Re: VegSource.Com strikes again: The Truth About the WAPF

[Guest guest]

The Inuit and Masai had clearly better health than the mostly-

vegetarian Bantu. Price's main stated reason for his journey was

to find a plant that made eating animal products unnecessary.

I cordially invite the good folks over at vegsource to read the book,

and, if they think Dr. Price was lying or wrong, to visit the Masai

and Bantu and see for themselves.

mike

>

> http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_dietary_myths.htm

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

I love how they mentioned the meat based formula but then go on to point out

that cow's milk based formula can cause iron deficiency. Um, like duh,

that's why you use the meat based formula too!

-Lana

On 12/29/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

>

> http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/fuhrman_dietary_myths.htm

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

If we are to believe Price's statements about the Masai versus the

Bantu, then what Fuhrman is asking us to assume is that a diet that

produces better teeth and bones will also produce a shorter lifespan.

I find that unlikely. How about you, Chris?

I tried all that vegetarian nonsense, raw vegan lowfat fruitarian,

etc. for years. My teeth couldn't take it. I will be the first to

say that a raw fruitarian diet with some greens will give you plenty of

energy, and can do a lot for your health, depending on the quality of

the fruit. However, I need my teeth, and the fruit diet wasn't letting

that happen.

mike

> On the other hand, Price didn't study their lifespan, which is what

> relates to the author's claim. However, of the two references he

> listed for a short lifespan among the Masai, one appeared to be some

> type of general Kenyan tourist web site with no immediately available

> information on lifespan, and the other was a WHO web page that simply

> said, paraphrasing, " the web page you are looking for does not exist

> in english. "

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

Lana,

> I love how they mentioned the meat based formula but then go on to point out

> that cow's milk based formula can cause iron deficiency. Um, like duh,

> that's why you use the meat based formula too!

Yes, that was one of the weak points of a generally weak article.

He'd have made his case much stronger if he had presented a

nutritional analysis of breast milk and compared it to that of the

meat-based formula. Instead, he didn't even tell us which nutrients

it is deficient in.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

--- Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> But, that tells us little, or rather nothing, about the lifespan of

> the Masai.

See " Dairy and the Maasai " :

http://www.raw-milk-facts.com/maasai_T3.html

================================================================

Interestingly, even though they eat almost double the recommended

portion of animal fats, their cholesterol levels are slightly lower

than normal. They also show very little evidence of cardiovascular

disease.

Couple abundant regular exercise with the consumption of over 25 plant

foods rich in anti-oxidants (some stronger than vitamins C and E), and

you'd expect to hear that the Maasai have a long life expectancy.

Four Maasai near Lekerruki Lodge Sadly, that's not the case. Continual

development encroaching on their semi-arid grazing lands, poor

supplies of clean water, lack of sanitation, non-existent medical care

and high levels of waterborne disease all take their toll. Many of

their children die before reaching the age of five.

In today's modern world, and even with the healing power of raw milk

on their side, the average Maasai male can expect to live for only 43

years, compared to 77 years for males in the U.S.

================================================================

Also, I ran across some rebuttals to Dr Fuhrman by Barry Groves:

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-how-a-highprotein-diet-works.htm\

l

And a second rebuttal:

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-responding-to-comments-about-dr-\

atkins.html#discussion

And still more " The Misinformation of Barry Groves and Weston Price " :

http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/diet-myths-the-misinformation-of-barry-grov\

es-and-weston-price.html

Maybe you would care to post a rebuttal at that last link?

It still has a post comment box at the bottom - go for it!

(let us know if you do)

Dr Fuhrman extolls his book with 1500 references.

I wonder if he has seen Colpo's book with 4000 references?

[Guest guest]

Red meat causes colon cancer? Dr. Fuhrman in his continued review

of WAPF and Dr. Mercola's positions stated that even small amounts of

red meat is colon cancer promoting.

My mother was a strict vegetarian (but not vegan) for 10 years. She ate

very little processed food (except soy products!), almost no sugar or

refined carbs most of her life. Prior to becoming a complete

vegetarian, she ate chicken and fish but very little red meat, used

olive oil instead of saturated fats, and followed many of the popular

dietary advice in the 70's and 80's. While she smoked in the 50's, she

had quit for over 20 years, and exercised regularly. She was trim,

looked like she was my sister instead of my mother, and often went out

dancing at 60. She was also studying to become a nutritionist, but was

looking for a " vegetarian based school " (back then it was still

`new'). At 64 she developed colon cancer and died exactly one

year later.

Every one was shocked. So was I, so I started researching and one of

the most important items I read, that lead me away from vegetarianism,

was that T-cells were needed to form anti-bodies, and T-cells were built

from proteins. I knew my mother was eating very little protein. This

experience and subsequent knowledge changed my life and my

children's life.

I know this is totally unscientific, and just one person's experience

without taking into account possible other mitigating circumstances, but

I also know she is not the only vegetarian cut down quickly by cancer.

While being a vegetarian may not have caused her cancer, it certainly

did nothing to keep her from succumbing to it very quickly.

It's amazing to me that these vegetarian fanatics continue to preach

their version of " Scientific Studies " and put such a large part

of our population –especially young people- at risk!

~Jan, LaCrosse WAPF Chapter Leader

[Guest guest]

Jan, so sorry about your mother.

In my own personal experience, every single vegetarian I know is

particularly afraid of cancer, and that is what they get. It's like

target fixation or something.

Contrast that with - now, don't laugh - I'm reading the biography of

Truman by McCullough. Truman hated fad diets but ate fatty meats and

organ meats:

" I eat no bread but one piece of toast at breakfast, no butter, no

sugar, no sweets. Usually have fruit, one egg, a strip of bacon and

half a glass of skim milk for breakfast; liver and bacon or

sweetbreads or ham or fish and spinach and another nonfattening

vegetable for lunch with fruit for dessert. For dinner I have a fruit

cup, steak, a couple of non-fattening vegetable s and an ice, orange,

pineapple or raspberry... So -- I maintain my waist line and can wear

suits bought in 1935 (15 years previous) "

Oh also, except the morning bourbon.

" The morning bourbon - an ounce of Old Grandad or Wild Turkey taken

after the two-mile walk and a few setting-up exercises and the

rubdown that usually followed the morning walk - had also become

routine. "

cause of death at 88: " debility " - heart failure.

Connie

[Guest guest]

> Whether it is likely or not, there is nothing illogical or impossible

> about it, and therefore it is not valid to assume that Price's tooth

> decay statistics can be used to estimate their lifespan.

I may have to say I respectfully disagree. Bone and teeth are being

constantly dissolved and re-formed throughout life. I'm not sure how

much sense it makes to assume that the same diet (including lots of

organ meats) that supports that process of bone dissolving and re-

forming better would cause faster aging and higher mortality than a

vegetarian diet. I'm not saying I think it's impossible, but it goes

against all common sense, IMHO.

mike

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately, longevity is a deceptive statistic. As we all know,

statistics can vary quite a bit depending on the agenda of the

publisher of those statistics. For instance, it is accepted as a

general rule that smaller dogs live longer than larger dogs. I don't

think anyone would argue that. But larger dogs do not have a lot of

the quality of life issues that smaller dogs have. Larger dogs

decline quickly when their time is coming. Smaller dogs linger on,

developing a multitude of problems that they may live with for years

before their time. Another point, moving away from dogs, is that our

current medical science can do wonders to keep a person alive, whether

that person's own body can support it or not. Part of the problem,

especially with people like Furman, is that they (the scientific

community) are too focused and aren't seeing the big picture. They

don't take subjects other than their specific science into account.

We can't make blanket assertions, like saying that eggs are bad

because they're high in cholesterol, without a wider range of backing

from other subjects. Instead, they're all too quick to throw their

research out for public opinion, in order to gain financial backing.

And the public, being what it is, just can't wait to step up to the

next greatest thing. Our modern communications are not always a good

thing.

Ken

>

> ,

>

> > If we are to believe Price's statements about the Masai versus the

> > Bantu, then what Fuhrman is asking us to assume is that a diet that

> > produces better teeth and bones will also produce a shorter lifespan.

> > I find that unlikely. How about you, Chris?

>

> Whether it is likely or not, there is nothing illogical or impossible

> about it, and therefore it is not valid to assume that Price's tooth

> decay statistics can be used to estimate their lifespan. If there is

> good data out there showing that the Masai rarely live beyond 60, then

> we would have to accept both findings -- their observed tooth decay

> rate and their observed lifespan. Whether or not that is the case,

> however, I do not yet know.

>

> > I tried all that vegetarian nonsense, raw vegan lowfat fruitarian,

> > etc. for years. My teeth couldn't take it. I will be the first to

> > say that a raw fruitarian diet with some greens will give you

plenty of

> > energy, and can do a lot for your health, depending on the quality of

> > the fruit. However, I need my teeth, and the fruit diet wasn't

letting

> > that happen.

>

> My experience with vegetarianism was awful too, though I didn't do raw

> or fruitarian. There is good data from a large-scale study of raw

> vegans showing that ill health is the norm among them. But, that

> tells us little, or rather nothing, about the lifespan of the Masai.

>

> Chris

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

Connie,

My German grandmother [Oma] also drank a shot every morning.. she

preferred vodka. She claimed her morning beverage is the reason she

still had all of her teeth. She died at 96. Ate an NT diet save

her fabulous homemade " peasant bread. " Does anyone know if it was a

common practice back in the day to drink a modest amount of distilled

liquor in the morning [and not for the rest of the day]? Oma was born

in 1904.

Christa

I'm reading the biography of

> Truman by McCullough. Truman hated fad diets but ate fatty meats

and

> organ meats:

> [excerpt removed]

> Oh also, except the morning bourbon.

>

> " The morning bourbon - an ounce of Old Grandad or Wild Turkey taken

> after the two-mile walk and a few setting-up exercises and the

> rubdown that usually followed the morning walk - had also become

> routine. "

>

> cause of death at 88: " debility " - heart failure.

>

> Connie

>

[Guest guest]

My great-great grandmother that died at 106 took a shot of whiskey every

night before bed and sometimes in the morning too. She said it is what

made her healthy and strong.

She had never been to a hospital in her life unless she was visiting

someone else. She was born in a covered wagon traveling across the us

and died at a relatives house. She was NEVER sick. She was amazing.

She also still made dandelion wine every year and made lots of bone

broth/soups. She said that was another one of her secrets. She died in

her sleep one night after telling everyone good bye. She said she was

done and ready to go on to heaven. Amazing. I can only hope to die

like that.

Re: VegSource.Com strikes again: The Truth About the WAPF

Connie,

My German grandmother [Oma] also drank a shot every morning.. she

preferred vodka. She claimed her morning beverage is the reason she

still had all of her teeth. She died at 96. Ate an NT diet save

her fabulous homemade " peasant bread. " Does anyone know if it was a

common practice back in the day to drink a modest amount of distilled

liquor in the morning [and not for the rest of the day]? Oma was born

in 1904.

Christa

..

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/ms

gId=88258/stime=1167705446/nc1=4299916/nc2=3848643/nc3=4025377>

[Guest guest]

> My great-great grandmother that died at 106 took a shot of whiskey

> every

> night before bed and sometimes in the morning too. She said it is what

> made her healthy and strong.

My great-grandma had a little tipple of I think it was bourbon every

night. I've started taking a little homemade dandelion wine at night

once a week or so for my liver. I have to be careful as I'm an

alcoholic. I'd worry about it if I liked the taste of the wine

better--it's really tonic-y!

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

http://www.siprelle.com

NOTICE: The National Security Agency may have read this email without

warning, warrant, or notice.

[Guest guest]

That same biography said it was part of Truman's culture - the

pioneer one I guess - that regular shots were advised after age 60 to

keep things running.

Connie

>

> My great-great grandmother that died at 106 took a shot of whiskey

every

> night before bed and sometimes in the morning too. She said it is

what

> made her healthy and strong.

>

> She had never been to a hospital in her life unless she was visiting

> someone else. She was born in a covered wagon traveling across the

us

> and died at a relatives house. She was NEVER sick. She was

amazing.

> She also still made dandelion wine every year and made lots of bone

> broth/soups. She said that was another one of her secrets. She

died in

> her sleep one night after telling everyone good bye. She said she

was

> done and ready to go on to heaven. Amazing. I can only hope to die

> like that.

>

>

>

>

> Re: VegSource.Com strikes again: The Truth About the

WAPF

>

>

>

> Connie,

>

> My German grandmother [Oma] also drank a shot every morning.. she

> preferred vodka. She claimed her morning beverage is the reason she

> still had all of her teeth. She died at 96. Ate an NT diet save

> her fabulous homemade " peasant bread. " Does anyone know if it was a

> common practice back in the day to drink a modest amount of

distilled

> liquor in the morning [and not for the rest of the day]? Oma was

born

> in 1904.

>

> Christa

>

> .

>

> <http://geo./serv?

s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/ms

> gId=88258/stime=1167705446/nc1=4299916/nc2=3848643/nc3=4025377>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 1/1/07, Lynn Siprelle <lynn@...> wrote:

> > My great-great grandmother that died at 106 took a shot of whiskey

> > every

> > night before bed and sometimes in the morning too. She said it is what

> > made her healthy and strong.

>

> My great-grandma had a little tipple of I think it was bourbon every

> night. I've started taking a little homemade dandelion wine at night

> once a week or so for my liver. I have to be careful as I'm an

> alcoholic. I'd worry about it if I liked the taste of the wine

> better--it's really tonic-y!

>

> Lynn S.

My great grandfather used to drink a shot of whiskey every morning,

" bring me my medicine! " I used to hate the stuff. He would

smoke cigars and drink whiskey and I would think ugh!!!!!. But he

lived to a ripe old age. And today I smoke quality cigars and drink

single malt scotch whenever I get a chance. In fact my mom has always

said I was just like her dad, even before I adopted these habits.

___

What is the ballot? It is neither more nor less than a paper

representative of the bayonet, the billy, and the bullet. It is a

labor-saving device for ascertaining on which side force lies and

bowing to the inevitable. The voice of the majority saves bloodshed,

but it is no less the arbitrament of force than is the decree of the

most absolute of despots backed by the most powerful of armies.

~ R. Tucker

[Guest guest]

> My great grandfather used to drink a shot of whiskey every morning,

> " bring me my medicine! " I used to hate the stuff. He would

> smoke cigars and drink whiskey and I would think ugh!!!!!. But he

> lived to a ripe old age. And today I smoke quality cigars and drink

> single malt scotch whenever I get a chance. In fact my mom has always

> said I was just like her dad, even before I adopted these habits.

>

>

That's a neat story .

I always laugh when I read clueless fitness trainers agonize, why are

people not going to the gym, still eating what they like, smoking

cigars and drinking whiskey?

How could they not know we all want to be Winston Churchill?

Heroic in your working years, plenty of art, wit and indulgences later.

Connie

[Guest guest]

On 1/2/07, <slethnobotanist@...> wrote:

> My great grandfather used to drink a shot of whiskey every morning,

> " bring me my medicine! " I used to hate the stuff. He would

> smoke cigars and drink whiskey and I would think ugh!!!!!. But he

> lived to a ripe old age. And today I smoke quality cigars and drink

> single malt scotch whenever I get a chance. In fact my mom has always

> said I was just like her dad, even before I adopted these habits.

>

>

Ooops, that should be grandfather, not great grandfather. And my mom

says I *am* just like her dad, not *was* just like her dad, since I'm

still around, LOL!

--

What is the ballot? It is neither more nor less than a paper

representative of the bayonet, the billy, and the bullet. It is a

labor-saving device for ascertaining on which side force lies and

bowing to the inevitable. The voice of the majority saves bloodshed,

but it is no less the arbitrament of force than is the decree of the

most absolute of despots backed by the most powerful of armies.

~ R. Tucker

[Guest guest]

On 1/2/07, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> > My great grandfather used to drink a shot of whiskey every morning,

> > " bring me my medicine! " I used to hate the stuff. He would

> > smoke cigars and drink whiskey and I would think ugh!!!!!. But he

> > lived to a ripe old age. And today I smoke quality cigars and drink

> > single malt scotch whenever I get a chance. In fact my mom has always

> > said I was just like her dad, even before I adopted these habits.

> >

> >

>

> That's a neat story .

>

> I always laugh when I read clueless fitness trainers agonize, why are

> people not going to the gym, still eating what they like, smoking

> cigars and drinking whiskey?

>

> How could they not know we all want to be Winston Churchill?

> Heroic in your working years, plenty of art, wit and indulgences later.

>

> Connie

Thats good Connie. Nothing like causing a few fits for the lifestyle

nazis among us.

And I always get a laugh when someone from one of the many lists I'm

on posts something about how to dramatically increase your lifespan by

living in a hut, hardly eating, and subsisting on dusts and termites

or something to that effect. Now that might be okay for that guy or

gal but as a way of life for everybody?

No thanks, since I'm going to eventually check out anyway, I'd rather

go out like Sir Winston, or Burns, or my granddad, living and

loving life to the very end (or nearly so)... " a man in full " to borrow

a phrase from Tom Wolfe.

--

What is the ballot? It is neither more nor less than a paper

representative of the bayonet, the billy, and the bullet. It is a

labor-saving device for ascertaining on which side force lies and

bowing to the inevitable. The voice of the majority saves bloodshed,

but it is no less the arbitrament of force than is the decree of the

most absolute of despots backed by the most powerful of armies.

~ R. Tucker

[Guest guest]

On 1/1/07, dishchrista <dishchrista@...> wrote:

> Connie,

>

> My German grandmother [Oma] also drank a shot every morning.. she

> preferred vodka. She claimed her morning beverage is the reason she

> still had all of her teeth. She died at 96. Ate an NT diet save

> her fabulous homemade " peasant bread. " Does anyone know if it was a

> common practice back in the day to drink a modest amount of distilled

> liquor in the morning [and not for the rest of the day]? Oma was born

> in 1904.

>

> Christa

It depends on what you mean by " back in the day. " The addiction

specialist Herbert Fingarette, who wrote an excellent book called

_Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as Disease_ , which lays to

rest the unitary disease concept model of alcoholism so popular in our

day (especially among the " genes as destiny " crowd) noted that

colonial Americans did imbibe quite frequently, starting in the

morning, and did not have near the societal problems we have with

alcohol today.

--

What is the ballot? It is neither more nor less than a paper

representative of the bayonet, the billy, and the bullet. It is a

labor-saving device for ascertaining on which side force lies and

bowing to the inevitable. The voice of the majority saves bloodshed,

but it is no less the arbitrament of force than is the decree of the

most absolute of despots backed by the most powerful of armies.

~ R. Tucker

[Guest guest]

> It depends on what you mean by " back in the day. " The addiction

> specialist Herbert Fingarette, who wrote an excellent book called

> _Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as Disease_ , which lays to

> rest the unitary disease concept model of alcoholism so popular in our

> day (especially among the " genes as destiny " crowd) noted that

> colonial Americans did imbibe quite frequently, starting in the

> morning, and did not have near the societal problems we have with

> alcohol today.

>

>

I read in another of McCullough's biographies, " , " that two

of and Abigail's sons were alcoholics and they parented grandkids.

A familiar story now too.

I agree that it's not a unitary anything, but we have learned a lot in

the 50 years since the disease model legitimized study and opened up

research. We know how brain chemistry is different for families where

alcoholism happens, for example. Before then people who got in trouble

were just disgusting and weak right? Shall we put up our dukes on the

tiring issue of which causal models makes a difference in personal

responsibility for management? nah, let's not.

Connie

[Guest guest]

On 1/2/07, cbrown2008 <cbrown2008@...> wrote:

> > It depends on what you mean by " back in the day. " The addiction

> > specialist Herbert Fingarette, who wrote an excellent book called

> > _Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as Disease_ , which lays to

> > rest the unitary disease concept model of alcoholism so popular in our

> > day (especially among the " genes as destiny " crowd) noted that

> > colonial Americans did imbibe quite frequently, starting in the

> > morning, and did not have near the societal problems we have with

> > alcohol today.

> >

> >

>

> I read in another of McCullough's biographies, " , " that two

> of and Abigail's sons were alcoholics and they parented grandkids.

> A familiar story now too.

Yes but tangential to my point. I didn't say there were no problems

but only not near as widespread then as now. Given the modern terrain

and approach, it would suggest things should be the other way around,

which they are not.

> I agree that it's not a unitary anything,

Well then you have conceded the point, and put yourself at odds with

much of the apparent research you reference below.

> but we have learned a lot in

> the 50 years since the disease model legitimized study and opened up

> research.

The last fifty years has produced the unitary disease concept of alcoholism.

> We know how brain chemistry is different for families where

> alcoholism happens, for example.

It might be but then does that mean it *must* occur? I believe that we

all have predispositions to various issues, problems, etc. as a result

of our ancestral backgrounds, nutritional and otherwise. But a

predisposition is not the same as a guarantee such will happen, only

that if I provide the necessary substance, my " sin " will most likely

be in the area in which I am genetically *or* culturally predisposed.

The question becomes, and which I think the author answers quite well,

what is the " food " for that terrain. His answer is that the science

does not support some unitary disease model of alcoholism as the food

for such behavior.

> Before then people who got in trouble

> were just disgusting and weak right?

I think rather than jump to what you might think is being said, if

this is really of interest to you, you would be better served reading

the book before drawing any conclusions, and then I would be happy to

interact with you on the subject. The author was not writing " before

then " and he reviewed the *science* behind the current approach and

found it does not support the modern thesis. Nor is he denying

alcoholism or its attendant problems but rather he demonstrates the

science underlying the current theory behind alcoholism is unsound.

And no, clearly people become drunkards for many reasons that have

nothing to do with being disgusting and weak. In fact he takes great

pains in the book to point that out, because understanding such will

greatly affect how we will intervene to help someone caught in the

grip of alcohol, he just says the research *does not* support the

unitary disease concept as the reason why.

Surely on this list we are no strangers to the idea that the

mainstream view is not supported when the actual studies are looked at

in detail.

> Shall we put up our dukes on the

> tiring issue of which causal models makes a difference in personal

> responsibility for management? nah, let's not.

Okay, but what one believes about why something occurred will greatly

affect one's approach to that occurrence. So it is a legitimate issue.

However since at this point you are incorrect in what you think he (or

me is) might be saying ( " before then people who got in trouble were

just disgusting and weak right? " ), it would not be a fruitful

exercise.

And besides we will have plenty of opportunity to duke it out when I

revive an old thread that I never got a chance to finish but where

someone else (not you) actually jumped to some final conclusions based

on some very limited information :-)

--

What is the ballot? It is neither more nor less than a paper

representative of the bayonet, the billy, and the bullet. It is a

labor-saving device for ascertaining on which side force lies and

bowing to the inevitable. The voice of the majority saves bloodshed,

but it is no less the arbitrament of force than is the decree of the

most absolute of despots backed by the most powerful of armies.

~ R. Tucker

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> My great-great grandmother that died at 106 took a shot of whiskey every

> night before bed and sometimes in the morning too. ...

> She also still made dandelion wine every year and made lots of bone

> broth/soups.

Very interesting! Any insight on how much meat she tended to eat, and

how much of it was red meat? Salt?

Thanks!

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

,

> She also still made dandelion wine every year and made lots of bone

> broth/soups.

By the way, my first impression was that these two of the three

secrets you mentioned are notable for their liver detox-promoting

properties. Well, I don't know about dandelion wine, but dandelion

root at least is present in most liver detox formulations, and bone

broths are an excellent source of glycine, which is a main player in

phase II detox.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

I don't remember specifically but I know she didn't shy away from any

food. She was a wonderful cook. I remember everything tasting great.

Lots of meat and greens from what I remember. She was what I would call

a " hearty " woman. She only gave birth to one child but was married 9

times...they all died before her. She married that last time at 95!

Re: VegSource.Com strikes again: The Truth About the WAPF

Hi ,

> My great-great grandmother that died at 106 took a shot of whiskey

every

> night before bed and sometimes in the morning too. ...

> She also still made dandelion wine every year and made lots of bone

> broth/soups.

Very interesting! Any insight on how much meat she tended to eat, and

how much of it was red meat? Salt?

Thanks!

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.choleste <http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com>

rol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>

> On the other hand, it seems to me that " energy " is not necessarily a

> good tracking device for overall health, at least in the short term.

> While healthy people tend to be " energetic " (subject to individual

> differences of course), " energetic " people aren't necessarily healthy

> and in fact may be catabolizing their own body or have other factors

> that allow them to be " energetic " despite poor health.

>

>

Excellent points, given the limited iinformation. I personally found

that there were plenty of other health benefits that have continued

into my 95% raw organs/shellfish/whole grains + a little fruit diet.

In both cases, I no longer get the itchy bumps from bug bites, I am

much less likely to sunburn, I have little to no body odor, my knees

are far more resilient to squatting, I recover from injuries much more

quickly, and the list goes on and on. The things I have noticed from

the raw organs and shellfish are

1. Emotional stability

2. Better teeth

3. Greater physical strength

4. energy level is more " even "

mike

[Guest guest]

Quite right and I stand corrected.

I should read the book. Maybe one of my master

speed-readings from a comfy chair in and Noble

so I don't have to buy it . Not that I'm cheap

but I cannot house all the books I read and I get so tired of the low

buy-back rate.

Connie

>

> > > It depends on what you mean by " back in the day. " The addiction

> > > specialist Herbert Fingarette, who wrote an excellent book

called

> > > _Heavy Drinking: The Myth of Alcoholism as Disease_ , which

lays to

> > > rest the unitary disease concept model of alcoholism so

popular in our

> > > day (especially among the " genes as destiny " crowd) noted that

> > > colonial Americans did imbibe quite frequently, starting in the

> > > morning, and did not have near the societal problems we have

with

> > > alcohol today.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I read in another of McCullough's biographies, " , "

that two

> > of and Abigail's sons were alcoholics and they parented

grandkids.

> > A familiar story now too.

>

> Yes but tangential to my point. I didn't say there were no problems

> but only not near as widespread then as now. Given the modern

terrain

> and approach, it would suggest things should be the other way

around,

> which they are not.

>

> > I agree that it's not a unitary anything,

>

> Well then you have conceded the point, and put yourself at odds with

> much of the apparent research you reference below.

>

> > but we have learned a lot in

> > the 50 years since the disease model legitimized study and

opened up

> > research.

>

> The last fifty years has produced the unitary disease concept of

alcoholism.

>

> > We know how brain chemistry is different for families where

> > alcoholism happens, for example.

>

> It might be but then does that mean it *must* occur? I believe that

we

> all have predispositions to various issues, problems, etc. as a

result

> of our ancestral backgrounds, nutritional and otherwise. But a

> predisposition is not the same as a guarantee such will happen, only

> that if I provide the necessary substance, my " sin " will most likely

> be in the area in which I am genetically *or* culturally

predisposed.

> The question becomes, and which I think the author answers quite

well,

> what is the " food " for that terrain. His answer is that the science

> does not support some unitary disease model of alcoholism as the

food

> for such behavior.

>

> > Before then people who got in trouble

> > were just disgusting and weak right?

>

> I think rather than jump to what you might think is being said, if

> this is really of interest to you, you would be better served

reading

> the book before drawing any conclusions, and then I would be happy

to

> interact with you on the subject. The author was not writing " before

> then " and he reviewed the *science* behind the current approach and

> found it does not support the modern thesis. Nor is he denying

> alcoholism or its attendant problems but rather he demonstrates the

> science underlying the current theory behind alcoholism is unsound.

>

> And no, clearly people become drunkards for many reasons that have

> nothing to do with being disgusting and weak. In fact he takes great

> pains in the book to point that out, because understanding such will

> greatly affect how we will intervene to help someone caught in the

> grip of alcohol, he just says the research *does not* support the

> unitary disease concept as the reason why.

>

> Surely on this list we are no strangers to the idea that the

> mainstream view is not supported when the actual studies are looked

at

> in detail.

>

> > Shall we put up our dukes on the

> > tiring issue of which causal models makes a difference in

personal

> > responsibility for management? nah, let's not.

>

> Okay, but what one believes about why something occurred will

greatly

> affect one's approach to that occurrence. So it is a legitimate

issue.

> However since at this point you are incorrect in what you think he

(or

> me is) might be saying ( " before then people who got in trouble were

> just disgusting and weak right? " ), it would not be a fruitful

> exercise.

>

> And besides we will have plenty of opportunity to duke it out when I

> revive an old thread that I never got a chance to finish but where

> someone else (not you) actually jumped to some final conclusions

based

> on some very limited information :-)

>

>

> --

> What is the ballot? It is neither more nor less than a paper

> representative of the bayonet, the billy, and the bullet. It is a

> labor-saving device for ascertaining on which side force lies and

> bowing to the inevitable. The voice of the majority saves bloodshed,

> but it is no less the arbitrament of force than is the decree of the

> most absolute of despots backed by the most powerful of armies.

> ~ R. Tucker

>