Re: TeenScreen hiding in health education programs

[Guest guest]

  ** Wow, Tonya.   Is there a way to get a report on exactly what this film covers?  How old is your daughter now?  Would you be willing to talk to the Health Ed teacher via phone and get her to give you more details without indicating that it's making you homicidal to hear it, lol?  

  I'm going to Google the film right now. 

  Thanks, 

My daughter brought home an " opt-out " form to attend " Nightmare on Puberty St " , a health education theatrical performance. " Opt-out " means that if one does not wish their child to attend, the form must be filled out, signed and returned prior to the performance. Ordinarily, children receive " opt-in " permission forms for school activities, meaning that if they wish to attend, they must complete and sign the forms. Issuing opt-out forms pretty much guarantees more will attend.

This " performance " is sponsored by Kaiser Permanente. That alone ought to raise some red flags.

Excerpt from the form: " Comedy, drama, music, and dance bring to life issues that affect the health of pre-teens: peer pressure and self-esteem, " crushes " and romantic feelings, body changes, depression and thoughts of suicide, violence, and communication with parents and peers. "

Just a heads up that even though we may not hear about TeenScreen, or any other mental screening programs, in the news (mainstream or otherwise), they are still alive and kicking. We must be vigilant, and opt-OUT.

Thanks for your time.

Tonya

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for this link, . I hadn't had a chance to look up this film yet,

but this site was listed on the

opt-out form:

http://www.childrennow.org/index.php/learn/talking_with_kids//first.html

While I don't mind discussion about sex, peer pressure and puberty; depression

and suicidal thoughts absolutely

should not be discussed in schools IMO. Since this is sponsored by an insurance

company, Big Pharma surely

has a hand in it.

From the link you provided, I couldn't see any survey, but did see this review

on the infosheet: " The most relevant

issues in the show for our students were the abstinence and suicide prevention

messages "

– Teacher, Delta Vista Middle School, Oakland

*emphasis mine

Ariel is now 12, and we've had many talks about TeenScreen and she knows all

about my own issues from the

drugs.

I don't think I'd get any more info from calling the school/health ed. person

that isn't available from the link below.

Hoping I'm not being too paranoid here. lol But better safe than sorry in this

situation. :-/

>

> My daughter brought home an " opt-out " form to attend " Nightmare on Puberty

> > St " , a health education theatrical performance. " Opt-out " means that if one

> > does not wish their child to attend, the form must be filled out, signed and

> > returned prior to the performance. Ordinarily, children receive " opt-in "

> > permission forms for school activities, meaning that if they wish to attend,

> > they must complete and sign the forms. Issuing opt-out forms pretty much

> > guarantees more will attend.

> >

> > This " performance " is sponsored by Kaiser Permanente. That alone ought to

> > raise some red flags.

> >

> > Excerpt from the form: " Comedy, drama, music, and dance bring to life

> > issues that affect the health of pre-teens: peer pressure and self-esteem,

> > " crushes " and romantic feelings, body changes, depression and thoughts of

> > suicide, violence, and communication with parents and peers. "

> >

> > Just a heads up that even though we may not hear about TeenScreen, or any

> > other mental screening programs, in the news (mainstream or otherwise), they

> > are still alive and kicking. We must be vigilant, and opt-OUT.

> >

> > Thanks for your time.

> > Tonya

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Forgot to use rich-text editor... meant to emphasize the "suicide prevention messages" part of the review.> >> > Check this out:> > > > http://xnet.kp.org/etp/ncal/shows/nightmare/index.html> >

[Guest guest]

** I don't think you're being paranoid at all, Tonya.  I think you're right on target.  You can be assured there is Pharma $$$ in this...

--C

Thanks for this link, . I hadn't had a chance to look up this film yet, but this site was listed on the

opt-out form: http://www.childrennow.org/index.php/learn/talking_with_kids//first.html

While I don't mind discussion about sex, peer pressure and puberty; depression and suicidal thoughts absolutely

should not be discussed in schools IMO. Since this is sponsored by an insurance company, Big Pharma surely

has a hand in it.

From the link you provided, I couldn't see any survey, but did see this review on the infosheet: " The most relevant

issues in the show for our students were the abstinence and suicide prevention messages "

– Teacher, Delta Vista Middle School, Oakland

*emphasis mine

Ariel is now 12, and we've had many talks about TeenScreen and she knows all about my own issues from the

drugs.

I don't think I'd get any more info from calling the school/health ed. person that isn't available from the link below.

Hoping I'm not being too paranoid here. lol But better safe than sorry in this situation. :-/

>

> My daughter brought home an " opt-out " form to attend " Nightmare on Puberty

> > St " , a health education theatrical performance. " Opt-out " means that if one

> > does not wish their child to attend, the form must be filled out, signed and

> > returned prior to the performance. Ordinarily, children receive " opt-in "

> > permission forms for school activities, meaning that if they wish to attend,

> > they must complete and sign the forms. Issuing opt-out forms pretty much

> > guarantees more will attend.

> >

> > This " performance " is sponsored by Kaiser Permanente. That alone ought to

> > raise some red flags.

> >

> > Excerpt from the form: " Comedy, drama, music, and dance bring to life

> > issues that affect the health of pre-teens: peer pressure and self-esteem,

> > " crushes " and romantic feelings, body changes, depression and thoughts of

> > suicide, violence, and communication with parents and peers. "

> >

> > Just a heads up that even though we may not hear about TeenScreen, or any

> > other mental screening programs, in the news (mainstream or otherwise), they

> > are still alive and kicking. We must be vigilant, and opt-OUT.

> >

> > Thanks for your time.

> > Tonya

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

 http://www.childrennow.org/index.php/learn/talking_with_kids//first.html

<<While I don't mind discussion about sex, peer pressure and puberty; depression and suicidal thoughts absolutely

should not be discussed in schools IMO. Since this is sponsored by an insurance company, Big Pharma surely

has a hand in it.

From the link you provided, I couldn't see any survey, but did see this review on the infosheet: " The most relevant

issues in the show for our students were the abstinence and suicide prevention messages "

– Teacher, Delta Vista Middle School, Oakland

*emphasis mine>>    **  It occurred to me the other day that I have not heard anyone differentiate between suicide attempts and suicide gestures after I had an acquaintance become really upset with me when I asked if her niece's " suicide attempt " was serious.  She asked when a suicide attempt could NOT be serious.  I re-asked, this time asking if it had been an attempt or a gesture.  I got a blank look (except for the annoyance, lol).  

   In my experience, it is not unusual for teenagers, especially females or particularly artistic and sensitive males, to make a one or even a few suicidal gestures as a call for help. Some attention,understanding, and tools for communicating in other ways fixed that.  I can't recall any of these people I've known of to go on to suicide attempts or successful suicide.  

  For those who don't know, the difference between a suicide gesture and attempt is that a gesture could have never resulted in a death.  For instance, the slicing of a  wrist with a razor.   You can't bleed enough this way to die unless you do a really long cut length-wise. Most people using this as a method of communicating a state of mind put some superficial cuts cross-wise.  Another gesture would be to take several pills of something that would require 30+  pills to result in death.   A gesture is a safe way of getting attention and not dying.   An attempt is a serious attempt to take one's life.  This attempt will result in death if not for an intervention of some sort or sheer luck. In any case, both types are basically in need of tools for coping.  

  To put the person who makes a suicide attempt or gesture on a psych drug increases the possibility that they will try this again and, in most cases, in a more serious attempt.  The drugs separate people from the parts of themselves they most need at times like this. 

   I vote to reawaken the concept of gesture vs attempt.Regards,

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry, but as a professional counselor who's worked with teens for 20 years, I have to disagree with the statement that "depression and suicidal thoughts absolutely should not be discussed in schools". Would you have our children deal with these things with NO support? They are already exposed to depression and suicidal thoughts, attempts, and successful suicides, through their friends, families, acquaintances, the media, etc. Talking with them about it doesn't mean that they are immediately given drugs. I am against big pharma even more than the next guy, but that doesn't mean I would support not talking about depression and suicide in schools or anywhere else. Talking about these things is one of the main routes of getting help, it's one of the ALTERNATIVES

to pharmacological intervention. It's called Counseling or therapy.I have not reviewed this performance and am not commenting directly on it. Machado, MFTTo: Withdrawal_and_Recovery Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 12:13:15 AMSubject: Re: TeenScreen hiding in "health education programs" Thanks for this link, . I hadn't had a chance to look up this film yet, but this site was listed on the opt-out form: http://www.childrennow.org/index.php/learn/talking_with_kids//first.html While I don't mind discussion about sex, peer pressure and puberty; depression and suicidal thoughts absolutely should not be discussed in schools IMO. Since this is sponsored by an insurance company, Big Pharma surely has a hand in it. From the link you provided, I couldn't see any survey, but did see this review on the infosheet: "The most relevant issues in the show for our students were the

abstinence and suicide prevention messages" – Teacher, Delta Vista Middle School, Oakland *emphasis mine Ariel is now 12, and we've had many talks about TeenScreen and she knows all about my own issues from the drugs. I don't think I'd get any more info from calling the school/health ed. person that isn't available from the link below. Hoping I'm not being too paranoid here. lol But better safe than sorry in this situation. :-/ > > My daughter brought home an "opt-out" form to attend "Nightmare on Puberty > > St", a health education theatrical performance. "Opt-out" means that if one > > does not wish their child to attend, the form must be filled out, signed and > > returned prior to the performance. Ordinarily, children receive "opt-in" > > permission forms for school activities, meaning that if they wish to attend, > > they must complete and sign the forms. Issuing opt-out forms pretty much > > guarantees more will attend. > > > > This "performance" is sponsored by Kaiser Permanente. That alone ought to > > raise some red flags. > > > > Excerpt from the form: "Comedy, drama, music, and dance bring to life > > issues that affect the health of pre-teens: peer pressure and

self-esteem, > > "crushes" and romantic feelings, body changes, depression and thoughts of > > suicide, violence, and communication with parents and peers." > > > > Just a heads up that even though we may not hear about TeenScreen, or any > > other mental screening programs, in the news (mainstream or otherwise), they > > are still alive and kicking. We must be vigilant, and opt-OUT. > > > > Thanks for your time. > > Tonya > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

So are you saying that schools are the ONLY support available to children/teens?

I know what counseling and therapy are. Schools are for education, academic

education. Counselors and therapists are for emotional support. Depression and

suicidal thoughts should be discussed in a therapy setting. Schools are not

therapy settings. I stand by my previous statement.

Tonya

>

> I'm sorry, but as a professional counselor who's worked with teens for 20

years,

> I have to disagree with the statement that " depression and suicidal thoughts

> absolutely should not be discussed in schools " . Would you have our children

> deal with these things with NO support? They are already exposed to

depression

> and suicidal thoughts, attempts, and successful suicides, through their

friends,

> families, acquaintances, the media, etc. Talking with them about it doesn't

> mean that they are immediately given drugs. I am against big pharma even more

> than the next guy, but that doesn't mean I would support not talking about

> depression and suicide in schools or anywhere else. Talking about these

things

> is one of the main routes of getting help, it's one of the ALTERNATIVES to

> pharmacological intervention. It's called Counseling or therapy.

>

> I have not reviewed this performance and am not commenting directly on it.

>

> Machado, MFT

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm sorry, but as a professional counselor who's worked with teens for 20 years, I have to disagree with the statement that " depression and suicidal thoughts absolutely should not be discussed in schools " .    Would you have our children deal with these things with NO support?  They are already exposed to depression and suicidal thoughts, attempts, and successful suicides, through their friends, families, acquaintances, the media, etc.  Talking with them about it doesn't mean that they are immediately given drugs.  I am against big pharma even more than the next guy, but that doesn't mean I would support not talking about depression and suicide in schools or anywhere else.  Talking about these things is one of the main routes of getting help, it's one of the ALTERNATIVES

to pharmacological intervention.  It's called Counseling or therapy.I have not reviewed this performance and am not commenting directly on it.   Machado, MFT

   Hi ,     The problem is that when this is discussed, children are told that drugs are an option. In fact, most schools take the position that therapy without drugs is ineffective.

    I agree with Tonya.  I don't want anyone telling my child that there are drugs that can allegedly take away unhappiness or be effective in helping with suicidal feelings when, in reality, they cause people to become suicidal.    

  People object to school-taught sex ed.  Nobody asks where a child will get support for this.  Schools are not the only venue of support for children.  Home, extended family, and friends regularly fill this role. I never wanted the school to be everything for my child. Imo, schools are for academics.  I'll take care of my child's health and well-being. I don't think leaving a serious subject like suicide in the hands of other people is the best choice to make. 

-- Regards,

[Guest guest]

Depression and suicidal thoughts should be discussed in a therapy setting. Schools are not therapy settings. I stand by my previous statement.With you completely. I sat with my mouth open that they are actually going to discuss this in a school with 12 year olds. Impressionable 12 year old girls? This would have given me nightmares for months if I'd have been given this at school, I would have been terrified and confused - and I can only imagine the gossip in the playground! Doesn't bare thinking about.There is such a culture of 'oh I fear sad I must be depressed and it must be wrong' that it drives me nuts! Tonya good for you for being such a great Mum to Ariel.Love

[Guest guest]

I never said schools are the ONLY support available, those are YOUR words. Many schools, however, have counselors available, who do see kids in a therapeutic setting on school grounds. In fact, many more kids get therapy this way than in counseling centers, at least in my area. And since the schools can no longer afford counselors, many community service organizations provide Master's level interns to provide these services. At least, that is what I see in the SF Bay Area, California. And these counselors are swamped with kids who have intense, diverse needs, including issues around depression and suicidal thoughts. It would be a shame for a kid to have these issues and not have anyone to talk to about it. And yes, it would be great if they could talk

to their parents, but many kids won't--and many parents wouldn't know what to say if they were approached about this. Would you rather a kid hang himself than talk to a counselor at school? It happens all the time. I stand my my previous statement.To: Withdrawal_and_Recovery Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 7:02:26 PMSubject: Re: TeenScreen hiding in "health

education programs"

So are you saying that schools are the ONLY support available to children/teens? I know what counseling and therapy are. Schools are for education, academic education. Counselors and therapists are for emotional support. Depression and suicidal thoughts should be discussed in a therapy setting. Schools are not therapy settings. I stand by my previous statement.

Tonya

>

> I'm sorry, but as a professional counselor who's worked with teens for 20 years,

> I have to disagree with the statement that "depression and suicidal thoughts

> absolutely should not be discussed in schools". Would you have our children

> deal with these things with NO support? They are already exposed to depression

> and suicidal thoughts, attempts, and successful suicides, through their friends,

> families, acquaintances, the media, etc. Talking with them about it doesn't

> mean that they are immediately given drugs. I am against big pharma even more

> than the next guy, but that doesn't mean I would support not talking about

> depression and suicide in schools or anywhere else. Talking about these things

> is one of the main routes of getting help, it's one of the ALTERNATIVES to

> pharmacological intervention. It's called Counseling or therapy.

>

> I have not reviewed this performance and am not commenting directly on it.

>

> Machado, MFT

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, where I come from "schools" do not recommend drugs. In fact, schools, and teachers, and school personnel around here are afraid to suggest drugs because they might be held to pay for them (as part of a student's special needs). As a counselor, I might mention medications as a possible option, but only after many other routes are pursued. Counselors are not big on drugs as a rule, either. Insurance companies, however, are big on drugs because they are cheaper than counseling and doctor's appts and other treatments. It is debatable whether drugs are more effective. I have never seen counselors who see children in schools be paid by insurance; the school counseling services are free (and therefore not influenced by insurance

companies and pharma) or paid for by MediCal.Counselors who see children in schools do so with their parent's permission, except in crisis situations. No one is forcing you to let your child talk to someone. But I still think that help should be available through having counselors at school for the people who want and need them.To: Withdrawal_and_Recovery Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 7:08:18 PMSubject: Re: Re: TeenScreen hiding in "health education programs"

I'm sorry, but as a professional counselor who's worked with teens for 20 years, I have to disagree with the statement that "depression and suicidal thoughts absolutely should not be discussed in schools". Would you have our children deal with these things with NO support? They are already exposed to depression and suicidal thoughts, attempts, and successful suicides, through their friends, families, acquaintances, the media, etc. Talking with them about it doesn't mean that they are immediately given drugs. I am against big pharma even more than the next guy, but that doesn't mean I would support not talking about depression and suicide in schools or anywhere else. Talking about these things is one of the main routes of getting help, it's one of the ALTERNATIVES

to pharmacological intervention. It's called Counseling or therapy.I have not reviewed this performance and am not commenting directly on it. Machado, MFT

Hi , The problem is that when this is discussed, children are told that drugs are an option. In fact, most schools take the position that therapy without drugs is ineffective.

I agree with Tonya. I don't want anyone telling my child that there are drugs that can allegedly take away unhappiness or be effective in helping with suicidal feelings when, in reality, they cause people to become suicidal.

People object to school-taught sex ed. Nobody asks where a child will get support for this. Schools are not the only venue of support for children. Home, extended family, and friends regularly fill this role. I never wanted the school to be everything for my child. Imo, schools are for academics. I'll take care of my child's health and well-being. I don't think leaving a serious subject like suicide in the hands of other people is the best choice to make.

-- Regards,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

You said:

<< I never said schools are the ONLY support available, those are YOUR words. >>

** Here is what you said in response to Tonya saying she doesn't believe that

schools should be involved in talking about suicide with her daughter:

" Would you have our children deal with these things with NO support? "

** You may not have meant to suggest that school was the only place for

support, but you did.

You said:

<<Many schools, however, have counselors available, who do see kids in a

therapeutic setting on school grounds. In fact, many more kids get therapy this

way than in counseling centers, at least in my area.>>

** I think the operative phrase here is " at least in my area " . My experience

in the Northeast is that most schools have guidance counselors whose jobs are

unclear, and some larger high schools have part time counselor/therapists.

You said:

<<And since the schools can no longer afford counselors, many community

service organizations provide Master's level interns to provide these services.

At least, that is what I see in the SF Bay Area, California. And these

counselors are swamped with kids who have intense, diverse needs, including

issues around depression and suicidal thoughts.>>

** You've just given another great reason for schools not to be tackling this

issue. Master's level interns are woefully under-informed. I spent two years

overseeing an internship program for the largest not-for-profit mental health

provider in NY. The lack of knowledge and ability was stunning. I spent more

time trying to undo what they did poorly than I did doing anything else. One of

the biggest drawbacks with these interns is that virtually all the younger ones

just know they have all the answers when they have absolutely no practical or

life experience. Most are quite arrogant.

You said:

<<It would be a shame for a kid to have these issues and not have anyone to

talk to about it. And yes, it would be great if they could talk to their

parents, but many kids won't--and many parents wouldn't know what to say if they

were approached about this.>>

** I don't buy this at all. Broad, general statements like this are part of

the culture of people who work in groups with children. It is a typical

automatic belief system that people adopt to feel like a part of the group in

which they work. Group think is alive and very real -- and very harmful because

it is usually based upon a false belief system.

These things don't change until trainings are given showing people how this

happens and how to correct it. It most commonly happens because most people are

really uncomfortable being different so they quickly adopt the 'party line' for

the sake of comfort and a sense of belonging. It's also true that different

people are often ostracized in these settings.

The parents are automatically cast in the roles of the ignorant,

non-caring, and neglectful people that are responsible for all of the child's

struggles. This supercilious attitude amongst teachers and counselors in schools

(as well as in counseling agencies)exist also as a dysfunctional way for these

people to feel good about themselves and what they do and to proclaim themselves

devoid of any responsibility for any problems a child may be having. These false

belief systems don't change until people have been shown how it manifests for

their group and how to replace it with a healthy, emotionally honest belief

system.

There is no way that children are more apt to talk about intense things to

interns who cycle in and out of the schools every few months rather than a

parent or relative.

If the schools have evidence that children won't talk to parents (in my

experience this happens only when a child believes s/he will get a poor

reception), they could be helpful by teaching communications skills to children

and parent/teacher organizations could sponsor the same for parents. There

could be evening gatherings for children with their parents with the purpose

being to have a big 'share our concerns fest'. But I still don't think that most

children and most parents woulds fail at finding a way to communicate about

serious matters. The one exception is when a child is abusing drugs and wants

to continue. But these children won't talk to anyone.

You said:

<<Would you rather a kid hang himself than talk to a counselor at school? It

happens all the time. I stand my my previous statement.

>>

** Again, a huge, broad sweeping statement. What you've just said is that

when schools don't discuss suicide, kids kill themselves all the time. This does

not happen " all the time " . Children give many signs of this level of dismay

before acting on it. It's almost unheard of for a child to just do this out of

nowhere. There are usually a few suicidal gestures, too.

I encourage you to take a look at the stats. 98% of children who commit

suicide do so within 3 months of beginning a psychotropic drug, having a drug

changed to another or a drug added, or having a drug decreased or stopped too

quickly. Just to be clear, I'm saying that only 2% of suicides are done by

children not on any psychotropic drug.

I invite everyone to think about your childhood from 1st grade right through

high school or college. How many students committed suicide in your schools?

If you're over the age of 35, very few of you will be able to cite even one

person. However, if you are younger than 35, that figure increases. If you are

in your early 20's this number increases more. This is due to the increase in

the number of children on psychotropic drugs. If you want to prevent most

suicides, keep kids off psychotropic drugs.

Regards,

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

You said:

<<, where I come from " schools " do not recommend drugs. In fact,

schools, and teachers, and school personnel around here are afraid to suggest

drugs because they might be held to pay for them (as part of a student's special

needs). As a counselor, I might mention medications as a possible option, but

only after many other routes are pursued. Counselors are not big on drugs as a

rule, either.

Insurance companies, however, are big on drugs because they are cheaper than

counseling and doctor's appts and other treatments.>>

** Bottom line- if companies want to pay only for drugs, the kid will end up

on drugs.

You said:

<<It is debatable whether drugs are more effective. >>

** It'd not debatable at all. Even the drug companies themselves now admit

that the drugs are " ineffective " in 2/3rds of people. Add to this the 1/3rd who

respond to placebo (proven) and who's left? Of course, they only began admitting

this in order to sell other drugs as add-ons (Seroquel,Zyprexa, Risperdal,

etc.).

The most stunning study done was one that is now a book called The Emperor's

New Drugs. It used all the trials sent to the FDA when drug companies were

seeking approval for the top-selling 6 antidepressants. The evidence is

damning.

As someone who works in a school you should be reading all the latest on this

subject. I posted a list a couple of weeks ago. All of these books have strong

references based in science and all show the lack of efficacy of psychotropic

drugs.

Before you tell me you've seen people improve on these drugs, consider this --

I've seen people who were depressed improve after taking opiates or smoking pot.

Does this make these drugs antidepressants? In other words, any improvement you

see is merely a " side effect " of the drug.

Are you aware that when seeking approval a drug maker does not have to show

the FDA efficacy. They only need to exhibit safety.

You said:

<<I have never seen counselors who see children in schools be paid by

insurance; the school counseling services are free (and therefore not influenced

by insurance companies and pharma) or paid for by MediCal.

Counselors who see children in schools do so with their parent's permission,

except in crisis situations. No one is forcing you to let your child talk to

someone. But I still think that help should be available through having

counselors at school for the people who want and need them. >>

** Optional is fine -- as log as people don't step over the boundaries. One

of the big issues in schools today is them getting away with forcing parents to

give drugs to kids based upon counselors' evaluations by involving CPS when

parents refuse to drug their kids. This, to me, is a really good reason to not

have counselors in schools.

I have a question, why, after all you've experienced, would you even mention

drugs as an option?

Regards,