Re: Care to share Christmas memories of being a BPD's child?

[Guest guest]

Jackie,when I read what you wrote about your nada/fada never listening to the

radio in the car or just listening to the news in the morning and then turning

it off,I got this immediate impression of depressing sterility in the

environment you were in--like your nada and fada were dead inside and had no

inner life...wow...it sounds like driving in a car with a pair of joyless

zombies...

>

> my nada and fada just never listened to music..and never understood why I

> wanted to...drives in the car were especially hard...8-10 hours with the

> radio OFF ( the radio was never on in the car, ever) they listened to the

> news on the radio in the morning and then turned it off

>

>

>

> Jackie

>

[Guest guest]

I've always dreaded Christmas.

Somehow I survived the holiday- the whole day being carefully orchestrated by

nada, so it would fit her needs. It was all about her. But the day had to

include drama, because if there wasn't drama, well, it just wasn't Christmas.

Even though I live in the same small town as nada, I have distanced myself from

her over the years.

Two years ago on Christmas Eve, my husband called her on the phone to thank her

for the early Christmas gift. She started yelling at him

for something he had said about six months earlier. So instead of having

Christmas dinner at her house the next night, we went to the Chinese buffet by

ourselves.

Last year, we were invited again for Christmas dinner, and thought it could

work, because my sister and new husband, and my teen aged kids

would all be there. We had a really nice time. (How could that be? that doesn't

seem right; nada better fix that... ) But wait! Two days later, nada accused my

husband of stealing from her Christmas night!

Christmas with nada was no less dramatic at age 50 than it was at 13.

Now there will be no more horrible Christmas memories to be made with her,

because Dec. 25, 2008, was the last time I will have stepped into her house.

Merry Christmas!

Bridget

> > >

> > > I was wondering if you guys would share some distorted memories you might

> > > have surrounding the holidays? I know for my mother, causing drama at the

> > > holidays was her forte. She loved to create issues and arguments and have

a

> > > big blow out with other family members. She would complain because we had

to

> > > pack up and travel to my grandmother's and complain if relatives came to

> > > our house. No one could win.

> > >

> > > Her most recent drama was when I invited her and my dad to my house (280

> > > miles away) for Christmas. She arrived from florida around 6 pm christmas

eve

> > > night and left before noon christmas day...she refused to turn the tv

from

> > > CNN and kept saying her pipes were going to freeze and she had to go

home.

> > > When I got mad because they were leaving, she accused me of not caring

> > > that they were going to 'lose everything they had' if their pipes froze.

One,

> > > they live IN FLORIDA and two, my sister was a whole 20 minutes away and

> > > could go turn the light to their pump house for them if need be.

> > >

> > > My uncle later called me and said he yelled at her for being such a weirdo

> > > about going out of her house. It didn't matter, though. She didn't care

how

> > > she affected anyone else...my son cried for hours after they left because

> > > he was so excited they were coming (he wasn't around them enough to know

> > > they weren't normal).

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I have only recently found this website and also recently realised my mum is

bpd. But this post touched me. Although it wasn't Xmas day (too many

witnesses!!!), it was around that time. My nada wanted me to PLAY music. I had

to play the piano for her which I really hated. Unfortunately I was pretty good

at it, and sometimes I could play what I wanted but that was really a compromise

because I didn't want to play it at all. I was guilted into it for many years

being the last kid of four. All those Christmases and other occations during the

year (mothers day, easter, her birthday) I was berated with the fact that the

other kids had left home and left her all alone (single mum), no one had called,

no one visited etc. I bought in to it for all my teenage years thinking they

were all horrible to her so I tried even harder to make up for her terrible loss

with thoughful pressents and surprise flowers or gifts. But of course they

weren't from the other three kids so they wasn't good enough. I do remember one

time while being on the piano and particularly hating it because I had been

invited out with friends but she guilted me into staying at home instead, that I

answered back when she told me to replay something as I'd made a mistake. I

would usually bite my tongue and just play it again, but I was becoming a

teenager and asserting some backchat, so I told her to shut up (in the nicest

possible way). Nada stormed down the hallway and backhanded me across the face

causing me to fall onto my back off the piano stool, I thought she broke my

chin. Needless to say once I left home at 19 I've never played the piano again.

>

> Did anyone else have a problem with nada and music? On Christmas Day it was

very important for nada to try and force me to listen to music she knew I

despised. She would put on a cd and blare it throughout the house. It really

bothered me that my brother--who WAS A MUSICIAN--would not support me on it. He

would just be all split white and say oh, let her play her music, Charlie. So I

would be forced to pose as the 'bad guy' because I just couldn't stand the

stuff. I mean I REALLY couldn't stand it. (She had odious, odious, odious

taste in music.) This NEVER got old for her. She tried it literally every

year. It was a win-win for her, because if I listened to the music, she got to

make me truly miserable, and if I complained and turned it off, she got to look

all childishly sad at how mean, judgmental and scrooge-ish I looked, especially

in front of my split white brother and the various people there (for it seems we

always had some or other new person there--someone's date or guest or new

husband). This may not sound like the worst thing we've posted about on the

board, certainly it's not technically the worst thing *I* have listed but it may

be the one that bothers me the most. She knew that it really, really bothered

me--and she LOVED it! And before I knew about bpd I JUST couldn't make sense of

it. She knew how much it disturbed me, why would she keep trying, year after

year? It's amazing that all those years, before I knew of bpd, I just couldn't

fathom that she would *want* to make me uncomfortable. I would jus think she

wanted 'her' music, THAT bad--which is absurd because she is not at all a music

fan and never listens to the stuff. (Which explains her hideous and did I say

HIDEOUS taste?) Well, now she can play whatever she wants for the rest of her

life!! And noone else cares what music she puts on, so she will lose that

particular little evil thrill. --Charlie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That was so sweet of you,to make a quiche from scratch for your nada.If someone

did that for me,I'd be thrilled to bits.I love it when people cook something for

me just because it's something I like.And she didn't even touch it?!

Your nada sounds really really passive aggressive.And refusing to be pleased

is such a classic abuser's tactic.What a shame that she has a daughter who wants

to make her happy yet insists on being miserable instead.

>

> Holidays have always been the worst for my nada. Every year I still get

anxious.

>

> After reading your post I tried to think of specific things from holidays as a

child, but I just come up blank! I remember they are usually bad, but can't seem

to remember ANY detail at all. I'm sure there was plenty of screaming and

throwing things, though. She likes to throw temper tantrums.

>

> I do remember that any gift giving holiday was a nightmare for me because it

didn't matter what I gave her - it would be hit or miss if she liked it or not.

I literally gave her the same chocolates this year as last, and she loved it

last year and said it was horrible this year and gave them back to me. As a kid

I know I couldn't ever give a gift she liked and then she would tell me how

selfish I was because she gave me all these gifts and I just gave her horrible

gifts. Even last week I had a nightmare that I was at her house and she was

giving me tons of gifts and I realized I had nothing for her and I was in a

panic. Of course the gifts SHE usually gives are usually stuff I don't really

want, like strange figurines that I end up selling on ebay, or bubble bath when

I lived in an apartment with no tub...

>

> She's also very weird about food. I had her over for my dad's bday last month.

Usually she complains that I don't cook from scratch like she does, or I don't

use natural ingredients, or yadda yadda. So this time I made a spinach quiche

(something she has made for me growing up, so I figured she'd like it) with all

organic ingredients and the whole time freaking out that it would turn out ok

(cooking is like a chemistry experiment for me, and doesn't always work - this

is really the first time I've ever cooked for her from scratch...). It turned

out great but she didn't even TOUCH it. She ate the cookies she brought instead.

Seriously. Then she told me it was because she's not eating eggs anymore, and

bragged about how her cookies had no eggs or milk. Of course last night she made

stuff with eggs and she ate plenty...

>

> It's Hanukkah now and needless to say she was miserable as usual when I went

last night to visit with my SO and brother. She didn't like ANYTHING I brought

and gave it all back.

>

> Like usual after visiting her, my bf tells me, " your mother is so difficult. "

I'll say! That about explains her perfectly.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, the " very difficult if not impossible to please " stuff seem to be pretty

pervasive with nadas; I think its part of the " abusive expectations " behaviors

which are more typical of narcissistic pd.

No gift given to nada is appreciated if it is acknowledged at all, dishes

prepared especially for nada are rejected, no amount of time and attention she

is given are ever enough, no tasks are ever performed to her standards, etc.

Being un-pleasable puts one in an unassailable position of superiority; its

quite an effective power tactic, actually.

I've tolerated obnoxious, overbearing behavior from nada that I would never

accept from another human being *only because she is my mother*

AND its always been a one-way street. The one or two times I ever dared to

mirror back to her the condescending tone of voice and insulting remarks that

she has habitually directed at me (when I am painted all-black) she nearly went

into shock.

She truly does not perceive that what she says cuts bone-deep and makes lasting

scars; either that or she simply feels she has the right to behave that way

toward me and wants to be insulting, superior and hurtful.

-Annie

>

> That was so sweet of you,to make a quiche from scratch for your nada.If

someone did that for me,I'd be thrilled to bits.I love it when people cook

something for me just because it's something I like.And she didn't even touch

it?!

>

> Your nada sounds really really passive aggressive.And refusing to be

pleased is such a classic abuser's tactic.What a shame that she has a daughter

who wants to make her happy yet insists on being miserable instead.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good for you for drawing the line! I couldn't help but laugh at this:

" But the day had to include drama, because if there wasn't drama, well, it just

wasn't Christmas. " It may be a rueful laugh, but it's still funny.

---- bridgetsbell wrote:

>

>

> I've always dreaded Christmas.

>

> Somehow I survived the holiday- the whole day being carefully orchestrated by

nada, so it would fit her needs. It was all about her. But the day had to

include drama, because if there wasn't drama, well, it just wasn't Christmas.

>

> Even though I live in the same small town as nada, I have distanced myself

from her over the years.

> Two years ago on Christmas Eve, my husband called her on the phone to thank

her for the early Christmas gift. She started yelling at him

> for something he had said about six months earlier. So instead of having

Christmas dinner at her house the next night, we went to the Chinese buffet by

ourselves.

>

> Last year, we were invited again for Christmas dinner, and thought it could

work, because my sister and new husband, and my teen aged kids

> would all be there. We had a really nice time. (How could that be? that

doesn't seem right; nada better fix that... ) But wait! Two days later, nada

accused my husband of stealing from her Christmas night!

>

> Christmas with nada was no less dramatic at age 50 than it was at 13.

> Now there will be no more horrible Christmas memories to be made with her,

because Dec. 25, 2008, was the last time I will have stepped into her house.

>

> Merry Christmas!

> Bridget

[Guest guest]

When I was about ten, my parents had gone to a christmas party one evening. The

next morning they had a horrible fight. My brother and sister were still

sleeping. My mother was smashing all the breakfast dishes as she screamed at my

father. I was really too young to understand what was happening, but I know I

was very afraid. My father didn't say a word. And she kept smashing dish after

dish. At one point I remember taking the broom out and trying to sweep up the

broken glass. She just keep smashing things and I remember having to hide

behind the door to keep from getting hit. Neither of them even acknowledged I

was in the room or that the fight was going on in front of me. It was like I

didn't exist. That became the common theme in the rest of my upbringing. I

remember going and waking up my sister because I was afraid. I was terrified of

my sister so I must have been really afraid if I was willing to wake her up.

This all happened Christmas Eve morning.

No one spoke the rest of the day. It was that cold silence that was just awful.

Painful silence. Many years later later I asked my mother what happened. She

was in a jealous rage over a comment a woman had made at the party they had been

at the night before. It was a catty remark that hinted at infidelity on the

part of my father. My father was so hurt that my mother would even think he

could do such a thing that he couldn't defend himself. So his silence just fed

her rage.

She continued to have that same jealousy until he died. He shared with me from

his heart that in their 61 years together he had never been unfaithful and had

never had the desire to be. He was indeed a loyal and faithful husband. He

was with her every moment. It was her jealousy that kept them from living in a

senior living retirement community and ran him into the ground waiting on her

hand and foot until there was just nothing left of him. Now I know he made his

choice. But it was still a tragedy to me. He gave her is word and because of

that, he would not leave.

>

> I was wondering if you guys would share some distorted memories you might

> have surrounding the holidays? I know for my mother, causing drama at the

> holidays was her forte. She loved to create issues and arguments and have a

> big blow out with other family members. She would complain because we had to

> pack up and travel to my grandmother's and complain if relatives came to

> our house. No one could win.

>

> Her most recent drama was when I invited her and my dad to my house (280

> miles away) for Christmas. She arrived from florida around 6 pm christmas eve

> night and left before noon christmas day...she refused to turn the tv from

> CNN and kept saying her pipes were going to freeze and she had to go home.

> When I got mad because they were leaving, she accused me of not caring

> that they were going to 'lose everything they had' if their pipes froze.

One,

> they live IN FLORIDA and two, my sister was a whole 20 minutes away and

> could go turn the light to their pump house for them if need be.

>

> My uncle later called me and said he yelled at her for being such a weirdo

> about going out of her house. It didn't matter, though. She didn't care how

> she affected anyone else...my son cried for hours after they left because

> he was so excited they were coming (he wasn't around them enough to know

> they weren't normal).

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You know,Jackie,it seems to me that that IS punishment in itself,to expect a

child to remain absolutely silent during a long car trip.I mean,you already were

being punished anyway--and your nada was expecting an unnatural amount of self

discipline and self control from a kid--and then had the gall (calling it as I

see it) to threaten even further punishment if you " indulged " in a very

normal,natural urge to say something????

And yes,it's really absurd for someone to say that noise makes them nervous

and then to have five kids! It's just goes to show how BPDs cannot adjust

themselves to circumstances or adapt,but expect everyone else (even children) to

adapt and adjust themselves to THEM.I don't think that the " children " part,as in

but they're just kids,even enters into it for them,only their own needs do.

I'm not surprised that the silence in the car thing turned out to be all

about her.Those trips most surely must have been a nightmare for you,a nightmare

of stifling your natural self.Nadas excel at forcing us to do that--which is why

they totally suck as mothers...

>

> LOL oh, it WAS...we weren't even allowed to talk ( it would distract fada)

> so our long car trips were a nightmare...and seemed to last days instead of

> hours...in the car and absolute silence until the car stops...years later we

> learned this was NADA's doing...SHE was the one who got distracted and

> nervous because of the radio/talking, not fada...nada always said noise made

> her nervous...( yet she had FIVE kids ??? yup, we were expected to be quiet

> or get punished)

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Jackie,when I read what you wrote about your nada/fada never listening to

> the radio in the car or just listening to the news in the morning and then

> turning it off,I got this immediate impression of depressing sterility in

> the environment you were in--like your nada and fada were dead inside and

> had no inner life...wow...it sounds like driving in a car with a pair of

> joyless zombies...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is interesting; my nada and NPD stepnada also drove around in the car

without the radio on; I had not realized this until I read the posts.

One of the last visits I had (stepnada died in 1994) was to take a tourist trip

with them. Nada directed fada the entire time, telling him " watch out, turn

here " etc. At one point, nada became so enraged about the traffic, fada did a U

turn in the four lane highway just to keep her quiet.

Ahhhhhhhh, those memories.

>

> LOL oh, it WAS...we weren't even allowed to talk ( it would distract fada)

> so our long car trips were a nightmare...and seemed to last days instead of

> hours...in the car and absolute silence until the car stops...years later we

> learned this was NADA's doing...SHE was the one who got distracted and

> nervous because of the radio/talking, not fada...nada always said noise made

> her nervous...( yet she had FIVE kids ??? yup, we were expected to be quiet

> or get punished)

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Jackie,when I read what you wrote about your nada/fada never listening to

> the radio in the car or just listening to the news in the morning and then

> turning it off,I got this immediate impression of depressing sterility in

> the environment you were in--like your nada and fada were dead inside and

> had no inner life...wow...it sounds like driving in a car with a pair of

> joyless zombies...

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I still have such a hard time with " that was abuse, that was neglect " ... it's

not that it's denial really... I'm very clear about it actually happening... I

just think that abuse and neglect imply " intent " and I really thing Nada was too

far gone in her own head/actions to notice (never mind give a crap) what she was

doing and the effects she had on me.

Therapist understands what I'm seeing... doesn't necessarily think I'm right but

for now, she understands.

The Christmas storm is coming to town on Friday.... the reindeer quit.

Lynnette

> > >

> > >

> > > Mine are milder than you all's. Lynette, you were so unprotected it

> > > makes my stomach wrench. Like me, you use laughter to lighten the

> > > heaviness. I finally see someone who compensates even more than I do!

> > >

> > > My one memory is this one: One Christmas, when my bro was 1 or 2

> > > years old, my parents had a big blow out fight. My dad retreated

> > > into our family room with the door closed, refusing to participate in

> > > the family event. We tried to play the piano and be cheerful, but we

> > > kids weren't fooled. That Christmas that my best gift was one my mom

> > > thought I needed. A violin case for the rattly violin that came with

> > > her to the US from her childhood in war-torn Germany. (I peeked under

> > > the wrap and so I guess I got what I deserved LOL) I loved music, but

> > > the violin was never my instrument. Mom would best have encouraged me

> > > with voice, but she did that only through church. (That mission--to

> > > have me glorify God with my voice, toppled with a heavy thud, the

> > > day she kicked me on the floor of the passenger seat all the way to

> > > the choir practice... Perhaps she too could not live with the irony.)

> > >

> > > That is really my landmark Christmas. The ones I came home for (just

> > > twice) as an adult were quite joyless and had no little spiritual

> > > meaning either. I always liked seeing my bro, but I was I guess, a

> > > big threat to nada's reign of terror, so there was big relief when I

> > > went back to college.

> > >

> > > It does take some work to redeem Christmases memories like this! In

> > > fact, before kids, my DH and I would find something really outside the

> > > box to do at Christmastime. It helps that he was raised Baha'i. With

> > > a child, I struggle each year. And vow to make it happier, or at

> > > least more peaceful each year. I suspect this year will be no

> > > different. But each year I learn something and usually find a new way

> > > to set myself free and find peace with the ambivalent feelings.

> > > Christmas is my son's favorite holiday so far. I do wish it were not

> > > so commercially driven, but am accepting that there are things I can

> > > do to make the holiday OURs.

> > >

> > > Me, I am happiest with Thanksgiving, because it is the perfect holiday

> > > for friends.

> > >

> > > Maybe any holiday that you can bring friends into, has the potential

> > > to transform FOO-ey memories.

> > >

> > > Best,

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

My nada made Christmas a horrible time for me growing up - at least most of it.

Every year on Christmas Eve we would go to my father's co-worker/best friend's

house where nada would preside over me watching every move I made. I was

lectured before hand to to be 'a little lady' and told to 'obey her'. While

the other children there played, I was made to sit at their dining room table

and not move a muscle. They would have a buffet and I was watched like a hawk

by nada who would put the food on my plate (even though I was old enough to get

my own food in the later years) and I was not to take a morsel more. My plate

was extremely sparse and of course the hostess would say " that's not enough food

to keep a bird alive, ! There's plenty here! Let her take some more. " To

which nada would reply, " She's too fat as it is " . I wasn't fat at all, but we

are all large boned in my family on both sides so I would never be Twiggy no

matter what I did. Come dessert time, I was allowed either one cookie or an

extremely small sliver of cake or pie so tiny you needed a magnifying glass to

find it.

I couldn't wait until midnight when we would hear jingle bells on their roof

(how they did this with it covered with snow and ice to this day I'll never

know) but after that we would leave.

At the age of 12 she took me to Dr. Grant who gave me diet pills (amphetamines)

because nada discovered I had gained a whole five pounds and she wanted me to be

'underweight'. They made me extremely nervous, jumpy, unable to concentrate in

school, very depressed and moody. I cried a lot. She shoved them down my

throat once a day. The fact that girls of that age shouldn't be ON that crap

was besides the point. That doctor had the hots for my mother at the time and

would give her anything she wanted. Years later she later told me they had had

a brief affair. She was proud of it because HE was a DOCTOR which was more than

my father was.

Christmas Day was spent with nada taking pic after pic of me with my gifts from

Santa, but I wasn't allowed to play with any of them. I was to be a 'little

lady'. She would dress me up in my Christmas outfit to the nine's and I would

have to remain in it all day. She would trot me over to my aunts and Grandma

who lived on our street (my father's family owned that whole side of the dead

end street) and show me off but again I was monitored as to food, ridiculed by

nada and told before I went to be 'a little lady'. I wasn't to open my mouth.

Children were to be seen and not heard. I was not to play with my cousins (all

boys) as 'little ladies didn't do that'. I was to sit with the adults where she

could keep an eye on me at all times.

So those are my childhood memories of Christmas.

As a married adult, I would go to nada and stepfada's house on Christmas Eve

night for dinner dragging my then husband who was not interested in being with

them at all (in that respect who could blame him) where nada would portion out

food for everyone and although she would make my favorite dish most years, she

would make sure mine was the smallest one. They were homemade pasties. I would

be given the largest scoop of green beans to go with it. She would tell my

husband that she was 'doing him a favor by not allowing me to eat more' and that

he 'didn't want a fat wife now did he'. She would go on and on about how

abusive, mean, rotten and alcoholic my father was and 'to tell everyone there'.

My father was none of those things, but she had to have an excuse for running

around with my stepfada (her boss) so she told him my father was extremely

abusive of us all and an alcoholic at the bars every night and how he cheated on

her with 'young girls'. None of this was true as I said and the poor man worked

extremely long hours to give her more and more and more of the material things

she wanted to satisfy her, but nothing did. He was made hoist supervisor at the

iron ore mine where he worked all his life working himself up from a 'water boy

for the miners' at the age of 13 (no child labor laws then or if there were,

they were ignored obviously - not sure). He got his father's union card to work

there at the age of 16 and he continued working there almost his entire adult

life. Of course I wouldn't lie for nada which made her very angry. She would

seeth! But not wanting to appear 'unladylike', she wouldn't verbally abuse me

in front of my then husband. She would change the subject thank God. She would

dole out two cookies for me at dessert time and pass the canister of cookies to

my stepfada and my now ex. When she did make a cake (never pies), she would

give me the tiniest sliver.

As to us not seeing nada and stepfada as a couple very much when we did live

down there, I am blamed entirely now by nada for it on occasion and told 'you

never visited Eddie and I very much when you and DID live here'. When I

would say that's the past and she should forget about it. she says she never

will. She says she is 'hurt by it still' and when I say my ex didn't want to go

there or anywhere, she says " you should have put your foot down' and yet my

stepfada ruled the roost and I think he was BPD also but anwyay he was the BOSS.

Forget that he abused her also and they abused each other behind closed doors of

course. He also made me feel very unwelcome in their home because he wanted to

be the only person in her life and put a wedge between us whenever he could over

the years. He is dead now for three years so is no longer an issue. Of course

nada also blames me for allowing to move us far away from her. For that I

applaud him (lol).

Christmas Day we would go to my now ex's parents' home which I dreaded. His

mother was BPD (not diagnosed until the year before she died) so this went on

for 15 Christmases with her Witch and Queen behaviors. She would lord over

everyone forcing her husband and my now ex to wait on her hand and foot and of

course nothing suited. She wasn't like my nada. She didn't cook. Her elderly

husband (they had my ex late in life) wouldn't cook either as he didn't know

how for a 'group' and she was 'bed ridden' she said (no she wasn't but she had

to keep up her facade so she was waited on hand and foot by her husband and my

ex) so they wouldn't come up to our house where I would have cooked. Besides,

she could only eat 'baby food' and 'pureed adult food' as she claimed to have

TMJ but truthfully she never had that. She was anorexic and was diagnosed as

having that the last year of her life also by a psychiatrist. So we'd eat at

home or at a restaurant before we went to see them. Anyway no matter what we

gave her it would never suit. One year we bought her an 18 kt. gold dainty

necklace she could slip over her head with a matching bracelet. (She was

bizarre to say the least and loved wearing lots of jewelry with her pink

negligee she never took off or washed with her matching robe in the winter).

She would only dress to go to numerous doctors where she would get her

attention, not listen to what they told her and would only use them to get Zanax

and other addictive drugs which made her high which she loved since she was also

a dry drunk who when I first met her loved her warm beer (cold would make her

mouth hurt) and then gave up beer in favor of addictive mood elevators or pain

killers. Anyway when she had her son open her gift from us to her, she threw it

across the room and told us if we couldn't do better than that not to bother.

(She always claimed heavy necklaces made her neck and face hurt) so we thought

that necklace would be ideal. Another year she told my ex and I that all the

gifts under the tree that he husband would leave decorated (artificial one of

course) and pull out of the one closet each year were 'for my DAUGHTER AND HER

FAMILY - NOTHING for you OR your WIFE " despite the fact her daughter was for the

most part nc except once a year when they would travel up 3 hours to see them so

she could needle a great deal of money from them for a 'bedroom set for her

daughter' or a new car etc. - whatever they needed. My ex was over there every

day after work and wouldn't come home to me until 10 pm weekdays - every day and

over there all day Saturday AND Sunday doing all their electrical, etc even

though they had more than enough $ to hire someone. I wouldn't go with him

because if I did I would have to babysit his nada while his father and he went

out all day (his father was a very kind, overly sensitive man who did his

wife's bidding just as my ex - her son did). I would be abused by her verbally

and emotionally behind my ex's back so after a few attempts at being 'the good

wife' and helping her, I refused to go down there anymore except at Christmas.

Anyway she hated me for taking her slave away (though he was her slave most of

the time anyway - just not 24-7).

When they both died (his nada and her husband), we had moved several states

away (my ex's idea) to 'get away from them' as both had become SOOOOOOOO

demanding it was ridiculous and his father almost cost him his job by driving

down to his workplace daily one hour after my ex had left there (he was now

over there before work - at lunch time and after work as he always had as well

as all day Saturday and Sunday) but that wasn't enough to suit either of them

apparently. Anyway his father would scream " you've got to help me with her

- My god " in the lobby of his workplace to the receptionist at the window and

would disrupt the office. They told him to keep control of his father or he

wouldn't have a job. Instead of confronting his father, we moved away. I

thought I would have a life after they both died with my husband like most

married couple's do but he morphed into his mother in personality and became

abusive of me. I ended the marriage nine years ago and since then have been

alone each Christmas.

I cry to " Have Yourself a Very Merry Christmas' (especially the

version) which says " next year all our troubles will be out of sight' and 'until

then we'll just muddle through somehow'. So I play the " next year things will

be good for me' game with myself. I picture Mr. Right with me as well as having

my house that I want and all is right with my world. I absolutely KNOW that she

won't be around another Christmas - that I will have everything I want and need

and that 2010 will be THE year for me. It is what keeps me going. I also cry

to " Grown Up Christmas List " by Barbra Streisand and " There's Always Tomorrow " .

And there will be for all of us. May all our dreams for 2010 come true. We

deserve it.

[Guest guest]

Maybe if you try thinking about it in terms of: " Would *I*, Lynnette, ever do

*any* of those things my nada did to me, to my own child?

And the answer is: Of course not, those acts are abusive!! It does not matter

who did them, the acts created damage and pain and anguish and were even

life-threatening for a small helpless child.

If your best friend told you that her daughter had moved herself and her small

child into an unheated garage with her drug-addicted, drug-selling, ex-con

boyfriend, would you not be shocked and appalled and greatly worried for the

child's safety and well-being?

I think you would be, because a child is being exposed unnecessarily to great

danger by her own mother.

Sometimes looking at an act as it occurs to another person helps you see it in

its true light.

Cluster B pd people exhibit pretty much the opposite character and personality

traits, cognitive ability and emotional stability necessary to be a good-enough

parent; so many cases written about here at this Group make that crystal clear.

We might as well have been raised by alcoholic, feeble-minded heroin addicts;

that's about the level of responsible parenting a Cluster B is capable of.

-Annie

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mine are milder than you all's. Lynette, you were so unprotected it

> > > > makes my stomach wrench. Like me, you use laughter to lighten the

> > > > heaviness. I finally see someone who compensates even more than I do!

> > > >

> > > > My one memory is this one: One Christmas, when my bro was 1 or 2

> > > > years old, my parents had a big blow out fight. My dad retreated

> > > > into our family room with the door closed, refusing to participate in

> > > > the family event. We tried to play the piano and be cheerful, but we

> > > > kids weren't fooled. That Christmas that my best gift was one my mom

> > > > thought I needed. A violin case for the rattly violin that came with

> > > > her to the US from her childhood in war-torn Germany. (I peeked under

> > > > the wrap and so I guess I got what I deserved LOL) I loved music, but

> > > > the violin was never my instrument. Mom would best have encouraged me

> > > > with voice, but she did that only through church. (That mission--to

> > > > have me glorify God with my voice, toppled with a heavy thud, the

> > > > day she kicked me on the floor of the passenger seat all the way to

> > > > the choir practice... Perhaps she too could not live with the irony.)

> > > >

> > > > That is really my landmark Christmas. The ones I came home for (just

> > > > twice) as an adult were quite joyless and had no little spiritual

> > > > meaning either. I always liked seeing my bro, but I was I guess, a

> > > > big threat to nada's reign of terror, so there was big relief when I

> > > > went back to college.

> > > >

> > > > It does take some work to redeem Christmases memories like this! In

> > > > fact, before kids, my DH and I would find something really outside the

> > > > box to do at Christmastime. It helps that he was raised Baha'i. With

> > > > a child, I struggle each year. And vow to make it happier, or at

> > > > least more peaceful each year. I suspect this year will be no

> > > > different. But each year I learn something and usually find a new way

> > > > to set myself free and find peace with the ambivalent feelings.

> > > > Christmas is my son's favorite holiday so far. I do wish it were not

> > > > so commercially driven, but am accepting that there are things I can

> > > > do to make the holiday OURs.

> > > >

> > > > Me, I am happiest with Thanksgiving, because it is the perfect holiday

> > > > for friends.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe any holiday that you can bring friends into, has the potential

> > > > to transform FOO-ey memories.

> > > >

> > > > Best,

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Whoa.

I think I'm gonna to throw up now.

Lynnette

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mine are milder than you all's. Lynette, you were so unprotected it

> > > > > makes my stomach wrench. Like me, you use laughter to lighten the

> > > > > heaviness. I finally see someone who compensates even more than I do!

> > > > >

> > > > > My one memory is this one: One Christmas, when my bro was 1 or 2

> > > > > years old, my parents had a big blow out fight. My dad retreated

> > > > > into our family room with the door closed, refusing to participate in

> > > > > the family event. We tried to play the piano and be cheerful, but we

> > > > > kids weren't fooled. That Christmas that my best gift was one my mom

> > > > > thought I needed. A violin case for the rattly violin that came with

> > > > > her to the US from her childhood in war-torn Germany. (I peeked under

> > > > > the wrap and so I guess I got what I deserved LOL) I loved music, but

> > > > > the violin was never my instrument. Mom would best have encouraged me

> > > > > with voice, but she did that only through church. (That mission--to

> > > > > have me glorify God with my voice, toppled with a heavy thud, the

> > > > > day she kicked me on the floor of the passenger seat all the way to

> > > > > the choir practice... Perhaps she too could not live with the irony.)

> > > > >

> > > > > That is really my landmark Christmas. The ones I came home for (just

> > > > > twice) as an adult were quite joyless and had no little spiritual

> > > > > meaning either. I always liked seeing my bro, but I was I guess, a

> > > > > big threat to nada's reign of terror, so there was big relief when I

> > > > > went back to college.

> > > > >

> > > > > It does take some work to redeem Christmases memories like this! In

> > > > > fact, before kids, my DH and I would find something really outside the

> > > > > box to do at Christmastime. It helps that he was raised Baha'i. With

> > > > > a child, I struggle each year. And vow to make it happier, or at

> > > > > least more peaceful each year. I suspect this year will be no

> > > > > different. But each year I learn something and usually find a new way

> > > > > to set myself free and find peace with the ambivalent feelings.

> > > > > Christmas is my son's favorite holiday so far. I do wish it were not

> > > > > so commercially driven, but am accepting that there are things I can

> > > > > do to make the holiday OURs.

> > > > >

> > > > > Me, I am happiest with Thanksgiving, because it is the perfect holiday

> > > > > for friends.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe any holiday that you can bring friends into, has the potential

> > > > > to transform FOO-ey memories.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best,

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

I rarely asked any of my friends over to play. My nada would either be very

intrusive or she would complain, yell at me and embarrass me in front of my

friends for being too noisy or messy or " wild " . I never felt like where I lived

was " my " house, I guess. Most of the time I'd go over and play at my friend's

houses, too.

-Annie

>

> thanks , I always thought it wasn't fair that other kids were

> allowed to be kids, but we were expected to be miniature adults all the

> times...we never had friends over ( too much noise) we never played with

> others in our yard..for the same reason, we always went to someone else's

> house to play..

>

> Jackie

[Guest guest]

Yes, my nada too has a lot of control issues and has always been super-organized

and a clean freak. Messiness and noise just would trigger her into frenzied

rages of yelling and screaming as she'd clean the mess or make us clean it as

she watched and yelled at us.

It seems that personality-disordered people tend to be in the clean freak end of

the spectrum or at the filthy slob end. Its the extremism that is the common

factor.

There is apparently no normal, middle range for nada because that requires

flexibility and empathy. So nada winds up making her kids and husband miserable

by screaming at you for leaving a fingerprint on the refrigerator handle and has

to have all the canned goods alphabetically organized and cross-indexed by food

group OR nada makes her family miserable and physically ill by allowing them to

live in filth.

Either extreme is abusive, in my opinion.

-Annie

>

> I couldn't read in the car ( still cant) because I get car sick..long trips

> still make me sick, and it usually takes 2 days for me to start feeling well

> again, just in time to make the long drive back home LOL. We were not

> allowed to even bring a radio with an ear plug, because IF she wanted to ask

> a question, she couldnt get our attention! Nada controlled everything..my

> husband and I would sleep in the family room on a god awful sofa bed that

> was way too small and 30+ years old( we started bringing a blow up mattress,

> which totally insulted nada) then she bought another sofa bed, but got only

> a 3/4 sized mattress instead of a queen...and it was just too small for us

> to sleep in... she'd complain to everyone that she bought the new couch just

> for us, and we wouldn't even use it !! anyway, we'd close the curtains at

> night, which upset her ( who wants to sleep with street lights shining in

> your eyes) and when we opened them in the morning, apparently they weren't

> opened right because she always had to come and " fix " them...the room faced

> into their back yard...everything always had to be just so, or she'd be

> upset...everything had to match, everything had to be straight and crisp,

> and tidy...except the house...that was always a cluttered mess !! but the

> pictures on the wall had to always be straight..and even...

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> My nada wasn't quite that severely bad about noise, but I did used to know

> an npd person like that who claimed to have received a minor brain injury

> who was very, very controlling and rigid about " noise " (referring to music),

> about the temperature, and about most other things as well. It is really

> difficult and depressing to be around a person who is so *tyrannical* about

> her environment and about how other people behave. And you're right: a few

> hours seem like a few days to a small child forced to sit still and be

> quiet; long car trips are like torture under those conditions when you're

> too little to read, or if reading in a moving car makes you nauseated (like

> it did me.)

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

my nada is not organized nor very neat...their house is always very

messy...she's almost a hoarder..and keeps the dumbest junk " just in case "

which never comes..she could never find anything because it was always so

messy...when she made me clean, I just put everything into 2 paper grocery

sacks ( from each room) because the junk had no place of it's own to be

put...and yet, our bedrooms have to be totally clean and neat !! nothing

was ever allowed to be out...nada always had a double standard, one for her,

one for us..but, the linen closet had to be just so, and the towels folded

THIS way, so the bindings were all going down the same side, and the right

colored glasses in the cupboards had to be stacked together ( war would

break out if you stacked the pink cup with the blue cup !! and you'd be

dragged out of bed in the middle of the night to restack, refold or re

washed ( if anything dirty was found) everything to her satisfaction...

Jackie

Yes, my nada too has a lot of control issues and has always been

super-organized and a clean freak. Messiness and noise just would trigger

her into frenzied rages of yelling and screaming as she'd clean the mess or

make us clean it as she watched and yelled at us.

It seems that personality-disordered people tend to be in the clean freak

end of the spectrum or at the filthy slob end. Its the extremism that is

the common factor.

There is apparently no normal, middle range for nada because that requires

flexibility and empathy. So nada winds up making her kids and husband

miserable by screaming at you for leaving a fingerprint on the refrigerator

handle and has to have all the canned goods alphabetically organized and

cross-indexed by food group OR nada makes her family miserable and

physically ill by allowing them to live in filth.

Either extreme is abusive, in my opinion.

-Annie

[Guest guest]

The double-standard thing is interesting; my nada exhibited that behavior also

but in different contexts. But yours was definitely exhibiting the extremism

with the organized items in the cabinets and the precisely-folded towels and the

dragging children out of their sleep to re-do chores that were not done

" perfectly " to nada's standards! Sheesh!

I think its really important to educate the public and children throughout their

school years what is and is not in the range of " normal " behaviors. Children

have no way of knowing that what they are experiencing at home from their own

parents is abnormal and abusive, because to the child being emotionally,

physically and/or sexually abused IS their " normal. "

I wish that there was a class called " Emotional Hygiene " that explains to

children in age-appropriate ways what mentally healthy behavior looks like and

sounds like, and what abnormal, abusive, mentally ill behaviors look like and

sound like. I like the idea of actors doing video reenactments and playing a

scene both ways: this is the mentally healthy way to respond, this is the

mentally unhealthy way to respond.

Then children would perhaps begin to think things like, " Wow. My mother screams

at me that I am stupid and lazy even when I try to make my bed exactly the way

she likes it. Maybe I'm not stupid and lazy, maybe she has obsessive-compulsive

disorder! I think I'll talk to the school counselor about it. "

Children need advocates outside of their immediate family that they can talk to,

but it seems that in abusive, dysfunctional families its drilled into child

victims to " shut your mouth " and " We don't talk about family matters outside the

family, " or even worse, " You are crazy, that never happened, you are lying, and

if you ever say something like that again I'm going to kill you. "

-Annie

>

> my nada is not organized nor very neat...their house is always very

> messy...she's almost a hoarder..and keeps the dumbest junk " just in case "

> which never comes..she could never find anything because it was always so

> messy...when she made me clean, I just put everything into 2 paper grocery

> sacks ( from each room) because the junk had no place of it's own to be

> put...and yet, our bedrooms have to be totally clean and neat !! nothing

> was ever allowed to be out...nada always had a double standard, one for her,

> one for us..but, the linen closet had to be just so, and the towels folded

> THIS way, so the bindings were all going down the same side, and the right

> colored glasses in the cupboards had to be stacked together ( war would

> break out if you stacked the pink cup with the blue cup !! and you'd be

> dragged out of bed in the middle of the night to restack, refold or re

> washed ( if anything dirty was found) everything to her satisfaction...

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Yes, my nada too has a lot of control issues and has always been

> super-organized and a clean freak. Messiness and noise just would trigger

> her into frenzied rages of yelling and screaming as she'd clean the mess or

> make us clean it as she watched and yelled at us.

>

> It seems that personality-disordered people tend to be in the clean freak

> end of the spectrum or at the filthy slob end. Its the extremism that is

> the common factor.

>

> There is apparently no normal, middle range for nada because that requires

> flexibility and empathy. So nada winds up making her kids and husband

> miserable by screaming at you for leaving a fingerprint on the refrigerator

> handle and has to have all the canned goods alphabetically organized and

> cross-indexed by food group OR nada makes her family miserable and

> physically ill by allowing them to live in filth.

>

> Either extreme is abusive, in my opinion.

>

> -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Holy crud...I could have written that exact same thing! I used to try to stay

awake until I heard her go to bed so that I'd be awake if she came to wake me up

to " fix " things.

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Care to share Christmas memories of being

a BPD's child?

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Friday, December 18, 2009, 10:01 PM

> my nada is not organized nor very

> neat...their house is always very

> messy...she's almost a hoarder..and keeps the dumbest junk

> " just in case "

> which never comes..she could never find anything because it

> was always so

> messy...when she made me clean, I just put everything into

> 2 paper grocery

> sacks ( from each room) because  the junk had no place

> of it's own to be

> put...and yet, our bedrooms have to be totally clean and

> neat !!  nothing

> was ever allowed to be out...nada always had a double

> standard, one for her,

> one for us..but, the linen closet had to be just so, and

> the towels folded

> THIS way, so the bindings were all going down the same

> side, and the right

> colored glasses in the cupboards had to be stacked together

> ( war would

> break out if you stacked the pink cup with the blue cup !!

> and you'd be

> dragged out of bed in the middle of the night to restack,

> refold or re

> washed ( if anything dirty was found) everything to her

> satisfaction...

>

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Yes, my nada too has a lot of control issues and has always

> been

> super-organized and a clean freak.  Messiness and

> noise just would trigger

> her into frenzied rages of yelling and screaming as she'd

> clean the mess or

> make us clean it as she watched and yelled at us.

>

> It seems that personality-disordered people tend to be in

> the clean freak

> end of the spectrum or at the filthy slob end.  Its

> the extremism that is

> the common factor.

>

> There is apparently no normal, middle range for nada

> because that requires

> flexibility and empathy.  So nada winds up making her

> kids and husband

> miserable by screaming at you for leaving a fingerprint on

> the refrigerator

> handle and has to have all the canned goods alphabetically

> organized and

> cross-indexed by food group OR  nada makes her family

> miserable and

> physically ill by allowing them to live in filth.

>

> Either extreme is abusive, in my opinion.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

I totally agree with you, Annie. We're told from the youngest age that we

cant do it right, that we're stupid, lazy, worthless etc and we dont know

any better. Unfortunately once we do know better, we still hear nada in our

heads ( and usually in or lives as well) still telling us there terrible

things, and we really have no clue what's right and wrong. A class to teach

us as young kids would help a lot and maybe save a lot of us from life long

problems since we'd learn earlier that it's nada ( or fada) and not us with

the problem..we could get help so much faster!

Jackie

The double-standard thing is interesting; my nada exhibited that behavior

also but in different contexts. But yours was definitely exhibiting the

extremism with the organized items in the cabinets and the precisely-folded

towels and the dragging children out of their sleep to re-do chores that

were not done " perfectly " to nada's standards! Sheesh!

I think its really important to educate the public and children throughout

their school years what is and is not in the range of " normal " behaviors.

Children have no way of knowing that what they are experiencing at home from

their own parents is abnormal and abusive, because to the child being

emotionally, physically and/or sexually abused IS their " normal. "

I wish that there was a class called " Emotional Hygiene " that explains to

children in age-appropriate ways what mentally healthy behavior looks like

and sounds like, and what abnormal, abusive, mentally ill behaviors look

like and sound like. I like the idea of actors doing video reenactments and

playing a scene both ways: this is the mentally healthy way to respond, this

is the mentally unhealthy way to respond.

Then children would perhaps begin to think things like, " Wow. My mother

screams at me that I am stupid and lazy even when I try to make my bed

exactly the way she likes it. Maybe I'm not stupid and lazy, maybe she has

obsessive-compulsive disorder! I think I'll talk to the school counselor

about it. "

Children need advocates outside of their immediate family that they can talk

to, but it seems that in abusive, dysfunctional families its drilled into

child victims to " shut your mouth " and " We don't talk about family matters

outside the family, " or even worse, " You are crazy, that never happened, you

are lying, and if you ever say something like that again I'm going to kill

you. "

-Annie

[Guest guest]

so why was it OK for nada to have a messy house but my room had to be clean

and neat with nothing out ?? and why when one of the few times nada did

dishes, if i found a dirty one, she'd say it's " clean dirt " ? yet I would

have to do every dish in the kitchen over again ??

Jackie

Holy crud...I could have written that exact same thing! I used to try to

stay awake until I heard her go to bed so that I'd be awake if she came to

wake me up to " fix " things.

[Guest guest]

It *wasn't* okay...it was only so in *her* mind. My nada was FULL of double

standards like that. She could lie all she wanted...twist truth, manipulate

facts, etc...and still be " the most honest person you can find " . If I, however,

left out the fact that this friend wore pink socks and that one wore a blue

sweater to the basketball game, well, that was a " lie of omission " and further

proof that I was rotten.

I spent YEARS being baffled as to how the rest of us were " slobs " when

everything cluttering the house was HERS...stacks of paperwork and files and

things we weren't supposed to touch even when she raged and melted down at how

irresponsible the rest of the family was about picking up after ourselves. I

was *thrilled* to visit her when she was finally living on her own, without my

father or my brother or myself, to find that her house was STILL cluttered up

and she had nobody to blame but herself. I was positively gleeful...it was

proof, for me, that I was right all those years to keep thinking that the mess

was hers!

It's not okay that they do this...but somehow their crazy warped perceptions

justify it in their own minds. As my own therapist often reminds me... " You

can't force logical explanations on behaviors that lack logic to begin with. "

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: Re: Care to share Christmas memories of being

a BPD's child?

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Sunday, December 20, 2009, 4:41 PM

> so why was it OK for nada to have a

> messy house but my room had to be clean

> and neat with nothing out ?? and why when one of the

> few times nada did

> dishes, if i found a dirty one, she'd say it's " clean dirt "

> ? yet I would

> have to do every dish in the kitchen over again ??

>

> Jackie

>

>

>

> Holy crud...I could have written that exact same

> thing! I used to try to

> stay awake until I heard her go to bed so that I'd be awake

> if she came to

> wake me up to " fix " things.

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @....

> SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE

> GROUP.

>

> To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call

> 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to

> “Understanding the Borderline Mother†(Lawson) and

> “Surviving the Borderline Parent,†(Roth) which you can

> find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community!

>

> From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community

> and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.

[Guest guest]

thanks, yes, we had the same double standard...nada lied and twisted things

around, but if we did a simple omission ( which I'm not convinced is lying

anyway) we were punished if she found out...but SHE could omit all the time,

and just say it was none of our business.. Your therapist is right !

Jackie

It *wasn't* okay...it was only so in *her* mind. My nada was FULL of double

standards like that. She could lie all she wanted...twist truth, manipulate

facts, etc...and still be " the most honest person you can find " . If I,

however, left out the fact that this friend wore pink socks and that one

wore a blue sweater to the basketball game, well, that was a " lie of

omission " and further proof that I was rotten.

I spent YEARS being baffled as to how the rest of us were " slobs " when

everything cluttering the house was HERS...stacks of paperwork and files and

things we weren't supposed to touch even when she raged and melted down at

how irresponsible the rest of the family was about picking up after

ourselves. I was *thrilled* to visit her when she was finally living on her

own, without my father or my brother or myself, to find that her house was

STILL cluttered up and she had nobody to blame but herself. I was

positively gleeful...it was proof, for me, that I was right all those years

to keep thinking that the mess was hers!

It's not okay that they do this...but somehow their crazy warped perceptions

justify it in their own minds. As my own therapist often reminds me... " You

can't force logical explanations on behaviors that lack logic to begin

with. "

Ninera