Re: Re: brix [how much calcium do we really need?]

[Guest guest]

>It all sounds good. I especially like the grasshopper story.

And this from an ag consultant who is not whatsoever concerned about

*organic* gardening.

>

>But I have trouble understanding why insects would not want to

>eat foods that we like best? That seems counter-intuitive to

>me. I would expect insects to like those foods better, as we do.

I believe Arden Andersen, ag consultant, DO, and probably the most

well-known brix proponent, wrote in one of his books ( " Science in

Agriculture " I think) that high brix plants give off a sound wave or was it

radio wave(?) - some kind of of wave that repels insects.

I think the idea is that it's some sort of protective mechanism that's more

prominent in plants that are well nourished. This seems logical to me in

light of the fact that the better nourished humans and other animals are,

the better our immune systems are at repelling parasites (and disease). The

same apparently goes for plants.

Suze

[Guest guest]

,

> The only explanation that I can think of is that maybe part of the

> flavor that we have come to like in vegetables and fruits is from the

> flavonoids and maybe even the salicylates that actually work as

> natural pesticides for the plants. If the plant is healthy, I would

> expect it to produce more of these natural pesticides in addition to

> providing more nutrients.

I think the opposite is actually true. I'm not sure about salicylates

and flavonoids, but for glucosinolates and cyanogenic glycosides,

which are the natural pesticides of a variety of plants and goitrogens

to humans, the plants make much more when they are malnourished.

Organic plants make slightly more than non-organic plants, but you get

much higher increases if you deprive the plant of water, grow the

plants too close together, or deprive it of certain nutrients. For

example boron deficiency triples the level of glucosinolates.

I find it more likely that these poisons are backup defenses, and the

first lines of defense are sturdy and healthy tissues, and maybe other

things we know less about. Walters from USA Acres wrote

something about some type of infrared system but I don't know any

details.

Chris

[Guest guest]

,

> here's some evidence that salicylates are often substantially

> higher in organic vegetables:

> " Salicylic Acid in Soups with Organic and Non-Organic Vegetables "

> http://www.annieappleseedproject.org/salacinsoupw.html

> They are actually wanting more salicylates in the soup

I'm aware of that, but we were discussing better nourished plants, not

organic ones. Obviously all things being equal plants that are

exopsed to more pests will produce higher amounts of pest defenses.

Plants that get fungal infections and so on produce lots of these

chemicals. Humans who don't use fluordiated toothpaste might get more

cavities too, all things being equal, but when nutrition is ideal,

humans don't get cavities even without any toothpaste at all.

> > I find it more likely that these poisons are backup defenses, and

> > the first lines of defense are sturdy and healthy tissues, and maybe

> > other things we know less about. Walters from USA Acres

> > wrote something about some type of infrared system but I don't know

> > any details.

> It should be possible to test the effects of different growing

> conditions, including soil nutrients and water levels on the health of

> the plants and their resistance to pests, as well as their production

> of natural pesticides and plant nutrients. This is what the USDA

> should be funding instead of subsidizing factory farms and research on

> GMO's.

There's a bit of research on it, but not nearly as much as there should be.

Chris

[Guest guest]

>--- Suze Fisher <s.fisher22@...> wrote:

>> And this from an ag consultant who is not whatsoever concerned about

>> *organic* gardening.

>

>Suze,

>

>I wonder if this farmer changed his ways after this experience?

I think there's a misunderstanding - I was referring to the ag consultant

Rodney Heinen. From what I recall of our interview, he could care less about

" organic " - what he cared about was growing nutrient-dense crops and

teaching other farmers how to do it.

Oh, do you mean his neighbor with all the grasshoppers? If so, I don't know

the answer to that.

>> I believe Arden Andersen, ag consultant, DO, and probably the most

>> well-known brix proponent, wrote in one of his books ( " Science in

>> Agriculture " I think) that high brix plants give off a sound wave or

>> was it radio wave(?) - some kind of of wave that repels insects.

>

>Are these waves that we can measure? If so, this might be a

>good way to determine crop health.

I don't recall - I'd have to go back and look through the book for that. I'm

pretty sure this has been discussed on the brix list, as well. There could

be info in the their archives about it.

>

>> I think the idea is that it's some sort of protective

>mechanism that's

>> more prominent in plants that are well nourished.

>

>Speaking of well nourished, have you done much brix testing of

>the vegetables and fruits that you eat?

I did when I first bought my brix meter a few years ago.

If so, are you able

>to find much in the way of high brix produce?

No. Most of it's poor, some is average and only once or twice did something

brix as " good " . I've never found local produce that brixed as " excellent " . I

mostly tested organic produce since that's what I usually buy. I've stopped

brixing things *unless* they give clear signs of being high brix - look and

taste. If it's very deeply pigmented and looks healthy, I'll brix it. But I

can tell by looking at most of the produce that it's low brix. If it tastes

outstanding, I'll brix it.

I would think

>this might be a good approach to improve your calcium intake

>as opposed to taking a supplement.

Not really, because basically everything's low brix in my area. Furthermore,

brix levels don't tell you how much of each mineral is present. The only

sure-fire way that I can get the amount of calcium that I want to consume

daily is to supplement. Also, until recently, I was on a dairy-free diet, so

it was really hard to get much calcium from food, especially since I haven't

had a lot of time to plan and prepare meals.

>

>I also am curious if differing brix levels might influence

>results of nutrient bioavailability, as in spinach, for

>instance, which has told us is reported to have very

>poor bioavailability of calcium.

>Maybe the spinach they tested was low brix?

It was almost guarenteed to be low brix like the rest of the produce in the

U.S.

Suze

[Guest guest]

,

> I just finished reading Suze's WAPF article:

> " The Quest for Nutrient-Dense Food--High-Brix Farming and Gardening "

> http://www.westonaprice.org/farming/nutrient-dense.html

> It all sounds good. I especially like the grasshopper story.

Yeah it is great story.

IIRC, Rex has actually seen a scenario during a drought where one

farmer had plants that didn't survive and across the street, under the

same drought conditions, the farmers plants were thriving.

> But I have trouble understanding why insects would not gwant to eat

> foods that we like best? That seems counter-intuitive to me. I would

> expect insects to like those foods better, as we do.

High brix plants emit a certain frequency whereby insects can't " see "

them. I seem to recall that insects die from the sugar content of high

brix plants which turns to alcohol in their system.

It really is just a variation of the idea of " God's cleanup crew. "

Parasites, scavengers, etc. don't attack the strong but the weak. Weak

plants and animals are culled by virtue of being easy targets.

By the way, an outgrowth of the above is when organic crops have to be

sustained with organic pesticides etc, even natural ones, that is a

nutritiously poor crop.

> The only explanation that I can think of is that maybe part of the

> flavor that we have come to like in vegetables and fruits is from the

> flavonoids and maybe even the salicylates that actually work as

> natural pesticides for the plants. If the plant is healthy, I would

> expect it to produce more of these natural pesticides in addition to

> providing more nutrients.

Actually no. If there is a large presence of " anti's " , which

conventional wisdom says is there for defensive purposes, it is

because the plant was grown on poor soil. They decrease when fertility

increases, and yet the plant becomes more insect resistant, despite

less in the way of " defenses " . Apparently without proper soil

fertility a plant will build up other defenses, which most think of as

normal for plants.

> So far, I am having trouble finding any scientific studies of brix

> refractometer measurements versus direct nutrient measurements.

> I did find this article that mentions testing done by Bob Pike:

> " What is brix? "

> http://www.highbrixgardens.com/highbrix/highbrix.html

>

> It refers to Bob Pike's web site:

> http://www.pikeagri.com/

>

> But so far I haven't found his study results.

You should contact Bob Pike and Arden (easily done via email)

directly and perhaps ask over on the brixlist.

Sometime in the next several weeks I will be about an hour or so from

his lab. I think I might bop over there and check it out to see what I

can dig up.

--

" Who loves not women, wine and song remains a fool his whole life long. "

Luther

[Guest guest]

,

> Speaking of well nourished, have you done much brix testing of the

> vegetables and fruits that you eat? If so, are you able to find much

> in the way of high brix produce? I would think this might be a good

> approach to improve your calcium intake as opposed to taking a supplement.

Or, given the usually poor results, cause one to supplement their diet :-)

Getting calcium is not as easy at high levels when you are dairy free.

I'm not saying it can't be done but it seems to me it would take a lot

of food or some very careful planning.

> I also am curious if differing brix levels might influence results of

> nutrient bioavailability, as in spinach, for instance, which has

> told us is reported to have very poor bioavailability of calcium.

> Maybe the spinach they tested was low brix?

I will bet you a box of Cuban Romeo y ta's the spinach was poor brix :-))

--

" Who loves not women, wine and song remains a fool his whole life long. "

Luther

[Guest guest]

On 7/21/07, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> Getting calcium is not as easy at high levels when you are dairy free.

Ignore this comment. I see Suze is no longer dairy free.

--

" Who loves not women, wine and song remains a fool his whole life long. "

Luther

[Guest guest]

On 7/21/07, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> High brix plants emit a certain frequency whereby insects can't " see "

> them. I seem to recall that insects die from the sugar content of high

> brix plants which turns to alcohol in their system.

Certain flavonoids act to filter certain UV wavelengths that act as a

positive or negative signal to insects that can discriminate visually

between different wavelengths of UV (which we can't), so this probably

plays into it somehow.

> It really is just a variation of the idea of " God's cleanup crew. "

> Parasites, scavengers, etc. don't attack the strong but the weak. Weak

> plants and animals are culled by virtue of being easy targets.

This only makes sense from a more ecological perspective of ecology;

we've been driven by conventional Darwinism to think of ecologies as a

mishmash of individualisms rather than actual ecologies, so I think

this is part of the conceptual clash here.

> By the way, an outgrowth of the above is when organic crops have to be

> sustained with organic pesticides etc, even natural ones, that is a

> nutritiously poor crop.

Not to mention a toxic crop, since many organic pesticides are as

toxic or more toxic than artificial ones. So the idea that organic

foods are " malnutrition without the poison " might be overly

optimistic.

> Actually no. If there is a large presence of " anti's " , which

> conventional wisdom says is there for defensive purposes, it is

> because the plant was grown on poor soil. They decrease when fertility

> increases, and yet the plant becomes more insect resistant, despite

> less in the way of " defenses " . Apparently without proper soil

> fertility a plant will build up other defenses, which most think of as

> normal for plants.

This is consistent with my reading on glucosinolates and cyanogenic

glycosides that I did for my current Special Report (offered through

my web site) and the crucifer article in this summer's Wise

Traditions. Organic crops have 15-40% more glucosinolates than

conventional, but crops raised in boron-deficient soil have THREE

TIMES more glucosinolates than crops raised in boron-sufficient soil.

Moreover drought, less severe water deprivation, crowding, and

infection all substantially raise levels of glucosinolates -- just

like organic does. Obviously organic is raising the levels because

the organic crops are malnourished, and they artificial pesticides are

just covering up their malnourishment and sweeping it under the rug.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Now I wish every book I owned was digitized so we could word search.

On Jul 21, 2007, at 8:15 AM, Suze Fisher wrote:

>>> I believe Arden Andersen, ag consultant, DO, and probably the most

>>> well-known brix proponent, wrote in one of his books ( " Science in

>>> Agriculture " I think) that high brix plants give off a sound wave or

>>> was it radio wave(?) - some kind of of wave that repels insects.

>>

>> Are these waves that we can measure? If so, this might be a

>> good way to determine crop health.

>

> I don't recall - I'd have to go back and look through the book for

> that. I'm

> pretty sure this has been discussed on the brix list, as well. There

> could

> be info in the their archives about it.

>

Parashis

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