Re: OT: reporting back about Eckankar (was Lucid Dreaming)

[Guest guest]

On 7/22/07, joanhulvey <joanhulvey@...> wrote:

> We couldn't stop sharing ideas, so after the meeting we spent

> several hours in a Thai restaurant. We talked also about NT and this

> list. Which prompted me to run home and fetch kombucha and starters

> for them (they had never heard about it or Nourishing Traditions).

> One man's response to kombucha was " it tastes like a memory. " Sally

> speaks about fermented foods triggering an ancient collective memory

> in the intro about beverages. Funny, huh?

I would guess that has something to do with the neurotransmitters in

these foods.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Explain in more detail sil vous plait?

--- In , " Masterjohn "

> > One man's response to kombucha was " it tastes like a memory. " Sally

> > speaks about fermented foods triggering an ancient collective

memory

> > in the intro about beverages. Funny, huh?

>

> I would guess that has something to do with the neurotransmitters in

> these foods.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

On 7/23/07, joanhulvey <joanhulvey@...> wrote:

> Explain in more detail sil vous plait?

I'm afraid I don't have much detail to share, only that fermentation

tends to produce a variety of chemicals that can act as

neurotransmitters, such as tyramine, GABA, etc. These could combine

to yield all sorts of " feelings, " and, although feeling like one is

eating or drinking a memory is a little bit out of the ordinary, it

seems to me quite possible that some interaction of any of these

neurotransmitter chemicals could induce certain peculiar feelings,

some of which could possibly be described in the words your friends

used.

On a tangential note that will justify the RELIGION tag if discussion

goes any further (and I am only not using it this time around because

it is an addendum to my non-religious post above), I would be careful,

if one is a Christian, about spiritual experiences, in that, while the

experience of God is not an emotion or even related to emotion, it is

also true that dreams are physiological events, that man is created in

the image of God and therefore can very easily experience himself in

ways that he may mistake for an experience of God, and that even Satan

can disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14), so

that it is absolutely imperative for one having such experiences to

check them against the tradition of such experience handed down from

the times of the early Church. Not commenting on your experience but

just a generalized note of caution.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Your article on the sun and Vitamin D is fascinating especially the

part about the rays in the summer between the hours of 11:00 - 2:00

being the time to let the rays make D in our skin.

Is it possible that every ray at any given time of the day at any time

of the year makes all the other vitamins we need? We evolved pretty

naked and out in the sun all year so you would think the full spectrum

of rays would be of benefit in some way.

My 93 year old father-in-law sits out in the sun whenever he can. His

body craves it. We all crave it.

Are there any studies showing any other vitamins or benefits from

certain rays?

The book " The Healing Sun " told of hospitals that used to be built with

atriums for patients to be in the sun but which are no longer being

built because of the loss of that wisdom.

Have labs looked at skin to see what other vitamins are there? How can

you look at a vitamin? What does that look like in the skin?

Iodine is in the skin I know. It helps you sweat. How can they see

that? You can get iodine just by living near the sea but the rest of us

have to pay huge amounts for Lugol's and August 1 the law will change

to disallow the strength you can get now (5% iodine and 10% iodide) to

2% of I don't know which form.

Any data about the other rays?

Thanks

Parashis

artpages@...

zine:

artpagesonline.com

portfolio:

http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

[Guest guest]

Another chemical that they produce is tryptophan - since tryptophan is what

becomes serotonin it is very integral to happy memories. After getting my

gut back in shape, I am absolutely convinced that the gut is more important

to happiness than the brain.

I love my microbes.

-Lana

On 7/23/07, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

>

> On 7/23/07, joanhulvey <joanhulvey@... <joanhulvey%40>>

> wrote:

> > Explain in more detail sil vous plait?

>

> I'm afraid I don't have much detail to share, only that fermentation

> tends to produce a variety of chemicals that can act as

> neurotransmitters, such as tyramine, GABA, etc. These could combine

> to yield all sorts of " feelings, " and, although feeling like one is

> eating or drinking a memory is a little bit out of the ordinary, it

> seems to me quite possible that some interaction of any of these

> neurotransmitter chemicals could induce certain peculiar feelings,

> some of which could possibly be described in the words your friends

> used.

>

--

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

[Guest guest]

Lana,

> Another chemical that they produce is tryptophan - since tryptophan is what

> becomes serotonin it is very integral to happy memories. After getting my

> gut back in shape, I am absolutely convinced that the gut is more important

> to happiness than the brain.

But you can get tryptophan from anything with protein. It is probably

much more significant that 5-HTP and even serotonin occur in foods.

Especially since these are usually produced in the brain, so having

them in the gut might set up peculiar feelings.

Every once in a while, I get a feeling of nostalgia in my gut -- I

don't know how else to put it, except that it feels like nostalgia,

yet is located in my lower belly. I never quite figured out what

caused it though.

Chris

[Guest guest]

On Jul 24, 2007, at 6:17 AM, Lana Gibbons wrote:

> Another chemical that they produce is tryptophan

Are you talking about fermented products? All of them?

Parashis

artpages@...

zine:

artpagesonline.com

portfolio:

http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

[Guest guest]

Yes some of the organisms in ferments and probiotics produce tryptophan, but

not all of them and not all in the same amounts. When they colonize your

gut they become handy little tryptophan factories. It really matters what

organisms are in the ferment, which isn't that consistent since we don't use

the same time/temperature/acidity/starter for everything. Even kombucha

will vary in organisms depending on where you got your scoby.

The same can be said about anything bacteria are known to produce (such as B

vitamins) - it really depends on exactly what strains are in your ferment.

-Lana

On 7/24/07, Parashis <artpages@... > wrote:

>

>

> On Jul 24, 2007, at 6:17 AM, Lana Gibbons wrote:

>

> > Another chemical that they produce is tryptophan

>

> Are you talking about fermented products? All of them?

>

> Parashis

> artpages@... <artpages%40earthlink.net>

> zine:

> artpagesonline.com

>

> portfolio:

> http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

>

[Guest guest]

5-HTP and serotonin are as much at home in the gut than they are in the

brain - if not moreso since that's where they're concentrated. That's one

of the main reasons I say: " I am absolutely convinced that the gut is more

important to happiness than the brain. "

" Approximately 95% of serotonin (also known as 5-HT), a naturally occurring

neurotransmitter, resides in the GI tract. Serotonin plays major roles in

modulating intestinal movement, modulating perception of pain, and mediating

secretion in the GI tract (ie, release of water, which ultimately helps to

soften stools). Thus, serotonin helps the digestive system function

normally. " (http://www.pharmacytimes.com/article.cfm?ID=355)

" When CCKs are released in response to certain brain mechanisms - eg, the

production and release of serotonin resulting from ingestion of amino acids,

carbohydrates, tryptophan or 5-HTP - a variety of effects occur, including

intestinal and biliary smooth muscle contraction, pancreatic enzyme

secretion, trophic effects on gastric and intestinal mucosa, and appetite

satisfaction. " (http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=75)

" CCKs may have a similarly beneficial effect on memory. Pregnenolone

researchers Flood and Morley have shown that rats fed immediately following

a learning experience retain their learning better than without the feeding,

and that one of the gastrointestinal hormones released is CCK. When CCK is

administered peripherally, the result is the same: learning is enhanced. " (

http://www.life-enhancement.com/article_template.asp?ID=75)

IMHO, getting tryptophan from ferments is just as important as getting it

from protein foods, if not moreso since you are actually trying to " recruit "

the bacteria.

-Lana

But you can get tryptophan from anything with protein. It is probably

> much more significant that 5-HTP and even serotonin occur in foods.

> Especially since these are usually produced in the brain, so having

> them in the gut might set up peculiar feelings.

>

--

" There is nothing more useful than sun and salt. " - Latin proverb

[Guest guest]

On 7/25/07, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> 5-HTP and serotonin are as much at home in the gut than they are in the

> brain - if not moreso since that's where they're concentrated. That's one

> of the main reasons I say: " I am absolutely convinced that the gut is more

> important to happiness than the brain. "

Ah yes, thank you for correcting me.

> IMHO, getting tryptophan from ferments is just as important as getting it

> from protein foods, if not moreso since you are actually trying to " recruit "

> the bacteria.

I wasn't comparing the importance of tryptophan in either type of

food, but the importance of tryptophan to preformed 5-HTP and

serotonin. It seems like tryptophan is quite abundant in food,

whereas the modified forms are not. So the modified forms would be

more significant to our subject -- getting difficult to describe

feelings from certain foods.

Chris

[Guest guest]

What I was trying to say is that when you recruit the microbes that produce

the tryptophan, you also get their associated abilities such as the

production of 5-HTP and serotonin. You can take a 5-HTP and serotonin free

food and ferment it and get 5-HTP and serotonin from that ferment - this can

be done either in a fermenting jar or your own intestines, provided you have

good flora.

I used to get difficult to describe feelings from certain foods - now for

the most part I'm always in that difficult to describe feeling, unless I

distrub my gut balance. The whole thing is quite blissful really... perhaps

even euphoric. I often feel like I have a second consciousness in my gut -

if I wasn't such a trekkie I'm sure I'd be totally grossed out by the

thought of a symbiant, but I was always fascinated by the trill.

-Lana

I wasn't comparing the importance of tryptophan in either type of

> food, but the importance of tryptophan to preformed 5-HTP and

> serotonin. It seems like tryptophan is quite abundant in food,

> whereas the modified forms are not. So the modified forms would be

> more significant to our subject -- getting difficult to describe

> feelings from certain foods.

>

[Guest guest]

You might look into neurogastroenterology, a new field studying the

enteric nervous system. If I'm not mistaken, seratonin and other

neurotransmitters ~are~ created and used in the gut, which is being

termed, more seriously than not, the gut brain. It really makes

sense to me. And it starts to explains " gut feelings. "

For me, someone with significant gut problems -- that are clearly

related to ~both~ nutrition AND to various life stresses -- and

someone whose most reliable analytical faculty is intuition (versus

intellect) -- this is really exciting. It may even explain a

connection between stress and all sorts of problems that don't seem

to be triggered directly by stress, I'm imagining (stress affects the

gut brain, which affects digestion, which affects nutrients ingested,

lack of which or surplus of which can lead to all sorts of diseases

and syndromes.... but this part is my speculation).

I think it's easy to find stuff about this on the web, but this was

the first one I saw:

http://www.psyking.net/id36.htm

-Castaway

PS I belive this is the current theory about why so many

pharmaceuticals (take antidepressants, for example) affect digestion -

- because of the importance of neurotransmitters in the gut

(seratonin, in this case, often causing constipation).

And, a little off-topic, another chemical receptor found (though I

don't think the corresponding chemical has been found yet) in the

brain, and I think in the gut, and with high concentrations in the

uterus, is believed involved in clearing/forgetting accumulated

thoughts & memories. It is this receptor (I don't know the name)

that is now believed to be attached to by THC, thus, the effect of

marijuana on suppressing the emotional pain of the knowledge or

memories of the moment or the day and therefore allowing one to be

more in the moment, disinhibited. The fact that there are a high

concentration of these receptors in the uterus is believed to be an

adaptation to allow for less stressful chilbirths...... I'm a little

foggy on these facts (you'd think I'd been smoking!), but I think I'm

getting across the basics here..... -C

>

> Lana,

>

> > Another chemical that they produce is tryptophan - since

tryptophan is what

> > becomes serotonin it is very integral to happy memories. After

getting my

> > gut back in shape, I am absolutely convinced that the gut is more

important

> > to happiness than the brain.

>

> But you can get tryptophan from anything with protein. It is

probably

> much more significant that 5-HTP and even serotonin occur in foods.

> Especially since these are usually produced in the brain, so having

> them in the gut might set up peculiar feelings.

>

> Every once in a while, I get a feeling of nostalgia in my gut -- I

> don't know how else to put it, except that it feels like nostalgia,

> yet is located in my lower belly. I never quite figured out what

> caused it though.

>

> Chris

>

[Guest guest]

Interesting. Buhner was talking about how we also think with our

heart - that it actually processes things and has associations and

affects our feelings and health (not figuratively the real heart -

its got all kinds of neural tissue and can process things just like

the brain). What I think is that so many of the psychoactive

substances that affect moods acually come from the gut, that

getting " gut feelings " etc. are really real - that food absolutely,

definately affects our mental health. Just look at kids with ADHD or

autism.

I've also gotten high from kimchi, umeboshi, and sauerkraut. It's

wonderful. Like a rush of good feelings and energy and

creativity. OK, think I'll have some now!

>

> What I was trying to say is that when you recruit the microbes that

produce

> the tryptophan, you also get their associated abilities such as the

> production of 5-HTP and serotonin. You can take a 5-HTP and

serotonin free

> food and ferment it and get 5-HTP and serotonin from that ferment -

this can

> be done either in a fermenting jar or your own intestines, provided

you have

> good flora.

>

> I used to get difficult to describe feelings from certain foods -

now for

> the most part I'm always in that difficult to describe feeling,

unless I

> distrub my gut balance. The whole thing is quite blissful

really... perhaps

> even euphoric. I often feel like I have a second consciousness in

my gut -

> if I wasn't such a trekkie I'm sure I'd be totally grossed out by

the

> thought of a symbiant, but I was always fascinated by the trill.

>

> -Lana

>

> I wasn't comparing the importance of tryptophan in either type of

> > food, but the importance of tryptophan to preformed 5-HTP and

> > serotonin. It seems like tryptophan is quite abundant in food,

> > whereas the modified forms are not. So the modified forms would be

> > more significant to our subject -- getting difficult to describe

> > feelings from certain foods.

> >

>

>

>