Re: RELIGION God and Empirical Evidence (was Religious and political

[Guest guest]

> As far as a definition for God, I like the pantheistic definition:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism>

> Pantheism (Greek: & #960; & #940;

> & #957; ( 'pan' ) = all and & #952; & #949; & #972; & #962; ( 'theos' ) = God)

> literally means " God is All " and " All is God " . It is the view that

> everything is of an all-encompassing immanent abstract God; or that

> the universe, or nature, and God are equivalent. More detailed

> definitions tend to emphasize the idea that natural law, existence,

> and the universe (the sum total of all that is, was, and shall be) is

> represented or personified in the theological principle of an abstract

> 'god'.

Hi ,

If God is the definition you choose above then: 1) Was there no God

before the Big Bang? 2) Is God transcendent in any respect and able to

intervene in the affairs of the universe?

I really think y'all need a working definition of what God is before you

can begin to consider any possible evidence.

Deanna, who likes the Deist transcendent God better :-P

[Guest guest]

--- wrote:

> > As far as a definition for God, I like the pantheistic definition:

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism

> > Pantheism (Greek: 'pan' = all and 'theos' = God)

> > literally means " God is All " and " All is God " . It is the view that

> > everything is of an all-encompassing immanent abstract God; or

> > that the universe, or nature, and God are equivalent. More

> > detailed definitions tend to emphasize the idea that natural law,

> > existence, and the universe (the sum total of all that is, was,

> > and shall be) is represented or personified in the theological

> > principle of an abstract 'god'.

>

--- Deanna, yoginidd <WAPFbaby@...> wrote:

> If God is the definition you choose above then: 1) Was there no God

> before the Big Bang? 2) Is God transcendent in any respect and able

> to intervene in the affairs of the universe?

Deanna, to me it is intuitive that if the universe exists, it has

always existed and will always exist. In other words, the universe

must be eternal or we wouldn't be here. I don't believe you can get

something from nothing, despite what some physicists propose

To me universe = nature = God = Whatever you want to call it.

1) The universe must be eternal in my view.

2) The universe cannot transcend the universe. This makes no sense

But the " laws " of the universe do direct the affairs of the universe

.... things like gravity and the speed of light for instance.

[Guest guest]

" kristinmoke " kmoke@... wrote:

This discussion has come up as I'm reading " Life After Death: The

Burden of Proof " by Deepak Chopra which unexpectedly bid me from the

library shelf the other day (summer reading . Excerpts that seem

pertinent to your comments:

" Thinking, the basic operation of the mind, organizes reality to

make sense. The universe does this physically. It forms complex

systems. DNA is one example, but genes didn't create life simply by

stringing simple molecules along a double helix. There are spaces

between each genetic bit, and this sequencing is all-important. An

amoeba differs from a human being in the sequence of carbon, oxygen,

hydrogen and nitrogen along its genes, not in the atoms themselves.

The fact that empty spaces, or gaps, between genetic material are so

important brings us back to the void, where *something* is arranging

random events so they are meaningful…

" I've been speaking as if the universe consciously knows what it is

doing when DNA creates an amoeba, for example, instead of a

chimpanzee or a human being. This implies self-awareness on the part

of molecules, and that in turn requires the Zero Point Field to act

like a mind as it organizes every possible fluctuation in the

cosmos. No matter how closely one draws the parallels, this premise

can't be proven- or disproven- because the Zero Point Field, by

containing everything, contains us. We cannot step outside it, and

so we are in the same position as a fish trying to prove that the

ocean is wet. Unless the fish jumps out of the ocean, water is

everywhere; there is no contrast, and therefore no dryness that

makes wetness possible.

We cannot prove that the universe has a mind, because we aren't

mindless. The Vedic rishis were fortunate that they started out

believing that consciousness was real and needed no proof. Physics

doesn't hold that consciousness is a given. To speak of a self-aware

universe puts one at the fringes of speculative thinking in physics. "

I'm not really qualified to critique or otherwise analyze much of

that, but my thoughts about evidence for or against God usually come

down not to the unanswered but the empirically unanswerable sort of

questions.

Just got this book few days ago and haven't started reading. Interesting the

amoeba, DNA and Zero Point Field in relation to the Ihalmiut Eskimo's Law of

Life I sent. Thought of adding to the thank God, thank Shiva for comment a

thank 's DNA, ancestry and life experience. Have learned in my half century

that whatever is unanswerable one day can often have an answer soon without my

effort. That to me is experiential proof of being in the Zero Point Field,

universe, Great Mystery, consciousness or everything. Hierarchy is just thinking

outside of the ZPF.

Wanita

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[Guest guest]

" Gene Schwartz " implode7@... droolmaster wrote:

> If I were to have to come up with a mystery that would compel me to accept the

> existence of a higher power, it would be that of subjective consciousness.

Thank you, Gene! Since the quote below is what led up to this exploration into

subjective consciousness, isn't " as if we are pictures " objective with " our

hearts and minds are not there " being where the possible subjective is to the

Hadzabe? Could be an objective objective ( purpose) that is elsewhere too.

Might be where the heart and mind is is where one is free to be who they are.

" We just go to church

as if we are pictures, " one man said. " Our hearts and minds

are not

there. "

Interesting that astrologically the planet Saturn (structure, responsibility) is

opposing Neptune (nebulousness) the least few days. Explains trying to structure

from vague.

Wanita

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lay it on us. http://surveylink./gmrs/_panel_invite.asp?a=7

[Guest guest]

I want some of what you've been smoking...

-------------- Original message ----------------------

From: Wanita <wanitawa@...>

> " Gene Schwartz " implode7@... droolmaster wrote:

>

> > If I were to have to come up with a mystery that would compel me to accept

the

> > existence of a higher power, it would be that of subjective consciousness.

>

> Thank you, Gene! Since the quote below is what led up to this exploration into

> subjective consciousness, isn't " as if we are pictures " objective with " our

> hearts and minds are not there " being where the possible subjective is to the

> Hadzabe? Could be an objective objective ( purpose) that is elsewhere too.

> Might be where the heart and mind is is where one is free to be who they are.

>

> " We just go to church

> as if we are pictures, " one man said. " Our hearts and minds

> are not

> there. "

>

> Interesting that astrologically the planet Saturn (structure, responsibility)

is

> opposing Neptune (nebulousness) the least few days. Explains trying to

structure

> from vague.

>

> Wanita

>

>

>

>

>

________________________________________________________________________________

> ____

> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join 's user panel

and

> lay it on us. http://surveylink./gmrs/_panel_invite.asp?a=7

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gene,

you already have some, you're just not inhaling.

hehe

tb

>

>

> I want some of what you've been smoking...

>

*******************************************

> > " We just go to church

> > as if we are pictures, " one man said. " Our hearts and minds

> > are not

> > there. "

> >

> > Interesting that astrologically the planet Saturn (structure,

responsibility) is

> > opposing Neptune (nebulousness) the least few days. Explains

trying to structure

> > from vague.

> >

> > Wanita

[Guest guest]

Sorry folks just nicotine. Have read nicotine boosts dopamine and acetylcholine

in the brain. Got you wondering opioid free too. No gluten or dairy. I must have

faulty cannibinoid receptors. Just the smell of the smoke you're talking about

makes my sinuses flip out.

I almost drowned when I was 10 after my neighbor decided to push me in below the

falls where we'd go swimming to see if I'd learn to swim. Was nearly

unconscious, water in my lungs when she got me out. Something helped me and her,

made me lighter.

The near drowning made better sense to me 25 years later when I began an effort

to protect an adjacent piece of property to the falls from development. I knew

the property was a 12,000 yr. old Native American village where a massacre of

more than 300 had taken place during King 's War. Reading the historical

record of the massacre I found that it happened not at the village but just

below the falls of the tributary where something had helped save my life. I knew

I had Native American ancestry at age 5 and was going to Catholic Church too. I

was more subjective to religion at 10 and objective to what my ancestry involved

spiritually. Who or what could my helping something have been at those falls?

Fascinating coincidence if nothing else.

Not to change the subject. Here's an interesting psychological theory to put in

one's pipe and smoke.

Theory of Positive Disintegration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Disintegration

Wanita

Gene,

you already have some, you're just not inhaling.

hehe

tb

>

>

> I want some of what you've been smoking...

>

*******************************************

> > " We just go to church

> > as if we are pictures, " one man said. " Our hearts and minds

> > are not

> > there. "

> >

> > Interesting that astrologically the planet Saturn (structure,

responsibility) is

> > opposing Neptune (nebulousness) the least few days. Explains

trying to structure

> > from vague.

> >

> > Wanita

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[Guest guest]

-

As far as I know, B vitamin status affects whether folks dream in color

or not. Nutritient status seems to color everything (ha, ha).

Desh