Re: RE: Subject: DPT designation

[Guest guest]

One aspect of the whole DPT discussion that bears mentioning is the

recommendation to avoid the " double doctor " . The double doctor is the use

of the word " Doctor " preceding an individual's title and then initials

following the title also indicating that the individual has a doctorate of

some sort. Choose before or choose after but choosing both could be

interpreted as pretentious and give the impression of a parvenu.

Physical Therapy

DPT designation

> " I think we all need to use prudence and common sense...and not pretend to

> be something that we are not, but not hide what we are. "

>

> That's a great statement, and I agree, but there is always a tug and pull

> between said common sense humility and promoting the profession, and not

> everyone is going to agree where exactly that line should be drawn. There

> is certainly a disconnect between non-DPT's with experience versus

> entry-level and t-DPT' on this issue. It's funny though, it's usually the

> PT with years of experience that preach humility with respect to the DPT,

> while at the same time touting the value of experience --- which in my

> opinion, is the same thing as touting a degree that really doesn't make

> any difference to the patient nor (at least according to several

> articles), not as much difference in terms of clinical outcomes as we'd

> like to think.

>

> Experience versus the DPT . . .

>

> Why should any of us accept that a patient should have to choose between

> the two? Shouldn't we strive for both?

> Dr. M. Ball, PT, DPT, PhDLake Norman Regional Medical Center

> Vice Chairman - APTA North Carolina Piedmont District

> " Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else. "

> _________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

If we think that MDs are the only doctors, then that's a problem! You

know what? A lot of MDs think of it that way, which should not really

be the case!They are not the only doctors in the medical field!

Furthermore, they are not superior to PTs! I never felt that way

before. I feel MDs and PTs are colleagues in the medical field. It can

be self-image to some, but MDs and DPTs are both doctors. I think

bottom line is self-image and personal preference...

PT to DPT, it should be a personal preference! Some PTs believe they

don't have to go through DPT to prove they are competent and I agree

with them. Being a DPT or not is not a gauge of competency, it's what

you think about yourself. Bottom line is, how you can help your

patients get better, period!

To be called a Dr. and not if you are a DPT, it's personal preference!

There are times it can be more beneficial, especially if you are

working in an outpatient facility and/or private practice. Here again,

it's personal preference. If you are not comfortable like other MDs who

would prefer to be called by their first name, fine. If you are

comfortable to be called a doctor, then great because DPTs are doctors

anyway. Right? They worked hard for it! If they would like to called as

such, it's their preference. If they don't like to be called doctors and

they are DPTs, fantastic! It's their own choice!

Confusing the public? No! In our growing physical therapy profession, we

have to continually educate our patients and the public and that

includes, PTs now becoming DPTs.

Dr. Paris once said, PT's will be known as the primary care physician

for musculoskeletal dysfunctions. I agree! A lot of us are convinced

that this is all part of the growing pains, but I am sure we'll all get

over it!

Gerry Catapang

Gerry Catapang,PT,DPT

www.myownclinicinoneweek.com

" In your greatest adversity lies the seed of your highest achievement

and success!

SUCCESS IS NOT THE ACHIEVEMENT BUT THE ACHIEVING!

--- DPT designation

I work in an acute care hospital where we have a speech pathologist who

has his PhD. He always introduces himself as Dr. Doe. Unfortunately

patients, families and even some of the nursing staff think that he is a

physician. I am constantly getting callers who tell me " The doctor

said... " and they are referring to the speech pathologist. This is

especially difficult when he recommends outpatient speech therapy or a

modified barium swallow study. The patients can not understand why he

write the prescription for these or even for medication.

We had a recent occurrence where a nurse wrote in the chart " Speech MD

present.. " This led to an investigation by PI regarding what an " MD " had

or had not done. There was no MD present just the speech pathologist. I

can't tell you how much explaining was necessary.

And I also found out that his personal checks read " Dr. Doe " . I

don't know any MDs who do that.

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[Guest guest]

Regarding this:

" I find it is more of an educational thing because as health care

professionals we will know what the many designations mean but many times

not the common man or woman. "

Perhaps this post inadvertently synthesized the DPT designation debate.

Needless to say, there is no such thing as a " common man. "

Dave Milano, PT, Director of Rehab Services

Laurel Health System

32-36 Central Ave.

Wellsboro, PA 16901

dmilano@...

DPT designation

Mr. I would say that many of the times when I see Dr. preceding the

person's name and there initials at the end tend to be the doctors who have

to

educate the public because many times patient's only know doctor as the MD.

Below are a list of professions that generally place Dr. in front of there

name as well as there type of doctorate behind there name in advertising

and

on their office doors.

Dr. DO

Dr. DC

Dr. DPM

Dr. OD

Dr. DPT

Many times MD, PHD, DDS do not need to put doctor in front of the name

because the general public will know that they are doctors already. I find

it is

more of an educational thing because has health care professionals we will

know

what the many designations mean but many times not the common man or woman.

When the day comes that the public will know that a physical therapist is a

Doctor then we may not have to place that in the front of our names. This

will

however depend on us and our association as to how we promote the field of

physical therapy.

Dr. Onuwa Terry, PT, DPT

Terry Physical Therapy

1918 E. Parkway

Mission TX 78572

W

F

_www.terrypt.com_ (http://www.terrypt.com/)

[Guest guest]

On the subject of " double doctoring " (e.g. Dr. so and so, PT, DPT), I agree that

looks pretentious and/or a little professionally insecure . . . that said, it

has been quite common for emerging clinical doctoring professions (read

podiatrists, dentists, optometrists, chiropractors) to do so, as if to say

" Yeah, I'm a doctor, but not THAT kind of doctor. " Maybe someday, like DPM's,

DDS's, OD's, and DC's, the public will see DPT and think " Oh yes, that's a

clinical doctoring professional " but we're not there yet. Finally, Dr.

so-and-so, PT, DPT, both allows introduction of oneself as a " doctor " while at

the same time clearing marking oneself as a physical therapist . . . perfectly

in keeping with the APTA's most recent HOD resolution on the subject.

Dr. M. Ball, PT, DPT, PhDLake Norman Regional Medical Center

Vice Chairman - APTA North Carolina Piedmont District

" Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else. "

To: PTManager@...: ONUWA@...: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 10:18:03

-0400Subject: Re: RE: Subject: DPT designation

Dr. Catapang I could not agree with you more in your statement. I have looked

for the proper words to explain but you were able to explain your point very

well. I feel that these are the growing pains that we are experiencing. In 15

years the physical therapist would have been happy with the steps that we took

today. Dr. Onuwa Terry, PT, DPTTerry Physical Therapy1918 E.

ParkwayMission TX 78572W F _www.terrypt.com_

(http://www.terrypt.com/)

[Guest guest]

Regarding this:

" I find it is more of an educational thing because as health care

professionals we will know what the many designations mean but many times

not the common man or woman. "

That post has, neatly and inadvertently, reduced the DPT designation debate

down to one of its essential elements. Needless to say, in the context at

least, there is no such thing as a " common man. "

The suspicion, held by many PTs (and many more outside the profession) that

the DPT is over valued by its owners, is fueled by such sprinklings of

hubris. It is also fueled by the appearance (or reality?) that it is a

narrow achievement. A doctorate implies broad academic achievement, but as

s aptly pointed out in his discussion of English usage, some

pieces seem to be missing.

Dave Milano, PT, Director of Rehab Services

Laurel Health System

32-36 Central Ave.

Wellsboro, PA 16901

dmilano@...

DPT designation

I am sorry but I must comment on this. To use Dr.xxxx DO is a

grammatical error and poor English. If we want to educate the public

about our advanced education, then the appropriate way to do this would

be to write Dr. Osteopath, or DO etc. To use

poor English to " educate the public " sends a different message than what

is intended. If this is important enough to do then please do it

correctly.

s- PT, Cert MDT

Bronson Methodist Hospital

Rehabilitation Educator

sB@...

(269)544-3230 Ext. 218

(269)212-0990 Pager

(269)544-3238 fax

Confidential Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments,

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confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review; use,

disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended

recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all

copies of the original message. "

>>> ONUWA@... 7/6/2006 10:40 AM >>>

Mr. I would say that many of the times when I see Dr. preceding

the

person's name and there initials at the end tend to be the doctors who

have to

educate the public because many times patient's only know doctor as the

MD.

Below are a list of professions that generally place Dr. in front of

there

name as well as there type of doctorate behind there name in

advertising and

on their office doors.

Dr. DO

Dr. DC

Dr. DPM

Dr. OD

Dr. DPT

Many times MD, PHD, DDS do not need to put doctor in front of the name

because the general public will know that they are doctors already. I

find it is

more of an educational thing because has health care professionals we

will know

what the many designations mean but many times not the common man or

woman.

When the day comes that the public will know that a physical therapist

is a

Doctor then we may not have to place that in the front of our names.

This will

however depend on us and our association as to how we promote the

field of

physical therapy.

Dr. Onuwa Terry, PT, DPT

Terry Physical Therapy

1918 E. Parkway

Mission TX 78572

W

F

_www.terrypt.com_ (http://www.terrypt.com/)

[Guest guest]

I suppose I'm a little confused about all of this talk recently about finding a

way to " grandfather in " seasoned and experienced PT's . . . that's what the

transitional programs are all about. There will never be " gifting " of DPT

degrees when so many of the experienced PT's that we're talking about are in

fact currently flocking to transitional DPT programs. We won't sell out the

leaders within our profession in that regard, just to make the others feel more

comfortable.

Dr. M. Ball, PT, DPT, PhDLake Norman Regional Medical Center

Vice Chairman - APTA North Carolina Piedmont District

" Always remember that you're unique. Just like everyone else. "

_________________________________________________________________

Express yourself: design your homepage the way you want it with Live.com.

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[Guest guest]

One area of discussion that I have yet to see much debate on during the DPT

discussion is the lack of prescription writing capabilities even for such

items such as minor X-Rays, Labs, Special Tests, or some of the " safer "

anti-inflammatory medications.

Steve Marcum PT

Kentucky

[Guest guest]

As I understand it, the training for DPT does not involve being able to

" prescribe or order "

Which supports the argument on confusing the public.

DPT - " You need an xray "

Patient - " well ok , go ahead an order it "

DPT - I can't, but I will ask your Doctor to do it "

Patient - " I thought you were a doctor "

DPT - " well I am , but'

You see my point

I am all for the DPT and in fact support and defend it , just use the

designation correctly.

Ron Barbato PT

Corporate Director, Rehabilitation Services

Ephraim McDowell Health

Voice:

Fax:

rbarbato@...

DPT designation

One area of discussion that I have yet to see much debate on during the

DPT

discussion is the lack of prescription writing capabilities even for

such

items such as minor X-Rays, Labs, Special Tests, or some of the " safer "

anti-inflammatory medications.

Steve Marcum PT

Kentucky

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Ron, this is in the direction of how I feel. I want to fully

support the DPT concept. And push in that direction. I need to feel though

that there needs to be more time value added for the patient, to be able to

order up that X-Ray while the patient is there instead of the patient having

to make another office visit somewhere, or wait until another phone call is

made.

Steve Marcum PT

Manual Trigger Point and Dry Needling

Kentucky

>

> As I understand it, the training for DPT does not involve being able to

> " prescribe or order "

> Which supports the argument on confusing the public.

>

> DPT - " You need an xray "

> Patient - " well ok , go ahead an order it "

> DPT - I can't, but I will ask your Doctor to do it "

> Patient - " I thought you were a doctor "

> DPT - " well I am , but'

>

> You see my point

> I am all for the DPT and in fact support and defend it , just use the

> designation correctly.

>

>

> Ron Barbato PT

> Corporate Director, Rehabilitation Services

> Ephraim McDowell Health

> Voice:

> Fax:

> rbarbato@... <rbarbato%40emrmc.org>

>

>

> DPT designation

>

> One area of discussion that I have yet to see much debate on during the

> DPT

> discussion is the lack of prescription writing capabilities even for

> such

> items such as minor X-Rays, Labs, Special Tests, or some of the " safer "

> anti-inflammatory medications.

>

> Steve Marcum PT

> Kentucky

>

>

[Guest guest]

Is anyone finding that payscales have been revised to differentiate the

various degrees held by PT's (e.g.- BS, MS, DPT). So far, we have not

done so. The requirements for most of our positions is to hold a PT

license, therefore, the degree is not the requirement.

Would like to hear others' comments on this- if this could become or

has already become [another] recruiting issue.

Lori Stoddart, OTR

Therapy Manager

Inpatient Rehab Services

Henry Ford Wyandotte Hospital

Lori

>>> DrDrewpt@... 8/7/2006 7:08 PM >>>

Matt,

First off, I'm not at all offended by your comments. The truth is,

outside of teaching a course I don't generally refer to myself as

anything other than " Drew. " The only time a patient ever calls me

" Doctor " is after they've read my business card. If that makes them

comfortable (and it does some), than I'm fine to let them call me

" Doctor. " I'm also careful to explain that not all PT's have

doctorates, and it doesn't mean that I'm going to get them any better

any faster for having a doctorate . . . academic or clinical.

Furthermore, I continue that if they call me " Doctor, " I'm going to have

to call them " Sir " or " Ma'am " . . . which usually gets a laugh.

Your comments bring to light, however, why I personally went for a DPT

after completion of a PhD. As a PT in the clinic, trying to be a

" bridge " between clinical and academic worlds, three things occur to

me:

1. Advice about " DPT arrogance " takes on a different tone when a

novice DPT hears the argument from a t-DPT with experience.

2. It's nearly impossible to judge the DPT without having gone through

the educational experience oneself.

3. Clinical instructors really need to understand the value of the

above two points. We're not going to BE the DPT's of vision 2020, but

we are going to be responsible for TRAINING them in the clinic. It's

hard to do so fully without having taken direct access focused

coursework like differential medical diagnostic screening, or

radiographic imaging. Understanding the culture of the new-grad DPT is

also important.

For these reasons, I urge you to re-consider completion of your own DPT

.. . . it's the experienced DPT's that need to steer the transition of

the profession toward a clinical doctoring profession. We have too few

of them, and I for one fear that the profession may loose it's way if

left to the overwhelming influx of " Doctoring insistent " new graduate

DPT's who may have a few extra courses, but are sorely lacking with

respect to the wisdom of experience with respect not only to patient

care, but to clinical and civic professionalism.

By the way, you'll note that I've changed my signature to make it more

digestable to all . . .

M. Ball, PT, DPT, PhDDoctor of Physical TherapyCharlotte, NC

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[Guest guest]

There are many good points in Dave's reply. Another point to make is

how this could potentially deter people from entering the profession at

all. I've already heard of many cases where students have changed

career paths because of the DPT requirements. It's a huge time and

money committment that some students aren't willing to undertake. The

profession (APTA and others in the profession) needed to come up with

ways to attract students to the profession.

The DPT is a great professional development opportunity but I really

disagree that it should be the minimum requirement to be a PT. This

will definitely add to the already existing shortage of PT's which in

turn will restrict services to patients.

I continue to hear story after story of 6-8 week waits for outpatient

PT services and how hospitals cannot adequatley cover 7 days a week

which is necessary to meet patients needs and to assist with LOS

initiatives.

With declining admissions to PT schools the access to PT services is

only going to get worse. Like Dave was saying, who is thinking about

the patients. What about their need for timely PT services. Patients

have been benefitting from very high quality PT services for many, many

years by people who hold a BS or MS.

Lori Stoddart, OTR

Therapy Manager

Inpatient Rehab Services

Henry Ford Wyandotte Hospital

Lori

>>> dmilano@... 8/7/2006 4:31 PM >>>

Matt,

Thanks for that last post. I thought I would reply to you personally,

and

give you something more to chew on.

I am chagrined by the this move to the DPT because I have not heard a

single

substantive reason why it is necessary. Don't get me wrong, I've heard

all

the arguments about furthering the profession (and the related issues

of

earning more money and more respect). But where is the data showing

that the

DPT is better for patients? The short answer is that that data does

not

exist. Our profession has precious little in the way of outcome data,

and

none at all indicating that patient outcomes would be improved by more

academic education. (And if it's not impolite to say so, it should be

pointed out that the profession of physical therapy has been touting

itself

as optimally effective for years---long before even the thought of a

DPT

degree flickered in the minds of our leaders.) The sad truth is that

the

move to DPT is, by all evidence, all about us---selfish in the worst

sense.

Patients, outcomes, costs... who cares when there's money and glory at

stake? You can see it in the journal articles, the listserve posts,

everywhere. Nobody is talking about the patients, and nobody notices

that

nobody is talking about the patients. Don't get me wrong. I'm not

saying

that it's not possible that this could be a good thing for patients.

I'm

just saying that we don't know. And if we don't know, why are we so

eager to

spend money and other resources on it?

In your post you asked " Is it more to our profession's benefit to

further

ourselves in our profession, or is it more important what people call

us? "

Those are good questions, but I would like us all to step back for a

moment

and ask another, more important question, " Is it important for our

patients? "

Dave

In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's

there

are few. Shunryo Suzuki-Roshi

Dave Milano, PT, Director of Rehab Services

Laurel Health System

32-36 Central Ave.

Wellsboro, PA 16901

dmilano@...

DPT designation

Dr. Catapang I could not agree with you more in your statement. I have

looked for the proper words to explain but you were able to explain

your

point very well. I feel that these are the growing pains that we are

experiencing. In 15 years the physical therapist would have been happy

with

the steps that we took today. Dr. Onuwa Terry, PT, DPTTerry Physical

Therapy1918 E. ParkwayMission TX 78572W F

_www.terrypt.com_ ( http://www.terrypt.

<http://www.terrypt.com/> com/ < http://www.terrypt.

<http://www.terrypt.com/> com/> ) [Non-text portions of this message

have

been removed]

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