teenager out of

anger, hurt, and the same thoughts you have...how could God, if there is a God,

allow this suffering of innocents? Why didn't my prayers magically change my

mother? I spent many years away, and in my mid 20's found my way back to the

very same church I SWORE I would never ever be a part of again. Other than

therapy, it is far and away the best thing I've done for myself. I'm not saying

it has to be or even would be for you...just what it has been for me.

What I came to understand is this: God doesn't ever promise, anywhere or anyway

that all our prayers will be answered the way we want them to be. God also

doesn't promise that we...that anyone...will be without suffering. I read

several teachings on how God is the author of life, the Creator...not the

destroyer. In a very simplistic explanation of how I understand God, He created

humans with the ability to make choices, our free will...and promised humans

that they would reap what they sowed, that every choice would have intended and

unintended consequences. Just like with good things we do (smiling at a

stranger, for instance), we may never see all the consequences of our

choices...sometimes those conseqences affect people far removed from ourselves.

This was one of the primary lessons of the story of Adam and Eve, even if one

does not take it completely literally: physical human death did not exist until

humans chose to follow their own wills

and not God's, to follow rules that went against what God told them not to do

(eating from the forbidden tree). On a larger scale, over centuries and

millenia, all of humankinds choices have affected all of humanity. God gave us

free will knowing each individual would screw it up at various points and thus

he also promised that we had second chances (forgiveness when we seek it.).

It is complex, and I'm not saying you have to believe it at all...just sharing

it because when it was shared with me it was life transforming. Not

immediately, it took a lot of time and study for me to wrap my head around it.

God never promises that bad things will not happen to innocent people...but He

does promise that He is with us when we suffer. That point was most clearly

brought home to me when I read " A Child Called It " , by Pelzer. It is his

autobiographical account of horrific abuse as a child. In the afterword, he

talks about his faith. He is often asked how he can believe in God after all

the cruelties he endured. He says he believes not " in spite of " but " because

of " ...because he SURVIVED. That his faith comes not from having had his mother

miraculously healed through his prayers and wishes, but that it comes from

knowing he survived it.

I don't believe it is God's will that we suffer. I believe He suffers with us.

Innocent people suffer because of the choices of others. It's unfair. It

sucks. But do we blame God and thus absolve others of their own

responsibilities and choices? Would we rather no person, selves included, never

had ANY choice at all but were just thoughtless robots and pawns?

You wrote this: >> have

> 2 siblings that

> were/are very religious. I dont understand...have

> they just swapped one

> form of dependency for another ? ( from nada to god?)

<<

It may be, or it may not be for them. I know for me, finding my faith was not a

switching of dependency but a burst into FREEDOM from it.

Again...I'm sorry if this sounds preachy at all...I know that faith based posts

can seem that way unintentionally. I know this was really long, too...and I

still feel like I haven't explained it clearly. I think faith, or lack of, is a

highly personal journey and I wouldn't ever presume to tell someone they had to

believe what I believe or take the same road that I've taken.

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: Can any one help me with this...

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 1:11 PM

> I understand, , I'm not numb,

> but I dont believe , exactly, in a

> " higher power "   I have friends who pray all the time,

> and I dont see how

> that changes anything..I used to pray all the time as a

> kid, to make my

> mother not hate me, to make her stop beating me and stop

> trying to kill

> me...nothing ever changed..I cannot believe I did anything

> so terrible that

> nada was my punishment !!!  I cant believe in a

> " higher power " that allows

> innocents to suffer so much ( animals as well)  I have

> 2 siblings that

> were/are very religious.  I dont understand...have

> they just swapped one

> form of dependency for another ? ( from nada to god?)

>

> I think feeling good comes from with in...you said you

> need others to feel

> good...but it has to start within yourself...and maybe

> that's why you feel

> numb, because you dont feel good about yourself

> inside...generally I'm a

> positive person..I usually look on the brighter side of

> things, and usually

> see the good in others and things around me....I dont think

> it's a learned

> thing, I think it's just part of my personality...it's just

> always

> been...others are not happy inside..I think you can learn

> to be happy,  but

> it takes work...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

>

> > Jackie~

> > i sort of lost my faith over the past couple years; it

> makes me very sad

> > these days when I think

> > about it, but i can't let myself going around praying

> for things to be

> > " better " or have the strength

> > to deal with things, or believe things were " meant to

> be " .

> > I've become kind of numb in a way....I mean, I laugh

> at funny things, and

> > share conversations and

> > friendships; but I feel mostly, no joy or

> pleasure.  I know that sounds

> > like depression, and maybe it is,

> > maybe it's hormonal (pre-menopause), but it is how I

> feel.

> > I was kind of trying to believe in that whole law of

> attraction thing, but

> > within one night I felt that whole

> > thing fall apart (I just can't buy into something that

> seems to make

> > *some* people a bunch of money and

> > yet there is a world of people suffering).

> > Ah well...maybe this will change one day.  I

> think one of my problems is

> > that I need connection with others

> > to feel good but in this mood I am so keeping to

> myself. 

> > ~patricia

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

thanks for your insight, and I'm sure my catholic upbringing has a big part

of why I dont really believe..my parents go to church every week..but that's

it, they are not " good " people, they do not help others, ( well, they

started to when they retired and moved back into the town they grew up in,

but they do it for the " look at what good people WE are " and not to help

others) right out of church, nada would scream at people to get out of the

way so we could leave the parking lot ! Also I had to live with nada's

interpretations of things...she was always telling us we were going to hell,

and anything we did that she didn't like, she'd say " there's another black

mark on your soul " meaning that we were such horrible children, we'd never

get into heaven. Nada has always thought of herself as a good Christian

woman..so I looked at her life, what she's done, and think if that's it, I

dont want any part of it...I studied with the Jehovah Witness...and it made

much more sense for the most part..but then again, all the man made rules

and regulations the church put on it's people, I backed out quickly...so I

have my own sort of " religion " it's more like the golden rule + a little

Buddhism, and a little spiritualism..

Jackie

I think...and please please please do not take this as a pressure to change

your mind or anything like that...but I think that often as humans

(particularly as children) we misunderstand God, and in so doing end up not

believing because God doesn't fit our understanding. I'm not even sure I am

articulating that correctly.

I was raised in a particular church...but more with the rules and

regulations of it and some very warped presentations of it...and left it as

a teenager out of anger, hurt, and the same thoughts you have...how could

God, if there is a God, allow this suffering of innocents? Why didn't my

prayers magically change my mother? I spent many years away, and in my mid

20's found my way back to the very same church I SWORE I would never ever be

a part of again. Other than therapy, it is far and away the best thing I've

done for myself. I'm not saying it has to be or even would be for

you...just what it has been for me.

What I came to understand is this: God doesn't ever promise, anywhere or

anyway that all our prayers will be answered the way we want them to be.

God also doesn't promise that we...that anyone...will be without suffering.

I read several teachings on how God is the author of life, the Creator...not

the destroyer. In a very simplistic explanation of how I understand God, He

created humans with the ability to make choices, our free will...and

promised humans that they would reap what they sowed, that every choice

would have intended and unintended consequences. Just like with good things

we do (smiling at a stranger, for instance), we may never see all the

consequences of our choices...sometimes those conseqences affect people far

removed from ourselves. This was one of the primary lessons of the story of

Adam and Eve, even if one does not take it completely literally: physical

human death did not exist until humans chose to follow their own wills

and not God's, to follow rules that went against what God told them not to

do (eating from the forbidden tree). On a larger scale, over centuries and

millenia, all of humankinds choices have affected all of humanity. God gave

us free will knowing each individual would screw it up at various points and

thus he also promised that we had second chances (forgiveness when we seek

it.).

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Thanks for your email. I was thinking about what you said today. I think you

are right about taking action to make our own miracles. In the past, (before I

had such heavy life changes) I felt that way, that I almost could radiate that

attitude and cause my life to be interesting and good. And I've lost that.

Like I said, it could just be depression working on my brain. And this is to be

expected given that half my family has died within a year and a half. both

unexpected. It makes me not want to really be kind to anyone. That probably

sounds horrible, because I am not an unkind person. I have always been kind to

people, but I feel this wall between me and the world. I think it is because on

some level I am angry. Like~ why am I a 'good' person when it doesn't matter at

all? Childish, maybe. I guess I am tired of *trying* to make myself feel

better when ultimately I am so stressed all I can do is focus on the things I

need to get done that never seem to. (I ended up buying a two unit house after

my divorce, out in the country. It is a 'fixer-upper' and though my ADD gives

me lots of ideas and ambition, I easily get overwhelmed and lose motivation. I

am constantly worried. Plus I have a son who has needed me to advocate for him

in school because of his ADD and other things and this is a battle I have not

been able to win...it has been very demoralizing).

What I can take away from your email is that I can pray/meditate on my problems

and then use that as a way to contemplate action, then take actions, no matter

how small. Then if I get the urge to do good for someone, that little tiny

urge...I will.

Thanks

~patricia

Re: Can any one help me with this...

>

>

> it has to be hard going through life numb...as for faith, I dont have a

lot

> of it, after living and seeing what happens to innocents ( children as

well

> as animals)

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> > Jackie~that is sad to me about your brother...being detached and not

> > having emotions. I know of some other people who have described this in

> > their siblings. It is so hard to imagine and it makes me wonder about

> > this world; I guess I am in a crisis of faith ....because I just don't

> > understand why all this struggle exists for so many people.

> > ~patricia

> >

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @... SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE

and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

>>and I'm sure

> my catholic upbringing has a big part

> of why I dont really believe..<<

OH, that just makes me so sad, since the Catholic Church and my return to it

have been the biggest helps to my healing. I'm so sorry your parents denied you

that opportunity by warping it so badly for you. :-( It seems like you are

finding what works for you, though, and that is good.

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: Can any one help me with this...

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 2009, 7:19 PM

> thanks for your insight, and I'm sure

> my catholic upbringing has a big part

> of why I dont really believe..my parents go to church every

> week..but that's

> it, they are not " good " people, they do not help others, (

> well, they

> started to when they retired and moved back into the town

> they grew up in,

> but they do it for the " look at what good people WE are "

> and not to help

> others) right out of church, nada would scream at people to

> get out of the

> way so we could leave the parking lot !  Also I had to

> live with nada's

> interpretations of things...she was always telling us we

> were going to hell,

> and anything we did that she didn't like, she'd say

> " there's another black

> mark on your soul " meaning that we were such horrible

> children, we'd never

> get into heaven.  Nada has always thought of herself

> as a good Christian

> woman..so I looked at her life, what she's done, and

> think  if that's it, I

> dont want any part of it...I studied with the Jehovah

> Witness...and  it made

> much more sense for the most part..but then again, all the

> man made rules

> and regulations the church put on it's people,  I

> backed out quickly...so I

> have my own sort of " religion "   it's more like the

> golden rule + a little

> Buddhism, and a little spiritualism..

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> I think...and please please please do not take this as a

> pressure to change

> your mind or anything like that...but I think that often as

> humans

> (particularly as children) we misunderstand God, and in so

> doing end up not

> believing because God doesn't fit our understanding. 

> I'm not even sure I am

> articulating that correctly.

>

> I was raised in a particular church...but more with the

> rules and

> regulations of it and some very warped presentations of

> it...and left it as

> a teenager out of anger, hurt, and the same thoughts you

> have...how could

> God, if there is a God, allow this suffering of

> innocents?  Why didn't my

> prayers magically change my mother? I spent many years

> away, and in my mid

> 20's found my way back to the very same church I SWORE I

> would never ever be

> a part of again.  Other than therapy, it is far and

> away the best thing I've

> done for myself.  I'm not saying it has to be or even

> would be for

> you...just what it has been for me.

>

> What I came to understand is this:  God doesn't ever

> promise, anywhere or

> anyway that all our prayers will be answered the way we

> want them to be.

> God also doesn't promise that we...that anyone...will be

> without suffering.

> I read several teachings on how God is the author of life,

> the Creator...not

> the destroyer.  In a very simplistic explanation of

> how I understand God, He

> created humans with the ability to make choices, our free

> will...and

> promised humans that they would reap what they sowed, that

> every choice

> would have intended and unintended consequences.  Just

> like with good things

> we do (smiling at a stranger, for instance), we may never

> see all the

> consequences of our choices...sometimes those conseqences

> affect people far

> removed from ourselves.  This was one of the primary

> lessons of the story of

> Adam and Eve, even if one does not take it completely

> literally:  physical

> human death did not exist until humans chose to follow

> their own wills

> and not God's, to follow rules that went against what God

> told them not to

> do (eating from the forbidden tree). On a larger scale,

> over centuries and

> millenia, all of humankinds choices have affected all of

> humanity.  God gave

> us free will knowing each individual would screw it up at

> various points and

> thus he also promised that we had second chances

> (forgiveness when we seek

> it.).

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi, - I'm glad it helped a little. If you've had multiple deaths in

your immediate family in the past year, there's no mystery about why you feel

down, especially at this time of year, especially when there's so much else

going on. The Hans Selye stress scale lists major life events in the order of

the stress they cause - and a death in the family is at the top of the list.

Maybe right now the best " good deeds " you can do will involve small kindnesses

to yourself. But making those small miracles can be something as simple as

picking up a stray wrapper in a parking lot and throwing it into the trash, or

taking the neighbor's dog home when he gets out of the yard. It can just be a

matter of exercising common sense and doing what's right.

You said you felt that there's no payoff for being " good " - but there is. Not

only do you need to know that you are a good person, capable of doing good

things, but more important you are modeling behavior for your son. I know there

must be a huge black cloud over you right now, due to the losses in your life -

but doing the right thing and letting your son see that you will do what's right

even when it's hard - that's an extremely powerful example to set for him.

My son has ADD, too - I know what you mean about being his advocate in school.

Sometimes it seems like they will just not cut the kid a break, and you are " on

duty " all the time. I found that this was especially true in elementary school,

and things improved as he got older and proved he could handle challenging

classes. How old is your son? I ask because there are things you can do to

help him with structure and self-esteem. My son's in high school now, and

although it's not an easy path, he's doing pretty well. There are still plenty

of days when I despair for him, but he manages to pull everything together most

of the time. There are a couple of other moms of older ADD/ADHD kids on the

board here - if we can pass along any info, just ask.

About that overwhelming to-do list - I know that ADD/ADHD makes the list just

seem insurmountable. You probably already know that lists and charts are

valuable tools for ADD folks. They help you to " eat the elephant one bite at a

time. " And if you haven't read Hallowell's " Answers to Distraction " -

it might make you feel better. It's a series of anecdotes/commentary from

adults who live with ADD and cope with it.

Anyway - take it easy and enjoy the holiday break from school with your son.

It's a chance to take a deep breath, if nothing else.

> >

> > Jackie~

> > i sort of lost my faith over the past couple years; it makes me very sad

these days when I think

> > about it, but i can't let myself going around praying for things to be

" better " or have the strength

> > to deal with things, or believe things were " meant to be " .

> > I've become kind of numb in a way....I mean, I laugh at funny things, and

share conversations and

> > friendships; but I feel mostly, no joy or pleasure. I know that sounds

like depression, and maybe it is,

> > maybe it's hormonal (pre-menopause), but it is how I feel.

> > I was kind of trying to believe in that whole law of attraction thing, but

within one night I felt that whole

> > thing fall apart (I just can't buy into something that seems to make

*some* people a bunch of money and

> > yet there is a world of people suffering).

> > Ah well...maybe this will change one day. I think one of my problems is

that I need connection with others

> > to feel good but in this mood I am so keeping to myself.

> > ~patricia

> > Re: Can any one help me with this...

> >

> >

> > it has to be hard going through life numb...as for faith, I dont have a

lot

> > of it, after living and seeing what happens to innocents ( children as

well

> > as animals)

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > > Jackie~that is sad to me about your brother...being detached and not

> > > having emotions. I know of some other people who have described this

in

> > > their siblings. It is so hard to imagine and it makes me wonder about

> > > this world; I guess I am in a crisis of faith ....because I just don't

> > > understand why all this struggle exists for so many people.

> > > ~patricia

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND HER

ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi Jackie,

I've been so busy it has taken me awhile to respond but I definitely appreciate

your words to me. I have also been so sad about my losses; it seems it is

coming out now, especially around xmas. I keep intending to call my mom, and

then I choke up, because what I really want to do is cry my eyes out to her and

I know she would be comforting, but I guess I am feeling there is too much

inside to come out over the phone.

My son is doing a book essay on this novel: Yellow Raft on Blue Water. He has a

very difficult time following the teacher's thoughts and writing so I read

through the Spark Notes version (one of my busy things) and the story is very

sad. There is some kind of good part at the end, but that did not resonate with

me. He was telling me about the different characters, and one was the mother of

another character and it starts with her being in the hospital because of liver

disease and she is dying. When he told me that I just started sobbing (bec. my

sister died from that). And the whole story just reminded me of parts of my

life. The other main character (that one's daughter) tends to idealize people

and situations and feels like an outcast. I could relate to that and it made me

wonder if all my plans for trying to get my life back together is one of those

fantasy things (that this character would do....she wanted to run away to

Seattle where she was from).

You know..I used to be like you, looking on the brighter side of things, and

seeing the good in people. I used to feel such joy and connection to nature.

But in the past couple years I feel that part of me has either died or gone into

deep hiding. I don't mean to complain because I know other people have it

worse, but since my divorce, I have been challenged in almost every way (thank

god my health has been good), and have dealt with people I thought I could or

should be able to trust, only to be betrayed or ignored (bad lawyers, bad

service people, male friends who blamed me for their attraction to me, bad love

relationships) And then my two family members dying (plus my father left us kids

out of his will which really hurt me, he gave all his business assets to his

wife who has plenty and I know that all her assets will go to her children and

grandchildren while my dad's children are not doing so well financially).

My boyfriend really helped to bring out a good side of myself and I felt happy

when I was with him. I realized that it was ME that was coming out, not him

from the outside. But we just meshed that way. Now that he is gone and our

communication is not so great (from his part) it is just another loss and the

winter is coming in very cold (I hate being cold). I know that whole thing

about self esteem/happiness etc coming from within; but I feel like I have tried

for a long time and like I said, used to be optimistic, but now I don't trust

myself, my decisions etc. What I am trying to do is figure out my basic

wants/desire. Like: I want to live in a wamer climate, near the sea. And try to

make that happen ~ we'll see.

Thanks Jackie,

~patricia

Re: Can any one help me with this...

I understand, , I'm not numb, but I dont believe , exactly, in a

" higher power " I have friends who pray all the time, and I dont see how

that changes anything..I used to pray all the time as a kid, to make my

mother not hate me, to make her stop beating me and stop trying to kill

me...nothing ever changed..I cannot believe I did anything so terrible that

nada was my punishment !!! I cant believe in a " higher power " that allows

innocents to suffer so much ( animals as well) I have 2 siblings that

were/are very religious. I dont understand...have they just swapped one

form of dependency for another ? ( from nada to god?)

I think feeling good comes from with in...you said you need others to feel

good...but it has to start within yourself...and maybe that's why you feel

numb, because you dont feel good about yourself inside...generally I'm a

positive person..I usually look on the brighter side of things, and usually

see the good in others and things around me....I dont think it's a learned

thing, I think it's just part of my personality...it's just always

been...others are not happy inside..I think you can learn to be happy, but

it takes work...

Jackie

> Jackie~

> i sort of lost my faith over the past couple years; it makes me very sad

> these days when I think

> about it, but i can't let myself going around praying for things to be

> " better " or have the strength

> to deal with things, or believe things were " meant to be " .

> I've become kind of numb in a way....I mean, I laugh at funny things, and

> share conversations and

> friendships; but I feel mostly, no joy or pleasure. I know that sounds

> like depression, and maybe it is,

> maybe it's hormonal (pre-menopause), but it is how I feel.

> I was kind of trying to believe in that whole law of attraction thing, but

> within one night I felt that whole

> thing fall apart (I just can't buy into something that seems to make

> *some* people a bunch of money and

> yet there is a world of people suffering).

> Ah well...maybe this will change one day. I think one of my problems is

> that I need connection with others

> to feel good but in this mood I am so keeping to myself.

> ~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

hi ,

You have been through hell and you deserve to be down and crying for a

while !! I lost my 8 year old dog to bone cancer in may, my oldest brother

in november ... you need to grieve and dont let others say get over it.,

you will get over it when you are ready, not everyone grieves at the same

pace. you need to grieve you lost childhood, your sister, you lost

relationship with your ex husband and your boyfriend etc....it all builds up

and can be so over whelming at times..and dont ever sell yourself

short...just because some may have it " worse " than you does not mean you

dont have a right to feel badly..I never measure my woes against anyone

else's..I'm me, and I handle things differently than other people ( we are

all individuals in this) and what might really upset me may not even make

another person blink, so if it's making you sad/unhappy, then it is

important to you, no matter what someone else is going through.

Jackie

> Hi Jackie,

> I've been so busy it has taken me awhile to respond but I definitely

> appreciate your words to me. I have also been so sad about my losses; it

> seems it is coming out now, especially around xmas. I keep intending to

> call my mom, and then I choke up, because what I really want to do is cry

> my eyes out to her and I know she would be comforting, but I guess I am

> feeling there is too much inside to come out over the phone.

> My son is doing a book essay on this novel: Yellow Raft on Blue Water. He

> has a very difficult time following the teacher's thoughts and writing so

> I read through the Spark Notes version (one of my busy things) and the

> story is very sad. There is some kind of good part at the end, but that

> did not resonate with me. He was telling me about the different

> characters, and one was the mother of another character and it starts with

> her being in the hospital because of liver disease and she is dying. When

> he told me that I just started sobbing (bec. my sister died from that).

> And the whole story just reminded me of parts of my life. The other main

> character (that one's daughter) tends to idealize people and situations

> and feels like an outcast. I could relate to that and it made me wonder

> if all my plans for trying to get my life back together is one of those

> fantasy things (that this character would do....she wanted to run away to

> Seattle where she was from).

>

> You know..I used to be like you, looking on the brighter side of things,

> and seeing the good in people. I used to feel such joy and connection to

> nature. But in the past couple years I feel that part of me has either

> died or gone into deep hiding. I don't mean to complain because I know

> other people have it worse, but since my divorce, I have been challenged

> in almost every way (thank god my health has been good), and have dealt

> with people I thought I could or should be able to trust, only to be

> betrayed or ignored (bad lawyers, bad service people, male friends who

> blamed me for their attraction to me, bad love relationships) And then my

> two family members dying (plus my father left us kids out of his will

> which really hurt me, he gave all his business assets to his wife who has

> plenty and I know that all her assets will go to her children and

> grandchildren while my dad's children are not doing so well financially).

>

> My boyfriend really helped to bring out a good side of myself and I felt

> happy when I was with him. I realized that it was ME that was coming out,

> not him from the outside. But we just meshed that way. Now that he is

> gone and our communication is not so great (from his part) it is just

> another loss and the winter is coming in very cold (I hate being cold). I

> know that whole thing about self esteem/happiness etc coming from within;

> but I feel like I have tried for a long time and like I said, used to be

> optimistic, but now I don't trust myself, my decisions etc. What I am

> trying to do is figure out my basic wants/desire. Like: I want to live in

> a wamer climate, near the sea. And try to make that happen ~ we'll see.

> Thanks Jackie,

> ~patricia

[Guest guest]

thanks jackie~ it's really hard to function with all this, let alone do what i

need to

to raise my son and to further myself as far as economics goes (ie:find better

paying job,

get more education to get better paying job) and i am tired of so much of these

things

taking away my time i have to do this.

I looked for a bereavement group in this area and could not find one that wasn't

specific

to LGBT (which is big in this area) or child losing a parent sort of thing.

Which seems

strange (it's also such a big self=help area). There is one starting in Feb.

which seems a long

way off, but i will probably sign up for it.

Thanks for your email; I am having a bad day today

~patricia

Re: Can any one help me with this...

hi ,

You have been through hell and you deserve to be down and crying for a

while !! I lost my 8 year old dog to bone cancer in may, my oldest brother

in november ... you need to grieve and dont let others say get over it.,

you will get over it when you are ready, not everyone grieves at the same

pace. you need to grieve you lost childhood, your sister, you lost

relationship with your ex husband and your boyfriend etc....it all builds up

and can be so over whelming at times..and dont ever sell yourself

short...just because some may have it " worse " than you does not mean you

dont have a right to feel badly..I never measure my woes against anyone

else's..I'm me, and I handle things differently than other people ( we are

all individuals in this) and what might really upset me may not even make

another person blink, so if it's making you sad/unhappy, then it is

important to you, no matter what someone else is going through.

Jackie

> Hi Jackie,

> I've been so busy it has taken me awhile to respond but I definitely

> appreciate your words to me. I have also been so sad about my losses; it

> seems it is coming out now, especially around xmas. I keep intending to

> call my mom, and then I choke up, because what I really want to do is cry

> my eyes out to her and I know she would be comforting, but I guess I am

> feeling there is too much inside to come out over the phone.

> My son is doing a book essay on this novel: Yellow Raft on Blue Water. He

> has a very difficult time following the teacher's thoughts and writing so

> I read through the Spark Notes version (one of my busy things) and the

> story is very sad. There is some kind of good part at the end, but that

> did not resonate with me. He was telling me about the different

> characters, and one was the mother of another character and it starts with

> her being in the hospital because of liver disease and she is dying. When

> he told me that I just started sobbing (bec. my sister died from that).

> And the whole story just reminded me of parts of my life. The other main

> character (that one's daughter) tends to idealize people and situations

> and feels like an outcast. I could relate to that and it made me wonder

> if all my plans for trying to get my life back together is one of those

> fantasy things (that this character would do....she wanted to run away to

> Seattle where she was from).

>

> You know..I used to be like you, looking on the brighter side of things,

> and seeing the good in people. I used to feel such joy and connection to

> nature. But in the past couple years I feel that part of me has either

> died or gone into deep hiding. I don't mean to complain because I know

> other people have it worse, but since my divorce, I have been challenged

> in almost every way (thank god my health has been good), and have dealt

> with people I thought I could or should be able to trust, only to be

> betrayed or ignored (bad lawyers, bad service people, male friends who

> blamed me for their attraction to me, bad love relationships) And then my

> two family members dying (plus my father left us kids out of his will

> which really hurt me, he gave all his business assets to his wife who has

> plenty and I know that all her assets will go to her children and

> grandchildren while my dad's children are not doing so well financially).

>

> My boyfriend really helped to bring out a good side of myself and I felt

> happy when I was with him. I realized that it was ME that was coming out,

> not him from the outside. But we just meshed that way. Now that he is

> gone and our communication is not so great (from his part) it is just

> another loss and the winter is coming in very cold (I hate being cold). I

> know that whole thing about self esteem/happiness etc coming from within;

> but I feel like I have tried for a long time and like I said, used to be

> optimistic, but now I don't trust myself, my decisions etc. What I am

> trying to do is figure out my basic wants/desire. Like: I want to live in

> a wamer climate, near the sea. And try to make that happen ~ we'll see.

> Thanks Jackie,

> ~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

hopefully things will look brighter once the holidays are past :-)

Jackie

> thanks jackie~ it's really hard to function with all this, let alone do

> what i need to

> to raise my son and to further myself as far as economics goes (ie:find

> better paying job,

> get more education to get better paying job) and i am tired of so much of

> these things

> taking away my time i have to do this.

> I looked for a bereavement group in this area and could not find one that

> wasn't specific

> to LGBT (which is big in this area) or child losing a parent sort of

> thing. Which seems

> strange (it's also such a big self=help area). There is one starting in

> Feb. which seems a long

> way off, but i will probably sign up for it.

> Thanks for your email; I am having a bad day today

> ~patricia

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I am glad you pointed out some reasons for being " good " . While I would not be

for being " bad " ; I sort of lost a lot of my reasons for anything. But you are

right, it is good for myself to know this internally and also to model for my

son. Probably I knew this, but needed to hear it, so thank you. I know that

the stress level is high; I know of that scale, it just does not seem to relent.

And I am not always sure what to do for myself.

I think my son is doing better in general with school now that he is older (he

is almost 15) but there are things he totally struggles with. Writing is one

and it seems all the darn classes have to include writing so he gets no break

(even phys ed!). Today I practically had to write an essay for him because his

teacher was certainly not teaching him and he was not able to get it in class.

While I am helping him, I try to teach him, though writing essays is hard for me

too. The thing I am grateful for his that he has a very positive demeanor

(though he is also extremely cynical and likes to be on the *evil* side of

things).

I have read Hallowell's books (as well as a ton of others). I do make lists but

usually lose them and find them later, and then I look at them and see that I

have, over time, gotten a lot of the things done on them. What I am trying to

do is to lessen the amount of stuff I have in my house including papers and

therefore making my life more simple. Bit by bit I am getting there. Bit by

bit; I guess that is all I can ask for now.

thanks for your email; I did enjoy my son today and yesterday...tho we are

confined to one room because I ran out of oil and can't get a delivery until

Tuesday, so we are in one room with a pellet stove! That is getting tiresome!

~patricia

Re: Can any one help me with this...

> >

> >

> > it has to be hard going through life numb...as for faith, I dont have

a lot

> > of it, after living and seeing what happens to innocents ( children as

well

> > as animals)

> >

> > Jackie

> >

> >

> >

> > > Jackie~that is sad to me about your brother...being detached and not

> > > having emotions. I know of some other people who have described

this in

> > > their siblings. It is so hard to imagine and it makes me wonder

about

> > > this world; I guess I am in a crisis of faith ....because I just

don't

> > > understand why all this struggle exists for so many people.

> > > ~patricia

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @ SEND

HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

> >

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

> >

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author

SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Dear ,

I was just going through the e-mails that I can not keep up with and I saw this

post. I wanted to say that your old self will come back. Please just hang in

there! There are times we must, must grieve. I lost my sister too, though we

were not able to be very close because she was a severe addict. But I loved her.

My mother was soooo grief stricken, within 6 months she was diagnosed with

terminal cancer and died 9 months later. My daughter was diagnosed with a

serious learning disorder, my sister in law died 3 months after my mom and had

been terminally ill all the while my husband lied to me about it and I did not

know she was dying until 2 days before she died. Three months later my husband

lost his good paying job, then his mother and disabled neice came to live with

us months later...Oh my god, it was hard. I was sooo down. I thought I could

never lift my head up again. When I tried to tell people all that had happened,

I felt out of breath, and would

just give up telling them..it was too much. With the space to grieve, and

crisis counselors to compassionately listen to me, I started to heal. And feel

joy. More and more. Hang in there . You are a strong, intelligent

person. You will be back to your old self..and better too. You have your son on

top of all that. Your son. Yeah!

Leanne

>

> Subject: Re: Can any one help me with this...

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Saturday, December 19, 2009, 1:23 PM

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Hi Jackie,

>

> I've been so busy it has taken me awhile to respond but

> I definitely appreciate your words to me. I have also been

> so sad about my losses; it seems it is coming out now,

> especially around xmas. I keep intending to call my mom,

> and then I choke up, because what I really want to do is cry

> my eyes out to her and I know she would be comforting, but I

> guess I am feeling there is too much inside to come out over

> the phone.

>

> My son is doing a book essay on this novel: Yellow Raft on

> Blue Water. He has a very difficult time following the

> teacher's thoughts and writing so I read through the

> Spark Notes version (one of my busy things) and the story is

> very sad. There is some kind of good part at the end, but

> that did not resonate with me. He was telling me about the

> different characters, and one was the mother of another

> character and it starts with her being in the hospital

> because of liver disease and she is dying. When he told me

> that I just started sobbing (bec. my sister died from that).

> And the whole story just reminded me of parts of my life.

> The other main character (that one's daughter) tends to

> idealize people and situations and feels like an outcast. I

> could relate to that and it made me wonder if all my plans

> for trying to get my life back together is one of those

> fantasy things (that this character would do....she wanted

> to run away to Seattle where she was from).

>

>

>

> You know..I used to be like you, looking on the brighter

> side of things, and seeing the good in people. I used to

> feel such joy and connection to nature. But in the past

> couple years I feel that part of me has either died or gone

> into deep hiding. I don't mean to complain because I

> know other people have it worse, but since my divorce, I

> have been challenged in almost every way (thank god my

> health has been good), and have dealt with people I thought

> I could or should be able to trust, only to be betrayed or

> ignored (bad lawyers, bad service people, male friends who

> blamed me for their attraction to me, bad love

> relationships) And then my two family members dying (plus my

> father left us kids out of his will which really hurt me, he

> gave all his business assets to his wife who has plenty and

> I know that all her assets will go to her children and

> grandchildren while my dad's children are not doing so

> well financially) .

>

>

>

> My boyfriend really helped to bring out a good side of

> myself and I felt happy when I was with him. I realized

> that it was ME that was coming out, not him from the

> outside. But we just meshed that way. Now that he is gone

> and our communication is not so great (from his part) it is

> just another loss and the winter is coming in very cold (I

> hate being cold). I know that whole thing about self

> esteem/happiness etc coming from within; but I feel like I

> have tried for a long time and like I said, used to be

> optimistic, but now I don't trust myself, my decisions

> etc. What I am trying to do is figure out my basic

> wants/desire. Like: I want to live in a wamer climate, near

> the sea. And try to make that happen ~ we'll see.

>

> Thanks Jackie,

>

> ~patricia

>

> Re: Can any one help me with

> this...

>

>

>

> I understand, , I'm not numb, but I dont

> believe , exactly, in a

>

> " higher power " I have friends who pray all the

> time, and I dont see how

>

> that changes anything..I used to pray all the time as a

> kid, to make my

>

> mother not hate me, to make her stop beating me and stop

> trying to kill

>

> me...nothing ever changed..I cannot believe I did

> anything so terrible that

>

> nada was my punishment !!! I cant believe in a

> " higher power " that allows

>

> innocents to suffer so much ( animals as well) I have 2

> siblings that

>

> were/are very religious. I dont understand.. .have they

> just swapped one

>

> form of dependency for another ? ( from nada to god?)

>

>

>

> I think feeling good comes from with in...you said you need

> others to feel

>

> good...but it has to start within yourself...and maybe

> that's why you feel

>

> numb, because you dont feel good about yourself

> inside...generally I'm a

>

> positive person..I usually look on the brighter side of

> things, and usually

>

> see the good in others and things around me....I dont

> think it's a learned

>

> thing, I think it's just part of my personality.

> ..it's just always

>

> been...others are not happy inside..I think you can learn

> to be happy, but

>

> it takes work...

>

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> > Jackie~

>

> > i sort of lost my faith over the past couple years;

> it makes me very sad

>

> > these days when I think

>

> > about it, but i can't let myself going around

> praying for things to be

>

> > " better " or have the strength

>

> > to deal with things, or believe things were

> " meant to be " .

>

> > I've become kind of numb in a way....I mean, I

> laugh at funny things, and

>

> > share conversations and

>

> > friendships; but I feel mostly, no joy or pleasure.

> I know that sounds

>

> > like depression, and maybe it is,

>

> > maybe it's hormonal (pre-menopause) , but it is

> how I feel.

>

> > I was kind of trying to believe in that whole law of

> attraction thing, but

>

> > within one night I felt that whole

>

> > thing fall apart (I just can't buy into

> something that seems to make

>

> > *some* people a bunch of money and

>

> > yet there is a world of people suffering).

>

> > Ah well...maybe this will change one day. I think

> one of my problems is

>

> > that I need connection with others

>

> > to feel good but in this mood I am so keeping to

> myself.

>

> > ~patricia

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

>

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at BPDCentral (DOT)

> com. SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond

> ON THE GROUP.

>

>

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on

> Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your

> copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline

> Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore.

> Welcome to the WTO community!

>

>

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I know, it seems as though xmas is not a great time for many

people...probably more people

than actually enjoy it? Or perhaps an equal mix.

I guess I am getting by bit by bit, having bad days and then better days (today

is a better day), when things

look better.

~patricia

Re: Can any one help me with this...

hopefully things will look brighter once the holidays are past :-)

Jackie

> thanks jackie~ it's really hard to function with all this, let alone do

> what i need to

> to raise my son and to further myself as far as economics goes (ie:find

> better paying job,

> get more education to get better paying job) and i am tired of so much of

> these things

> taking away my time i have to do this.

> I looked for a bereavement group in this area and could not find one that

> wasn't specific

> to LGBT (which is big in this area) or child losing a parent sort of

> thing. Which seems

> strange (it's also such a big self=help area). There is one starting in

> Feb. which seems a long

> way off, but i will probably sign up for it.

> Thanks for your email; I am having a bad day today

> ~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can

find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Dear Leanne,

Thank you for your email; it seems like we have some things in common. My

sister was an addict at one point which led to her contracting Hep C. Because

of a lot of different things but probably mostly because of how she coped with

life events, she turned to alcohol for her depression (after getting off heroin,

crack, then methadone). This is what killed her. But maybe it was a broken

heart. My mom was so upset when my sis was dying she said: I won't watch my

youngest daughter die; if she dies I will go right after her! That freaked me

out a bit; it was too much, you know.... But my mom seems to maybe be coping

better than I am now. But she has company (my sister's two daughters and soon

another of her daughters is going to move in to take care of the other two).

That is sad about your mom and your sister....I am sorry...very sorry. I know

it is a broken thing, a broken life, that of an addicted person. I know that

there is judgment put on these people but that it is not something they want or

can help.

And your sister in law; that sounds really hard too~your brother lying about it.

Gosh...this life can be so hard when things like this happen. I can hardly

relate to people the effects this has all had on me.

You know, in some strange way, I feel empowered by my sister's death....because

I know she lived her life very limited and cut off from her creativity and

happiness and joy. I am deeply sorry for this in her because she did not

realize how others saw her, how talented she was. I spent probably my entire

adult life trying to *help* her make her life better, (co-dependent) but

obviously it never worked. So I feel like I failed. However, it gives me the

incentive to begin to live my own life differently. To take different chances.

To follow my heart. (not sure how, but it is making itself known to me).

And you are right....my son is a joy to me. When he is with me, I feel so glad

about who he is as a person.

Thanks again, Leanne

~patricia

Re: Can any one help me with

> this...

>

>

>

> I understand, , I'm not numb, but I dont

> believe , exactly, in a

>

> " higher power " I have friends who pray all the

> time, and I dont see how

>

> that changes anything..I used to pray all the time as a

> kid, to make my

>

> mother not hate me, to make her stop beating me and stop

> trying to kill

>

> me...nothing ever changed..I cannot believe I did

> anything so terrible that

>

> nada was my punishment !!! I cant believe in a

> " higher power " that allows

>

> innocents to suffer so much ( animals as well) I have 2

> siblings that

>

> were/are very religious. I dont understand.. .have they

> just swapped one

>

> form of dependency for another ? ( from nada to god?)

>

>

>

> I think feeling good comes from with in...you said you need

> others to feel

>

> good...but it has to start within yourself...and maybe

> that's why you feel

>

> numb, because you dont feel good about yourself

> inside...generally I'm a

>

> positive person..I usually look on the brighter side of

> things, and usually

>

> see the good in others and things around me....I dont

> think it's a learned

>

> thing, I think it's just part of my personality.

> ..it's just always

>

> been...others are not happy inside..I think you can learn

> to be happy, but

>

> it takes work...

>

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> > Jackie~

>

> > i sort of lost my faith over the past couple years;

> it makes me very sad

>

> > these days when I think

>

> > about it, but i can't let myself going around

> praying for things to be

>

> > " better " or have the strength

>

> > to deal with things, or believe things were

> " meant to be " .

>

> > I've become kind of numb in a way....I mean, I

> laugh at funny things, and

>

> > share conversations and

>

> > friendships; but I feel mostly, no joy or pleasure.

> I know that sounds

>

> > like depression, and maybe it is,

>

> > maybe it's hormonal (pre-menopause) , but it is

> how I feel.

>

> > I was kind of trying to believe in that whole law of

> attraction thing, but

>

> > within one night I felt that whole

>

> > thing fall apart (I just can't buy into

> something that seems to make

>

> > *some* people a bunch of money and

>

> > yet there is a world of people suffering).

>

> > Ah well...maybe this will change one day. I think

> one of my problems is

>

> > that I need connection with others

>

> > to feel good but in this mood I am so keeping to

> myself.

>

> > ~patricia

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

>

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at BPDCentral (DOT)

> com. SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond

> ON THE GROUP.

>

>

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on

> Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your

> copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline

> Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline

> Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore.

> Welcome to the WTO community!

>

>

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

My sister had no children. She wanted them so badly. I feel numb about my

sister's death. Glad her suffering is over. Glad that my family can no longer

abuse her for her addiction. It was so hard at times to witness that ugliness.

She helped me see that no matter what we are, what we do, we still matter. She

mattered to me. So therefore I matter too. I hold my head higher since her

death.

Leanne

>

>

>

> > From: pd <coyotesun1@earthlin

> k.net>

>

> > Subject: Re: Can any one help me

> with this...

>

> > To: WTOAdultChildren1@

> yahoogroups. com

>

> > Date: Saturday, December 19, 2009, 1:23 PM

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Hi Jackie,

>

> >

>

> > I've been so busy it has taken me awhile to

> respond but

>

> > I definitely appreciate your words to me. I have

> also been

>

> > so sad about my losses; it seems it is coming out

> now,

>

> > especially around xmas. I keep intending to call my

> mom,

>

> > and then I choke up, because what I really want to

> do is cry

>

> > my eyes out to her and I know she would be

> comforting, but I

>

> > guess I am feeling there is too much inside to come

> out over

>

> > the phone.

>

> >

>

> > My son is doing a book essay on this novel: Yellow

> Raft on

>

> > Blue Water. He has a very difficult time following

> the

>

> > teacher's thoughts and writing so I read through

> the

>

> > Spark Notes version (one of my busy things) and the

> story is

>

> > very sad. There is some kind of good part at the

> end, but

>

> > that did not resonate with me. He was telling me

> about the

>

> > different characters, and one was the mother of

> another

>

> > character and it starts with her being in the

> hospital

>

> > because of liver disease and she is dying. When he

> told me

>

> > that I just started sobbing (bec. my sister died

> from that).

>

> > And the whole story just reminded me of parts of my

> life.

>

> > The other main character (that one's daughter)

> tends to

>

> > idealize people and situations and feels like an

> outcast. I

>

> > could relate to that and it made me wonder if all my

> plans

>

> > for trying to get my life back together is one of

> those

>

> > fantasy things (that this character would do....she

> wanted

>

> > to run away to Seattle where she was from).

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > You know..I used to be like you, looking on the

> brighter

>

> > side of things, and seeing the good in people. I

> used to

>

> > feel such joy and connection to nature. But in the

> past

>

> > couple years I feel that part of me has either died

> or gone

>

> > into deep hiding. I don't mean to complain

> because I

>

> > know other people have it worse, but since my

> divorce, I

>

> > have been challenged in almost every way (thank god

> my

>

> > health has been good), and have dealt with people I

> thought

>

> > I could or should be able to trust, only to be

> betrayed or

>

> > ignored (bad lawyers, bad service people, male

> friends who

>

> > blamed me for their attraction to me, bad love

>

> > relationships) And then my two family members dying

> (plus my

>

> > father left us kids out of his will which really

> hurt me, he

>

> > gave all his business assets to his wife who has

> plenty and

>

> > I know that all her assets will go to her children

> and

>

> > grandchildren while my dad's children are not

> doing so

>

> > well financially) .

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > My boyfriend really helped to bring out a good side

> of

>

> > myself and I felt happy when I was with him. I

> realized

>

> > that it was ME that was coming out, not him from

> the

>

> > outside. But we just meshed that way. Now that he

> is gone

>

> > and our communication is not so great (from his

> part) it is

>

> > just another loss and the winter is coming in very

> cold (I

>

> > hate being cold). I know that whole thing about

> self

>

> > esteem/happiness etc coming from within; but I feel

> like I

>

> > have tried for a long time and like I said, used to

> be

>

> > optimistic, but now I don't trust myself, my

> decisions

>

> > etc. What I am trying to do is figure out my basic

>

> > wants/desire. Like: I want to live in a wamer

> climate, near

>

> > the sea. And try to make that happen ~ we'll

> see.

>

> >

>

> > Thanks Jackie,

>

> >

>

> > ~patricia

>

> >

>

> > Re: Can any one help

> me with

>

> > this...

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > I understand, , I'm not numb, but I

> dont

>

> > believe , exactly, in a

>

> >

>

> > " higher power " I have friends who pray

> all the

>

> > time, and I dont see how

>

> >

>

> > that changes anything..I used to pray all the time

> as a

>

> > kid, to make my

>

> >

>

> > mother not hate me, to make her stop beating me

> and stop

>

> > trying to kill

>

> >

>

> > me...nothing ever changed..I cannot believe I did

>

> > anything so terrible that

>

> >

>

> > nada was my punishment !!! I cant believe in a

>

> > " higher power " that allows

>

> >

>

> > innocents to suffer so much ( animals as well) I

> have 2

>

> > siblings that

>

> >

>

> > were/are very religious. I dont understand..

> .have they

>

> > just swapped one

>

> >

>

> > form of dependency for another ? ( from nada to

> god?)

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > I think feeling good comes from with in...you said

> you need

>

> > others to feel

>

> >

>

> > good...but it has to start within yourself...and

> maybe

>

> > that's why you feel

>

> >

>

> > numb, because you dont feel good about yourself

>

> > inside...generally I'm a

>

> >

>

> > positive person..I usually look on the brighter

> side of

>

> > things, and usually

>

> >

>

> > see the good in others and things around me....I

> dont

>

> > think it's a learned

>

> >

>

> > thing, I think it's just part of my

> personality.

>

> > ..it's just always

>

> >

>

> > been...others are not happy inside..I think you

> can learn

>

> > to be happy, but

>

> >

>

> > it takes work...

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Jackie

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > > Jackie~

>

> >

>

> > > i sort of lost my faith over the past couple

> years;

>

> > it makes me very sad

>

> >

>

> > > these days when I think

>

> >

>

> > > about it, but i can't let myself going

> around

>

> > praying for things to be

>

> >

>

> > > " better " or have the strength

>

> >

>

> > > to deal with things, or believe things were

>

> > " meant to be " .

>

> >

>

> > > I've become kind of numb in a way....I

> mean, I

>

> > laugh at funny things, and

>

> >

>

> > > share conversations and

>

> >

>

> > > friendships; but I feel mostly, no joy or

> pleasure.

>

> > I know that sounds

>

> >

>

> > > like depression, and maybe it is,

>

> >

>

> > > maybe it's hormonal (pre-menopause) , but

> it is

>

> > how I feel.

>

> >

>

> > > I was kind of trying to believe in that whole

> law of

>

> > attraction thing, but

>

> >

>

> > > within one night I felt that whole

>

> >

>

> > > thing fall apart (I just can't buy into

>

> > something that seems to make

>

> >

>

> > > *some* people a bunch of money and

>

> >

>

> > > yet there is a world of people suffering).

>

> >

>

> > > Ah well...maybe this will change one day. I

> think

>

> > one of my problems is

>

> >

>

> > > that I need connection with others

>

> >

>

> > > to feel good but in this mood I am so keeping

> to

>

> > myself.

>

> >

>

> > > ~patricia

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for

> help at BPDCentral (DOT)

>

> > com. SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT

> Respond

>

> > ON THE GROUP.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on

>

> > Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL ()

> for your

>

> > copy. We also refer to " Understanding the

> Borderline

>

> > Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the

> Borderline

>

> > Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any

> bookstore.

>

> > Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online

> Community

>

> > and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.Yahoo! Groups

> Links

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

>

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> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

, I feel the same about my brother. I had a brother who drank

himself to death. he ended up having a massive heart attack at age 52. he

was very thin, a heavy smoker and drug user. he drank rather than ate..he

said it's drowned the pain...he was very intelligent, and could have made a

great life for himself, but he turned to the bottle rather than a

therapist. He died dec 2004.

Jackie

Dear Leanne,

Thank you for your email; it seems like we have some things in common. My

sister was an addict at one point which led to her contracting Hep C.

Because of a lot of different things but probably mostly because of how she

coped with life events, she turned to alcohol for her depression (after

getting off heroin, crack, then methadone). This is what killed her. But

maybe it was a broken heart. My mom was so upset when my sis was dying she

said: I won't watch my youngest daughter die; if she dies I will go right

after her! That freaked me out a bit; it was too much, you know.... But

my mom seems to maybe be coping better than I am now. But she has company

(my sister's two daughters and soon another of her daughters is going to

move in to take care of the other two).

That is sad about your mom and your sister....I am sorry...very sorry. I

know it is a broken thing, a broken life, that of an addicted person. I

know that there is judgment put on these people but that it is not something

they want or can help.

And your sister in law; that sounds really hard too~your brother lying about

it. Gosh...this life can be so hard when things like this happen. I can

hardly relate to people the effects this has all had on me.

You know, in some strange way, I feel empowered by my sister's

death....because I know she lived her life very limited and cut off from her

creativity and happiness and joy. I am deeply sorry for this in her because

she did not realize how others saw her, how talented she was. I spent

probably my entire adult life trying to *help* her make her life better,

(co-dependent) but obviously it never worked. So I feel like I failed.

However, it gives me the incentive to begin to live my own life differently.

To take different chances. To follow my heart. (not sure how, but it is

making itself known to me).

And you are right....my son is a joy to me. When he is with me, I feel so

glad about who he is as a person.

Thanks again, Leanne

~patricia

[Guest guest]

Hi Jackie,

I am sorry to hear about your brother. I know the sorrow lived as a sibling of

such a person, when you

know there is something more in that person that can be lived. But that person

just can't do it.

It's a horrible way to go. About a few weeks before my sister died, she was in

the hospital and she was

crying: I did this to myself. It was a time too late for her. It kills me to

think of it. I tried and tried to

get her to change. But we know how this goes.

Sorry.....

~patricia

Re: Can any one help me with this...

, I feel the same about my brother. I had a brother who drank

himself to death. he ended up having a massive heart attack at age 52. he

was very thin, a heavy smoker and drug user. he drank rather than ate..he

said it's drowned the pain...he was very intelligent, and could have made a

great life for himself, but he turned to the bottle rather than a

therapist. He died dec 2004.

Jackie

Dear Leanne,

Thank you for your email; it seems like we have some things in common. My

sister was an addict at one point which led to her contracting Hep C.

Because of a lot of different things but probably mostly because of how she

coped with life events, she turned to alcohol for her depression (after

getting off heroin, crack, then methadone). This is what killed her. But

maybe it was a broken heart. My mom was so upset when my sis was dying she

said: I won't watch my youngest daughter die; if she dies I will go right

after her! That freaked me out a bit; it was too much, you know.... But

my mom seems to maybe be coping better than I am now. But she has company

(my sister's two daughters and soon another of her daughters is going to

move in to take care of the other two).

That is sad about your mom and your sister....I am sorry...very sorry. I

know it is a broken thing, a broken life, that of an addicted person. I

know that there is judgment put on these people but that it is not something

they want or can help.

And your sister in law; that sounds really hard too~your brother lying about

it. Gosh...this life can be so hard when things like this happen. I can

hardly relate to people the effects this has all had on me.

You know, in some strange way, I feel empowered by my sister's

death....because I know she lived her life very limited and cut off from her

creativity and happiness and joy. I am deeply sorry for this in her because

she did not realize how others saw her, how talented she was. I spent

probably my entire adult life trying to *help* her make her life better,

(co-dependent) but obviously it never worked. So I feel like I failed.

However, it gives me the incentive to begin to live my own life differently.

To take different chances. To follow my heart. (not sure how, but it is

making itself known to me).

And you are right....my son is a joy to me. When he is with me, I feel so

glad about who he is as a person.

Thanks again, Leanne

~patricia

------------------------------------

Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP.

To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL

() for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline

Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you

can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and

the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

thanks , I've lost both brothers...the one in 2004 and the other one

this past november, but he died of pneumonia after going through radiation

and chemo the previous few months. You are right, just like with our BPD

parent, we cant help those who dont want help...

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

I am sorry to hear about your brother. I know the sorrow lived as a sibling

of such a person, when you

know there is something more in that person that can be lived. But that

person just can't do it.

It's a horrible way to go. About a few weeks before my sister died, she was

in the hospital and she was

crying: I did this to myself. It was a time too late for her. It kills me

to think of it. I tried and tried to

get her to change. But we know how this goes.

Sorry.....

~patricia