Re: Married PTs and Vacation Problems

[Guest guest]

Hello all,

I have enjoyed the discussion, interesting to see the responses from

the two sides. It immediately makes us all think: employee vs.

employer, manager vs. staff, but I think we may actually be dealing

with more of a generational gap situation. I was reading an article

in a local business magazine this afternoon. It talked about the

role our respective generations play in the way we deal with

authority and with each other. They defined a generation by the

core values that develop during its members' formative years-

generally from birth to early twenties. I dont know for sure but I

would bet that the couple in question in the original post, the

married PT's, belong to the Millenial generation (born 1982 to

present) These Millennials grew up with episodes of school

violence, 9/11, omnipresent high tech and were the most heavily

supervised children in American history. The article describes this

generation's attributes as being overly dependent on their parents,

having a sense of entitlement, being tech savvy, collaborative and

charitable. People of this generation were never told no, they

never lost at anything, everybody got trophies, they didnt have to

play dodge ball. They dont want to be told that they have to pay

their dues. Unlike me, a Generation Xer who would have never have

thought to take a job with my wife because, hey, we would never be

able to take vacations together, a Millenial will say, yes we will

take this job together and yes we will take our vacations together.

Why not, they have never been told they couldnt. As a generation,

they think differently than some of us who have been in the

profession a bit longer. I would be interested to hear from some of

you in the Academic world. My understanding is that learning what

works when trying to motivate Millenial students is one of the

greatest challenges you face. Clinical Instructors? Same story.

Anyone care to share?

E. s, PT, DPT

Orthopedic Clinical Specialist

Fellow American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists

www.douglasspt.com

> >

> > >

> >

> > > I have been asked to post this for a member - for obvious

reasons

> >

> > > Please respond to the list - not to me personally as I am not

the

> >

> > writer of

> >

> > > this posting

> >

> > > ==============

> >

> > >

> >

> > > I'm a department administrator at a small, rural hospital with

two

> >

> > > outpatient rehab clinics. One clinic in the smaller town has

one PT

> &

> >

> > two

> >

> > > PTAs and the other clinic in the larger town has two PTs and

four

> >

> > PTAs.

> > 0A>

> >

> > > Last year we hired two PTs (a married couple) and placed one

of them

> >

> > at each

> >

> > > clinic. We already had one full-time staff PT and were able to

> replace

> >

> > two

> >

> > > contract/travelers.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > When their one-year employment anniversary arrived, our " new "

PTs

> >

> > asked to

> >

> > > have their paid vacation increased from 10 days to 15 days. We

> agreed

> >

> > to

> >

> > > this request with 2 stipulations... the first is that they

don't

> take

> >

> > more

> >

> > > than 1 week off at a time, and the second is that they can

only take

> 2

> >

> > of

> >

> > > the 3 weeks off concurrently. They rejected stipulation #2 as

they

> >

> > want to

> >

> > > be able to take all three weeks off together. I realize this

should

> >

> > have

> >

> > > been negotiated at or before the time of hire but

unfortunately it

> >

> > wasn't.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Because we're a small department, our practice has always been

that

> >

> > only one

> >

> > > person at a time can have scheduled vacation. When one PTA

takes

> time

> >

> > off,

> >

> > > that leaves 8 clinicians to absorb his or her patients. When

one PT

> >

> > takes

> >

> > > vacation, some of his patients may be able to be moved to a

PTA, but

> >

> > it

> >

> > > still falls on the remaining PTs to take over evals and

supervision

> of

> >

> > PTAs

> >

> > > (including reassessments/DCs, etc).

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Since PTs remain in very short supply (especially in rural

areas),

> we

> >

> > > generally try to give our therapists whatever they ask for. At

the

> >

> > same

> >

> > > time, we try to look out for the best interest of our patients

and

> the

> >

> > > business as a whole. From a20pure business standpoint, our

married

> PT

> >

> > couple

> >

> > > probably shouldn't be permitted to take any simultaneous

vacation

> >

> > time… but

> >

> > > then again I can understand where they're coming from in their

> >

> > request. I'd

> >

> > > like to ask the listserv for some input on this dilemma…

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Question #1: If you hired a married PT couple at your clinic,

would

> >

> > you let

> >

> > > them have all or some of their scheduled vacation together? Do

you

> >

> > normally

> >

> > > allow multiple employees to be off at the same time for

scheduled

> >

> > vacation?

> >

> > > If so, how large is your staff?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Question #2: If you were in my shoes with 3 PTs and 6 PTAs to

cover

> 2

> >

> > > outpatient clinics, would you give in to this request or would

you

> >

> > stand by

> >

> > > the previous decision (and risk losing both of them)?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts & comments.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

[Guest guest]

,

I think you have touched on a critical point in hiring, managing, and retention.

There are a lot of books and articles being written on the Gen Y issues. We

include a section on differences in hiring with this generation in our

recruiting in-service.

Gen Baby Boomer – Gen (keeping up with the ) – Gen X (MTV) –

Gen Y(Internet) – Upcoming Homeland Gen (who knows what that will mean).

Attitudes are different in younger due to their upbringing and expectations

placed on them. You can see trends such as the Gen Y does not automatically

respect the boss, they think the boss has to earn their respect. Another trend,

newer generations expect to start near the top (anyone noticed there is a lot of

compression in our salary structures) or receive the top rewards quickly.

Generation Y has a lot of great qualities you can work with (adaptable, tech

savvy, efficient, etc); but, you should also define key requirements on the

front end with them (and expect a debate on unreasonable ones).

Times change and the Gen X merges toward Gen Y qualities; but, you can still see

some of their core generalities. This same discussion actually mirrored a

recent one we had in this room on dress code. A simplified work/life summary

would be: Baby Boomer = Work to Live / Gen X = Live to Work / Gen Y = Balance

Work & Life.

Steve Passmore PT

CEO Healthy Recruiting Tools

spass@...

www.HealthyRecruiting.com <http://www.healthyrecruiting.com/>

" What we did for you yesterday is history.... What can we do for you today "

From: PTManager [mailto:PTManager ] On Behalf Of

s

Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 6:49 PM

To: PTManager

Subject: Re: Married PTs and Vacation Problems

Hello all,

I have enjoyed the discussion, interesting to see the responses from

the two sides. It immediately makes us all think: employee vs.

employer, manager vs. staff, but I think we may actually be dealing

with more of a generational gap situation. I was reading an article

in a local business magazine this afternoon. It talked about the

role our respective generations play in the way we deal with

authority and with each other. They defined a generation by the

core values that develop during its members' formative years-

generally from birth to early twenties. I dont know for sure but I

would bet that the couple in question in the original post, the

married PT's, belong to the Millenial generation (born 1982 to

present) These Millennials grew up with episodes of school

violence, 9/11, omnipresent high tech and were the most heavily

supervised children in American history. The article describes this

generation's attributes as being overly dependent on their parents,

having a sense of entitlement, being tech savvy, collaborative and

charitable. People of this generation were never told no, they

never lost at anything, everybody got trophies, they didnt have to

play dodge ball. They dont want to be told that they have to pay

their dues. Unlike me, a Generation Xer who would have never have

thought to take a job with my wife because, hey, we would never be

able to take vacations together, a Millenial will say, yes we will

take this job together and yes we will take our vacations together.

Why not, they have never been told they couldnt. As a generation,

they think differently than some of us who have been in the

profession a bit longer. I would be interested to hear from some of

you in the Academic world. My understanding is that learning what

works when trying to motivate Millenial students is one of the

greatest challenges you face. Clinical Instructors? Same story.

Anyone care to share?

E. s, PT, DPT

Orthopedic Clinical Specialist

Fellow American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physical Therapists

www.douglasspt.com

> >

> > >

> >

> > > I have been asked to post this for a member - for obvious

reasons

> >

> > > Please respond to the list - not to me personally as I am not

the

> >

> > writer of

> >

> > > this posting

> >

> > > ==============

> >

> > >

> >

> > > I'm a department administrator at a small, rural hospital with

two

> >

> > > outpatient rehab clinics. One clinic in the smaller town has

one PT

> &

> >

> > two

> >

> > > PTAs and the other clinic in the larger town has two PTs and

four

> >

> > PTAs.

> > 0A>

> >

> > > Last year we hired two PTs (a married couple) and placed one

of them

> >

> > at each

> >

> > > clinic. We already had one full-time staff PT and were able to

> replace

> >

> > two

> >

> > > contract/travelers.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > When their one-year employment anniversary arrived, our " new "

PTs

> >

> > asked to

> >

> > > have their paid vacation increased from 10 days to 15 days. We

> agreed

> >

> > to

> >

> > > this request with 2 stipulations... the first is that they

don't

> take

> >

> > more

> >

> > > than 1 week off at a time, and the second is that they can

only take

> 2

> >

> > of

> >

> > > the 3 weeks off concurrently. They rejected stipulation #2 as

they

> >

> > want to

> >

> > > be able to take all three weeks off together. I realize this

should

> >

> > have

> >

> > > been negotiated at or before the time of hire but

unfortunately it

> >

> > wasn't.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Because we're a small department, our practice has always been

that

> >

> > only one

> >

> > > person at a time can have scheduled vacation. When one PTA

takes

> time

> >

> > off,

> >

> > > that leaves 8 clinicians to absorb his or her patients. When

one PT

> >

> > takes

> >

> > > vacation, some of his patients may be able to be moved to a

PTA, but

> >

> > it

> >

> > > still falls on the remaining PTs to take over evals and

supervision

> of

> >

> > PTAs

> >

> > > (including reassessments/DCs, etc).

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Since PTs remain in very short supply (especially in rural

areas),

> we

> >

> > > generally try to give our therapists whatever they ask for. At

the

> >

> > same

> >

> > > time, we try to look out for the best interest of our patients

and

> the

> >

> > > business as a whole. From a20pure business standpoint, our

married

> PT

> >

> > couple

> >

> > > probably shouldn't be permitted to take any simultaneous

vacation

> >

> > time… but

> >

> > > then again I can understand where they're coming from in their

> >

> > request. I'd

> >

> > > like to ask the listserv for some input on this dilemma…

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Question #1: If you hired a married PT couple at your clinic,

would

> >

> > you let

> >

> > > them have all or some of their scheduled vacation together? Do

you

> >

> > normally

> >

> > > allow multiple employees to be off at the same time for

scheduled

> >

> > vacation?

> >

> > > If so, how large is your staff?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Question #2: If you were in my shoes with 3 PTs and 6 PTAs to

cover

> 2

> >

> > > outpatient clinics, would you give in to this request or would

you

> >

> > stand by

> >

> > > the previous decision (and risk losing both of them)?

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts & comments.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Wade,

While that may be true were talking about the USA here. As

mentions, what about the fact that patient care may suffer during this time

off event? Its not that easy to have contractors in your practice either.

Just curious, do you manage a practice?

Joe Ruzich, PT

Pueblo, CO

_____

From: PTManager [mailto:PTManager ] On Behalf

Of Wade

Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 4:18 PM

To: PTManager

Subject: Re: Married PTs and Vacation Problems

" I personally don't know of any physicians who have taken a month at a

time off... "

You need to qualify this with " in America " . Don't blame " selfish "

employees, look at the current system. Plenty of health care folks take

4 to 6 weeks off at a time in other countries. I have relatives in

Canada and England who work in health care, they take long vacations to

travel around visiting other countries. Have a plan to hire contractors

to cover vacations. Patients can be treated and employees can take long

vacations. I do know of a MD who found locum coverage for his practice

so he could find some time to take his wife and kids on a much needed

adventure - a cross country bicycle tour. His life was much better for it!

Wade, PT

OR

We are the ones being selfish when we don't allow employees an

appropriate balance

L Proffitt wrote:

>

> Don't all fire at once, but shouldn't there be a difference in

> expectations for professional people who handle the health care of

> others? What are the patients to do if their therapist is gone for a

> month? Should their care have to be transferred to another therapist

> who will likely have some lag time in getting up to speed on their

> care? I personally don't know of any physicians who have taken a month

> at a time off unless it is for personal health reasons or for

> volunteering to provide medical care overseas, etc... If we are to

> move toward a doctoring profession, we can't have it both ways. I

> don't think we can have the 9-5 hours of a bank teller plus 1 month of

> vacation when we have assumed the responsibility to be a primary

> health care provider.

>

> Proffitt, PT

> Massillon, OH

>

[Guest guest]

I have a very small practice that incorporates an RN and a RD, will be

adding OT services soon.

My point is that we all define " professionalism " differently. I knew an

orthopedic surgeon who was very professional, highly skilled and sought

after by patients. He decided that he needed to redefine his life and

perception of being a professional. In the process he and his wife

changed their lifestyle and he worked 3 days a week and significantly

cut his income. He wanted to have " retirement along the way " .

As far as being in the USA, we all need to make our own judgments about

how we want to practice - professionalism aside. If you want to allow

more time off than it would need to be factored in the budget to allow

for prn help. I can't quote statistics off the top of my head, but it

has been shown that the average French worker at 35 hours per week and 6

weeks vacation a year is more productive than their American counterpart.

What makes an employee more productive and loyal to a company? It would

be interesting to see how much revenue would be generated from a PT that

has more freedom with flexible scheduling and longer vacation times. If

there was an increase, would that be enough to offset contract help?

Would it be worth it for employee loyalty? How many times have you

overheard a therapist exclaiming " YES! " when they found out a patient

has canceled. A loyal employee would call the patient and discuss why

they are missing their appointment, I have done this many times and

probably about 40% of the time I can get them to come in. They usually

have a complaint of being in " too much pain today " . I assure them that

if they come in we will work on pain reduction and they will leave in

less pain. I did this when I was an employee at a hospital based

outpatient clinic with a progressive manager that allowed flexible

scheduling and worked with employees to take long vacations to travel.

There was a lot of employee loyalty.

I have a quote somewhere about the " professional " MD's and what they go

through to get where they are. It usually is not without long term use

of stimulants and a toll on their own health. Someone made a statement

comparing our profession with that of MD's:

/ " I personally don't know of any physicians who have taken a month at a

time off unless it is for personal health reasons or for volunteering to

provide medical care overseas, etc... If we are to move toward a

doctoring profession, we can't have it both ways. " /

Personally I do not think we should be moving our profession in the same

direction of MD's, rather redefine " professional " .

I also understand your reputation is at risk when a contractor comes in

and does not live up to the high standard we all set for our clinics.

But if your employees aren't happy, they will leave to find a job that

suits them. Maybe there is a compromise that can be made that is

win-win for employer and employee.

Wade, PT

OR

Joe Ruzich wrote:

>

> Wade,

>

> While that may be true were talking about the USA here. As

> mentions, what about the fact that patient care may suffer during this

> time

> off event? Its not that easy to have contractors in your practice either.

> Just curious, do you manage a practice?

>

> Joe Ruzich, PT

>

> Pueblo, CO

>

> _____

>

[Guest guest]

As a DPT/MBA/PhD with 15 years experience, sometimes clinician, sometimes

supervisor (who is married to another DPT that I've occasionally worked with

in the same health system, if not same clinic, over the years) I have

followed this conversation closely. I find this conversation to have been

somewhat inappropriately one-sided, with the primary focus upon loyalty that

the employees should feel toward the employer, with charges of

" unprofessionalism " should the employee fail to see the hardships imposed

upon the employer should a married couple take vacation together.

In my personal experience, I have never had a problem with this. My wife

and I, when we have worked together, are generally able to plan vacations at

least 6 months in advance, and our employer has more than ample time to

adapt. Recognizing the stresses caused to our employer, and our patients,

we rarely (if ever) have taken more than a week off together. Still, I

wouldn't expect that, given sufficient lead time, that any employer, past or

present, good or sleazy, would have had a problem with one to two weeks (of

52) taken together. Three weeks together annually may be pushing it for

some . . . but given sufficient lead time, and not taken that way on an

annual basis, most of our prior employers would have been able to work

something out.

This brings me to consideration of " should the manager risk losing the

employees " or " should the manger stick to his/her guns " question. As

someone who has sat on both sides of this fence (personally and

professionally), and as someone who teaches business management coursework

in an MBA program . . . were I the employee, I'd have to ask myself if I

wanted to continue working for said employer should I be given grief about

exercising my earned benefits. Sure, we can wax philosophical about

professionalism to and fro, but this misses the point . . .

Healthcare is a dynamic industry and managers/leaders must adapt to a

rapidly changing environment on an ongoing basis. An employee given grief

about a situation PREDICTABLE by the manager upon hire, and PREDICTABLE up

to a year in advance of the event, would and should be given cause to

consider the competence of said manager/leader to successfully predict and

adapt to UNANTICIPATED events in a rapidly changing environment. For me

personally, THIS would be the reason to at least consider new employment . .

.. not any personal slight, but lack of confidence on my part as an employee,

upon the competence and professionalism on the part of the

supervisor/manager.

Dr. M. Ball, PT, DPT, PhD

Physical Therapist

[Guest guest]

Wade,

I have no issue with anyone who decides that they want to alter

their lifestyle to reduce stress and improve their overall well

being. The question becomes, who is going to pay for this life of

leisure? The books have to balance, you cant have a staff of happy

employees if you cant afford to pay their salaries. You cant pay a

prn person more than you get reimbursed for their services. If the

employee and employer decide and agree on terms of paid time off vs.

leave of absence prior to hire than each side has the opportunity to

determine the feasability of the agreement.

E. s, PT, DPT

Orthopedic Clinical Specialist

Fellow of the American Academy of Orthopedic Manual Physcal

Therapists

www.douglasspt.com

-- In PTManager , Wade wrote:

>

> I have a very small practice that incorporates an RN and a RD,

will be

> adding OT services soon.

>

> My point is that we all define " professionalism " differently. I

knew an

> orthopedic surgeon who was very professional, highly skilled and

sought

> after by patients. He decided that he needed to redefine his life

and

> perception of being a professional. In the process he and his

wife

> changed their lifestyle and he worked 3 days a week and

significantly

> cut his income. He wanted to have " retirement along the way " .

>

> As far as being in the USA, we all need to make our own judgments

about

> how we want to practice - professionalism aside. If you want to

allow

> more time off than it would need to be factored in the budget to

allow

> for prn help. I can't quote statistics off the top of my head,

but it

> has been shown that the average French worker at 35 hours per week

and 6

> weeks vacation a year is more productive than their American

counterpart.

>

> What makes an employee more productive and loyal to a company? It

would

> be interesting to see how much revenue would be generated from a

PT that

> has more freedom with flexible scheduling and longer vacation

times. If

> there was an increase, would that be enough to offset contract

help?

> Would it be worth it for employee loyalty? How many times have

you

> overheard a therapist exclaiming " YES! " when they found out a

patient

> has canceled. A loyal employee would call the patient and discuss

why

> they are missing their appointment, I have done this many times

and

> probably about 40% of the time I can get them to come in. They

usually

> have a complaint of being in " too much pain today " . I assure them

that

> if they come in we will work on pain reduction and they will leave

in

> less pain. I did this when I was an employee at a hospital based

> outpatient clinic with a progressive manager that allowed flexible

> scheduling and worked with employees to take long vacations to

travel.

> There was a lot of employee loyalty.

>

> I have a quote somewhere about the " professional " MD's and what

they go

> through to get where they are. It usually is not without long

term use

> of stimulants and a toll on their own health. Someone made a

statement

> comparing our profession with that of MD's:

>

> / " I personally don't know of any physicians who have taken a month

at a

> time off unless it is for personal health reasons or for

volunteering to

> provide medical care overseas, etc... If we are to move toward a

> doctoring profession, we can't have it both ways. " /

>

> Personally I do not think we should be moving our profession in

the same

> direction of MD's, rather redefine " professional " .

>

> I also understand your reputation is at risk when a contractor

comes in

> and does not live up to the high standard we all set for our

clinics.

> But if your employees aren't happy, they will leave to find a job

that

> suits them. Maybe there is a compromise that can be made that is

> win-win for employer and employee.

>

> Wade, PT

> OR

>

> Joe Ruzich wrote:

> >

> > Wade,

> >

> > While that may be true were talking about the USA here. As

> > mentions, what about the fact that patient care may suffer

during this

> > time

> > off event? Its not that easy to have contractors in your

practice either.

> > Just curious, do you manage a practice?

> >

> > Joe Ruzich, PT

> >

> > Pueblo, CO

> >

> > _____

> >

>

>

>

>