Re: some conclusions on mineral whole food supplements

[Guest guest]

I don't know about the powdered milk you're looking at but the regular

kind has been dried in a damaging and destructive way. I just read

about it in " The Untold Story of Milk " but have heard it before. It

contains carcinogens.

I've heard that potassium is plentiful in most produce, because it is

one of the big 3 in the fertilizer industry - NPK - Nitrogen,

Phosphorous, and Potassium. So if you eat enough produce you needn't

worry about it.

One thing you may have overlooked in your search for minerals is bone

broth. Google " Broth is beautiful " , it's an excellent article. The

bones from grass-fed, organic animals will contain plenty of the

macrominerals, plus other goodies like glucosamine for good bone

formation.

[Guest guest]

On 7/19/06, Ernst <rachelernst.com@...> wrote:

> I just got a bottle of ConcenTrace, but that's mainly

> for trace minerals.

ConcenTrace is surprisingly high in magnesium, according to the

bottle. I use NOW bone meal powder for calcium and phosphorus, and

just a magnesium citrate for magnesium. I use unrefined sea salt,

fish, and sometimes ConcenTrace for trace minerals. Seaweed is

probably an excellent source as well.

> Something the WAPF website, westonaprice.org, said about chelated

> minerals turned me off from them as a long-term solution. It was

> mainly that the aminos they are chelated with may help too much with

> absorption so that it can be detrimental.

I find it particularly annoying that otherwise great supplements,

like, for example. Dr. Ron's, use aspartate forms of minerals. I

think some of the amino acid chelates might be ok, but I'd rather

avoid minerals chelated to excitotoxins just to be on the safe side.

(The chelated ones were

> recommended on krispin.com) I MIGHT continue for a year just to

> remineralize with Magnesium, therafter continuing with the greenfood,

> because of the good info I read about magnesium on Mercola.com (mainly

> once you are re-mineralized, greenfood supplements are a great way to

> maintain your magnesium stores).

Why bother with the chelates?

I just did a PubMed search, and only one study came up, finding the

magnesium citrate is superior to amino acid chelate:

=======================

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search & DB=pubmed

Published data on the bioavailability of various Mg preparations is

too fragmented and scanty to inform proper choice of Mg preparation

for clinical studies. In this study, the relative bioavailability of

three preparations of Mg (amino-acid chelate, citrate and oxide) were

compared at a daily dose of 300 mg of elemental Mg in 46 healthy

individuals. The study was a randomised, double-blind,

placebo-controlled, parallel intervention, of 60 days duration. Urine,

blood and saliva samples were taken at baseline, 24 h after the first

Mg supplement was taken ('acute' supplementation) and after 60 days of

daily Mg consumption ('chronic' supplementation). Results showed that

supplementation of the organic forms of Mg (citrate and amino-acid

chelate) showed greater absorption (P = 0.033) at 60 days than MgO, as

assessed by the 24-h urinary Mg excretion. Mg citrate led to the

greatest mean serum Mg concentration compared with other treatments

following both acute (P = 0.026) and chronic (P = 0.006)

supplementation. Furthermore, although mean erythrocyte Mg

concentration showed no differences among groups, chronic Mg citrate

supplementation resulted in the greatest (P = 0.027) mean salivary Mg

concentration compared with all other treatments. Mg oxide

supplementation resulted in no differences compared to placebo. We

conclude that a daily supplementation with Mg citrate shows superior

bioavailability after 60 days of treatment when compared with other

treatments studied.

=========================

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 7/20/06, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote:

> I've heard that potassium is plentiful in most produce, because it is

> one of the big 3 in the fertilizer industry - NPK - Nitrogen,

> Phosphorous, and Potassium. So if you eat enough produce you needn't

> worry about it.

I am not very knowledgeble about soil science, but from what I've read

the problem with the NPK fertilizers is that their nitrogen content is

too high. So, you still might not wind up with optimum P and K,

because the N is fueling the growth too fast. And more growth with

less P and K might mean lower P and K concentrations.

This link isn't to demonstrate that point, but it is a useful look at

what affects trace mineral content of foods:

http://www.saltinstitute.org/publications/stm/STM-6.html

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 7/20/06, Ernst <rachelernst.com@...> wrote:

<snip>

> I can't see where anyone eating the Nourishing Traditions diet with

> also maybe a couple of quality SuperFood " supplements " like greenfood

> would be substantially lacking in macro minerals... you know, if

> you're drinking some raw milk or quality yogurt, and if you're taking

> a greenfood, too, and eating organic produce.

<snip>

Hi,

That seems like wishful thinking to me... people who have been brixing

organic produce would certainly disagree. Unless dairy animals are

grazing well-managed (or maybe particularly well-endowed or virgin?)

land what they produce probably isn't as good as we might hope either.

Looking at the quantities of various major minerals in foods today vs

what Price estimated (thanks for that, Chris) shows a pretty big gap.

I wish he had devoted more space to exactly what the people were

eating, as I find it pretty difficult to convince myself I could match

their nutrient content day-to-day.

Why not add bee pollen to the list of worthwhile mineral supplements?

[Guest guest]

On 7/20/06, haecklers wrote:

> I've heard that potassium is plentiful in most produce, because it is

> one of the big 3 in the fertilizer industry - NPK - Nitrogen,

> Phosphorous, and Potassium. So if you eat enough produce you needn't

> worry about it.

I am not very knowledgeble about soil science, but from what I've read

the problem with the NPK fertilizers is that their nitrogen content is

too high. So, you still might not wind up with optimum P and K,

because the N is fueling the growth too fast. And more growth with

less P and K might mean lower P and K concentrations.

This link isn't to demonstrate that point, but it is a useful look at

what affects trace mineral content of foods:

http://www.saltinstitute.org/publications/stm/STM-6.html

Chris

The K, potash is a root growth promoter. Root veggies should have the most

potassium and need the higher K potash fertilizer or hardwood ashes.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

what's wrong w/ aspartates? I don't see any in Calcium/Magnesium

formula? I did see them in his mulivitamin.

lisa

> I find it particularly annoying that otherwise great supplements,

> like, for example. Dr. Ron's, use aspartate forms of minerals.

[Guest guest]

On 7/21/06, lisa_mc_connell <mmlisa2@...> wrote:

> what's wrong w/ aspartates? I don't see any in Calcium/Magnesium

> formula? I did see them in his mulivitamin.

Well aspartate can be an excitotoxin (a neurotransmitter that in

excess can excite neurons to death). Maybe the aspartate is in

sufficiently low quantitiy to not cause problems for most people in

the multivitamin, but I'd be more comfortable consuming one that just

didn't have it.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

I agree with you. There are other forms of minerals, no reason the

aspartate form should be used. I suppose with studies of absorption

rates I would change my mind if aspartate was a standout, but the

only study I've seen for magnesium is the one you posted and that's

an unusual study among minerals. Most don't have that much

research.

The other knawing issue is the glutamine in amino blends. I took a

custom amino acid blend for depression, but the custom blend starts

with a base formulation that includes glutamine. Other aminos are

added based on blood work. It changed my life and I'd do it again

(don't expect to need it), but after swelling up like a watermelon

about two weeks ago in what I suspect was an MSG reaction, you never

know how this stuff will creep up on you.

In defense of Dr. Ron's products -- it is very hard to find a multi

with better forms of these nutrients. There is always *something*

that would be better off replaced with something else.

[Guest guest]

On 7/22/06, galeforcewinds00 <amgrose@...> wrote:

> In defense of Dr. Ron's products -- it is very hard to find a multi

> with better forms of these nutrients. There is always *something*

> that would be better off replaced with something else.

There's a couple other things I don't like I about his multivitamin --

enough for me not to use it -- but it's still the best I've seen so

far.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Wow, i didn't realize that.

i wonder whether dr. ron is aware of this? I may send him an e-mail to

ask him about his rationale in using the aspartate form.

interestingly enough, i ordered his multivitamin but consumed it very

slowly--taking a dose here and there over a period of a year or so--

because i never felt **right** about taking it.

lisa

>

> Well aspartate can be an excitotoxin (a neurotransmitter that in

> excess can excite neurons to death). Maybe the aspartate is in

> sufficiently low quantitiy to not cause problems for most people in

> the multivitamin, but I'd be more comfortable consuming one that just

> didn't have it.

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

On 7/22/06, lisa_mc_connell <mmlisa2@...> wrote:

> i wonder whether dr. ron is aware of this? I may send him an e-mail to

> ask him about his rationale in using the aspartate form.

I have never asked him about it, and I just noticed it the other day

when I was looking at the ingredients. Aspartates are used pretty

widely, but I would prefer, in the absence of other knowledge, to

avoid them until more research is done on the safety of consuming them

with mineral salts at that concentration.

> interestingly enough, i ordered his multivitamin but consumed it very

> slowly--taking a dose here and there over a period of a year or so--

> because i never felt **right** about taking it.

I have not seen any multivitamin yet that I thought was better than

his, but between the aspartates and the high beta-carotene, it's

enough to keep me from buying it. I also wish he used R-ALA instead

of the mixture of R and S, but the fact that he has alpha-lipoic acid

in it at all is more than the average mulitvitamin can claim.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

I don't know a lot about the supplement business, but I am guessing

that his volume isn't high enough to make a custom formula financially

viable. In this case, he would have to look for the best multi that

he can private label. This is probably it. So I don't think he

specifically chose the aspartate forms of minerals, the high

carotenes, or the form of B-12. Taken together, he probably thought

it was the best he could offer his customers given what's available

out there.

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote: On 7/22/06,

galeforcewinds00 wrote:

> In defense of Dr. Ron's products -- it is very hard to find a multi

> with better forms of these nutrients. There is always *something*

> that would be better off replaced with something else.

There's a couple other things I don't like I about his multivitamin --

enough for me not to use it -- but it's still the best I've seen so

far.

Chris

If orthomolecular, metabolic typing and amino acid docs can get compounding

pharmacies or small labs, I'm presuming, to make individualized supplement

formulas then why do we keep hearing of standardized individual ingredients from

top of the line manufacturers and practioners?

Certain portions of multivitamins are better not taken together or are better

empty vs. full stomach, AM vs. PM.

Wanita

[Guest guest]

I hate to admit it but I have not followed this thread. Could someone

tell me what supplement is being discussed here please?

I have my grandson visiting and I am not keeping up with much!

Thanks so much

On Jul 22, 2006, at 3:02 PM, Wanita wrote:

>

>

> Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote: On 7/22/06,

> galeforcewinds00 wrote:

>

> > In defense of Dr. Ron's products -- it is very hard to find a multi

> > with better forms of these nutrients. There is always *something*

> > that would be better off replaced with something else.

>

> There's a couple other things I don't like I about his multivitamin --

> enough for me not to use it -- but it's still the best I've seen so

> far.

>

> Chris

>

> I

[Guest guest]

galeforcewinds00 <amgrose@...> wrote: The other knawing issue is

the glutamine in amino blends. I took a

custom amino acid blend for depression, but the custom blend starts

with a base formulation that includes glutamine. Other aminos are

added based on blood work. It changed my life and I'd do it again

(don't expect to need it), but after swelling up like a watermelon

about two weeks ago in what I suspect was an MSG reaction, you never

know how this stuff will creep up on you.

Glutamine heals your gut, is the most abundant amino acid in your body. Rest

does no good if its leaking into your bloodstream.

Wanita

IMPORTANT ADDRESSES

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[Guest guest]

>

> Glutamine heals your gut, is the most abundant amino acid in your

body.

Good point, but you only need it if you need it. If I have blood work

that shows I don't need it, I'd rather not take it. And actually,

that's the case with any amino IMO.

> Rest does no good if its leaking into your bloodstream.

>

I'm not sure what you mean here.

[Guest guest]

galeforcewinds00 <amgrose@...> wrote:

>

> Glutamine heals your gut, is the most abundant amino acid in your

body.

Good point, but you only need it if you need it. If I have blood work

that shows I don't need it, I'd rather not take it. And actually,

that's the case with any amino IMO.

**With all the sources of getting a leaky gut and the abundance of glutamine

I'd think few don't need it. I'd ask if it doesn't show in your bloodwork. Is it

a precursor to another that is needed from labwork?

> Rest does no good if its leaking into your bloodstream.

>

I'm not sure what you mean here.

**If you've got leaky gut, malabsorb due to improper digestion or are allergic

to any food, your gut leaks the toxins made into your bloodstream.

Wanita

IMPORTANT ADDRESSES

NATIVE NUTRITION online

SEARCH the entire message archive with Onibasu

LIST OWNER: Idol

MODERATOR: Wanita Sears

[Guest guest]

> > Glutamine heals your gut, is the most abundant amino acid in your

> body.

> Good point, but you only need it if you need it. If I have blood work

> that shows I don't need it, I'd rather not take it. And actually,

> that's the case with any amino IMO.

I have to say that after doing research on MSG and finding out that I am

sensitive to free-glutamates after a very scary reaction to them, I think it

would do most people good to avoid them. It's an excitotoxin, regardless of the

source, so I think it wise for people to avoid glutamates in any forms but those

in whole, natural foods. www.truthinlabeling.org has some wonderful information

on it.

How did I become sensitive to glutamates? Leaky gut. Quite interesting it's

recommended for it- I'd like to see any research behind that. I would warn

anyone with leaky gut to stay away from glutamates lest they go through what

I've been through the last three weeks.

KerryAnn

www.cookingNT.com

[Guest guest]

Have you considered Eniva's Vibe, Garden of Life, Thorne, or Metagenics?

lisa

>

> I have not seen any multivitamin yet that I thought was better than

> his, but between the aspartates and the high beta-carotene, it's

> enough to keep me from buying it. I also wish he used R-ALA instead

> of the mixture of R and S, but the fact that he has alpha-lipoic acid

> in it at all is more than the average mulitvitamin can claim.

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

On 7/22/06, lisa_mc_connell <mmlisa2@...> wrote:

> Have you considered Eniva's Vibe, Garden of Life, Thorne, or Metagenics?

> lisa

Eniva appear to be running a multi-level marketing scheme, which is

always a good sign. They even have a triangle there to explain the

whole thing.

Anyway, they don't seem to list the forms of any of the vitamins or

minerals. Do you have a link to a more detailed list?

> > I have not seen any multivitamin yet that I thought was better than

> > his, but between the aspartates and the high beta-carotene, it's

> > enough to keep me from buying it. I also wish he used R-ALA instead

> > of the mixture of R and S, but the fact that he has alpha-lipoic acid

> > in it at all is more than the average mulitvitamin can claim.

> >

> > Chris

[Guest guest]

KerryAnn <krankedyann@...> wrote: > > Glutamine heals your

gut, is the most abundant amino acid in your

> body.

> Good point, but you only need it if you need it. If I have blood work

> that shows I don't need it, I'd rather not take it. And actually,

> that's the case with any amino IMO.

I have to say that after doing research on MSG and finding out that I am

sensitive to free-glutamates after a very scary reaction to them, I think it

would do most people good to avoid them. It's an excitotoxin, regardless of the

source, so I think it wise for people to avoid glutamates in any forms but those

in whole, natural foods. www.truthinlabeling.org has some wonderful information

on it.

How did I become sensitive to glutamates? Leaky gut. Quite interesting it's

recommended for it- I'd like to see any research behind that. I would warn

anyone with leaky gut to stay away from glutamates lest they go through what

I've been through the last three weeks.

KerryAnn

www.cookingNT.com

True, L-glutamine is contraindicated for anyone sensitive to any of it's

components.

http://www.gettingwell.com/drug_info/nmdrugprofiles/nutsupdrugs/lgl_0125.shtml

Could be more than leaky gut. Glutamate high in strep and metals column here

as well as glutamate column

http://www.autismanswer.com/images/MTHFr_Chart.jpg

Wanita.

[Guest guest]

On 7/22/06, galeforcewinds00 <amgrose@...> wrote:

> I don't know a lot about the supplement business, but I am guessing

> that his volume isn't high enough to make a custom formula financially

> viable. In this case, he would have to look for the best multi that

> he can private label. This is probably it. So I don't think he

> specifically chose the aspartate forms of minerals, the high

> carotenes, or the form of B-12. Taken together, he probably thought

> it was the best he could offer his customers given what's available

> out there.

He does have a custom formula. I just talked to him about it, and he

said that he had to make a few compromises here and there to keep the

price under $50 a bottle, because the inclusion of the antioxidants

made it very pricey to have produced. With respect to aspartates, he

said that the amount found in the multivitamin is nowhere near what

you'd get from food alone, so he didn't think that what is to his

knowledge conjecture about dietary aspartate would justify the

increased price he'd have to charge.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 7/22/06, KerryAnn <krankedyann@...> wrote:

> I have to say that after doing research on MSG and finding out that I am

sensitive to free-glutamates after a very scary reaction to them, I think it

would do most people good to avoid them. It's an excitotoxin, regardless of the

source, so I think it wise for people to avoid glutamates in any forms but those

in whole, natural foods. www.truthinlabeling.org has some wonderful information

on it.

Glutamine is NOT an excitotoxin. GlutamATE is an excitotoxin.

Glutamine is also used for an enormous amount of purposes besides

being a neurotransmitter, so I wouldn't conflate research showing

harms of glutamate with glutamine, even though one can be converted

into the other.

I think the safety of glutamine does need to be addressed, but given

that it has pretty serious potential therapaeutic value, I don't think

it can be dismissed based on research with glutamate and synthetic

MSG.

It really bothers me, though, that this research *isn't* being done

(at leas to my knowledge), because I feel like I benefit from taking

glutamine, but I'm wary about the excitotoxin business.

> How did I become sensitive to glutamates? Leaky gut. Quite interesting it's

recommended for it- I'd like to see any research behind that. I would warn

anyone with leaky gut to stay away from glutamates lest they go through what

I've been through the last three weeks.

Glutamate isn't recommended for leaky gut. Glutamine is. Glutamine

is a basic tissue-repair substance, and the purpose of the enzyme

tissue transglutaminase is to turn glutamate residues on proteins into

glutamine residues so that healing can take place. That's probably

why that enzyme is elevated in celiac. But then you get antibodies to

it, possibly because of it's conflicting role in incidentally making

gluten more immunogenic.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

- Dr Ron's multi -

> He does have a custom formula. I just talked to him about it, and he

> said that he had to make a few compromises here and there to keep the

> price under $50 a bottle, because the inclusion of the antioxidants

> made it very pricey to have produced.

Did you per chance ask about why all the beta carotene? Just curious.

[Guest guest]

>

> It really bothers me, though, that this research *isn't* being done

> (at leas to my knowledge), because I feel like I benefit from taking

> glutamine, but I'm wary about the excitotoxin business.

Thank you so much for clearing that up. I have a huge cannister

of glutamine that just sits there b/c I hear so many conflicting

things. What you say makes sense. I saw improvements in my gut from

taking it, so it truly helped me in that area.

Since you have more experience with this supplement than most, how

would you recommend dosage on it. And if you are wary, does that mean

it has excitotoxin potential?