Re: Does marinating fish really kill parasites?

June 24, 2007

--- Deanna, " yoginidd " <WAPFbaby@...> wrote:

> But back to the marinades: does citrus juice or whey really

> kill parasites within the 24 hour or so marinating period? The

> former I could probably go along with, but whey is not that acidic.

Deanna, ceviche has been used for a long time to ferment fish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceviche

So, it can't be too bad.

However, that doesn't mean it will kill the parasites:

http://seafood.ucdavis.edu/haccp/compendium/chapt16.htm

" Parasites (in the larval stage) consumed in uncooked, or undercooked,

unfrozen seafood can present a human health hazard. Among parasites,

the nematodes or roundworms (Anisakis spp., Pseudoterranova spp.,

Eustrongylides spp. and Gnathostoma spp.), cestodes or tapeworms

(Diphyllobothrium spp.) and trematodes or flukes (Chlonorchis

sinensis, Opisthorchis spp., Heterophyes spp., Metagonimus spp.,

Nanophyetes salminicola and Paragonimus spp.) are of most concern in

seafood. Some products that have been implicated in human infection

are: ceviche (fish and spices marinated in lime juice); lomi lomi

(salmon marinated in lemon juice, onion and tomato); poisson cru (fish

marinated in citrus juice, onion, tomato and coconut milk); herring

roe; sashimi (slices of raw fish); sushi (pieces of raw fish with rice

and other ingredients); green herring (lightly brined herring);

drunken crabs (crabs marinated in wine and pepper); cold-smoked fish;

and, undercooked grilled fish. A recent survey of U.S.

gastroenterologists has confirmed that seafood-borne parasitic

infections occur in the U.S. with sufficient frequency to make

preventive controls necessary during the processing of

parasite-containing species of fish that are intended for raw

consumption (FDA, 2001). "

Take for example (from link above):

" Anisakiasis is caused by the accidental ingestion of larvae of the

nematodes (roundworms) Anisakis simplex and Pseudoterranova decipiens.

Adult stages of A. simplex or P. decipiens reside in the stomach of

marine mammals, where they are embedded in the mucosa, in clusters.

Eggs produced by adult females are passed in the feces, hatch and

yield second stage larvae. Upon ingestion by crustaceans, third stage

larvae develop that are infective to fish and squid. After ingestion

by the fish and squid hosts, the larvae migrate from the intestine to

the peritoneal cavity to (upon the host's death) the muscle tissues.

Through predation, the larvae are transferred from fish to fish until

they are ingested by the marine mammal. In this definitive host, the

larvae develop into adults, thus closing the cycle. Humans become

infected by eating raw or undercooked marine fish. After ingestion,

the anisakid larvae penetrate the gastric and intestinal mucosa,

causing the symptoms of anisakiasis. Within hours after ingestion of

infected larvae, violent abdominal pain, nausea, and vomiting may

occur. Occasionally the larvae are coughed up. If the larvae pass into

the bowel, a severe eosinophilic granulomatous response may also

occur, causing symptoms mimicking Crohn's disease 1-2 weeks following

infection. "

Although, it seems like I've heard some raw meat proponents here say

that a few parasites are good for you

<I'll stick with cooked meat, thank you>

June 24, 2007

I would NEVER...EVER eat raw fish. No raw or uncooked meat, but especially

not fish. </HTML>

June 24, 2007

,

> Deanna, ceviche has been used for a long time to ferment fish.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceviche

> So, it can't be too bad.

Is ceviche really fermented though? I think marinating something is

very different than fermenting something. Fermenting involves the

chemical breakdown of a substance by bacteria or other microorganisms,

and it usually occurs anaerobically. Throwing some lime juice on

shrimp for a few hours (per the great ceviche article on wiki you

referenced before) will not suffice to ferment the food. To ferment

fish, you have to bury it for a time away from air. That's why

gravlax has the word grave in it - no coincidence there. It is

Scandinavian for salmon in the grave. Pretty typical of ferments too

laddie; salt, no air, and let nature take its course. In this case,

salmon was salted and herbed up by the fishermen and buried in the

sand above the high tide line. I suppose worms in the fish would need

air, so any fermentation would probably kill parasites, yes? Whereas

marinating in acid may make for a bad environment, but so long as air

was present, so might the worms/larvae be. In my case, the whole

salted vermouthed mess was wrapped in some estrogenic plastic schtuff.

So I still don't know. I figured freezing after the curing would

curtail any nasties, but I am still very interested in seeing if

citrus marinades really kill parasites. Shoot, maybe I should get

some fish wormies and experiment meself.

Wriggly,

Deanna

June 25, 2007

--- Deanna, " yoginidd " <WAPFbaby@...> wrote:

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceviche

> Is ceviche really fermented though?

Deanna, the " traditional " method of preparing and serving ceviche is

at room temperature. If it is out for even a few hours at room

temperature I would expect some fermentation activity, though

certainly not as much as what you would get over a few days. The fact

that ceviche was and is so popular would suggest that it must not be

too dangerous

Here's some more info on ceviche:

http://www.fiery-foods.com/dave/ceviche.asp

" ...citric acid will not kill any parasites in the fish like heat

will. Fortunately, most fish are parasite-free, as any sushi chef will

tell you. So the rule of thumb is: if you are comfortable eating sushi

or sashimi, go ahead and try ceviche. If you are not, don't. When in

doubt, freeze the fish ... "

Let us know if you survive

June 25, 2007

Coincidentally, yesterday afternoon I marinated salmon in beet-

kombucha.

My very acidic kombucha had previously been used to pickle shredded

beets with ginger root. The veggies toned down the acidity of the

kombucha. Veggies had been in the kombucha for at least 2-3 weeks.

BTW, despite being food processor-pulverized instead of hand-chopped

as NT recommends for beet kvass, they pickled nicely (no noticeable

alchohol).

I had purchased frozen wild salmon. Thawed, skinned, cut in slices,

and covered it in the beet-kombucha. Also added cucumbers, scallions

and more ginger root. I love sushi, so didn't mind sampling the thawed

salmon prior to marination. It tasted good, though slightly fishy. I

didn't find the texture compromised from freezing, but perhaps someone

more experienced with raw fish would.

Today (maybe 18 hours of marinating in the fridge) it is completely

delicious, with zero fishy taste. Only slightly sweet from the beets.

I love pickled herring but not the corn syrup, etc., from commercial

brands, so this seemed like a good alternative.

I pray that freezing/thawing/marinating kills parasites. But if you

never hear from me again, you will find out!

Happy eating Deanna! Joan

June 25, 2007

Let us mourn for your tastebuds, as sashimi is a glorious food (which I

can rarely afford). The best melts on the tongue like fish butter. Many

raw dishes are traditionally paired with foods that I speculate were once

anti-parasitical. Meaning, that the wasabi and pickled ginger (if made

traditionally) might aid in that regard, as also the garlic and bitter

greens served with carpaccio. Is there any science to back up my

supposition? I really want to make traditional pickled ginger this fall.

.. . .

.. . . Desh

June 26, 2007

> Today (maybe 18 hours of marinating in the fridge) it is completely

> delicious, with zero fishy taste. Only slightly sweet from the beets.

> I love pickled herring but not the corn syrup, etc., from commercial

> brands, so this seemed like a good alternative.

Joan,

That sounds so tasty! I too love pickled herring, yet can do without

the corn syrup and preservatives. I might try a terriyaki style raw

salmon soon with tamari, ginger, honey and maybe a touch of garlic.

> I pray that freezing/thawing/

> marinating kills parasites. But if you

> never hear from me again, you will find out!

That is the one way I know to kill parasites: freeze at 0 degrees for a

week or so. Apparently it won't kill bacteria, though.

Deanna

June 26, 2007

> > I pray that freezing/thawing/

> > marinating kills parasites. But if you

> > never hear from me again, you will find out!

> That is the one way I know to kill parasites: freeze at 0 degrees

for a

> week or so. Apparently it won't kill bacteria, though.

>

Does this ruin the texture of fish too much for raw preparations, as

I've read it does?

June 26, 2007

>

> I might try a terriyaki style raw salmon soon with tamari,

> ginger, honey and maybe a touch of garlic.

That does sound delicious. Last night I tried some of the cerviche

styles posted - adding cilantro and hot peppers: delicious! BTW: I am

still alive (and lost 2.5 pounds yesterday... oh boy!). --Joan

June 26, 2007

--- In , " kristinmoke " <kmoke@...>

wrote:

> Does this ruin the texture of fish too much for raw preparations, as

> I've read it does?

Texture seems fine to me. -- Joan

June 26, 2007

Hi ,

> Does this ruin the texture of fish too much for raw preparations, as

> I've read it does?

Apparently this is more true for very lean fish than fatty ones. Oh,

and if you do freeze fish, small pieces are best. Helen at the beyond

salmon blog has some information on this (though I disagree with her

farmed salmon recommendation):

http://tinyurl.com/377dby

I will let you know if curing the fresh salmon before freezing it

produced any textural changes when I thaw it next week. The whole

point of the inquiry is that I can find no credible information on

whether marinating fresh fish in acid or whey kills parasites, which

is stated without reference in NT. I'd rather be safe than sorry, so

I am freezing the fish until I hear otherwise ... especially since I

am NOT a trained sushi chef! The FDA claims that ceviche has been

implicated in human parasite infections, but they seem to have no

references either (from the glance I have time for).

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/%7Ecomm/haccp4e.html