Re: Got the Armour!

February 11, 2004

Hey Debbie! I am so happy that you got what you wanted!! You went in well

informed and forarmed!! Good for you! I don't know what I would do with the

isocort hon...it is your call afterall it is you that will be feeling the

effects, not your doc.

Blessings

Loriann

> Seems like there's more to tell, but I left home at nine this am and

> just got back at eight. I will be gone all day tomorrow, so may not get

> back online until tomorrow night or thursday morn.

>

> See ya'll then.

> Again, Thanks for the crossed fingers and the prayers!

> Debbie K.

>

February 11, 2004

Yes! I think this is the thing to do...no guesswork...just lab work and then

act according to your own body.

> Why don't you just have your doctor measure your free T3 and free T4

> levels? If you have a relative deficiency of T3, then you can take a

> desiccated product (such as Armour) or some synthetic T3 with

> synthetic T4 in the T3/T4 ratio that is optimal for YOU.

>

February 11, 2004

Hi Debbie,

Wednesday, February 11, 2004, 3:41:09 PM, you wrote:

DK> I also cut and pasted the part on Bev's

DK> thyroid adrenal site that tells about the New England Journal of

DK> Medicine Study that proved armour better than synthroid.

Bev needs to fix her site.

As far as I know, there is NO study in the NEJM (or any other

peer-reviewed publication) that compares Armour with any of the

synthetic medications. The NEJM study evaluated 1) thyroxine (T4)

versus 2) thyroxine plus a small amount of triiodothyronine (T3).

Although this study suggested that the combination treatment was

preferable, two subsequent studies concluded that there was no

significant difference in clinical status.

February 11, 2004

Oops! Thanks ! Guess I should go straight to the sources and

check them for myself.

Re: Got the Armour!

Hi Debbie,

Wednesday, February 11, 2004, 3:41:09 PM, you wrote:

DK> I also cut and pasted the part on Bev's

DK> thyroid adrenal site that tells about the New England Journal of

DK> Medicine Study that proved armour better than synthroid.

Bev needs to fix her site.

As far as I know, there is NO study in the NEJM (or any other

peer-reviewed publication) that compares Armour with any of the

synthetic medications. The NEJM study evaluated 1) thyroxine (T4)

versus 2) thyroxine plus a small amount of triiodothyronine (T3).

Although this study suggested that the combination treatment was

preferable, two subsequent studies concluded that there was no

significant difference in clinical status.

February 11, 2004

>

> Here's the link to the New England Journal of Medicine article that

> compared T4 with T4 + T3:

>

> http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/340/6/424

Thank you for this, ! Dr. Mercola's website talked about this

but he made it sound like they compared Armour to synthetic.

I've been reading up on 's Syndrome - I think it was known as

sick euthyroid syndrome before he put his name on it - the theory is

that some people have a hard time converting T-4 to T-3. So while

they might have a normal TSH and even normal T-4 level, they might

not have normal free T-3 levels. I wonder if this is just a far-

fetched theory or if there might be any validity to it?

I read that in order to convert T-4 to T-3 properly, a person had to

have enough selenium, zinc, iron and other nutrients, and that

something amiss with the adrenal system (low cortisol levels for

instance) could also interfere with T-4 to T-3 conversion.

This Dr. claims that some people can be cured of this problem

by changes in diet, and support with proper nutrients. I'm planning

to buy zinc and Vitamin C tomorrow (I have the rest of the

supplements already and am taking them). I wonder if a deficiency

in diet/nutrients could cause a person to have a sluggish T-4 to T-3

conversion?

He treats some patients with only T-3 (but in a time-release formula

to avoid cardiac problems) claiming that this depletes the store of

RT3 and sort of " resets " the system so that it can function properly

again after a month or two of only T-3 supplementation. So that

thyroid medicine might not be needed for life, only to " reset " the

system. It sounds very interesting but I don't know if it has any

validity or not.

Gentle

February 11, 2004

Hi Gentle,

Wednesday, February 11, 2004, 4:55:15 PM, you wrote:

g> Thank you for this, ! Dr. Mercola's website talked about this

g> but he made it sound like they compared Armour to synthetic.

I've found other inaccuracies at his site.

g> I've been reading up on 's Syndrome - I think it was known as

g> sick euthyroid syndrome before he put his name on it - the theory is

g> that some people have a hard time converting T-4 to T-3. So while

g> they might have a normal TSH and even normal T-4 level, they might

g> not have normal free T-3 levels. I wonder if this is just a far-

g> fetched theory or if there might be any validity to it?

For some people, his theory probably is valid.

g> I read that in order to convert T-4 to T-3 properly, a person had to

g> have enough selenium, zinc, iron and other nutrients, and that

g> something amiss with the adrenal system (low cortisol levels for

g> instance) could also interfere with T-4 to T-3 conversion.

I have read about those co-factors, too.

g> This Dr. claims that some people can be cured of this problem

g> by changes in diet, and support with proper nutrients. I'm planning

g> to buy zinc and Vitamin C tomorrow (I have the rest of the

g> supplements already and am taking them). I wonder if a deficiency

g> in diet/nutrients could cause a person to have a sluggish T-4 to T-3

g> conversion?

Why don't you just have your doctor measure your free T3 and free T4

levels? If you have a relative deficiency of T3, then you can take a

desiccated product (such as Armour) or some synthetic T3 with

synthetic T4 in the T3/T4 ratio that is optimal for YOU.

g> He treats some patients with only T-3 (but in a time-release formula

g> to avoid cardiac problems) claiming that this depletes the store of

g> RT3 and sort of " resets " the system so that it can function properly

g> again after a month or two of only T-3 supplementation. So that

g> thyroid medicine might not be needed for life, only to " reset " the

g> system. It sounds very interesting but I don't know if it has any

g> validity or not.

Alternatively, Dr suggests that one can take a small amount of

T3 every 3 hours to keep the blood levels relatively stable. That's

the way I take it.

g> Gentle

February 11, 2004

> Hi Gentle,

>

> I've found other inaccuracies at his site.

G) I'm disappointed that he had this inaccuracy. I was really

impressed with him before this.

>

> For some people, his theory probably is valid.

>

>>

> Why don't you just have your doctor measure your free T3 and free

T4

> levels? If you have a relative deficiency of T3, then you can

take a

> desiccated product (such as Armour) or some synthetic T3 with

> synthetic T4 in the T3/T4 ratio that is optimal for YOU.

G) I've asked roughly a dozen different Army doctors (mostly

psychiatrists and primary care physicians) over the last 8 years to

do this for me and was told only the TSH was necessary. They also

refuse to do a thyroid antibody test on me despite the fact that my

mother was diagnosed with Hashimoto's and I had a positive ANA test

earlier (was being tested for rheumatoid arthritis because I had

severe swelling in my knees and couldn't walk at that point). The

doctor failed to inform me of the positive ANA test, and by the time

the mistake was caught by another doc the next year, my ANA test was

then negative. I have asked to be retested but my current PCP says

the positive ANA was probably just because I have IC and IC patients

often have positive ANA tests so it's meaningless.

G)I probably should have asked my husband to pay for tests out of

pocket, but I felt guilty that I'm not working (stopped working

because of IC) and not contributing to the family income. The

Armour I can afford just by saving up from the grocery money so I

don't have to ask him for extra money for it. I know that's a

really lame excuse.

G)I think I will be able to get a doctor to monitor me now that I'm

taking Armour...I'm hoping my uro will order at least a TSH test for

me anyway, although I think TSH tests don't tell the whole story. It

probably seems strange that I would ask my uro but he's the first

Army doc I've come across in the last several years that I feel

cares about me as a patient. He's the only one I feel I can talk to.

G)I think it might be Army-wide policy not to do anything other than

a TSH unless the TSH is out of range. I know there is a sign on

our lab, where they draw blood, that says something to the effect

of, T-3 and T-4 tests will not be run unless the TSH is out of

reference range. It's a shame, too, because I'll bet the Army is

spending tons of money on medicine that might not be needed if

hypothyroid conditions were spotted more often and treated.

G) I feel way better since I've been taking Armour but I can't

discount a placebo response so I just have to wait and see I guess

if it will keep working for me. I hope it will because I don't

think I can handle going back to feeling lousy again, I just don't

want to go back there anymore.

>

> Alternatively, Dr suggests that one can take a small amount

of

> T3 every 3 hours to keep the blood levels relatively stable. That's

> the way I take it.

G) That sounds like a good idea - maybe taking the smallest tablets

and dividing them up further by cutting them. But aren't you

worried about losing bone mass from taking T-3? Or does that only

happen if it's too much T-3 instead of the right dose of T-3?

>

> g> Gentle

>

February 11, 2004

> Although this study suggested that the combination treatment was

> preferable, two subsequent studies concluded that there was no

> significant difference in clinical status.

Which is the major fallacy of our so-called modern approach to

thyroid treatment. Studies, doctors and medical established forget

that symptoms are FAR more indicative of whether something is

working.

Janie aka ThyroDiva

February 11, 2004

> > Although this study suggested that the combination treatment was

> > preferable, two subsequent studies concluded that there was no

> > significant difference in clinical status.

>

> Which is the major fallacy of our so-called modern approach to

> thyroid treatment. Studies, doctors and medical established forget

> that symptoms are FAR more indicative of whether something is

> working.

>

> Janie aka ThyroDiva

I'm not sure I understand what they mean by clinical status - do

they mean lab work, symptoms, or both? I agree that symptoms ought

to be important.

I remember with one Army doc, I came in with a list of hypo

symptoms, and I had checked most of the boxes (including the fact

that I have never had a baby but I have been continually lactating

since my late teens). Many of these things, he could easily verify

by looking at my records - low temp, low pulse rate, edema,

lactation - but many others were subjective and I can understand why

he might doubt me about those.

He didn't even bother looking at my records or examining me. He

told me " symptoms don't matter, only lab work " and gave me a

referral to a psychiatrist. Which I took, because I was depressed.

But the antidepressants I tried never worked for me, even when I

tried high doses of them and various combinations of them. When I

took thyroid, my depression went away like a miracle. That in

itself was enough to make me fall in love with Armour.

Anyway, if I live to be one hundred years old, I will never forget

him saying, " symptoms don't matter. " Pftt! They matter to ME!

Gentle

February 11, 2004

>But aren't you worried about losing bone mass from taking T-3? Or

does that only happen if it's too much T-3 instead of the right dose

of T-3?

Gentle, folks are finding that their bone mass increases on optimal

doses of Armour, which includes high amounts of T3. Even Dommisse

mentions that in his interview.

Janie

February 11, 2004

> Anyway, if I live to be one hundred years old, I will never forget

> him saying, " symptoms don't matter. " Pftt! They matter to ME!

Doctor successfully treated thyroid patients by symptoms alone with

Armour for around 80 years before the TSH came into existence!!

Janie

February 11, 2004

>

> Gentle, folks are finding that their bone mass increases on

optimal

> doses of Armour, which includes high amounts of T3. Even Dommisse

> mentions that in his interview.

>

> Janie

But what if a person is taking synthetic T-4 and Cytomel? I worry

that the T-3 then would cause bone loss because there wouldn't be

the calcitonin to off-set it. I guess they could prescribe T-4,

Cytomel and calcitonin, but then you'd be getting awfully close to

Armour at that point....so you'd have to wonder, why not just take

Armour?

Gentle

February 11, 2004

> > Anyway, if I live to be one hundred years old, I will never

forget

> > him saying, " symptoms don't matter. " Pftt! They matter to ME!

>

> Doctor successfully treated thyroid patients by symptoms alone

with

> Armour for around 80 years before the TSH came into existence!!

>

> Janie

This is what baffles me the most. WHY did they decide to ignore

symptoms and focus only on TSH, if the old system was working just

fine? It doesn't make sense to me. Did they have a bunch of people

with increased morbidity/mortality on Armour the old way, or

something? Usually there is a reason things happen, and I'm trying

to figure out why there was such a radical change when the TSH came

into being.

The one thing I keep coming back to is marketing. Armour doesn't

market, doesn't have the budget to, but Synthroid has tons of

money. And doctors just like any other human being are susceptible

to marketing, am I right? And Synthroid has the market on both TSH

tests and synthetic T-4 production.

Gentle

February 11, 2004

ARGH! I think my post got lost in the shuffle. Have been anxiously

awaiting input. Oh well, I'll go take a shower then check back in. Oh

I am so thrilled to have the Armour!!!!!!!!!!

Debbie

Got the Armour!

I sent this last night, but haven't seen it go through. Am anxious for

your responses:

Thanks to all who crossed their fingers and for the prayers! I got my

Armour today!!! I know this is going to be long, but I've just got to

report.

If you remember doc's reservations about armour were consistancy of dose

and that she had no experience prescribing it. She wanted me to wait a

month on increased synthroid, meanwhile she promised to read stuff I

took her. But I found out about blood pressure and cholesterol not

being a problem with people taking armour so I went back today after

only two weeks. I was on BP and Cholesterol meds. I took a

cut-and-paste of armours faq web page showing answers to her concerns

including the conversion chart. I also cut and pasted the part on Bev's

thyroid adrenal site that tells about the New England Journal of

Medicine Study that proved armour better than synthroid.

I am currently (for the last two weeks) on 125mcg synthroid. I told her

how much better I was taking meds on an empty stomach and if she would

agree to give me armour, we could bump it down to the equivalent of

100mcg which is 1 grain because I was getting more out of it.

She reluctantly agreed!!! Said I'd be her guinea pig. I told her that

was fine with me and if it worked she'd have people beating down her

door. ;-) She said if not, she could tell anyone else that wants

armour that she knows from experience, only quacks prescribe that. ;-)

She then agreed to let me go off blood pressure medicine and cholesterol

medicine to give the armour a chance to take care of that.

She asked me not to start the Isocort until I'd had a month on the

armour b/c it's not good to start two new things at once. Wouldn't know

which was benefiting me. I don't think my adrenals are really really

bad so I agreed on the condition I could get the armour.

Lastly, I told her I'd just read another really interesting article,

Shomon's interview with Dr. Derry abt TSH being worthless. I told

her if she'd read it, I'd pay her for her time. ;-). That I thought

it'd take her about half an office visit so I'd give her half her

counsult fee. [[[[[grin]]]]]] She said " Oh, I'll read it! " like she

really was interested and told her assistant she'd better charge me for

an extra hour with all the stuff I'd given her. [[[[[[more grins]]]]]

We teased a little more and ended the visit on a good note.

Now my delima: I am so tempted to take the isocort anyway. I'd just

taken my first dose about six this am and didn't have a hot flash until

10:15am. Was running around town all day and left it at home so never

got the second dose. But I've only had 3 " warm " flashes all day and

it's 9pm. Could it be the isocort? Maybe I should do as she says

except for once in a while, take it and see how the on days compare to

the off days so I can report that to her when I go back. What would

you all do?

Seems like there's more to tell, but I left home at nine this am and

just got back at eight. I will be gone all day tomorrow, so may not get

back online until tomorrow night or thursday morn.

See ya'll then.

Again, Thanks for the crossed fingers and the prayers!

Debbie K.

Blessings,

Debbie K.

February 11, 2004

Hi Janie,

Wednesday, February 11, 2004, 6:00:39 PM, you wrote:

>> Although this study suggested that the combination treatment was

>> preferable, two subsequent studies concluded that there was no

>> significant difference in clinical status.

l> Which is the major fallacy of our so-called modern approach to

l> thyroid treatment. Studies, doctors and medical established forget

l> that symptoms are FAR more indicative of whether something is

l> working.

l> Janie aka ThyroDiva

These 3 studies (see links below) DID evaluate symptoms. On the scales

that were used, only one of the three detected significant symptomatic

improvement.

There were other problems with them. The main problems that I see with

ALL of them follow:

(1) No attempt was made to titrate the dose to optimize the response.

The authors assumed that the amount of T3 substituted for T4 would be

optimal - neither too low nor too high - for ALL subjects.

(2) The T3 should have been administered every 3 hours or in a

sustained-release form.

(3) The subjects selected for these studies should have been people

who had persisting symptoms of hypothyroidism despite " normal "

laboratory values of TSH, free T3, and free T4. What does it prove if

one finds no (or minimal) improvement with the combined T3/T4 therapy

in patients who had NO symptoms of hypothyroidism at the start of the

study?

If T4 by itself helps 95% of all people who are hypothyroid (this is a

hypothetical), then these studies will not identify the 5% of patients

who could be helped. Their improvement will be averaged in with the

lack of improvement in the majority and no overall significant effect

will be observed.

Positive Study:

(1) http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/340/6/424

In this study 12.5 mcg of T3 was administered once a day.

Negative Studies:

(1) http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/88/10/4543

In this study 10 mcg of T3 was administered once a day to *depressed*

subjects.

(2) http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/88/10/4551

In this study 12.5 mcg of T3 was administered twice a day.

February 11, 2004

These are great - the third study seemed the best, to me, but it

still had the question of if that dose was best for each patient or

not...

But for those who claim to feel better on Armour or else T-4/T-3

than on T-4 alone...is the effect only placebo? Or is there a

chance that we just don't know everything yet, that further studies

might show a more positive response to t-3?

Gentle

February 11, 2004

Hi gentleone772002,

Wednesday, February 11, 2004, 5:53:32 PM, you wrote:

g> G) I feel way better since I've been taking Armour but I can't

g> discount a placebo response so I just have to wait and see I guess

g> if it will keep working for me. I hope it will because I don't

g> think I can handle going back to feeling lousy again, I just don't

g> want to go back there anymore.

You have to give it time. The cognitive symptoms are the *last* ones

to improve. Depending on the degree of hypothyroidism and the length

of time you were hypothyroid, it could take months before you

completely resolve the cognitive symptoms.

February 11, 2004

About.com has alot of info about all the recent studies on the

benefits of T3.

Louise

PS If T3 was purely a placebo you wouldn't have books that go into

all the warnings about it.

> These are great - the third study seemed the best, to me, but it

> still had the question of if that dose was best for each patient or

> not...

>

> But for those who claim to feel better on Armour or else T-4/T-3

> than on T-4 alone...is the effect only placebo? Or is there a

> chance that we just don't know everything yet, that further studies

> might show a more positive response to t-3?

>

> Gentle

February 11, 2004

> You have to give it time. The cognitive symptoms are the *last*

ones

> to improve. Depending on the degree of hypothyroidism and the

length

> of time you were hypothyroid, it could take months before you

> completely resolve the cognitive symptoms.

I'll try to not lose hope if I have some days that aren't so great.

So far, the difference in mood and energy levels especially are

incredible, but I know myself well enough to know that some of this

might be because I'm just hoping so hard it will make me better.

I don't seem to be harming myself (so far) by taking 2 grains of

Armour a day. I am monitoring myself (temp, pulse, b/p, checking

for hand tremors, etc.) daily and so far so good, no signs of

hyperthyroidism. I'll stop and go to the ER if I get any signs of

increased pulse or palpitations or anything like that.

I'm encouraged that for the last two nights, I have not had any

bladder pain. This has been the first two nights in a few years I

could say that, and I think it might be due to the thyroid medicine

helping. A friend on the IC Network says there is a theory that

some IC cases are actually peripheral neuropathy caused by

undetected hypothyroidism, and that patients can improve if the

situation is corrected soon enough. I might be one of those lucky

patients!

Thank you again,

Gentle

February 11, 2004

Oh, Debbie, I am so thrilled for you!!! YES!!! She sounds like a

great doctor - I think you should keep her!

I know how tempting it is to want to start the ISOCORT too..but just

think, if you do take it now you'll never know if it was ISOCORT or

thyroid helping you, you know? And wouldn't it bug you not to know?

I am so happy for you, I think you are going to start feeling better

and better very soon!

Gentle

> ARGH! I think my post got lost in the shuffle. Have been

anxiously

> awaiting input. Oh well, I'll go take a shower then check back

in. Oh

> I am so thrilled to have the Armour!!!!!!!!!!

> Debbie

>

> Got the Armour!

>

> I sent this last night, but haven't seen it go through. Am

anxious for

> your responses:

>

> Thanks to all who crossed their fingers and for the prayers! I

got my

> Armour today!!! I know this is going to be long, but I've just

got to

> report.

>

> If you remember doc's reservations about armour were consistancy

of dose

> and that she had no experience prescribing it. She wanted me to

wait a

> month on increased synthroid, meanwhile she promised to read stuff

I

> took her. But I found out about blood pressure and cholesterol not

> being a problem with people taking armour so I went back today

after

> only two weeks. I was on BP and Cholesterol meds. I took a

> cut-and-paste of armours faq web page showing answers to her

concerns

> including the conversion chart. I also cut and pasted the part on

Bev's

> thyroid adrenal site that tells about the New England Journal of

> Medicine Study that proved armour better than synthroid.

>

> I am currently (for the last two weeks) on 125mcg synthroid. I

told her

> how much better I was taking meds on an empty stomach and if she

would

> agree to give me armour, we could bump it down to the equivalent of

> 100mcg which is 1 grain because I was getting more out of it.

>

> She reluctantly agreed!!! Said I'd be her guinea pig. I told her

that

> was fine with me and if it worked she'd have people beating down

her

> door. ;-) She said if not, she could tell anyone else that wants

> armour that she knows from experience, only quacks prescribe

that. ;-)

>

> She then agreed to let me go off blood pressure medicine and

cholesterol

> medicine to give the armour a chance to take care of that.

>

> She asked me not to start the Isocort until I'd had a month on the

> armour b/c it's not good to start two new things at once.

Wouldn't know

> which was benefiting me. I don't think my adrenals are really

really

> bad so I agreed on the condition I could get the armour.

>

> Lastly, I told her I'd just read another really interesting

article,

> Shomon's interview with Dr. Derry abt TSH being worthless. I

told

> her if she'd read it, I'd pay her for her time. ;-). That I

thought

> it'd take her about half an office visit so I'd give her half her

> counsult fee. [[[[[grin]]]]]] She said " Oh, I'll read it! " like

she

> really was interested and told her assistant she'd better charge

me for

> an extra hour with all the stuff I'd given her. [[[[[[more

grins]]]]]

>

> We teased a little more and ended the visit on a good note.

>

> Now my delima: I am so tempted to take the isocort anyway. I'd

just

> taken my first dose about six this am and didn't have a hot flash

until

> 10:15am. Was running around town all day and left it at home so

never

> got the second dose. But I've only had 3 " warm " flashes all day

and

> it's 9pm. Could it be the isocort? Maybe I should do as she says

> except for once in a while, take it and see how the on days

compare to

> the off days so I can report that to her when I go back. What

would

> you all do?

>

> Seems like there's more to tell, but I left home at nine this am

and

> just got back at eight. I will be gone all day tomorrow, so may

not get

> back online until tomorrow night or thursday morn.

>

> See ya'll then.

> Again, Thanks for the crossed fingers and the prayers!

> Debbie K.

>

> Blessings,

> Debbie K.

>

February 11, 2004

Oh well, see ya'll tomorrow {