Re: Coumadin / Blood thinners

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2003 10:09:30 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

madisonn99@... writes:

<< However, in most

cases the blood thinning effect of natural thinners is not one that

can be picked up by the more common protime test. >>

Hi, ,

Did a doctor tell you that the effect of natural thinners cannot be picked up

by a Protime test? I would think that the Protime test measures the actual

viscosity of the blood rather than the cause of that level of viscosity. On

that premise it seems that if the blood reaches a certain level of low

viscosity, it would be measured by the Protime test regardless of the cause of

that

viscosity level. For example, when I was taking Amoxicillin, my INR shot up to

3.6 according to the Protime test. The test, of course, didn't tell me what

caused the high level but simply measured the results. My doctor and I figured

out the cause.

As you know, I have been taking vitamin E forever, eating fish, and avoiding

large quantities of leafy vegetables. (I have a friend who has had a more

serious ventricular problem since childhood, and her doctor told her to eat no

vegetables since she is on Coumadin. I was surprised at that because my own

doctor did not approve my experiment in giving up vegetables.) My INR has

stayed stable now at 2.4 to 2.7 for more than a year on 2.5 of Coumadin. I

think

that on the occasions when my INR has risen above 3.00, I could tell by the

fact that bruising and bleeding became more of a problem. I think we also have

to pay attention to what is going on with our bodies when we are taking

Coumadin.

in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2003 3:00:19 PM Central Daylight Time,

james@... writes:

> I'm sure there are many monographs out there which can explain the

> mechanism of action for warfarin and the INR test far better than I can,

> so I wont even try

> --

> D

>

>

This certainly is not a monograph, but I have been told that

coumadin/warfarin " contains " a clot until the body can desolve it. What ever

that means.

Sounds strange but thats what I heard.

Guy

[Guest guest]

When I was first diagnosed with Afib and told about coumadin, my cardioligist

also mentioned it was rat poison. He said that the reason the rats die is they

can't regurgitate the blood. Oh well. They also told me not to change my

dietary intake of vitamin K, i.e. if I eat broccoli and green leafy veggies

don't increase or decrease it. I like salads and broccoli, but have no idea now

often they show up in my regular diet -- so I just try not to indulge too often.

Later I had occasion to ask my GP what over-the-counter pain killer I could

take, since I assumed aspirin was out. She said go with Tylenol. Ed

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2003 12:09:13 PM Central Daylight Time,

madisonn99@... writes:

> how safe is taking Coumadin and supplementing with

> different natural blood thinners?

>

>

The only thing my cardio says NOT to take while on Coumadin is garlic. I

don't think we know how safe these natural things are for the very reasons you

mention. Are you having side effects with your Coumadin and for this reason are

searching for alternatives?

Brenta

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have been trying with more or less success to replace some of my

Coumadin with other more natural blood thinners. However, in most

cases the blood thinning effect of natural thinners is not one that

can be picked up by the more common protime test. What that

basically means is, that adding natural thinners, such as Vit E.,

garlic, ginger etc. may very well thin the blood but it can not be

efficiently measured. To my knowledge there is nothing reliable yet

that would give us a complete picture of our clotting time. Now to

my question, how safe is taking Coumadin and supplementing with

different natural blood thinners?

/

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2003 12:34:52 PM Central Daylight Time,

Starfi6314@... writes:

> that premise it seems that if the blood reaches a certain level of low

> viscosity, it would be measured by the Protime test regardless of the cause

> of that

> viscosity level. For example, when I was taking Amoxicillin, my INR shot up

> to

> 3.6 according to the Protime test. The test, of course, didn't tell me what

>

> caused the high level but simply measured the results. My doctor and I

> figured

> out the cause.

>

Actually the pro time measures the effect Coumadin is having on the Vitamin

K dependent factors in the coagulation system. Since these factors are

necessary in the normal course of clotting, Coumadin " thins blood " by making less

of

these factors available. The viscosity of the blood is not affected by Coumadin

per se. If another " blood thinning " substance does not affect theVitamin K

dependent factors but affects other elements of the coagulation system (of

which there are many) then the pro time won't pick it up. A good example is

bleeding from low platelets or from an overabundance of heparin: the protime

won't

pick those up--other tests are needed. Amoxicillin has a similar effect on

the Vitamin K dependent factors as Coumadin and often affects the INR in the way

you describe.

Brenta

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2003 2:11:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

B6426@... writes:

<< Amoxicillin has a similar effect on

the Vitamin K dependent factors as Coumadin and often affects the INR in the

way

you describe. >>

Thanks, and Brenta for setting me straight on Coumadin. I guess I

should do more research on this drug which I am putting into my body every day.

in sinus and Seattle

[Guest guest]

Consider that warafin in rat poison causes the mice to leave the

building in search of water and then they bleed to death and die.

So, doubt coumadin contains a clot until the body can dissolve it.

As I understand it, the principle is to thin some property in the

blood that keeps it from readily clotting, thus why the PT tests are

necessary to keep one from getting blood too thin that there's a

bleeed out like the mice.

(SNIP), but I have been told that coumadin/warfarin " contains " a clot

until the body can desolve it. What ever that means.

> Sounds strange but thats what I heard.

> Guy

[Guest guest]

Wrote:

> Hi, ,

> Did a doctor tell you that the effect of natural thinners cannot be picked up

> by a Protime test? I would think that the Protime test measures the actual

> viscosity of the blood rather than the cause of that level of viscosity. On

> that premise it seems that if the blood reaches a certain level of low

> viscosity, it would be measured by the Protime test regardless of the cause of

that

> viscosity level.

Hi ,

Protime test / INR is not a measure of blood viscosity. It's a shame we

call warafain a blood thinner because it gives people an entirely false

idea of how it operates - it does not thin the blood.

I believe the protime test is a very specific test which doesn't give

you the whole picture but it is very useful to monitor warfarin dosage.

I'm sure there are many monographs out there which can explain the

mechanism of action for warfarin and the INR test far better than I can,

so I wont even try

--

D

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/31/2003 4:10:58 PM Central Daylight Time,

B6426@... writes:

> Actually the pro time measures the effect Coumadin is having on the

> Vitamin

> K dependent factors in the coagulation system. Since these factors are

> necessary in the normal course of clotting, Coumadin " thins blood " by making

> less of

> these factors available. The viscosity of the blood is not affected by

> Coumadin

> per se

This reminded me that my cardio also told me that coumadin did not effect

blood viscosity. So now back to the rat poison effect that makes them bleed to

death internally. Do rats have a pre-existing condition like ulcers or some

other condition that requires constant coagulation?

guy

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/1/2003 8:27:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

madisonn99@... writes:

<< As to my diet - I think I have done all the right things - eliminated

all dairy (8 months now), avoided additives, stayed with natural

foods and vitamins, but without any change. However, I would not

discourage anyone else from trying - as proven it does work for some.

>>

Hi, ,

I would stay with the dairy elimination a bit longer since you have come this

far because it may take varying amounts of time for different people. It

took Angus eight months and me nine months to see reduction in afib after giving

up dairy. The whole time element is unknown because I think so far Angus and

I are the only ones who have given up dairy 100 percent AND seen improvement

in afib. You and , another member who doesn't write often to the group,

have given up dairy 100 percent but have not seen an effect on afib yet.

However, it may take longer for you, or as you say it may not work at all. I

agree

with your philosophy. It's worth a try because I assume it hasn't hurt your

health at all, and if it works, it certainly beats taking stronger drugs,

ablation, or surgery, which I would do if I must but would rather avoid. Giving

up

dairy has helped my health in so many other ways that I believe I must have

had some special sensitivity like an allergy to milk products. Perhaps that

factor would explain why giving up dairy helps some but not others. However, I

continually return to the fact that most people do not give up dairy 100

percent as you did, but merely cut down on it, and that may not work at all.

in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/1/2003 10:41:07 AM Central Daylight Time,

madisonn99@... writes:

> Why did your cardio single out garlic?

>

He seems to believe that this is the only thing(of all the herbs, vitamins

etc. we've been warned about) that will really get the INR out of whack! I'm

taking his word for it, although I haven't tested it!

Brenta

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

answered already your question and I cannot improve on it. I

know alcohol and certain meds will raise your INR - but many other

natural blood thinners will not - even though they will affect

clotting time. According to the information I received, there are a

number of different (very technical) pathways that our blood uses to

clot - Vit. K is only one of them.

As to my diet - I think I have done all the right things - eliminated

all dairy (8 months now), avoided additives, stayed with natural

foods and vitamins, but without any change. However, I would not

discourage anyone else from trying - as proven it does work for some.

/

[Guest guest]

Hi Brenta,

If given a choice, I would certainly prefer vitamins. On the other

hand I would like the assurance my clotting time is in the proper

range.

Many of the natural thinners, such as garlic and Vit. E are also

highly recommended for heart health and I really want them to be part

of my diet. Why did your cardio single out garlic?

/

The only thing my cardio says NOT to take while on Coumadin is

garlic. I don't think we know how safe these natural things are for

the very reasons you mention. Are you having side effects with your

Coumadin and for this reason are searching for alternatives?

> Brenta

[Guest guest]

To all who beleive in the give up dairy theory it is all a

wisetale.Many of us who gave it up,or never even consumed dairy have

AF.I consume two glasses a day if milk and actually find my AF has

improved.This theory goes alomg the with the ones that if you stand

on your left foot on Tuesday afternoon at 3:00 p.m,after eating an

apple,and if your birthday falls on a leap year,your AF will be

cured.Its not that simple folks.Milk or dairy as I have discussed

with many nutrionists,Dr's,and homiopaths,find this theory out in

left field.Sorry for the negative feedback,but too many people like

myself fall prey to these out of space theories,and others and find

our diet poor in nutrition,which creates other health problems.

ie

- In AFIBsupport , Starfi6314@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 6/1/2003 8:27:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

> madisonn99@A... writes:

>

> << As to my diet - I think I have done all the right things -

eliminated

> all dairy (8 months now), avoided additives, stayed with natural

> foods and vitamins, but without any change. However, I would not

> discourage anyone else from trying - as proven it does work for

some.

> >>

> Hi, ,

> I would stay with the dairy elimination a bit longer since you

have come this

> far because it may take varying amounts of time for different

people. It

> took Angus eight months and me nine months to see reduction in

afib after giving

> up dairy. The whole time element is unknown because I think so

far Angus and

> I are the only ones who have given up dairy 100 percent AND seen

improvement

> in afib. You and , another member who doesn't write often to

the group,

> have given up dairy 100 percent but have not seen an effect on

afib yet.

> However, it may take longer for you, or as you say it may not work

at all. I agree

> with your philosophy. It's worth a try because I assume it hasn't

hurt your

> health at all, and if it works, it certainly beats taking stronger

drugs,

> ablation, or surgery, which I would do if I must but would rather

avoid. Giving up

> dairy has helped my health in so many other ways that I believe I

must have

> had some special sensitivity like an allergy to milk products.

Perhaps that

> factor would explain why giving up dairy helps some but not

others. However, I

> continually return to the fact that most people do not give up

dairy 100

> percent as you did, but merely cut down on it, and that may not

work at all.

> in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

ie:

You may be 100% right about milk products and a-fib. Then again, I have found

that many things Doctors tell me don't always coincide with what my body tells

me. I think if avoiding milk products helps some people, for whatever reason,

great for them.

By the way, I always heard you were supposed to stand on your right foot. Maybe

thats why it never worked for me.

Jim on rat poison in Florida.

[Guest guest]

I consume two glasses a day if milk and actually find my AF has

> improved.

>

> ie

>

>

>

So what you are saying is that you have noticed an effect

of milk on your afib.Interesting.Were you off dairy for long?

Thanks for the feedback,it's all good.Angus

[Guest guest]

> To all who beleive in the give up dairy theory it is all a

> wisetale.Many of us who gave it up,or never even consumed dairy have

> AF.I consume two glasses a day if milk and actually find my AF has

> improved.This theory goes alomg the with the ones that if you stand

> on your left foot on Tuesday afternoon at 3:00 p.m,after eating an

> apple,and if your birthday falls on a leap year,your AF will be

> cured.Its not that simple folks.Milk or dairy as I have discussed

> with many nutrionists,Dr's,and homiopaths,find this theory out in

> left field.Sorry for the negative feedback,but too many people like

> myself fall prey to these out of space theories,and others and find

> our diet poor in nutrition,which creates other health problems.

>

> ie

I'd be interested in hearing why you think drinking milk helps your AF ie -

sounds a bit like standing on you right foot and singing Yankee Doodle Dandy to

me

--

D

[Guest guest]

Hi ,good humour is always a welcome.Maybe your right changing

feet and singing a different tune was the trick.My AF was worse when

I cut out milk for 7 months and all dairy.Since drinking milk

again,and going on the demand approach with Propafanone my AF has

improved.I know its not the milk,but my point was weither or not I

was on dairy products made no difference in my AF.The improvement

came thru the change in drug usage.I also tried looking for any data

or studies done with elimination of certain foods such as milk and

dairy and could find nothing.If eliminating dairy was key a factor

in eliminating AF it would be out there.Certain people maybe

sensitive to dairy that have AF and might find some relief in giving

it up all together,but not to actually be the root of their AF in

the first place. Just my thoery!!

Regards

ie

- In AFIBsupport , Driscoll <james@d...> wrote:

>

> > To all who beleive in the give up dairy theory it is all a

> > wisetale.Many of us who gave it up,or never even consumed dairy

have

> > AF.I consume two glasses a day if milk and actually find my AF

has

> > improved.This theory goes alomg the with the ones that if you

stand

> > on your left foot on Tuesday afternoon at 3:00 p.m,after eating

an

> > apple,and if your birthday falls on a leap year,your AF will be

> > cured.Its not that simple folks.Milk or dairy as I have

discussed

> > with many nutrionists,Dr's,and homiopaths,find this theory out

in

> > left field.Sorry for the negative feedback,but too many people

like

> > myself fall prey to these out of space theories,and others and

find

> > our diet poor in nutrition,which creates other health problems.

> >

> > ie

> I'd be interested in hearing why you think drinking milk helps

your AF ie -

> sounds a bit like standing on you right foot and singing Yankee

Doodle Dandy to me

>

> --

> D

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/2/2003 3:02:32 PM Central Daylight Time,

fross@... writes:

> Although rat poison is warfarin it also contains ground

> glass, to make sure that the rats bleed to death.

> >

>

Thanks for the info! It sounds like a plan to me!

Brenta

[Guest guest]

> Hi ,good humour is always a welcome.Maybe your right changing

> feet and singing a different tune was the trick.My AF was worse when

> I cut out milk for 7 months and all dairy.Since drinking milk

> again,and going on the demand approach with Propafanone my AF has

> improved.I know its not the milk,but my point was weither or not I

> was on dairy products made no difference in my AF.The improvement

> came thru the change in drug usage.I also tried looking for any data

> or studies done with elimination of certain foods such as milk and

> dairy and could find nothing.If eliminating dairy was key a factor

> in eliminating AF it would be out there.Certain people maybe

> sensitive to dairy that have AF and might find some relief in giving

> it up all together,but not to actually be the root of their AF in

> the first place. Just my thoery!!

>

> Regards

> ie

Hi ie,

personally, I don't believe that eliminating dairy will turn out to be

a key factor in curing AF but I don't agree that if it was, it would be already

out there.

The cure for AF, whatever it is, is not out there yet. This is a long way off

from

saying that eliminating dairy is guaranteed not to help anyone.

I may be putting 2 and 2 together to make 5 here but has seen a lot

of success by stopping dairy. I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong but

I think she is also still taking verapamil. So we can't say that the

elimination of dairy ALONE has cured her AF.

here's where I might be making 5

Verapamil is a calcium channel blocker and dairy if a fine source of

calcium. Perhaps this combination is what has helped that verapamil

alone would not fix?

Angus too has reported success (Angus are you med free?)

If you would like some further reading...

in the dim and distant past Angus posted some links which you may want to browse

(I hope the links are all still active)

.....

Opiate receptors presynaptically inhibit transmission of

excitatory pathways including acetylcholine, the

catecholamines, serotonin, and substance P

http://www.pharmcentral.com/endorphins.htm

http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/tjps/kyoto/jjp/TOC98-78(1)/98-78-093.html

http://www.a2corporation.com/

http://www.commercial-companies.com/tob/Thesis.html

......

and Dr Lams site has some interesting things to say about milk

http://www.lammd.com/A3R_brief_in_doc_format/lone_atrial_fib.cfm

and I've just done a search for " human consumption " AND " dairy "

at PubMed

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Search & DB=PubMed)

enough reading there to keep you happy until the cows come home

To be honest, having eliminated (not 100% but massive amounts) dairy for several

months and seen no change (good or bad) I don't think it's going to help me.

That's not to say it might not help others.

In the past 5 years although I have done very many experiments I have been

unable

to affect my AF in any way. (this includes experiment with 7 different meds).

Should I stop experimenting? It seems like I can't rely on the doctors to fix my

problem so I'm left with very little choice.

I hope we all find are own Yankee Doodle Dandy

All the best.

--

D

[Guest guest]

>Message: 2

> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2003 09:46:41 EDT

> From: B6426@...

>Subject: Re: Re: Coumadin / Blood thinners

>

>My understanding is that the dose in the poison that kills rats is a great

>deal higher than any of us humans is supposed to get. If our dosage isn't

>regulated properly I suppose we could suffer the same fate as the rats!!!

>Brenta

It is my understanding that there is one significent difference between rat

poison and coumadin. Although rat poison is warfarin it also contains ground

glass, to make sure that the rats bleed to death.

>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Get your free @ecosse.net account

http://www.ecosse.net

Scotland's Free Internet Service Provider

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/2/2003 10:02:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

james@... writes:

h

<< has seen a lot

of success by stopping dairy. I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong but

I think she is also still taking verapamil. So we can't say that the

elimination of dairy ALONE has cured her AF.

here's where I might be making 5

Verapamil is a calcium channel blocker and dairy if a fine source of

calcium. Perhaps this combination is what has helped that verapamil

alone would not fix? >>

,

You are absolutely right, and I suspect that my E.P. may agree with your idea

because he was adamant that I should not stop my medication even though I had

been afib free for eight months the last time I saw him. He certainly didn't

seem to believe that stopping dairy alone would be sufficient to justify

stopping the meds. He didn't elaborate on reasons for continuing the

medication,

but he repeatedly said, " Let's not rock the boat. What you're doing is

working, so why change it? " Yes, I am still taking 240 m.g. of Verapamil daily

and

probably will be for the foreseeable future. I also continue to practice many

of the afib avoidance strategies which had become habit by the time I dropped

dairy, such as avoiding other trigger foods like onions, acid, grease, sugar,

caffeine, drinking cold water carefully, watching posture while eating, and

on and on. I won't repeat them all here because neither these strategies nor

the Verapamil were enough to prevent my afib before I added the component of

stopping dairy. (Again, these are personal triggers for me, and this doesn't

mean that everyone should avoid acidic foods, onions, etc.) I don't know if

continuing these strategies is necessary now, but I am following my E.P.'s

advice and trying not to rock the boat. I suspect that if I were to start

drinking

coffee or alcohol or even just a big cool glass of lemonade, I would be back

on my old afib schedule, for example. I'm certainly not going to try to find

out. I did find out this past week that my old enemy, stress, can certainly

cause ectopic beats and runs of tachycardia which fortunately did not lead to

afib as they certainly would have in the past before my dairy experiment.

Just as meds affect different people differently, I'm sure that dairy

elimination would have differing results, also, working for some but not for

others.

I think I mentioned before that my older brother in permanent afib tried

dairy elimination when he saw the good results I experienced, but his outcome

was

a vitamin B12 deficiency which caused him considerable trouble. Dairy

elimination undoubtedly will not work for everyone just as Dofetilide and

Sotalol do

not work for everyone, but it is certainly easier, less expensive, and less

risky than some other afib treatments. Although the dairy avoidance strategy is

not as entertaining as standing on one's right foot and singing " Yankee

Doodle, " :-) if dairy elimination works, it's certainly worth the relatively

innocuous pangs of deprivation. I consider myself to be very fortunate in being

among the apparently small number who have stopped their afib by stopping dairy.

Thanks again to Angus for showing me the way. :-)

in sinus in Seattle :-)

[Guest guest]

My AF was worse when

> I cut out milk for 7 months and all dairy.Since drinking milk

> again,and going on the demand approach with Propafanone my AF has

> improved.

> ie

>

In my case when I quit dairy the afib got worse for the first 3

months

before it improved and my last episode was at 8 months,s afib was

worse on the 6 and 7th month,She was in afib 50% of the time on those

two months and by the 9th month shes been in mostly sinus.

ie if being dairy free makes your afib worse then this is a good

thing, it was the only clue I had to go on.Angus

[Guest guest]

>

> Angus too has reported success (Angus are you med free?)

I have never used meds for afib.After 7 years of worsning SVT and then

10 years afib I never managed a diagnoses of anything .I live remote

and didnt like going anywhere in an episode.The one time I did make it

to A & E the docs treated it like it was a one off and told me to not

to do it again like it was my fault, they didnt lissen to a word I

said.Its hard to write about without using swear words.Angus