Baking soda /Vinegar/ Boric acid/ lactobacillis/ acidophilus/ PH levels A really longggggg one. ;)

[Guest guest]

HI Everyone,

Just trying to play catch up since I've been gone (really missed everyone) and there's no way I could ever catch up on all the mail, (thank you so much for those compliments too, they were great!) ; ) Anyway if this is out of line or already mentioned, I'm sorry, but I see a recent thread on Baking Soda douches or sitz baths, I just wanted to say that for 'me' it was horrible, I never had such extreme pain or burning as when I tried it.

I'm trying to figure all this out myself and believe me can be quite confusing. But just for information as to how important it is to KNOW which treatment to use and how most of us cannot determine this on our own without specific tests I'm going to send this on. I just hope someone isn't using the wrong treatment. *sigh* as for some the baking soda is good, for others not so at all. I hope I can explain this clearly.

Baking soda is a base, (more alkaline) with a PH of 8.5 , while Vinegar is acidic with a PH of 3.. Keep in mind that both ends of the spectrum can burn exceptionally bad, just look at battery acid and then lye. Both very caustic. yet one's an alkaline base (anything above 7 is called basic which is neutral like water) and the other acid. A high PH is alkaline and not acid as one would think.

By the way this is the normal vaginal pH ......3.8 To 4.2..... (avg. 4.)(these are approx.)

pH of representative substances

Substance

pH

Battery Acid

1

Lemon Juice

2

Vinegar

3

Milk

6.5

Baking Soda

8.5

Sea water

8.5

Milk of Magnesia

10.5

Ammonia

12

Lye

13

The use of the Baking soda douches would usually be for those specific 'few' people as it's not very common, and considered a 'miscellaneous vaginitis'... who might have what's called: Doderlein's cytolyis, or CV (cytolytic Vaginosis) and that's basically because they have a high or overgrowth of lactobacilli with a low/normal PH level.. thus you'd use the Baking soda to 'raise' the PH levels or take an antibiotic to do a similiar thing to reduce the bacteria (lactobacilli) YES, Lactobacilli is a bacteria .

This would be one you would "not' want to use the L.acidophilus with either, there's already too much.. keep in mind that Baking soda works like an antibiotic to 'raise' the ph levels. and it's only with this Doderleins or CV that I've seen the Baking soda recommended (not saying it hasn't for other infections just that I've not seen it) and those infections are not that common, but you never know either. *sigh*

With MOST (but NOT the above) bacterial infections you have an 'decrease' of acidophilus lactobacilli ) as well as clue cells AND a HIGH PH level (opposite of above) 4.5 + (too Alkaline), and in that case would want to use the acidophilus or again an antibiotic to restore the PH levels back down to normal or one could even use Vinegar to lower the PH levels. Quite often too many women may confuse a 'bacterial' infection for a yeast infection and so the treatment makes things even worse. *sigh* and of course when we lower the pH levels 'too' much ...then... we're susceptible to yeast.

Candida (yeast)

Vaginal pH is usually normal at (3.8-4.2) in cases of uncomplicated candidiasis (this is also the 'normal' range without Candida.) Candida will show no clue cells, no excessive leukocytes.Vaginal candidiasis occurs more commonly after antibiotic treatment and among women taking oral contraceptives. As I said,Vaginal pH is usually normal in cases of uncomplicated candidiasis. 3.8-4.2 PH.

The presence of fungal elements on Papanicolaou smear is not necessarily indicative of infection; because it could simply represent colonization, treatment is not recommended on the basis of this finding alone because it is normal to have some.

Boric acid (600mg in #1 size gelatin capsules inserted bid per vagina for 10 days) is quite effective several articles state against most strains of Candida.

It seems that typically 'we' would be using the Vinegar rather than Baking soda, to keep our PH levels more acidic..so it seems that it would be good if the PH levels are low eh? so while the Baking Soda can be good for some, without knowing which way you are yourself, it can be more harmful. So sorry, and hope I'm not confusing you more. It just seems like with one (the baking soda) it may be working opposite to what you need. *sigh*..but it sure can be confusing eh?

Bacterial vaginosis (typical) has a 'decrease' in lactobacilli and an elevation of pH (>4.5). (strep or staph are also considered bacterial infections) ('typical' except in those two mentioned above, the cytolitic or the doderlains where the pH is 'low' but its 'still' a bacterial infection but..... there's an 'increase' in Lactobacilli in those and NOT in a typical bacterial infection. These are 'typical' signs of a bacterial infection!

A homogenous noninflammatory discharge (not many WBCs). Vaginal pH >4.5. Clue cells (bacteria attached to the borders of epithelial cells, >20 % of epithelial cells; Fig. 3). Whiff test positive for fishy or musty odor when alkaline KOH solution added to smear. Acidophllis would be ok for most bacterial infections.

How LACTOBACILLIS ACIDOPHILUS WORKS:

Lactobacilli maintain the healthy vaginal ecosystem by at least 3 mechanisms:

Their production of lactic acid maintains a normal vaginal pH of 4.0 (3.8-4.2). This acidic milieu is hostile against the proliferation of the aforementioned potentially pathogenic species. Their production of hydrogen peroxide is toxic to the anaerobic microflora. Their micropili (tiny projections from the cell wall) adhere to receptors on the vaginal epithelial cells, preventing adherence of potential pathogens. The transition from normal toward abnormal, particularly in the case of BV, entails an elevation of pH and a relative shift from a predominance of lactobacilli toward one of pathogenic organisms (mostly coccoid bacteria).

But what happens when there is too much Lactobacilli? Several species of lactobacilli ferment both glycogen and glucose to lactic acid, carbon dioxide, alcohol, formic acid, acetic acid, and hydrogen peroxide. It is these acids that 'cause' the problem. When lactobacilli overgrow, too many acids are produced, causing vulvar irritation and itching

Symptoms of CV usually mimic those of vulvovaginal candidiasis. The most common symptom is itching, but vulvar burning, dysuria, and entry dyspareunia are often present as well. This might be a clue that can help, in that Cyclical and recurrent symptoms typically occur during the luteal phase (last two weeks of cycle) and worsen premenstrually, increasing in intensity and severity until the onset of menses.

Candida (yeast) Vaginal pH is usually normal (3.8-4.2) in cases of uncomplicated candidiasis (this is also the 'normal' range without Candida.) Candida will show no clue cells, no excessive leukocytes, and minimal or no odor as well.

Whoa, I see I've gone on wayyy too long, and clipped and copied from a lot of various sources but I hope it's a little clearer understanding of this and why often we can mistakenly be using the 'wrong' thing, for some excellent article's you might want to check out these sites.

http://www.pslgroup.com/dg/1019da.htm Bacterial vaginosis

http://www.vitanica.com/cytolytic_vaginosis.htm Cytolytic Vaginosis CV

http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/WomensHealth/journal/1997/v02/w293.plourd/w293.plourd.html

(this one is the very best in my opinion) from Womens health J. at Medscape.

I really apologize members for the length of this, but guess I've been gone so long, had to get a lot out of my system, *chuckle* I missed writing, <grin> can you tell? And I know it's so confusing, *sigh* but I just didn't want anyone using the Baking Soda willy nilly if it's NOT what you might need, as I said it was the absolute worse thing for me personally.

Luv ya all and big hugs, whew!! I think I said enough here for the whole month, *chuckle* sorry about that.

Dee~

[Guest guest]

Hi, welcome back! I missed you.

> Baking soda /Vinegar/ Boric acid/ lactobacillis/ acidophilus/ PH

> levels A really longggggg one.

>

> HI Everyone,

>

> Just trying to play catch up since I've been gone (really missed everyone)

> and there's no way I could ever catch up on all the mail, (thank

> you so much

> for those compliments too, they were great!) ; ) Anyway if this

> is out of

> line or already mentioned, I'm sorry, but I see a recent thread on Baking

> Soda douches or sitz baths, I just wanted to say that for 'me' it was

> horrible, I never had such extreme pain or burning as when I tried it.

>

>