Re: VegSource.Com strikes again: The Truth About the WAPF

[Guest guest]

I need to chime in here; while researching I found that the Centenarians

that lived on the least meat, had high levels of disease earlier in

their lives. In fact, when Davies studied the Vilcabambans, he

stated: " Yet, when they are infants, 40 percent die before they

reach their fourth year from the usual epidemics and viruses – the

civil registers tells us this. But in the process of growing up they

become immune to many diseases and after their teens they seem to be

very hardy physically. " ( Davies The Centenarians of the

Andes, Barrie and , Limited 1975; http://www.soilandhealth.org

<http://www.soilandhealth.org/> ).

Also, " according to [1956], Hunzans suffer from a variety of

problems, including malaria, dysentery, worms, impetigo, goiter, dental

decay, rickets, and tuberculosis "

(http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-3i.shtml

<http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-3i.shtml> ) and

" According to the analysis of Schmid, Hunzans are less healthy than

Georgians/Abkhasians because they are deficient in animal foods "

(http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-3i.shtml

<http://www.beyondveg.com/tu-j-l/raw-cooked/raw-cooked-3i.shtml> ).

So, apparently long life associated with a diet deficient in healthy

animal products may be due to surviving the earlier problems associated

with that diet, and building a great many immunities which they may

carry with them into their older years. Unfortunately, one doesn't

know when they are born if they will be part of the surviving group or

the child mortality group.

Jan

>Ken,

> In humans, a longer life can be associated with more ill health at the

> end of that life or with great health through an even longer life. A

> simple life expectancy statistic doesn't help us distinguish, but we

> can certainly distinguish with more data.

>...

> Another point, moving away from dogs, is that our

> > current medical science can do wonders to keep a person alive,

whether

> > that person's own body can support it or not.

>

> True, but good health can keep people living past 100. If a diet

> can't support that, then, it isn't the best diet. I don't think

> Fuhrman substantiated very well that the Masai and Inuits diet can't

> support longevity, but were he hypothetically correct, it would be a

> valid criticism of the shortcomings of their diet (or lifestyle, or

> whatever factors contributed to the failure of longevity to be

> supported).

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

you are right it doesn't apply to the Okinawans because they

eat more animal based foods- mostly fish, but also pork. The point was

that the groups that ate the least animal foods – the Hunzans and

the Vilcabambans – had poor health in the general population, even

though some made it to a very long life, while the groups that have a

much higher animal-based diet, the Okinawans, & Georgians (both the

Abkhasians, & the Azerbaijanis) enjoy greater health AND a long life.

Jan

>

> Jan,

>

> > So, apparently long life associated with a diet deficient in healthy

> > animal products may be due to surviving the earlier problems

associated

> > with that diet, and building a great many immunities which they may

> > carry with them into their older years. Unfortunately, one doesn't

> > know when they are born if they will be part of the surviving group

or

> > the child mortality group.

>

> I don't know about the Hunzans or Georgians, but Okinawa not only is

> home to the largest proportion of centennarians, but has had the

> highest or one of the highest life expectancies at birth since after

> World War II. So in the case of Okinaway, this does not apply.

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

--- Jan <bellasol.organics@...> wrote:

> you are right it doesn't apply to the Okinawans because they

> eat more animal based foods- mostly fish, but also pork. The point

> was that the groups that ate the least animal foods – the Hunzans

> and the Vilcabambans – had poor health in the general population,

> even though some made it to a very long life, while the groups that

> have a much higher animal-based diet, the Okinawans, & Georgians

> (both the Abkhasians, & the Azerbaijanis) enjoy greater health AND

> a long life.

Jan,

It would be interesting to compare mortality by age group in these

people. Of course, that still doesn't tell us about quality of life.

Out of curiosity, I pulled up some mortality data by age for the US:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/pdf/mortality/nvsr54_19t01.pdf

I thought it was interesting that of the various groups that were

tabulated, the " American Indian or Alaska Native female " had the

lowest death rate per 100,000 population for ages 85 and older, with

7,102. The group with the highest death rate at that age is the one

that includes me - " Non-Hispanic white male " , with 15.558.

In every category, the age group with the highest 10-year survival

rate was 5-14 years. The group that had the lowest all-age mortality

was " Asian or Pacific Islander female " with 276 versus the group with

the highest " Non-Hispanic white male " with 958 deaths per 100,000.

For ages 55-64 and 65-74, the " Asian or Pacific Islander female " group

had the lowest mortality of any group.

Below are some of the CDC stats.

U.S. death rates per 100,000 in 2004:

All ages ..............816.7

Under 1 year ..........682.8

1-4 years ..............30.0

5-14 years .............16.6

15-24 years ............79.2

25-34 years ...........100.5

35-44 years ...........191.1

45-54 years ...........423.1

55-64 years ...........905.9

65-74 years .........2,165.6

75-84 years .........5,291.0

85 years and over ..13,896.0

Asian or Pacific Islander female:

All ages ..............276.1

Under 1 year1 .........398.5

1-4 years ..............20.1

5-14 years ..............8.5

15-24 years ............23.3

25-34 years ............27.2

35-44 years ............52.9

45-54 years ...........137.8

55-64 years ...........335.3

65-74 years ...........942.3

75-84 years .........2,570.7

85 years and over ...8,400.3

American Indian or Alaska Native female:

All ages ..............379.3

Under 1 year ..........724.8

1-4 years ..............55.7

5-14 years .............20.2

15-24 years ............63.2

25-34 years ...........102.5

35-44 years ...........188.2

45-54 years ...........337.6

55-64 years ...........702.3

65-74 years .........1,711.7

75-84 years .........3,524.8

85 years and over ...7,108.2

Non-Hispanic white male:

All ages ..............958.1

Under 1 year1 .........629.1

1-4 years ..............28.8

5-14 years .............17.9

15-24 years ...........104.2

25-34 years ...........129.1

35-44 years ...........232.9

45-54 years ...........507.2

55-64 years .........1,072.1

65-74 years .........2,624.0

75-84 years .........6,483.7

85 years and over ..15,558.2

Non-Hispanic black male:

All ages ..............811.5

Under 1 year1 .......1,404.1

1-4 years ..............50.4

5-14 years .............26.4

15-24 years ...........165.8

25-34 years ...........259.7

35-44 years ...........404.0

45-54 years ...........967.3

55-64 years .........1,971.3

65-74 years .........3,858.2

75-84 years .........7,757.0

85 years and over ..14,618.9

I do want to know how there can be fractions of people dieing?

<curiosity killed the cat? I hope not>

[Guest guest]

--- <oz4caster@...> wrote:

> In every category, the age group with the highest 10-year survival

> rate was 5-14 years.

On further thought, that should be 1-year survival rate (for 2004).

It would also be interesting to see mortality by age stats for people

born in a particular year.

[Guest guest]

My research focused more on what the groups were eating, since there are

some vocal vegetarians writing about the connection between long life

and close to zero animal consumption. I found that all the groups

consumed animal products in some form, and some (the more healthy

groups) consumed a good deal more than others.

As far as the longevity authenticity, there are some questions as to the

true life span of the Centenarians. It seems it is quite an honor to be

old in these societies, so there has been some exaggeration of how old

one is. The Georgians seem to have better written birth records.

According to Azerbaijan International: " Azerbaijan has one of the

highest rates of longevity in the world. In the 1981 census, Azerbaijan

recorded 14,486 people aged 100 or older. In other words, 48.3 people

per 100,000 inhabitants... "

You may want to check out this web site, it had some interesting

information on it:

http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/23_folder/23_articles/23_c\

entenarians.html

<http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/23_folder/23_articles/23_\

centenarians.html>

At any rate, they still live very old lives and most are in good

physical and mental condition at these advanced ages (approx. 90-130??

or so).

A really interesting bit of data that came out was that they like to

brag about their sexual abilities in these later years. Even if they

are more talk than action, the fact that it is still a big deal to them

says something of their mental alertness and perceived physical

abilities. They must at least think they appear able, in order to brag

to the investigators.

Jan

> I've read that later research indicated the Georgians and Hunzas

> didn't live quite as long as originally thought. Do you know anything

> about this?

>

> Chris

>

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

,

Mortality by age groups in the societies that have high numbers of

centenarians would be very useful. It would also be very useful to see

stats like wanted, of life-expectancy for those over 50. Both for

various countries or regions and for the past, say 200 years. You need

to go back at least before the end of the 1800's when many new products,

such as refined sugar hit the populations.

Oh, and fractions of deaths?? --Sort of like never seeing the .7 child

in the 2.7 birth rate

~Jan

>

> It would be interesting to compare mortality by age group in these

> people. Of course, that still doesn't tell us about quality of life.

>

> Out of curiosity, I pulled up some mortality data by age for the US:

> http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/pdf/mortality/nvsr54_19t01.pdf

> ...

> I do want to know how there can be fractions of people dieing?

>

> <curiosity killed the cat? I hope not>

>

[Guest guest]

Or maybe you are saying that the benefits from the

> raw fruit diet have continued with the new diet without the downside.

>

yes, that's my experience.

>

> Sounds pretty good to me. How do you eat your grains?

>

I am currently experimenting with soaked raw oats from rawbakery.com.

They are completely raw. I soak them in salty water for about a day

or two before I eat them. I enjoy the occasional bit of steamed brown

rice, if I can't get my oats.

I have seen major teeth improvements using the triple combo of coconut

and coconut oil, organ meats, and shrimp brains and/or fish eggs. All

three together have really helped me. I also use Tooth Soap.

mike

[Guest guest]

I wonder how shrimp brains are extracted... a reaaally tiny spoon?

Christa

> I have seen major teeth improvements using the triple combo of

coconut

> and coconut oil, organ meats, and shrimp brains

[Guest guest]

>

> I wonder how shrimp brains are extracted... a reaaally tiny spoon?

>

> Christa

My front teeth.

mike