Guest guest Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 You are very welcome. This is the worst time of year for me too. I hope that it passes quickly and you are able to get some much deserved peace. No one deserves to be treated like he is treating you. You are worth more than that, whether he acknowledges it or not. > > > Thank you . I am feeling really FOGged right now. Having you guys > and this board is such a blessing. I cannot begin to express how helpful it > is to me. > > Deanna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey everybody! I hope everyone has made it through the holidays with a > > > minimal amount of shrapnel. > > > > > > A few months ago, my brother sent me a viscious, verbally abusive > e-mail, > > > which I posted here. My therapist recommended just not responding. Of > > > course, I belive my brother is now telling everyone how I'm not talking > to > > > anyone in the family except his 17 year old daughter. Of course, she > feels > > > put in the middle now. > > > > > > I have a certain amount of fear, which comes up during EMDR, that > contact > > > with him might become physically violent. I don't know if that is > founded or > > > not. Recently, his daughter told him she hated him, and he grabbed her > by > > > the throat and threw her aginst the wall, holding her there. This makes > me > > > fearful that he is physically dangerous (duh!). She will be out of > their > > > house forever in the fall, when she goes to school (thank goodness). > > > > > > Anyway, I have considered sending him an email response, saying > something > > > like " I am no longer willing to put up with shaming, yelling, > name-calling, > > > or any sort of verbal assaults. That is why I did not respond to your > email. > > > If you speak to me that way again, I will hang up, walk out, or delete > and > > > block your email. " > > > > > > The thing is, I know my brother is way to emotionally retarded to treat > me > > > in a kind way. He abuses alcohol, drugs, gambling and can be violent, > as I > > > have already stated here before. > > > > > > Have any of you ever tried sending an email like that? I am sure it > would > > > only further enrage him and he would respond with more abuse. But then > i > > > could at least say I tried? > > > > > > Has that worked for anyone? > > > > > > Honestly, I think my brother is a shit-head, and I really don't care to > > > have contact with him, but I used to have a very nice relationship with > my > > > SIL and their children. > > > > > > It seems like refusing to kow-tow to my nada, and refusing to be > verbally > > > abused by my brother, means I can't have any relationshit at all. The > > > worrying and feeling like I am " bad " is keeping me up at night. I'm > sure you > > > all can relate. > > > > > > Any words/advice would be appreciated. > > > > > > Deanna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 The one thing I have found to be effective with truly dangerous people is boredom. Stand up for yourself, and you're a target. Act submissive, and you're a target. Be polite but slightly distracted, like you just have some place urgent (but not very exciting) to get to and often they forget all about you. I don't think it's really what you do, but how you act and what you feel when you're doing it. Think of method acting here. How would a person who is not particularly exciting but just has other things to do act? I'm imagining a mid-level executive with no life, a good bank account, excsema and not much interest or insight into emotions or emotional people. How would that person act and how would they feel? I think my principal is npd and she scares the pants off me. But whenever I see her, I am cheerful, polite, and on my way somewhere else. And I also try to get all thoughts out of my head or at least very, very distant from me so that they can't show any sign of what I'm really thinking or feeling. Because thoughts and feelings could be interesting. And the last time I was interesting she took the phone out of my room. It was a royal pain in the neck for 3 months. I think the email response might be either very bland responses that completely miss the point (Oh, yes, and my dog is doing just fine. Thanks for asking) or no response at all (because Ms. Boring needs to pick the lint out of her carpet just now and just does not have time to respond). If you're scared of your brother, it's because he's dangerous. You have a good head on your shoulders and lots of experience of dangerous people or at least one dangerous person in particular. You know when someone is dangerous. He nearly choked his own child, so he could be dangerous in the violent way. Or he could be dangerous in the steal your identity and max out a slew of credit cards kind of way. I think there's not much way to predict without getting burned. But it will help to keep your distance. You probably can't do much if he really wants to hurt you, but you can minimize the probability that you're going to end up as the one he feels like hurting. And I think sometimes it's all about probability. Take care, Ashana The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 They're right, Deanna. It's abuse. Doesn't matter the length of the hold. You don't do that to kids. I think you're only unclear on that because it's your FOO. If a client said a partner did that to their child, you'd be up in arms. Abuse is supposed to be reported within 24 hours, at least in California (where I live). I don't think 8 months ago makes it irrelevant, though, because if a parent does this once, he'll do this kind of thing again. But it's something to know for next time. Where I live, when you aren't sure whether to report or not, you can call social services and there's a choice of whether to file a report or whether to consult. If you consult, the social worker listens to what you have to say, asks some questions, and then makes the decision about whether it's reportable. In every case when I have done this, the social worker told me it was reportable and we filed a report. I don't think it ever hurts to do this. Best, Ashana The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Doug~ I appreciate your strong words. If we grow up with maltreatment we never know if we should accept it from another person or not; sometimes we don't even know what it looks like , by which I mean, we don't even know if something is bad treatment or just one's self taking it 'wrong'. And also, good treatment can feel bad, or weird, or off. I think that is this condition (BPD) within a family is more recognized, diagnosed, and properly treated (whatever that is) and the treatment includes family members, then perhaps a whole new generation can be helped. When I was young I craved having someone lovingly take care of me physically and emotionally; I could never accept any kind of that treatment from my mother because even if she was earnest, it was too syrupy or too invasive, something ....and I am very sensitive to that. Yet I would get into abusive relationships with boyfriends. Maybe the abuse seemed more normal? When I was 12 we moved to a new neighborhood, away from a bad town where I was getting bullied and harassed every day as well as molested by teen boys. We had this new neighbor; her kids were a step younger than us kids. I would go over there and hang out; she was like my pseudo mom. It was a good feeling. I guess that is a good example of how a caring adult can help a child without maybe knowing it (or perhaps she did know) ~patricia Re: Abusive E-mails Deanna Interesting, your shrapnel analogy. I was just re reading Band of Brothers by Ambrose, about E company, 506th PIR during WWII. A guy in that company from my home town lived with a piece of shrapnel in his neck for 30 years, before it finally got so bothersome he had it removed. Ironic, no? If I were personally aware that someone had " recently " choked and shoved his 17 yo daughter by the throat up against the wall, I would make a Child Protective Services report. Even if she does get out in May or June after graduation, as we here ALL know, she is a child of a KO and she is living in hell right now. I wish, Oh, how I wish, someone, anyone, had intervened when I was living with a crazy woman. I would NEVER again, EVER EVER EVER have a relationship with a verbally, emotionally, or physically abusive person. Brother or no brother, you dont owe him putting up with that. No one does. Not his daugher either, but there is no advocate for her, unless someone intervenes. The ONLY way to win the game with these Poisenous people is NOT to play. If you had a friend who smacked you hard right in the mouth every time you saw her, would you be a bad person to refuse to take it anymore? Of course not, Deanna. That guilt is FOG. You have every right to say HELL NO. You don t deserve such treatment. Nor does the daughter. Even a few months respite from what she is living thru would be a gift. Think about it. She may not be willing or able to reach out herself, but if she is asked point blank by a CPS worker about the physical abuse, she may tell what is going on. And I lay you long odds if you know about that one, there are many more such incidents. If it were me, I d make the call. But guilt, no. Nothing requires you to take that crap. Doug > > Hey everybody! I hope everyone has made it through the holidays with a minimal amount of shrapnel. > > A few months ago, my brother sent me a viscious, verbally abusive e-mail, which I posted here. My therapist recommended just not responding. Of course, I belive my brother is now telling everyone how I'm not talking to anyone in the family except his 17 year old daughter. Of course, she feels put in the middle now. > > I have a certain amount of fear, which comes up during EMDR, that contact with him might become physically violent. I don't know if that is founded or not. Recently, his daughter told him she hated him, and he grabbed her by the throat and threw her aginst the wall, holding her there. This makes me fearful that he is physically dangerous (duh!). She will be out of their house forever in the fall, when she goes to school (thank goodness). > > Anyway, I have considered sending him an email response, saying something like " I am no longer willing to put up with shaming, yelling, name-calling, or any sort of verbal assaults. That is why I did not respond to your email. If you speak to me that way again, I will hang up, walk out, or delete and block your email. " > > The thing is, I know my brother is way to emotionally retarded to treat me in a kind way. He abuses alcohol, drugs, gambling and can be violent, as I have already stated here before. > > Have any of you ever tried sending an email like that? I am sure it would only further enrage him and he would respond with more abuse. But then i could at least say I tried? > > Has that worked for anyone? > > Honestly, I think my brother is a shit-head, and I really don't care to have contact with him, but I used to have a very nice relationship with my SIL and their children. > > It seems like refusing to kow-tow to my nada, and refusing to be verbally abused by my brother, means I can't have any relationshit at all. The worrying and feeling like I am " bad " is keeping me up at night. I'm sure you all can relate. > > Any words/advice would be appreciated. > > Deanna > ------------------------------------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I personally like to see the whole message. I get these posts on my e-mail. I dont have to read the whole thing, but if I need to see what someone is responding to, I can. Concerning Deanna's niece, it was obviously abusive of her brother to be physically violent with his daughter, but if I shared that about my brother, I would find it abusive to have someone call him a piece of shit. We have relatives here that are mentally ill. It is not okay for them to abuse. We want to learn how to set limits, boundries, protect ourselves and our loved ones. But we often love our family members and to have trusted people call them names hurts. ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Sun, December 27, 2009 10:52:31 PM Subject: Re: Abusive E-mails  Reminder everybody, we talked a while back about remembering to delete out all but the signifigant part of the message so it doesnt get so very long. I ve not been doing, it, but remembered with this one. I am astounded at any therapist that would give such advice. If your 17 yo niece had told one of them what she told you and they did not report it, they would lose thier license. I stand by my original advice to you. You obviously care for this niece. She is living with a piece of shit ( as you describe your brother) who is just an abusive mean SOB. I would do what I could to toss her a lifeline. But it is not my choice to make , it is yours, and you know your own life. Perhaps once she graduates and moves out, she may choose to turn in your direction to escape the crazy FOO that SHE has to deal with. But that issue aside, you still should not take any more abusive emails, or calls, or letters, from brother, nada, or any of your FOO. You dont owe any of them that. > > > > Hi Doug, I have told both of my therapists about this incident. Neither of them suggested that I could/should report it. > > > > Deanna > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I appreciate you message Doug. I understand your anger and in my FOO household that kind of anger was expressed freely and with abandon, so I sometimes express it too out of habit. What I would like to see happen is people non only not say those things but not think them either. It is not easy, maybe extremely difficult for people, understandably. These people who commit horrible deeds, were either mistreated horribly themselves or are disabled mentally, or more likely both. It is a process here, that we are going through, trying to make sense of this madness. If we don't try very hard to see these people with compassion, how can we forgive ourselves for repeating some of the things they taught us with such unrelenting repetition. My daughter has a learning disablity, mild, so that you can not tell by meeting her and interacting with her superficially. She does things sometimes that are so incomprehensible because her brain interprets information based on less input that most of us get. People close to her can misinterpret her intentions (can and do) and react harshly, hurting her terribly because she can not understand that people have more sensory input than she does. This builds anger and emotional consequenses that I am trying desperately to minimize. She now lashes out in anger and I can see how her perception of herself at the tender age of 13 is the cause of her anger. It is horrible. She is not horrible. I can imagine if I did not know of her disorder, how hard it would be to be patient with her. That is the circumstance of all these BPD people. People enable them because of lack of understanding, love, laziness, any number of reasons and they are allowed to get away with this behavior. It is so complicated. I know what my father went through. I know the abuse he suffered. It is like some of the worst things I have read here. I am not saying you are awful or even mildly bad for saying something harsh.. I am just trying to give another perspective in the hopes of helping us (including me) heal. Deanna's brother is my brother, my father, my daughter, even you and me (though I have never choked my daughter, I pulled her hair really hard and with intention once... it worked, but I want to strive to achieve my goals with her in a profoundly different way. I'm sure Deanna's brother does not have the insight we do. Yet. There is ALWAYS hope, if not in this generation, the next... Leanne > > Subject: Re: Abusive E-mails > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 8:44 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > >   > > >    >     >     >     > > I misquoted. Deanna did not call her brother a piece of > shit, but a shit > > head. Slighltly different phrase, but the same essential > meaning. If > > you will read carefully what I said, I m quoting her own > words about her > > brother, not making this my own assessment of him. > > > > Our family members may indeed be mentally unbalanced, but > that does not > > excuse thier behaviors, or make them any less monsters in > what they do > > to us , or others. > > > > I have had folks tell me what a horrid person my nada was > for the crappy > > things she did to me, and I do not take offense at it. We > may indeed > > still love our FOO s, but I don t think we owe it to them > to say, well, > > if it were anyone else, I would say what a ( insert > explitive), but > > since I love him I won t say that. > > > > I you were offended, my apologies, but if you ll read the > entire chain > > you will see that I am quoting and reflecting back her own > words and > > descriptions of her brother and the situation. > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Doug, I have told both of my therapists > about this incident. > > > Neither of them suggested that I could/should report > it. > > > > > > > > > > Deanna > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 Not too long ago, there was a thread on this list that got very heated and there were some very hurt feelings afterward. I am concerned that we are headed in that direction again, although so far nearly everyone has been quite civil and even careful with one another in what they say. I am wondering if it is time to drop this thread. Deanna, I am sure, will do the right thing for her situation. Those of us who were concerned that her niece was being abused and that the abuse should be supported have spoken up and it is now in her very capable hands to decide what to do. Being able to be open and to speak honestly on this list is very important, since many of us did not grow up with that, but I also think child abuse is a trigger for many of us and things can get very heated very quickly when it's the center of the conversation--especially when it is not our own experiences we are speaking of and therefore it is not as clear why we are speaking from the perspective that we are. Best, Ashana The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I totally agree with you Annie. I know the intense fear I had of nada.. she tried to kill me twice...and that made me not trust her as well...not very good parent child relationships !! Jackie I guess I'll have to cheerfully disagree with showing compassion to adult bullies who assault their own children with the intent to harm them. Physically restraining a child who is out of control and may harm herself or others is different (whether she is brain-damaged or not) because its done out of compassion, done in such a way that does not hurt the child (like breaking her trachea with a choke hold) and is done with the intent of teaching the child which behaviors are and are not acceptable. But an adult man who slams a young girl into the wall and chokes her to punish, terrify and control her is a sadistic bully and needs to be called on it and made to pay the consequences of committing a criminal act. From what Deanna describes, I'm getting the impression that her brother has all the women in his family terrified of him because he has threatened to hurt them or actually has hurt them before. That's wrong, and I'm for calling his behavior what it is: highly abusive, and criminally prosecutable as assault and battery when he lays hands on another person without their permission. " Shithead " is too good for a bully, IMHO. -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 I watched New Moon with my daughter and when the character turned into the wolf, I remember being terrified and thinking that it was just like the transformation of my dad. He was absolutely terrifying, and he did beat me in a rage twice, once in front of many people who were too terrified to intervene (I fought him back and screamed obscenities at him which when it got back to my sister, she held it in her pocket of tricks and pulled it out for a big laugh at family parties). But he was also kind at times. Mostly to strangers. And children at times. I remember running for the bus in middle school, outside our home, and tripping and falling flat on my face. I heard the kids on the bus laughing and I turned around and ran into the house crying. My dad had to go to work and instead of hollering at me and calling me names like he might have done, he gave me sympathy and happily drove me to school. I remember that with such gratitude. I thought he would kill me, and surprise! Recently, when I came here I stayed with my friend who had a dog who had been beaten as a puppy. My friend's daughter had a boyfriend who looked like the person who beat him. Whenever this boyfriend came over the dog went absolutely beserk. He growled, snarled, lunged and also screeched a high pitch screech like you had just stepped on his tail. It was one of the most pitiful things I had ever witnessed. Maybe because it reminded me of my dad. I have not been in your shoes. I respect your experiences and the way you deal with them. I don't disagree with you. I just have a different perspective. Feeling compassion is not the same as condoning horrible behavior. Not at all.I am involved in domestic violence support. The stories there are intense. I deeply respect all of our journeys including our parents'. Leanne > > Subject: Re: Re: Abusive E-mails > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 1:11 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > > > > > I totally agree with you Annie. I know the > intense fear I had of nada.. she > > tried to kill me twice...and that made me not trust her as > well...not very > > good parent child relationships !! > > > > Jackie > > > > I guess I'll have to cheerfully disagree with showing > compassion to adult > > bullies who assault their own children with the intent to > harm them. > > > > Physically restraining a child who is out of control and > may harm herself or > > others is different (whether she is brain-damaged or not) > because its done > > out of compassion, done in such a way that does not hurt > the child (like > > breaking her trachea with a choke hold) and is done with > the intent of > > teaching the child which behaviors are and are not > acceptable. > > > > But an adult man who slams a young girl into the wall and > chokes her to > > punish, terrify and control her is a sadistic bully and > needs to be called > > on it and made to pay the consequences of committing a > criminal act. From > > what Deanna describes, I'm getting the impression that > her brother has all > > the women in his family terrified of him because he has > threatened to hurt > > them or actually has hurt them before. > > > > That's wrong, and I'm for calling his behavior what > it is: highly abusive, > > and criminally prosecutable as assault and battery when he > lays hands on > > another person without their permission. > > > > " Shithead " is too good for a bully, IMHO. > > > > -Annie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 your dad seemed to be compassionate at times towards you..he wasn't mean all the time...that may be the big difference in our behaviors toward our BPD parent. nada was never nice to me..if she wasn't laughing, yelling, raging, beating, she was neglecting/ignoring me...I remember when I was in the first grade. I had to go upstairs, in the dark to brush my teeth, wash my hands and face and put myself to bed. All the times nada threatened that some night she was going to run away from home and never come back...so just before I got into bed, I'd stand at the head of the stairs and yell " good night " absolute silence...I said this over and over, hoping for some response..I got a response from nada...she'd yell at me to go to bed or she'd come up there and beat me... Jackie I watched New Moon with my daughter and when the character turned into the wolf, I remember being terrified and thinking that it was just like the transformation of my dad. He was absolutely terrifying, and he did beat me in a rage twice, once in front of many people who were too terrified to intervene (I fought him back and screamed obscenities at him which when it got back to my sister, she held it in her pocket of tricks and pulled it out for a big laugh at family parties). But he was also kind at times. Mostly to strangers. And children at times. I remember running for the bus in middle school, outside our home, and tripping and falling flat on my face. I heard the kids on the bus laughing and I turned around and ran into the house crying. My dad had to go to work and instead of hollering at me and calling me names like he might have done, he gave me sympathy and happily drove me to school. I remember that with such gratitude. I thought he would kill me, and surprise! Recently, when I came here I stayed with my friend who had a dog who had been beaten as a puppy. My friend's daughter had a boyfriend who looked like the person who beat him. Whenever this boyfriend came over the dog went absolutely beserk. He growled, snarled, lunged and also screeched a high pitch screech like you had just stepped on his tail. It was one of the most pitiful things I had ever witnessed. Maybe because it reminded me of my dad. I have not been in your shoes. I respect your experiences and the way you deal with them. I don't disagree with you. I just have a different perspective. Feeling compassion is not the same as condoning horrible behavior. Not at all.I am involved in domestic violence support. The stories there are intense. I deeply respect all of our journeys including our parents'. Leanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 thanks Annie, I think she did hate being a mother...she likes the idea of being a mother, but not all the work and no glory of being a mother...she always wanted the full spotlight, never to share or give up to a child. I think the only thing that save me was going to my aunt and uncles for 8 summers in a row from aged 10 -18...they really loved me, and they were more normal ( my fathers brother and his wife) they couldn't have kids. It was aunt who told me about the monthly curse when it happened and I was terrified, thinking I was going to die..she taught me to shave, and use deodorant..she taught me many social skills as well...which I remember fights on the phone between her and nada, who didn't think my aunt should have taught me anything...I really do think this was the only thing that really saved me..I am the least " damaged " in our family...and the only one who was sent away ... Jackie (((((((Jackie))))))) Seems to me that those behaviors come from someone who deeply resented being a mother; just hated it. So she either tormented her poor, helpless child or ignored you, as though being born was your fault. She was so cold and rejecting toward you as well as actively physically and emotionally abusive. That's so heart-breaking; I wish you could have been rescued, or given up for adoption at birth to lonely parents with empty arms aching to cuddle and love a child. -Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 Hi Doug, Thanks for your post, I keep coming here to sign off for a while because I won't be near a computer, but it is so hard to say goodbye! Even for a short time (I hope). I wanted to tell you that in responding the way I did about compassion towards the brother, the trigger for me was wanting to protect the sister mostly. There are other ways to describe the brother that can identify his behavior as very dangerous, horrible etc vs his identity as being dangerous, horrible, etc.I don't disagree with your urge to report him. I agree with your passion on that. But, that being said, there are consequences to reporting (guilt, fear, confusion) that are the reporters alone. Only they can decide. Also, only they know exactly what they heard and how to interpret what they heard from the victim. It is more complicated than it seems, I believe. I have learned a lot from domestic violence counseling, hearing all the reasons that family members don't report, or leave. The counselors have to be very careful. She did not mention in her first post that it was 8 months ago for example. Perhaps where she is, the resources don't allow agencies to respond to something that happened 8 months ago (even though it is likely that there is something bad happening each and every day). Part of strengthening the victims, is helping them come to terms with things at their own pace(barring immediate danger of course and even then it is hard to ) and strengthening their belief in their own judgement. If someone trying to help gives an initial reaction that is too intense, the victim may run away in fear. Perhaps I can not yet articulate what I mean very well. Thanks for your honesty and patience in reading my post. Leanne > > Subject: Re: Abusive E-mails > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 7:48 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey folks, > > > > I m not mad at anybody, but I will maintain my resolve to > speak the > > truth, and call it for what it is. The violent abuser may > have had a > > horrible childhood, but if there is to be hope for the next > generation, > > we have to break that cycle by stoppping his abuse of that > next > > generation. > > > > I have a young relative with Asperger s syndrome. It is an > autism > > spectrum disorder. He has trouble with his emotional > reactions, and > > makes inappropriate choices. The world wont change to > accomodate him, so > > his mom does the hard wrenching work of constantly putting > him on track, > > and reminding him that there are consequences, and helping > him to think > > about making good choices. The kids at his school will not > be the ones > > to cut him some slack, they will be cruel. So she does all > she can to > > help him overcome his disability. It will pay off > enormously when he is > > older. > > > > This abusive brother discussed here may have had a horrible > childhood, > > and a BPD parent. He should have gotten help when it might > have > > mattered. He didnt. His sister had the same parents, and > she is not > > beating on kids, now is she? He is an adult now, and > responsible for his > > actions. His daughter may have some chance to break out of > the cycle > > that brings us all here, and damaged adults, who were child > KO s. But > > for all the horrible childhood I had, I am responsible for > my actions > > and my mistakes. I have to learn from them and grow, or be > trapped and > > deal with the consequences of them all my life. I get to > make a choice. > > So does he. I m sorry for whatever hell made him a man who > will grab > > his 17 year old daugher by her throat and shove her against > the wall. > > But I do not, and will not excuse his actions. Years from > now, his > > daughter s therapist may help her come to grips with it by > looking at > > his life, but the very real situation right now is he is a > violent, > > controlling, abusive man. > > > > His choices. His consequences. He could get help. He > could walk away > > from situations that make him angry. He choked slammed his > daughter > > instead. He verbally abuses and assualts his sister > instead. Compassion > > for a person ' s pain does not translate into > overlooking and accepting > > their bad choices. That is not compassion, that is > enabling. > > > > Every one of us here, if we are truly KOs , lived with > various forms of > > abuse. We can recognize it. We can have compassion for > people who may > > have suffered it, and are now perpetuating the cycle of > abuse to the > > next generation. We ought never to tolerate it, or > minimize it, or > > accept it. > > > > I have compassion for that terrified 17 year old wondering > what is going > > to set off her father and get her slapped, or punched, or > choked again. > > I dont know that he suffered hell to get where he is, but > if so , I have > > compassion for his pain. That doesnt give him license to > push his pain > > on helpless people like a bully. That is what our BP > families do. > > > > I WILL NEVER ACCEPT THAT THAT IS OK! Just as we set > bounderies for > > ourselves, that say, if you do this action, then this will > be the > > result, so there must be bounderies that say if you choke > your daughter, > > then this will happen. She, and we, may all feel > compassion for his > > pain and anger if the results occur, but if we let > ourselves shield > > abusive behaviours, we enable them. > > > > Please, never ever forget, that if someone had intervened > on your behalf > > when you were a child living with a BP parent, many of the > pains and > > dysfunctions you now carry may not be there, or at least > may be much > > less of a problem. > > > > I think that a part of our healing is reaching the point of > saying 1st, > > I will no longer accept what a BP considers normal > behavior. But 2nd, > > is , I think, being an advocate for the helpless ones who > are now like > > we were, and saying neither will I accept that behavior > toward another > > helpless person. > > > > Please believe that I understand very fully the difference > in cruel kids > > at school teasing my grandson as he has an inappropriate > emotional > > response, and thinking or saying something derogatory about > a man who > > choked his teenaged daughter. My compassion for my > grandson includes > > the hard work of helping him make appropriate choices. My > compassion for > > the other fellow is overridden by compassion for his > victim. Once she > > is protected, we can think about helping him. But > regardless what he may > > have lived as a child, HE is NOT the one getting choked and > shoved > > around, she is. > > > > I may feel great compassion for the alcoholic I see passed > out naked on > > his kitchen floor, or in the street, but that does not > translate to > > enabling his behaviors. I ll stay up all night and hold his > hand while > > he sweats out withdrawel, but if he breaks into my business > and steals > > my office equipment to pawn and continue a drunk, I ll > press charges. > > > > All those things are real, by the way, I saw the guy, > charged him when > > he stold from me, and sweated out withdrawel with him. I > would not be > > doing him a favor by overlooking another drunken rampage, > nor would I do > > so. > > > > We must be careful that compassion is not mistaken for > accepting. > > > > We all suffer what we went thru. Compassion should surely > be a part of > > our healing, yet so must accountablility, for ourselves, > and for others. > > > > Keep healing > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Doug, I have told both of my > therapists > > > > about this incident. > > > > > > > > > Neither of them suggested that I > could/should report > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deanna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > >Â Â Â > > > > > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > >Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 Leanne~your post reminded me of an experience I had about 20 years ago. I was a 'teacher' for kids with problems that couldn't go to regular high school. One of my students I had spent a long long time connecting with and gaining her trust. One day she was pretty down and I asked her what happened. She, after awhile, told me that her parents grabbed her off the street and took a blood sample (mom was a phlebotomist) to test her for drugs. I thought that was abuse. But she begged me not to report it. I asked her why and she said she did not want to go in a foster home; she had younger siblings she wanted to look after and she didn't want to live with strangers (and possible abuse there). I ended up not telling. A couple years later I was called to testify about this in a court case; she had gotten the nerve to accuse her father of rape and I was a witness for her. Now I have no opinion around reporting abuse; it is mandated of course. But I was in this strange position (not a professional teacher, and just giving comfort/counsel to a teen girl, I myself was 25 at the time); the lawyer asked me why I did not report the incident and I said it was because she begged me not to and gave the reasons. I don't know if I was right or wrong. Who can say how things would have worked out. I'm glad though she got a conviction on her dad though; they sent him to state prison. ~patricia Re: Abusive E-mails > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 7:48 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey folks, > > > > I m not mad at anybody, but I will maintain my resolve to > speak the > > truth, and call it for what it is. The violent abuser may > have had a > > horrible childhood, but if there is to be hope for the next > generation, > > we have to break that cycle by stoppping his abuse of that > next > > generation. > > > > I have a young relative with Asperger s syndrome. It is an > autism > > spectrum disorder. He has trouble with his emotional > reactions, and > > makes inappropriate choices. The world wont change to > accomodate him, so > > his mom does the hard wrenching work of constantly putting > him on track, > > and reminding him that there are consequences, and helping > him to think > > about making good choices. The kids at his school will not > be the ones > > to cut him some slack, they will be cruel. So she does all > she can to > > help him overcome his disability. It will pay off > enormously when he is > > older. > > > > This abusive brother discussed here may have had a horrible > childhood, > > and a BPD parent. He should have gotten help when it might > have > > mattered. He didnt. His sister had the same parents, and > she is not > > beating on kids, now is she? He is an adult now, and > responsible for his > > actions. His daughter may have some chance to break out of > the cycle > > that brings us all here, and damaged adults, who were child > KO s. But > > for all the horrible childhood I had, I am responsible for > my actions > > and my mistakes. I have to learn from them and grow, or be > trapped and > > deal with the consequences of them all my life. I get to > make a choice. > > So does he. I m sorry for whatever hell made him a man who > will grab > > his 17 year old daugher by her throat and shove her against > the wall. > > But I do not, and will not excuse his actions. Years from > now, his > > daughter s therapist may help her come to grips with it by > looking at > > his life, but the very real situation right now is he is a > violent, > > controlling, abusive man. > > > > His choices. His consequences. He could get help. He > could walk away > > from situations that make him angry. He choked slammed his > daughter > > instead. He verbally abuses and assualts his sister > instead. Compassion > > for a person ' s pain does not translate into > overlooking and accepting > > their bad choices. That is not compassion, that is > enabling. > > > > Every one of us here, if we are truly KOs , lived with > various forms of > > abuse. We can recognize it. We can have compassion for > people who may > > have suffered it, and are now perpetuating the cycle of > abuse to the > > next generation. We ought never to tolerate it, or > minimize it, or > > accept it. > > > > I have compassion for that terrified 17 year old wondering > what is going > > to set off her father and get her slapped, or punched, or > choked again. > > I dont know that he suffered hell to get where he is, but > if so , I have > > compassion for his pain. That doesnt give him license to > push his pain > > on helpless people like a bully. That is what our BP > families do. > > > > I WILL NEVER ACCEPT THAT THAT IS OK! Just as we set > bounderies for > > ourselves, that say, if you do this action, then this will > be the > > result, so there must be bounderies that say if you choke > your daughter, > > then this will happen. She, and we, may all feel > compassion for his > > pain and anger if the results occur, but if we let > ourselves shield > > abusive behaviours, we enable them. > > > > Please, never ever forget, that if someone had intervened > on your behalf > > when you were a child living with a BP parent, many of the > pains and > > dysfunctions you now carry may not be there, or at least > may be much > > less of a problem. > > > > I think that a part of our healing is reaching the point of > saying 1st, > > I will no longer accept what a BP considers normal > behavior. But 2nd, > > is , I think, being an advocate for the helpless ones who > are now like > > we were, and saying neither will I accept that behavior > toward another > > helpless person. > > > > Please believe that I understand very fully the difference > in cruel kids > > at school teasing my grandson as he has an inappropriate > emotional > > response, and thinking or saying something derogatory about > a man who > > choked his teenaged daughter. My compassion for my > grandson includes > > the hard work of helping him make appropriate choices. My > compassion for > > the other fellow is overridden by compassion for his > victim. Once she > > is protected, we can think about helping him. But > regardless what he may > > have lived as a child, HE is NOT the one getting choked and > shoved > > around, she is. > > > > I may feel great compassion for the alcoholic I see passed > out naked on > > his kitchen floor, or in the street, but that does not > translate to > > enabling his behaviors. I ll stay up all night and hold his > hand while > > he sweats out withdrawel, but if he breaks into my business > and steals > > my office equipment to pawn and continue a drunk, I ll > press charges. > > > > All those things are real, by the way, I saw the guy, > charged him when > > he stold from me, and sweated out withdrawel with him. I > would not be > > doing him a favor by overlooking another drunken rampage, > nor would I do > > so. > > > > We must be careful that compassion is not mistaken for > accepting. > > > > We all suffer what we went thru. Compassion should surely > be a part of > > our healing, yet so must accountablility, for ourselves, > and for others. > > > > Keep healing > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Doug, I have told both of my > therapists > > > > about this incident. > > > > > > > > > Neither of them suggested that I > could/should report > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deanna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > >Â Â Â > > > > > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > >Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 Hi Jackie, I could picture this whole scene ...you having to put yourself to bed and being afraid your mom would not be there when you called and then she would make you call over and over. It's so sad. I'm sorry this happened to you. I just get blown away by the way people treat their children. When I had a child I loved him soooo much, that I could never ever do such things to him; made sure he was always tucked into bed and felt loved. Sorry Jackie~ ~patricia Re: Abusive E-mails (((((((Jackie))))))) Seems to me that those behaviors come from someone who deeply resented being a mother; just hated it. So she either tormented her poor, helpless child or ignored you, as though being born was your fault. She was so cold and rejecting toward you as well as actively physically and emotionally abusive. That's so heart-breaking; I wish you could have been rescued, or given up for adoption at birth to lonely parents with empty arms aching to cuddle and love a child. -Annie > > your dad seemed to be compassionate at times towards you..he wasn't mean all > the time...that may be the big difference in our behaviors toward our BPD > parent. nada was never nice to me..if she wasn't laughing, yelling, raging, > beating, she was neglecting/ignoring me...I remember when I was in the first > grade. I had to go upstairs, in the dark to brush my teeth, wash my hands > and face and put myself to bed. All the times nada threatened that some > night she was going to run away from home and never come back...so just > before I got into bed, I'd stand at the head of the stairs and yell " good > night " absolute silence...I said this over and over, hoping for some > response..I got a response from nada...she'd yell at me to go to bed or > she'd come up there and beat me... > > Jackie > > > > I watched New Moon with my daughter and when the character turned into > the wolf, I remember being terrified and thinking that it was just like the > transformation of my dad. He was absolutely terrifying, and he did beat me > in a rage twice, once in front of many people who were too terrified to > intervene (I fought him back and screamed obscenities at him which when it > got back to my sister, she held it in her pocket of tricks and pulled it out > for a big laugh at family parties). But he was also kind at times. Mostly to > strangers. And children at times. I remember running for the bus in middle > school, outside our home, and tripping and falling flat on my face. I heard > the kids on the bus laughing and I turned around and ran into the house > crying. My dad had to go to work and instead of hollering at me and calling > me names like he might have done, he gave me sympathy and happily drove me > to school. I remember that with such gratitude. I thought he > would kill me, and surprise! > Recently, when I came here I stayed with my friend who had a dog who had > been beaten as a puppy. My friend's daughter had a boyfriend who looked like > the person who beat him. Whenever this boyfriend came over the dog went > absolutely beserk. He growled, snarled, lunged and also screeched a high > pitch screech like you had just stepped on his tail. It was one of the most > pitiful things I had ever witnessed. Maybe because it reminded me of my dad. > I have not been in your shoes. I respect your experiences and the way you > deal with them. I don't disagree with you. I just have a different > perspective. Feeling compassion is not the same as condoning horrible > behavior. Not at all.I am involved in domestic violence support. The stories > there are intense. I deeply respect all of our journeys including our > parents'. > Leanne > ------------------------------------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 thanks ...nada was mean in this way a lot. I had abandonment issues for a long time...still do a little... Jackie > Hi Jackie, > I could picture this whole scene ...you having to put yourself to bed and > being afraid your mom would not > be there when you called and then she would make you call over and over. > It's so sad. I'm sorry this > happened to you. I just get blown away by the way people treat their > children. When I had a child I loved > him soooo much, that I could never ever do such things to him; made sure > he was always tucked into bed and > felt loved. > Sorry Jackie~ > ~patricia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Ahhh, I have awful abandonment issues too!! It sucks. My mother never hugged either and it was soooooooooooo creepy feeling when she was dying she suddenly wanted to tell me she loved me and hug me. It just felt SO FREAKING AWKWARD to hug her. As a result, though, I am not a hugging type person. I can remember when I was in high school, my friend got upset over a breakup with a boyfriend and she reached out to hug me and was crying. I JUST STOOD THERE. I didn't even know what to do, where to put my arms. It was just such an uncomfortable thing for me. Even now, I have some problems with hugging other adults. Even when my therapist hugs me, I just kind of want to crawl in a hole. In a message dated 12/30/2009 2:44:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, coyotesun1@... writes: Jackie~ I have horrible abandonment issues! Plus issues around people getting too close; my mother was/is the kind of person who was invasive and would hug too long sort of thing, psyche-invasion. ~patricia Re: Re: Abusive E-mails thanks ...nada was mean in this way a lot. I had abandonment issues for a long time...still do a little... Jackie > Hi Jackie, > I could picture this whole scene ...you having to put yourself to bed and > being afraid your mom would not > be there when you called and then she would make you call over and over. > It's so sad. I'm sorry this > happened to you. I just get blown away by the way people treat their > children. When I had a child I loved > him soooo much, that I could never ever do such things to him; made sure > he was always tucked into bed and > felt loved. > Sorry Jackie~ > ~patricia ------------------------------------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at _@..._ (mailto:@...) . SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook.Yahoo! Groups Links ---------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.722 / Virus Database: 270.14.123/2592 - Release Date: 12/29/09 02:47:00 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 , What a poignant story. There are so many ways to look at this story. It is horrible. But we don't know the whole story. Maybe her father was raping her all along. Maybe reporting it herself gave her the sense of strength she will carry with her the rest of her life. Maybe not. Last night, we went to my sister's for dinner. On the way home I was talking to my dad about his mom I asked when the state took him away how did he feel. Horrible! he said. He cried and cried when they took him. He missed his mom.. He never talked about the kind things she did for him. (His dad died, shot by police after robbing a bank when he was 3.) He talked about her shockingly horrible moments with such sadness. Maybe the good things were just too hard to remember. I asked him " was she nice to you some times dad? "  He said so sadly, " oh god yah, she was my mom, she gave me life "  (he is not religious). Then silence, then, " god I wish they never took me away " . I was so surprised to hear this. He spent the rest of his childhood in a Catholic orphanage, with occasional visits by his mom, and to his mom.  He said the orphanage treated him well- " no shenanigans " he always said.  But he was never paid special attention too. The nuns would sit with him if he was really sick, but it was a different nun different times.. No connection. When I was little, he would drink alcohol (hasn't in 28 yrs) and cry if he was alone.  If he drank with his buddies, he was happy and joking.  He was not a mean drunk. He would talk and talk. It was inappropriate for a kid to hear these things probably, but it was a deep connection for me. I loved talking to him. I believe I understand how he feels about me leaving when he is so sick. Shit, it hurts so bad. But my kids need to be back by their dad. NOT living with him (thank you domestic violence counseling) but near him so they can visit. It is precisely my love for my dad that makes me go back. I assume, wrong or right that my kids love their dad, are connected to their dad like I am, like my dad was connected to his mom, and need to be near him. THEY tell me they want to be near dad, they miss him (not like I would have missed my dad I think, because I am close to them, my beloved mom was emotionally distant).  But who is to know. I am so scared. I have not been working for 6 months, have a very demanding profession and very demanding parenting obligations. It is risky but I must try. And my oldest daughter wants to graduate with the class she left so I need to do it now.  My dad is freaking out and telling me over and over I am making a mistake. I know I am not, but he is wearing me down. I leave in a couple of days.  New year, new identity. Thanks for listening to my rambling. It helped me. Leanne ________________________________ To: WTOAdultChildren1 Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 4:12:18 PM Subject: Re: Re: Abusive E-mails  Leanne~your post reminded me of an experience I had about 20 years ago. I was a 'teacher' for kids with problems that couldn't go to regular high school. One of my students I had spent a long long time connecting with and gaining her trust. One day she was pretty down and I asked her what happened. She, after awhile, told me that her parents grabbed her off the street and took a blood sample (mom was a phlebotomist) to test her for drugs. I thought that was abuse. But she begged me not to report it. I asked her why and she said she did not want to go in a foster home; she had younger siblings she wanted to look after and she didn't want to live with strangers (and possible abuse there). I ended up not telling. A couple years later I was called to testify about this in a court case; she had gotten the nerve to accuse her father of rape and I was a witness for her. Now I have no opinion around reporting abuse; it is mandated of course. But I was in this strange position (not a professional teacher, and just giving comfort/counsel to a teen girl, I myself was 25 at the time); the lawyer asked me why I did not report the incident and I said it was because she begged me not to and gave the reasons. I don't know if I was right or wrong. Who can say how things would have worked out. I'm glad though she got a conviction on her dad though; they sent him to state prison. ~patricia Re: Abusive E-mails > To: WTOAdultChildren1@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 7:48 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey folks, > > > > I m not mad at anybody, but I will maintain my resolve to > speak the > > truth, and call it for what it is. The violent abuser may > have had a > > horrible childhood, but if there is to be hope for the next > generation, > > we have to break that cycle by stoppping his abuse of that > next > > generation. > > > > I have a young relative with Asperger s syndrome. It is an > autism > > spectrum disorder. He has trouble with his emotional > reactions, and > > makes inappropriate choices. The world wont change to > accomodate him, so > > his mom does the hard wrenching work of constantly putting > him on track, > > and reminding him that there are consequences, and helping > him to think > > about making good choices. The kids at his school will not > be the ones > > to cut him some slack, they will be cruel. So she does all > she can to > > help him overcome his disability. It will pay off > enormously when he is > > older. > > > > This abusive brother discussed here may have had a horrible > childhood, > > and a BPD parent. He should have gotten help when it might > have > > mattered. He didnt. His sister had the same parents, and > she is not > > beating on kids, now is she? He is an adult now, and > responsible for his > > actions. His daughter may have some chance to break out of > the cycle > > that brings us all here, and damaged adults, who were child > KO s. But > > for all the horrible childhood I had, I am responsible for > my actions > > and my mistakes. I have to learn from them and grow, or be > trapped and > > deal with the consequences of them all my life. I get to > make a choice. > > So does he. I m sorry for whatever hell made him a man who > will grab > > his 17 year old daugher by her throat and shove her against > the wall. > > But I do not, and will not excuse his actions. Years from > now, his > > daughter s therapist may help her come to grips with it by > looking at > > his life, but the very real situation right now is he is a > violent, > > controlling, abusive man. > > > > His choices. His consequences. He could get help. He > could walk away > > from situations that make him angry. He choked slammed his > daughter > > instead. He verbally abuses and assualts his sister > instead. Compassion > > for a person ' s pain does not translate into > overlooking and accepting > > their bad choices. That is not compassion, that is > enabling. > > > > Every one of us here, if we are truly KOs , lived with > various forms of > > abuse. We can recognize it. We can have compassion for > people who may > > have suffered it, and are now perpetuating the cycle of > abuse to the > > next generation. We ought never to tolerate it, or > minimize it, or > > accept it. > > > > I have compassion for that terrified 17 year old wondering > what is going > > to set off her father and get her slapped, or punched, or > choked again. > > I dont know that he suffered hell to get where he is, but > if so , I have > > compassion for his pain. That doesnt give him license to > push his pain > > on helpless people like a bully. That is what our BP > families do. > > > > I WILL NEVER ACCEPT THAT THAT IS OK! Just as we set > bounderies for > > ourselves, that say, if you do this action, then this will > be the > > result, so there must be bounderies that say if you choke > your daughter, > > then this will happen. She, and we, may all feel > compassion for his > > pain and anger if the results occur, but if we let > ourselves shield > > abusive behaviours, we enable them. > > > > Please, never ever forget, that if someone had intervened > on your behalf > > when you were a child living with a BP parent, many of the > pains and > > dysfunctions you now carry may not be there, or at least > may be much > > less of a problem. > > > > I think that a part of our healing is reaching the point of > saying 1st, > > I will no longer accept what a BP considers normal > behavior. But 2nd, > > is , I think, being an advocate for the helpless ones who > are now like > > we were, and saying neither will I accept that behavior > toward another > > helpless person. > > > > Please believe that I understand very fully the difference > in cruel kids > > at school teasing my grandson as he has an inappropriate > emotional > > response, and thinking or saying something derogatory about > a man who > > choked his teenaged daughter. My compassion for my > grandson includes > > the hard work of helping him make appropriate choices. My > compassion for > > the other fellow is overridden by compassion for his > victim. Once she > > is protected, we can think about helping him.. But > regardless what he may > > have lived as a child, HE is NOT the one getting choked and > shoved > > around, she is. > > > > I may feel great compassion for the alcoholic I see passed > out naked on > > his kitchen floor, or in the street, but that does not > translate to > > enabling his behaviors. I ll stay up all night and hold his > hand while > > he sweats out withdrawel, but if he breaks into my business > and steals > > my office equipment to pawn and continue a drunk, I ll > press charges. > > > > All those things are real, by the way, I saw the guy, > charged him when > > he stold from me, and sweated out withdrawel with him. I > would not be > > doing him a favor by overlooking another drunken rampage, > nor would I do > > so. > > > > We must be careful that compassion is not mistaken for > accepting. > > > > We all suffer what we went thru. Compassion should surely > be a part of > > our healing, yet so must accountablility, for ourselves, > and for others. > > > > Keep healing > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Doug, I have told both of my > therapists > > > > about this incident. > > > > > > > > > Neither of them suggested that I > could/should report > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deanna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > >Â Â Â > > > > > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > >Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at BPDCentral (DOT) com. SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Leanne, I wish to God someone had taken me away. At least I would have had a chance. It may have been no better outside of their house, but there would have at least been some hope that things could eventually. If it had not been for my teachers and ministers, I don't think I would have survived at all. I have great compassion for my parents, but I do not have any desire to see them ever again and if I had never met them, I would be better off for it. Looking into their eyes is like gazing at the mouth of hell, and I wish I did not know what hell looks like. Sure, they were nice to me at times, but it was always because they wanted something. Nothing they ever did was genuine or freely given. Everything had a price. They did not know how to interact with the world in any other way except to manipulate others to meet their own needs. I knew this with nada from the time I was around 4. With my fada, it took most of my life to figure that out--he wasn't bpd. Best, Ashana The INTERNET now has a personality. YOURS! See your Yahoo! Homepage. http://in.yahoo.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 same here !! I wish someone would have taken me away !! Jackie Leanne, I wish to God someone had taken me away. At least I would have had a chance. It may have been no better outside of their house, but there would have at least been some hope that things could eventually. If it had not been for my teachers and ministers, I don't think I would have survived at all. I have great compassion for my parents, but I do not have any desire to see them ever again and if I had never met them, I would be better off for it. Looking into their eyes is like gazing at the mouth of hell, and I wish I did not know what hell looks like. Sure, they were nice to me at times, but it was always because they wanted something. Nothing they ever did was genuine or freely given. Everything had a price. They did not know how to interact with the world in any other way except to manipulate others to meet their own needs. I knew this with nada from the time I was around 4. With my fada, it took most of my life to figure that out--he wasn't bpd. Best, Ashana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Jackie~ I have horrible abandonment issues! Plus issues around people getting too close; my mother was/is the kind of person who was invasive and would hug too long sort of thing, psyche-invasion. ~patricia Re: Re: Abusive E-mails thanks ...nada was mean in this way a lot. I had abandonment issues for a long time...still do a little... Jackie > Hi Jackie, > I could picture this whole scene ...you having to put yourself to bed and > being afraid your mom would not > be there when you called and then she would make you call over and over. > It's so sad. I'm sorry this > happened to you. I just get blown away by the way people treat their > children. When I had a child I loved > him soooo much, that I could never ever do such things to him; made sure > he was always tucked into bed and > felt loved. > Sorry Jackie~ > ~patricia ------------------------------------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at @.... SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (Lawson) and " Surviving the Borderline Parent, " (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 that's creepy LOL nada never hugged us, and never kissed us...WE had to kiss her on the cheek, but she never kissed us, not even when we were sick or hurt...I never saw nada and fada hug either..and fada only gave nada a peck on the cheek as well.....my mother-in-law is a hugger..and it took a LONG time to feel OK with being hugged by her...how odd, but with my husband it didn't take long at all to feel comfortable with him hugging me... I've worked on my abandonment issues for a long time...and I've gotten almost normal about them.. Jackie > Jackie~ I have horrible abandonment issues! Plus issues around people > getting too close; > my mother was/is the kind of person who was invasive and would hug too > long sort of thing, > psyche-invasion. > ~patricia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Hi Leanne, Your story about your dad is so poignant. His life, which mirrors the lives of many, has such sad beginnings. It's a wonder to me how people can even function. You have a lot of insight, you know? And I think you probably made a good decision for yourself. I'm sure your dad is sad and upset. But you do need to do what you need to do. Just keep remembering that. That you know what is best for you. Sometimes my friends will give me advice, and it goes against what I plan or want and I just have to say to myself that I know myself, know what I need and how I go about things. Good luck ~patricia Re: Abusive E-mails > To: WTOAdultChildren1@ yahoogroups. com > Date: Monday, December 28, 2009, 7:48 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey folks, > > > > I m not mad at anybody, but I will maintain my resolve to > speak the > > truth, and call it for what it is. The violent abuser may > have had a > > horrible childhood, but if there is to be hope for the next > generation, > > we have to break that cycle by stoppping his abuse of that > next > > generation. > > > > I have a young relative with Asperger s syndrome. It is an > autism > > spectrum disorder. He has trouble with his emotional > reactions, and > > makes inappropriate choices. The world wont change to > accomodate him, so > > his mom does the hard wrenching work of constantly putting > him on track, > > and reminding him that there are consequences, and helping > him to think > > about making good choices. The kids at his school will not > be the ones > > to cut him some slack, they will be cruel. So she does all > she can to > > help him overcome his disability. It will pay off > enormously when he is > > older. > > > > This abusive brother discussed here may have had a horrible > childhood, > > and a BPD parent. He should have gotten help when it might > have > > mattered. He didnt. His sister had the same parents, and > she is not > > beating on kids, now is she? He is an adult now, and > responsible for his > > actions. His daughter may have some chance to break out of > the cycle > > that brings us all here, and damaged adults, who were child > KO s. But > > for all the horrible childhood I had, I am responsible for > my actions > > and my mistakes. I have to learn from them and grow, or be > trapped and > > deal with the consequences of them all my life. I get to > make a choice. > > So does he. I m sorry for whatever hell made him a man who > will grab > > his 17 year old daugher by her throat and shove her against > the wall. > > But I do not, and will not excuse his actions. Years from > now, his > > daughter s therapist may help her come to grips with it by > looking at > > his life, but the very real situation right now is he is a > violent, > > controlling, abusive man. > > > > His choices. His consequences. He could get help. He > could walk away > > from situations that make him angry. He choked slammed his > daughter > > instead. He verbally abuses and assualts his sister > instead. Compassion > > for a person ' s pain does not translate into > overlooking and accepting > > their bad choices. That is not compassion, that is > enabling. > > > > Every one of us here, if we are truly KOs , lived with > various forms of > > abuse. We can recognize it. We can have compassion for > people who may > > have suffered it, and are now perpetuating the cycle of > abuse to the > > next generation. We ought never to tolerate it, or > minimize it, or > > accept it. > > > > I have compassion for that terrified 17 year old wondering > what is going > > to set off her father and get her slapped, or punched, or > choked again. > > I dont know that he suffered hell to get where he is, but > if so , I have > > compassion for his pain. That doesnt give him license to > push his pain > > on helpless people like a bully. That is what our BP > families do. > > > > I WILL NEVER ACCEPT THAT THAT IS OK! Just as we set > bounderies for > > ourselves, that say, if you do this action, then this will > be the > > result, so there must be bounderies that say if you choke > your daughter, > > then this will happen. She, and we, may all feel > compassion for his > > pain and anger if the results occur, but if we let > ourselves shield > > abusive behaviours, we enable them. > > > > Please, never ever forget, that if someone had intervened > on your behalf > > when you were a child living with a BP parent, many of the > pains and > > dysfunctions you now carry may not be there, or at least > may be much > > less of a problem. > > > > I think that a part of our healing is reaching the point of > saying 1st, > > I will no longer accept what a BP considers normal > behavior. But 2nd, > > is , I think, being an advocate for the helpless ones who > are now like > > we were, and saying neither will I accept that behavior > toward another > > helpless person. > > > > Please believe that I understand very fully the difference > in cruel kids > > at school teasing my grandson as he has an inappropriate > emotional > > response, and thinking or saying something derogatory about > a man who > > choked his teenaged daughter. My compassion for my > grandson includes > > the hard work of helping him make appropriate choices. My > compassion for > > the other fellow is overridden by compassion for his > victim. Once she > > is protected, we can think about helping him.. But > regardless what he may > > have lived as a child, HE is NOT the one getting choked and > shoved > > around, she is. > > > > I may feel great compassion for the alcoholic I see passed > out naked on > > his kitchen floor, or in the street, but that does not > translate to > > enabling his behaviors. I ll stay up all night and hold his > hand while > > he sweats out withdrawel, but if he breaks into my business > and steals > > my office equipment to pawn and continue a drunk, I ll > press charges. > > > > All those things are real, by the way, I saw the guy, > charged him when > > he stold from me, and sweated out withdrawel with him. I > would not be > > doing him a favor by overlooking another drunken rampage, > nor would I do > > so. > > > > We must be careful that compassion is not mistaken for > accepting. > > > > We all suffer what we went thru. Compassion should surely > be a part of > > our healing, yet so must accountablility, for ourselves, > and for others. > > > > Keep healing > > > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Doug, I have told both of my > therapists > > > > about this incident. > > > > > > > > > Neither of them suggested that I > could/should report > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Deanna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > >Â Â Â > > > > > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > >Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > >Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ Problems? Ask our friendly List Manager for help at BPDCentral (DOT) com. SEND HER ANY POSTS THAT CONCERN YOU; DO NOT Respond ON THE GROUP. To order the KO bible " Stop Walking on Eggshells, " call 888-35-SHELL () for your copy. We also refer to �Understanding the Borderline Mother� (Lawson) and �Surviving the Borderline Parent,� (Roth) which you can find at any bookstore. Welcome to the WTO community! From Randi Kreger, Owner BPDCentral, WTO Online Community and author SWOE and the SWOE Workbook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I feel uncomfortable being hugged by people I'm not close to or dont know well..my therapist hugged me after every session, and I felt awkward about it...but that was because I didn't really know her well....I dont have a problem hugging my sisters, or my brothers when they were alive...I dont have a problem hugging my husbands side of the family either....but I cant just hug any/everyone LOL Jackie Ahhh, I have awful abandonment issues too!! It sucks. My mother never hugged either and it was soooooooooooo creepy feeling when she was dying she suddenly wanted to tell me she loved me and hug me. It just felt SO FREAKING AWKWARD to hug her. As a result, though, I am not a hugging type person. I can remember when I was in high school, my friend got upset over a breakup with a boyfriend and she reached out to hug me and was crying. I JUST STOOD THERE. I didn't even know what to do, where to put my arms. It was just such an uncomfortable thing for me. Even now, I have some problems with hugging other adults. Even when my therapist hugs me, I just kind of want to crawl in a hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 After learning what I have from these posts, I understand viscerally how you can feel that you wish someone had taken you away. And I am sure you are right. My dad did not get the opportunity to see what it would have been like, how much worse it could have been, so he is full of wishful thinking. The fact is, none of us can undo what happened. It is so nice to be able to commiserate here on this site. I am reading Stop Walking On Eggshells. It is very painful but very helpful. I still have a ways to go. Leanne > > Subject: Re: Re: Abusive E-mails > To: WTOAdultChildren1 > Date: Wednesday, December 30, 2009, 12:08 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > > > > > > > same here !! I wish someone would have taken me > away !! > > > > Jackie > > > > Leanne, > > > > I wish to God someone had taken me away. At least I would > have had a chance. > > It may have been no better outside of their house, but > there would have at > > least been some hope that things could eventually. If it > had not been for my > > teachers and ministers, I don't think I would have > survived at all. I have > > great compassion for my parents, but I do not have any > desire to see them > > ever again and if I had never met them, I would be better > off for it. > > Looking into their eyes is like gazing at the mouth of > hell, and I wish I > > did not know what hell looks like. > > > > Sure, they were nice to me at times, but it was always > because they wanted > > something. Nothing they ever did was genuine or freely > given. Everything had > > a price. They did not know how to interact with the world > in any other way > > except to manipulate others to meet their own needs. I knew > this with nada > > from the time I was around 4. With my fada, it took most of > my life to > > figure that out--he wasn't bpd. > > > > Best, > > Ashana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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