Re: Docs Prescribing Armour

[Guest guest]

Bev! What a great question....asking if any prescribe 3 grains or more! So

smart of you!

Loriann

> Hi EveryOne,

>

> Just called my local pharmacy and spoke with the druggist about which docs

> in town prescribe Armour. Evidently four of them do - which is great.

> Problem is, none of them prescribe a dose of 3 grains or more only 2 grains

> or less.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Bev, that's great news. FOUR!! Wish my area even had ONE! Now

all you have to do is help one of them realize that there is NOTHING

WRONG with taking enough to suppress the TSH. Even Armour docs are

too concerned about that darn TSH!!

Janie )

> Just called my local pharmacy and spoke with the druggist about

which docs

> in town prescribe Armour. Evidently four of them do - which is

great.

> Problem is, none of them prescribe a dose of 3 grains or more only

2 grains

> or less.

[Guest guest]

> Hey Bev, that's great news. FOUR!! Wish my area even had ONE! Now

> all you have to do is help one of them realize that there is

NOTHING

> WRONG with taking enough to suppress the TSH. Even Armour docs are

> too concerned about that darn TSH!!

>

> Janie )

>

Great news, Bev!

Another thing I don't understand - why are doctors so scared of

suppressing the TSH? I mean, they routinely do that for thyroid

cancer survivors, don't they? Are there risks that I'm not aware

of? I know there is a great risk attached to becoming hyperthyroid,

but if you never exhibit any symptoms of that, then...what's the

risk? And I know that if you get too much T-3, you have to worry

about osteoporosis, but again, with Armour, you get the calcitonin

too so you shouldn't have to worry about bone mass.

I'm glad my brain fog went away. If I had brain fog still, I would

have even more of a hard time trying to figure out all these

mysteries.

Gentle

[Guest guest]

Bev, that's horrible, and frustrating. When you go to a doctor, you

want to feel well again, and feel disappointed if you aren't given

the help you need.

I guess that's part of why I was afraid to ask my husband to pay out

of pocket for a doctor. I thought - what if I don't get better, and

he's out that money? I'd feel guilty for the rest of my life.

I don't understand why doctors don't give more than 2 grains. They

used to use a starting dose of 3 grains, because they were not able

to detect improvement with any less than 3 grains. Plus, what if a

doctor has a very heavy patient, isn't the dose supposed to be

adjusted somewhat for body weight? What if the patient has

resistance to the thyroid hormones at the cellular level and needs

more to feel well?

Did they have a bunch of patients dying or suffering adverse effects

on the old dose of 3 grains and higher? Is that why they stopped

doing that?

Gentle

[Guest guest]

Bev.. is Health Check not in the state of New York?

www.healthcheckusa.com

There has to be away...

For that much money.. it would be worth a drive to a bordering state that

participates.. then you would hav your labs to see where you stand... and

then consider ordering meds....????

Topper ()

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:11:48 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) " *~ OM ~* "

writes:

> Hi Janie and EveryOne,

>

> Sounds good doesn't it? Only trouble is, they will not prescribe

> thyroid

> hormone to a new patient without a complete physical, lab tests etc.

> Then

> they might, or probably would not, allow me to have a surpressed TSH

> and a

> high T3 so I'd be out around $1,000.00 and still not have the Armour

> I need.

> That is not an exaggeration! It happened to me last year. Without

> insurance

> I cannot afford to educate doctors - I have to find one who is

> already

> educated. Not one of the docs prescribes more than 2 grains.

>

> In New York you cannot order lab tests on line you have to do to the

> doc,

> pay his fee, have the labs done and pay the lab too. Then you may or

> may not

> get the Armour you need.

>

> BTW for most of the Free Drug Programs etc. that I have seen you

> have to go

> through your doctor and each time you need a script it has to come

> through

> the doc. Doctor visits cost a lot more than the meds!!!

>

> Peace, Love and Harmony,

> Bev

[Guest guest]

Gosh... that reads really condescending.. I didnt' mean to be... gosh.. I

just got done with a rather bitter email and I'm afraid my mind was still

on a bad track... I apologize..

My intent was to suggest Health Check as a researchable option!

shy smile...

Topper () *hanging head in shame*

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 07:05:43 -0600 topper2@... writes:

> Bev.. is Health Check not in the state of New York?

>

> www.healthcheckusa.com

>

> There has to be away...

>

> For that much money.. it would be worth a drive to a bordering state

> that

> participates.. then you would hav your labs to see where you

> stand... and

> then consider ordering meds....????

>

> Topper ()

[Guest guest]

> Bev.. is Health Check not in the state of New York?

>

> www.healthcheckusa.com

>

> There has to be away...

>

> For that much money.. it would be worth a drive to a bordering

state that

> participates.. then you would hav your labs to see where you

stand... and

> then consider ordering meds....????

>

> Topper ()

ZRT labs has a blood spot testing for thyroid, etc - you just prick

your finger and put 5 little blood spots on the thing to send back to

them...no blood draw. and they also have saliva testing for just

about all the hormones..anyone who wants to send the results to me,

or they will also e-mail your results, just give them a different

address or something.Although...they have to send the tes kit to the

right address...I don;t know..not thinking well yet this AM..LOL

http://www.salivatest.com

[Guest guest]

The blood spot tests for TSH, FT3 and/or FT4...the problem is, it's

expensive...$60 per each test - you choose which one you want

done....as my doctor says, " it's only a snapshot in time " ...but if a

person needs to know, it's an option.

> It's my understanding that the do it yourself thyroid tests like

that

> only do TSH??

>

> Have they upgraded that?

>

> Do you happen to know the price? Rough idea...

>

> Topper ()

>

> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:47:09 -0000 " astrodiana " <Astrodiana@c...>

> writes:

> > ZRT labs has a blood spot testing for thyroid, etc - you just

prick

> > your finger and put 5 little blood spots on the thing to send

back

> > to

> > them...no blood draw. and they also have saliva testing for just

> > about all the hormones..anyone who wants to send the results to

me,

> > or they will also e-mail your results, just give them a different

> > address or something.Although...they have to send the tes kit to

the

> > right address...I don;t know..not thinking well yet this

AM..LOL

> >

> > http://www.salivatest.com

[Guest guest]

> So to get all three would be $180..? That puts health check

cheaper...

> they do a bunch of tests PLUS those for $75 and more for $100.

>

> Topper ()

I know..healthcheck is cheaper and really a good deal, but it

requires the person to go somewhere for the blood draw - if I were

going to do that, I would just go to my doctor and get it all done,

but I know there are some that can't...ZRT are saliva or blood spot -

all can be done at home...we got the adrenal profile frmm ZRT ( 4 x

saliva collection for cortisol and DHEA)for one of my sons..it was

$150. but the doctor said it was cheaper than Great Smokies, so we

did it....

[Guest guest]

But I like the way you can get your free T3 alone checked for $60.

Sometimes that's all you need to know.

Janie

> So to get all three would be $180..? That puts health check

cheaper...

> they do a bunch of tests PLUS those for $75 and more for $100.

>

> Topper ()

>

> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:20:50 -0000 " astrodiana " <Astrodiana@c...>

> writes:

> > The blood spot tests for TSH, FT3 and/or FT4...the problem is,

it's

> > expensive...$60 per each test - you choose which one you want

> > done....as my doctor says, " it's only a snapshot in time " ...but

if a

> > person needs to know, it's an option.

[Guest guest]

Hi, Loriann, thank you for the advice! We're already cutting

corners pretty good...well mostly...I could be more frugal.

The thing is, we are trying to save $15,000 for a downpayment on a

house (we are moving to Ohio in about 16 months and hope to buy a

house then) so it would be very hard to afford a doctor AND a

house...

I'm doing so very well on my own, though, that I kind of think I

don't really need a doctor's help to be honest...

In fact my bladder pain from IC is lessening each day....and I

stopped taking my Elmiron again....just to see if the thyroid

medicine has fixed my bladder again...

The only thing a doc could do for me that I can't do for myself, is

to do TSH etc. on me. And I am kind of going by the advice of Dr.

Lowe who says to listen to my body and not the labs...so really I

think labs are pretty useless in my case. Dr. Lowe believes that

those of us who have fibromyalgia need larger than normal doses of

Armour, to the point where our labs would look " bad " to a regular

doc anyway..but that is the only way we can be free of the

fibromyalgia pain.

So I think my strategy now is to just monitor myself for signs of

hyper (none so far) and keep listening to my body and responding to

what my body seems to want...

Gentle

[Guest guest]

Hey Gentle,

What are the symptoms of fibromyalgia, I don't think I have it, but

never really have seen what the symptoms are.

Thanks,

Debra

[Guest guest]

> My son was concerned with buying it from a lab in Mexico, he

thought they might be making it here and not have good quality

control in the manufacturing prosee. But I discussed that with DH

and he and I both thought if it is Armour then it has to be

consistant in the way it is made and is probably manufactured in the

same plant.

Yes..It is made here...it is Armour from Forest labs.

[Guest guest]

> Hey Gentle,

>

> What are the symptoms of fibromyalgia, I don't think I have it,

but

> never really have seen what the symptoms are.

>

> Thanks,

> Debra

Hi, Debra!

One of the " big five " fibromyalgia diseases is...you guessed it,

Interstitial Cystitis! So everything Dr. Lowe writes about can

probably be considered of interest to anyone who has IC since IC is

now classified under the " fibromyalgia " umbrella along with four

other common diseases...

XXXXX

What are the symptoms of fibromyalgia?

The main symptoms of FM include:

Muscle pain in many areas of the body.

Fatigue.

" Tender points " in specific areas of the body that are painful when

pressure is applied to them.

In addition to these symptoms, other common symptoms of FM include:

Sleep problems. People with FM often have poor quality sleep that is

not refreshing.

Depression or anxiety.

Stiffness, especially in the morning.

Problems with thinking and concentrating.

Headaches, jaw pain, or abdominal pain.

Digestive problems such as bloating and trouble swallowing.

Bladder problems such as interstitial cystitis.

Feelings of numbness or tingling in hands, feet, or other areas.

Other conditions sometimes found in FM patients include irritable

bowel syndrome (IBS), restless legs syndrome (RLS), periodic limb

movement disorder (PLMD), temporomandibular joint (TMJ) pain, and

myofascial pain syndrome (MPS).

How common is fibromyalgia? Who is mainly affected by it?

The National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin

Diseases (NIAMS) estimates that the number of adults in the United

States with FM is about 3.7 million. Other organizations estimate

that the number may be as high as 8 million. It mainly occurs in

women of childbearing age, but children, the elderly, and men are

sometimes diagnosed with FM.

What causes fibromyalgia?

Although the cause of FM is unknown, researchers have several

theories about causes or triggers of the disorder. Some scientists

believe that an injury or trauma may sometimes cause the syndrome.

This injury may affect the central nervous system. FM may be linked

to muscle changes that cause fatigue and decreased strength. Others

believe that an infection caused by a virus or other agent may

trigger FM in susceptible people.

Other possible factors in FM include psychological stress, hormonal

changes, or other changes in body chemicals such as serotonin and

Substance P. The hormones produced by the hypothalamus-pituitary-

adrenal (HPA) axis may be important in FM. Sleep problems, so common

in people with FM, may be a cause as well as a symptom of FM.

Increased sensitivity to and perception of pain seems to be

involved.

How is fibromyalgia diagnosed?

Fibromyalgia is hard to diagnose because many of the symptoms are

like those of other disorders. There is no lab test for FM. The

American College of Rheumatology (ACR) has developed criteria for

FM. According to ACR criteria, a person is considered to have FM if

he or she has:

widespread pain for at least 3 months, and

tenderness in at least 11 of 18 specific tender point sites in the

neck, spine, shoulders, hips, and knees.

There is some controversy about the criteria for diagnosing FM. Some

experts believe that it is not necessary to have at least 11 tender

points for diagnosis, or pain that affects all segments of the body

at the same time.

How is fibromyalgia treated?

If you have FM, you may need to work with your doctor to find a

treatment plan that helps you. FM patients may benefit from a

combination of exercise, medicine, physical therapy, and relaxation.

There are medicines that may help elevate mood, improve quality of

sleep, reduce pain, and relax muscles.

Drug therapies used in fibromyalgia include:

Drugs for pain. These include aspirin, ibuprofen, and other pain

relievers.

Antidepressants. These drugs can help relieve depression and may

also help with sleep. Low doses of certain tricyclic antidepressants

and the newer serotonin boosters (SSRIs) are often used.

Drugs for anxiety (anxiolytics). These medicines can help with

anxiety and with sleep.

Muscle relaxants such as cyclobenzaprine.

Exercise, including low-impact aerobic exercise (such as walking and

swimming) and strength training have been found to be helpful in FM

patients. But it is important to pace yourself and not overdo it.

Exercise may help you increase your flexibility and strength, help

with pain and sleep, and make you feel better in general. Heat and

massage may also give short-term relief from pain and stiffness.

Cognitive behavioral therapy (focuses on helping you develop ways to

manage your illness) is another form of treatment that can be

helpful. Stress reduction and a healthy lifestyle are also

important.

What is the difference between fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue

syndrome?

Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) and FM have many similarities. In

fact, it is not uncommon for a person to have both conditions. Some

experts believe that the two conditions are variations of the same

disorder. Both CFS and FM have pain and fatigue as symptoms.

The main symptom of CFS is extreme fatigue. CFS seems to often begin

following an episode of flu-like symptoms. People with CFS only do

not have the tender points that people with FM have. The criteria

for diagnosing CFS are chronic fatigue for at least 6 months plus 4

or more other typical CFS symptoms such as muscle pain, headaches,

sore throat, tender lymph nodes, problems with thinking, and sleep

problems.

What research is being done on fibromyalgia?

Researchers are studying the ways that the nervous system, the

endocrine (hormonal) system, and the adrenal glands interact in FM

patients. Studies have shown that abnormally low levels of the

hormone cortisol (made by the adrenal glands) may be associated with

FM. People whose bodies make too little cortisol have many of the

same symptoms as people with FM.

Other researchers are looking at how specific brain structures are

involved in the painful symptoms of FM. Scientists are studying the

causes of a post-Lyme disease syndrome as a model for FM. Some

patients develop a FM-like condition following Lyme disease, an

infectious disorder associated with arthritis and other symptoms.

Another area of research is related to behavioral factors in FM. It

is hoped that these studies will increase understanding about FM and

may suggest new ways to treat the disorder.

For more information…

For more information about Fibromyalgia by contacting the National

Women's Health Information Center at or contact the

following organizations:

National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskeletal and Skin

Diseases

Phone Number(s): or

Internet Address: http://www.niams.nih.gov

American Autoimmune Related Diseases Association

Phone Number(s): Literature Requests,

Internet Address: http://www.aarda.org

American College of Rheumatology

[Guest guest]

Hi Gentle,

One thing I would suggest is checking into Suze Orman and her advice.

$15,000 might be enough for a down payment but don't forget closing

costs and money for upkeep/repairs on your house.

Louise

> The thing is, we are trying to save $15,000 for a downpayment on a

> house (we are moving to Ohio in about 16 months and hope to buy a

> house then) so it would be very hard to afford a doctor AND a

> house...

>

> I'm doing so very well on my own, though, that I kind of think I

> don't really need a doctor's help to be honest...

>

> In fact my bladder pain from IC is lessening each day....and I

> stopped taking my Elmiron again....just to see if the thyroid

> medicine has fixed my bladder again...

>

> The only thing a doc could do for me that I can't do for myself, is

> to do TSH etc. on me. And I am kind of going by the advice of Dr.

> Lowe who says to listen to my body and not the labs...so really I

> think labs are pretty useless in my case. Dr. Lowe believes that

> those of us who have fibromyalgia need larger than normal doses of

> Armour, to the point where our labs would look " bad " to a regular

> doc anyway..but that is the only way we can be free of the

> fibromyalgia pain.

>

> So I think my strategy now is to just monitor myself for signs of

> hyper (none so far) and keep listening to my body and responding to

> what my body seems to want...

>

> Gentle

[Guest guest]

--- In NaturalThyroidHormones , " gentleone772002 "

> The only thing a doc could do for me that I can't do for myself, is

> to do TSH etc. on me. And I am kind of going by the advice of Dr.

> Lowe who says to listen to my body and not the labs...so really I

> think labs are pretty useless in my case. Dr. Lowe believes that

> those of us who have fibromyalgia need larger than normal doses of

> Armour, to the point where our labs would look " bad " to a regular

> doc anyway..but that is the only way we can be free of the

> fibromyalgia pain.

>

> So I think my strategy now is to just monitor myself for signs of

> hyper (none so far) and keep listening to my body and responding to

> what my body seems to want...

>

> Gentle

What you are doing is fine, Gentle...doctor used to go by how you

feel before the testing every came into being...my doctor has not

tested any of my thyoid levels for SIX YEARS...we might test next

time I go see him, because I am curious...but no...you really don't

need a doc as long as you are well educatd about what you're doing

and go by how you feel..you have all of us to bounce your questions

off of if anything seems to change...I agree a doctor for thyroid is

not a necessity as long as you can get what you need without one.

[Guest guest]

>

> What you are doing is fine, Gentle...doctor used to go by how you

> feel before the testing every came into being...my doctor has not

> tested any of my thyoid levels for SIX YEARS...we might test next

> time I go see him, because I am curious...but no...you really

don't

> need a doc as long as you are well educatd about what you're doing

> and go by how you feel..you have all of us to bounce your

questions

> off of if anything seems to change...I agree a doctor for thyroid

is

> not a necessity as long as you can get what you need without one.

>

Thanks, ! That's what I was thinking....docs did just fine

before labs ever came into being...it's the labs in fact that caused

docs to stop treating patients or undertreat them. I would say, lab

results are our enemy, not our friend...

Gentle

[Guest guest]

> Hi Gentle,

> One thing I would suggest is checking into Suze Orman and her

advice.

> $15,000 might be enough for a down payment but don't forget

closing

> costs and money for upkeep/repairs on your house.

> Louise

>

Hi, Louise, we should do that, thanks....

we do have a (slight) advantage over some others in that we have two

VA loans available to us (both of us are veterans).

And we are planning on having a very comfortable mortgage, one which

we can pay comfortably while also paying taxes and upkeep/repairs

(unless the repairs are horribly extensive, in which case almost

anyone not rich would be suffering...)

DH is in line to be promoted to Lieutenant Colonel next year so we

should be in fairly secure financial shape by then...not rich, no

one in the Army is rich, but in good enough shape to be able to

afford a modest home I think. The VHA is less in Ohio, not nearly

as much as here in DC, but I still think he'll be pulling in about

90,000 a year even so as an LTC. And I can try to get some little

job to help pay for a bit too. We're not looking at any luxury

home, just a starter home really and we'll have it evaluated before

we buy of course...Too bad I'm not still in the Army...two active

duty soldiers together, each earning VHA etc. don't do too badly

generally.

Gentle

[Guest guest]

> Gentle,

> my official diagnosis is fibromyalgia/cfs. I read now that some

docs regard this as a 'wastebasket' diagnosis and I tend to agree.

I had thyroiditis (hyper) and was told by the endo that eventually

my thyroid would burn itself out and I would become hypo, I did not

have any of these fibro pains until 5 years ago and by then I also

had all the other symptoms that come with being hypo.

> I seem to have a resistance to a higher dose of armour but am

hoping to overcome this by treating my ferritin level first. I am

hoping that when I can get on to a higher dose it will help the

fibro pain as well.

> Lynda

Hi, Lynda, I suspect that fibromyalgia/CFS is just a fancy name

for " hypothyroidism " LOL! But getting docs to agree...sigh...

It's funny, but this Dr. Lowe guy says we fibro/CFS people have

higher " resistance " to Armour and we need almost frighteningly high

levels of T-3 in order to get better. Don't know if it's true, but

I've read some of his stuff on the internet and it seems like it

COULD possibly be true at least.

I don't know, maybe I'm not cautious enough, but I agree with the

idea that docs should give the dose of Armour that finally gets rid

of the symptoms, no matter how high that dose is (as long as no

hyper symptoms come about.) That maybe they shouldn't have a pre-

set limit like, " I only prescribe up to two grains for a patient.. "

I tend to be anemic too, all my blood tests always show my RBC count

low so I need to start taking some iron supplements too I think.

Hopefully we both will get more healthy with time and the right

vitamins and medicines.

Gentle

[Guest guest]

> So, is there anyone on this board who had severe fibro pains when

they first started out and now have no pain since reaching the

optimum dose of armour?

>

> Lynda - keeping my fingers crossed

ME! the only thing is, I was also on a 5 year protocol for a chronic

fatigue organism...and my fibro didn't leve me totally until I

completed that...but yes..Armour should get rid of or greatly reduce

your fibro and pain....depends if you have any other factors

conrtibuting...but mostly, I believe fibro is due to hypothyroid...or

shall we say, thyroid..hyper also seems to cause it in a much more

acute way. .

[Guest guest]

> ,

> can you tell us what the five year protocol consisted of?

> My doc seems to think that anti-depressants and/or painkillers will

help - they don't!

> Lynda

I will send it to you privately, Lynda....I had a rather obscure

cause of chronic fatigue whihc I was tested for, not a virus, but a

bacterium that acts as a retovirus and takes over the cells and

organs and eventually leads to death...it was a cocktail of

antibiotics and some supplements..a doctor/researcher/head of

microbiology at Vanderbilt University here in the US, found it and

came up with a cure for it. It was still experiemental when I went

thru it. this doctor found that roughly 1/2 of the people he tested

who had chronic fatigue had this organism as the cause...the others,

he could not help. He found the organism implicated in lupus, and MS

among other things.

[Guest guest]

> ,

> can you tell us what the five year protocol consisted of?

> My doc seems to think that anti-depressants and/or painkillers will

help - they don't!

> Lynda

Lynda - I sent the info to this group, because I don't have your

private e-mail address....before I was treated for this, I tried so

many other things, all of which gave me a little relief...hydrogen

peroxide and vitamin C IV's, of course, mega vitamins for 30+ years,

DHEA, adrenal glandulars, accupressure and chinese herbs, Armour

thryoid...but as I found out later, this isn't a matter of

strengthening yourself and fighting a virus...it is a bacterium that

tkes over your cells and organs and scoops out your mitochondia and

replaces it with its own DNA...you become a farm for it to replicate

itself...and eventually it leads to death if left untreated...I want

to include something else Dr. Stratton wrote about the c.pneumoniae

organism.

http://www.thecompounder.com/diseasechlamydia2.html

[Guest guest]

> > So, is there anyone on this board who had severe fibro pains

when

> they first started out and now have no pain since reaching the

> optimum dose of armour?

> >

> > Lynda - keeping my fingers crossed

>

>

>

> ME! the only thing is, I was also on a 5 year protocol for a

chronic

> fatigue organism...and my fibro didn't leve me totally until I

> completed that...but yes..Armour should get rid of or greatly

reduce

> your fibro and pain....depends if you have any other factors

> conrtibuting...but mostly, I believe fibro is due to

hypothyroid...or

> shall we say, thyroid..hyper also seems to cause it in a much more

> acute way. .

Not sure if I should include myself in this, my fibro pains (outside

of my bladder I mean) were only mild (usually could be relieved with

high doses of Motrin) but since taking Armour the aches and pains

have gone away completely.

I also had a problem with my feet hurting. Not plantar fascitis

(although I did have that a couple of years ago but stretching got

rid of it) but more of a sense that the bones in my feet hurt...very

odd sensation. Not a " bruised " feeling like you get if you stand

too long in one place all day...just a...weird sensation of my feet

aching in the bones. I couldn't wear high heels at all. Since

being on Armour, I can wear high heels again and my feet don't hurt

(unless I wear the heels too long).

Gentle