Re: warfarin

[Guest guest]

, I've been on Coumadin or warfarin after surgeries. You shouldn't take

Vitamin K or eat many leafy greens which have this vitamin; there may be

other foods as well. You also need frequent blood tests to maintain a good

level of warfarin because it can vary. Those are the main concerns I

remember. You also need to remember that you might bleed more easily.

rheumatic Warfarin

> Marc said that there was discussion some time ago on warfarin, but as he

was

> not on it he didn't read the post. Could it be repeated for us, as his doc

rx

> that for him now. Thanks.

>

>

>

>

> To unsubscribe, email: rheumatic-unsubscribeegroups

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 12/3/06, Lynn Siprelle <lynn@...> wrote:

> where are those studies on warfarin and hardening of the

> arteries you mentioned?

There's one case report I have, and one study:

Schori, TR, Stungis, GE, Long-term warfarin treatment may induce

arterial calcification in humans: case report. Clin Invest Med, 2004;

27(2): 106-109.

Schurgers LJ, Aebert H, Vermeer C, Bultmann B, Janzen J. Oral

anticoagulant treatment: friend or foe? Blood, 2004; 104: 3231-3232.

There is, of course, more research in animals, not so much to prove

the obvious point that warfarin would induce calcification but to use

to create an experimental model of calcification. But the second item

above is most important, as it showed a major effect of coumadin

derivative therapy at the doses prescribed over a moderate period of

time (1-3 years) in humans.

I will send you the studies offlist.

> I saw my doctor on Thursday and asked when I

> could get off of it. He showed me my venogram; the vein in which the

> leads go to my heart from my pacemaker/ICD (implanted in May) is very

> narrow indeed. There's barely room for the leads let alone the blood,

> and my arm is still congested now and then. In time, my veins will

> route around the I asked him about risks of warfarin longterm and he

> said they were minimal. He didn't know anything about artery hardening

> and warfarin and was curious about studies. I asked about vitamin K

> deficiency and he said that's not how warfarin works; it doesn't create

> a vitamin K deficiency, it competes with vitamin K to bind to clotting

> proteins.

I find it somewhat disturbing that your doctor is prescribing warfarin

without even knowing what it does. Here's the Wikipedia explanation,

which is consistent with what I've read in journals:

============

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warfarin

The precursors of these factors require carboxylation of their

glutamic acid residues to allow the coagulation factors to bind to

phospholipid surfaces inside blood vessels, on the vascular

endothelium. This enzyme that carries out the carboxylation of

glutamic acid is the gamma-glutamyl carboxylase. The carboxylation

reaction will only proceed if the carboxylase enzyme is able to

convert a reduced form of Vitamin K (Vitamin K hydroquinone) to

vitamin K epoxide at the same time. The Vitamin K epoxide is in turn

recycled back to Vitamin K and Vitamin K hydroquinone by another

enzyme, the vitamin K epoxide reductase (VKOR). Warfarin inhibits

epoxide reductase[1] (specifically the VKORC1 subunit[2][3]), thereby

diminishing available vitamin K and Vitamin K hydroqunone in the

tissues, which inhibits the carboxylation activity of the glutamyl

carboxylase.

===========

To repeat the key phrase:

=============

thereby diminishing available vitamin K and Vitamin K hydroqunone in

the tissues,

=============

The enzyme it inhibits is that which recycles vitamin K; the mechanism

by which it inhibits clotting factors is by depleting the pool of

recycled vitamin K.

I'm so sorry about your situation and hope that you can improve your

condition safely. Be very careful getting off warfarin but do please

look into doing so in a safe and controlled manner.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Here is a site that has some really good info on the coumadin. My hubby was

on it and when he got off it......he felt so much better:)

_http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/answers10.htm_

(http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/answers10.htm)

Beth

[Guest guest]

Here is a site that has some really good info on the coumadin. My hubby was

on it and when he got off it......he felt so much better:)

_http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/answers10.htm_

(http://www.oralchelation.com/faq/answers10.htm)

Beth

[Guest guest]

> I will send you the studies offlist.

Thank you very much

> To repeat the key phrase:

>

> =============

> thereby diminishing available vitamin K and Vitamin K hydroqunone in

> the tissues,

> =============

>

> The enzyme it inhibits is that which recycles vitamin K; the mechanism

> by which it inhibits clotting factors is by depleting the pool of

> recycled vitamin K.

My doctor is probably going off the PDR, which I finally cracked last

night--I can't believe I hadn't read about it before now. I've just

been too overwhelmed, and I was sure I'd be off the warfarin in six

months (which is now). This was the first I heard that he wanted me on

indefinitely, and why. The PDR strongly implies that its only action is

in the blood clotting-specific enzymes, leaving free vitamin K around

for other uses. I'm too lazy to go dig it out and type out the

verbiage, but that's what the walk-away was.

I see the clinical pharmacists this week for my INR check (to see how

thin my blood is), and I'll ask them to explain it. That would be as

close to definitive as you could get, I would imagine. I think if I had

it to do over again I'd like to be a pharmacist. All the medicine, less

blood.

Lynn S.

------

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[Guest guest]

> Firstly, this PDF from the Dr Rath Foundation. They have a protocol

> for reversing heart disease based on high doses of vitamin C,

> l-lysine, l-proline, and other vitamins and trace minerals.

I don't have heart disease. I have a weird condition called variant, or

Prinzmetal's, angina. Basically my heart is very irritable and decides

to spasm, sometimes badly enough to cause a heart attack. I don't have

any blockages and the plaque in my heart is minimal for a woman my age.

One of the cardiologists said he'd never seen such a clean angiogram

for someone in the CICU. The one stenosis I have is strictly because of

the leads going from my recently implanted pacemaker/ICD through my

subclavial vein into my heart. The whole thing was kicked off by beta

blockers in 2002, but that's a long story. Short version: I'm the .05%

of the population that doesn't tolerate beta blockers well, or in my

case, at all.

> Magnesium is helpful for relaxing the arteries and lowering blood

> pressure. When it is injected at high doses it can make the difference

> between life and death during heart attacks. Magnesium sulphate (epsom

> salts) is the form of choice.

Magnesium is what I should have been given instead of beta blockers in

my big trip to the ER in May. The ER doctor wouldn't listen to me about

being sensitive to beta blockers and went with the standard of care,

which led to a week of unstable angina and a cardiac arrest. I'm so

outside the standard of care I'm in the next state. I've been saying

since 2003 that I shouldn't be on beta blockers; they believe me now,

and it's all over my records now not to give me beta blockers, but it

took me dying to convince them. I feel like having it tattooed on my

forehead.

I take magnesium daily already.

> What are your homocysteine levels like?

I don't know.

> For weight loss, much of the evidence points towards a low-carb, high

> fat approach as being the fastest and most effective method. I have

> found Jan Kwasniewski's Optimal Diet very useful:

> http://homodiet.netfirms.com/

>

> Like Dr Atkins, he also has quite a few things to say about heart

> disease and claims to be able to reverse it with his diet.

Everyone says that, including Pritikin and McDougall. But again, my

issue is not with blockages and plaque; my issue is spasm. From my own

research it appears to be hormonally related. In much of the reading

I've done, variant angina hits primarily women between the ages of 40

and 50. What's usually happening at that time? Menopause, but this

condition is unusual enough that no one is pursuing that connection.

The research suggests that if I can make it through menopause this will

probably go away. Here's hoping.

> Be careful when you start exercising.

I should be fine. My heart's actually in really good shape, it's just

irritable. My main problem is the accompanying PTSD. The cardiac rehab

program is monitored; they'll have me hooked up to all kinds of

monitors to watch my heart while we're working, the gym is inside a

hospital, and the people working with me will be cardiac nurses with a

cardiologist on call.

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

http://www.siprelle.com

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[Guest guest]

Lynn,

> > I will send you the studies offlist.

> Thank you very much

You're welcome.

> My doctor is probably going off the PDR, which I finally cracked last

> night--I can't believe I hadn't read about it before now. I've just

> been too overwhelmed, and I was sure I'd be off the warfarin in six

> months (which is now). This was the first I heard that he wanted me on

> indefinitely, and why. The PDR strongly implies that its only action is

> in the blood clotting-specific enzymes, leaving free vitamin K around

> for other uses. I'm too lazy to go dig it out and type out the

> verbiage, but that's what the walk-away was.

If the PDR reads anything like this:

=========

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/warfarin.htm

COUMADIN (crystalline warfarin sodium) is an anticoagulant which acts

by inhibiting vitamin K-dependent coagulation factors.

=========

Then it isn't difficult to imagine how someone could get the

impression that it directly inhibits the coagulation factors; however,

that interpretation is wrong, the above sentence is poorly worded, and

it nevertheless does NOT say that it competes with vitamin K for the

coagulation factors. Anyone who would read the above sentence and

come away with competitive inhibition would be making it up in their

own head. I'd be kind of surprised if the PDR actually stated that

warfarin competes with vitamin K for binding to the coagulation

factors, or for the enzyme that carboxylates them.

The former doesn't even make any sense because vitamin K doesn't

activate the coagulation factors itself, but is a cofactor for the

enzyme that does so. If warfarin did the latter, it would make no

sense to believe it would be specific for the coagulation factors,

because they are activated by the same enzyme as the other vitamin

K-dependent proteins. The only thing that could possibly make

warfarin specific for coagulation would be if it had some property

that made it localize specifically to the liver. Obviously it

doesn't, since it induces arterial calcification and bone loss in

cell, animal and human studies.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

OK all you biochemistry superfreaks, and I can hear you breathing out

there: I have to lose ~100 lbs and get active to get off warfarin.

That's going to take *at least* a year if not two. So here's what I

need your help figuring out:

1) What can I do to limit the amount of warfarin I have to take? (This

is also a question I'm going to ask the clinical pharmacist.) Currently

I'm on 10 mg/day and I'd like to get it closer to 2 mg. I am naturally

more coagulative than not, ie, I tend to clot regardless what's going

on in my life. I know garlic can help with this and I have no problem

taking either Kyolic-style pills or just swallowing whole raw cloves,

whatever. (I would think the pills would be safer because they are

standardized.)

2) What can I do, if anything, to mitigate the damage currently being

done by the warfarin?

Thanks as always,

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

http://www.siprelle.com

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[Guest guest]

> That's a hefty dose. What is your target INR for that dose?

Between 2 and 3. Last INR was 2.1. I'm going to the clinic tomorrow for

my next one.

> Have you

> been tested for genetic factors and protein c or s deficiency?

This is Amurrica. We don't need no fancy medicine. Just give 'er a pill.

No. Where would I go as an individual for these kinds of tests, and

how much do they run? which is really more of a question for the US

members...

> Vitamin E (400 i.u.+) and fish oils are very good for thinning the

> blood. I know they work, I've been there, done that, got the bruises

> to prove it.

OK. I'm going to discuss this tomorrow with the clinical pharmacy team,

how I can do this safely.

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

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[Guest guest]

>> I don't have heart disease.

>

> Sorry I got that wrong Lynn.

No worries, thank you for helping.

> I already suggested you might have food chemical intolerance based on

> your other symptoms, and I didn't know you had this. Many

> vascular/arterial spasm syndromes are associated with food chemical

> intolerance.

While I'm willing to consider this, my problems began with beta

blockers; I had no spasm troubles before then, and nearly all of them

(but one) have direct correlations with beta blocker ingestion. When I

convinced them to take me off beta blockers after my first heart attack

I got radically and nearly instantly better, and didn't have a spasm

for more than a year. I'll take these studies up with my new

cardiologist next week. Thanks very, very much.

Lynn S.

------

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http://www.siprelle.com

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[Guest guest]

OK, I looked at what I could of those studies, Emma, and they're not

available online but for a one-line (or less) summary. The one that had

any significant information available was about four grams of aspirin

bringing on symptoms of variant angina, whereas I take 81 milligrams

(what we used to call a baby aspirin).

I want to get off aspirin, too--I want to get off as many of the drugs

as possible, but right now my focus is on getting off warfarin first

and then reducing the amount of calcium channel blockers I take. I'm on

a huge dose right now--360 mg twice a day, which should render me

without a pulse but doesn't--and it makes me exhausted and sick, adds

about 20 pounds, and results in swelling in my feet and ankles. With

all of those problems, though, it's the main drug that's keeping me

alive--it's the only thing that stopped the spasming in hospital.

Lynn S.

------

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http://www.siprelle.com

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[Guest guest]

> It is not the dose that is important - it is your ability to cope with

> the dose, and tolerance of aspirin is extremely variable as I

> mentioned in the other post just now.

I see that, thanks, I understand what you're getting at now.

> I cannot believe that your doctors have simultaneously put you on

> aspirin and warfarin. The use of aspirin and warfarin together is

> contraindicated and is very dangerous.

They dropped my aspirin dose from 325 to 81 when I went on the

warfarin. They act on the blood in two different ways. I'll ask my

pharmacist again to explain it.

> I can't believe they've put you on beta blockers when they are

> strongly contraindicated in variant angina.

I'm not on beta blockers any longer. I did my own research in 2003 when

I was finally diagnosed with variant angina and was on a massive dose

of the beta blocker Toprol. I was getting sicker and sicker; I thought

I was dying, and their response to the angina attacks was to give me

MORE Toprol. I found the same info you did on beta blockers being

contraindicated and I begged my doctor to look at the evidence. It took

me two months of begging before he gave me the down-titration protocol

and got me off of it. I was off of it until the visit to the ER this

spring. Funny thing: I didn't have a real angina attack again until

2006. The ER doctor went with the standard of care, which in today's

American ER is: Extreme high blood pressure, administer beta blockers.

She scared me into allowing it. I doubted myself and what I knew about

my case, because she has the MD after her name and I don't, and because

I was terrified; my blood pressure was up because I was so scared. I

had reason to be terrified--every time I go in there they practically

kill me, and this time they very nearly finished me off. But I'm

outside the standard of care, which is the mantra I now have burned in

my brain. I would just abandon Western medicine altogether; they got me

into this situation after all and have done their damndest to kill me.

But I find myself in a situation now where I physically can't, not

entirely, and not yet.

> I suspected you might have food chemical intolerance because of your

> other symptoms. It is actually a relief to learn that you are taking

> aspirin because it may be that just stopping aspirin could alleviate

> your worst symptoms without you having to follow a special diet. You

> might just be sensitive to pharmacological doses of salicylate.

The thing is, I didn't take a daily aspirin when I got fibromyalgia. I

rarely took anything like pain killers. I didn't have angina between

the time I stopped the beta blockers and 2006, and I was on

full-strength aspirin all that time. I had some serious panic/anxiety

attacks that looked a lot like angina, but I learned to control or at

least deal with those once I understood what they were.

I'll talk to my doctor about getting off aspirin but I'm not hopeful. I

have to be very careful about messing with my meds; everything I'm on

is very powerful and interactive, and I tinker at my extreme peril. I

think my best bet at this point is to get some serious weight off and

then start tinkering with meds. I'm not doubting what you say. I'm just

not convinced it's where my main trouble lies.

Please know that I am EXTREMELY grateful for the energy you put into

this. I'm getting all the info I can from as many different corners as

I can.

Lynn S.

------

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http://www.siprelle.com

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[Guest guest]

> I think you need to sue these idiots. I can't believe how negligent

> they have been. Obviously they weren't paying attention at medical

> school.

This is not taught in medical school here. What is taught is the

standard of care; everything that was done with/for/to me has been

strictly within the standard of care, which is enforced and

strengthened by malpractice suits.

> It's not unusual to become more sensitive to other substances after a

> health crisis or after being put on pharmaceutical. Just because these

> health problems began with beta blockers does not mean they are now

> only limited to beta blockers, as indicated by the fact you continue

> to have spasms.

I don't, though. I'm not spasming now. But your point is very well

taken and I know it to be true from my own experience.

> The body has a remarkable ability to bounce back, when it is allowed

> to. Do you have any theories about why you are still not getting

> better from these spasms? I am sure losing weight will help somewhat,

> but " lose weight " is a doctor's pat answer for anything he doesn't

> understand the cause of.

I must not have been clear and I apologize. I'm not spasming now,

primarily because I'm on a massive dose of diltiazem (calcium channel

blocker). I don't know what made me spasm initially in May, but it was

relatively small compared to what happened after. Based on past

experience, I'll have to be on the diltiazem for a few years before my

heart has calmed down from the beta blocker assault. I'm hopeful that

with weight loss (and believe me, I understand the whole " I don't know

what to do, so lose weight " thing but in this case it's justified) and

the end of menopause in a few years I will be able to at least reduce

if not eliminate the diltiazem.

My own theory about what happened is that a combination of factors came

into play:

--Hormonal changes from perimenopause; this seems to be borne out in

the literature, though no one's really studying it.

--the beta blocker atenolol, prescribed for borderline high blood

pressure (this was long before I met you guys); apparently I have a

rare sensitivity to it.

--my taking the atenolol incorrectly--I'd never heard of a medication

that could actively harm you if you didn't take it exactly as

prescribed, I just thought it wouldn't work as well. I used to miss

pills all the time. Not any more.

Once I had the initial heart attack they put me on increasing doses of

Toprol, another beta blocker, for a year, acting on the assumption that

I had two tiny blockages off my left descending coronary artery. My

heart was that spasmed--when they did the first angiogram, those two

little vessels were still squeezed shut. The Toprol made me worse and

worse, and left my heart in an extremely irritable condition for lack

of a better term that lasted for some time after the Toprol was

discontinued. I stopped diltiazem in late 2005/early 2006 because I

seemed to be so much better.

What brought on the first spasm I had in May 2006 is unclear. I've been

puzzling about that. My best guess is that I discontinued the diltiazem

too soon, that I need to be on that through menopause, when my hormones

will finally settle down. The subsequent spasms at that time were from

the beta blockers they gave me at the ER, and I think in the CICU the

next day (I can't remember much). I got no beta blockers when I was

re-admitted. The cardiac arrest I'm thinking was just my heart giving

up after a whole week of unrelenting spasm.

That's my best guess. The doctors don't have any idea, or if they do,

they're not sharing. I'm pretty sure it's the former.

Lynn S.

------

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http://www.siprelle.com

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[Guest guest]

Lynn, there's a very good chance they tested you for protein c & s

deficiency when you were in the hospital. The docs probably wouldn't

bring it up if you were cleared. Ask your md to take a look at your

charts, and if you haven't ask him to give you the test. It is costly

but covered by insurance if you have it.

I am " supposed " to be taking warfarin as I had a dvt and pulmonary

embolism about 6 months ago at the age of 34. It made me feel so ill

I stopped and have been taking nattokinase, high doses of gingko, vit

C [ascorbic acid + baking soda] and clo [for about 4 months now].

Since reading more I've decided to supplement with edta, garlic, and

bromelain.

EDTA prevents blood clots from forming, but does not have side

effects of coumadin nor is there risk of " bleeding out. " Nattokinase

actually dissolves any blood clots that may form. Gingko, clo,

viatmin E or garlic increase the 'effectiveness' of warfarin ,

allowing one to lower dosage.

I don't remember of you discussed your energy level while on

coumadin... I found my entire body was shaky and weak on a dose of

2g. You may find it easier to exercise and lose weight as your dose

is lowered.

Christa

None of the above should be taken as medical advice. Just sharing

personal experience and what I've read.

[Guest guest]

I talked with the clinical pharmacist today and she insisted that

vitamin K was still available for other purposes--that warfarin was

specific to the clotting enzymes. Again, doesn't mean I want to stay on

it, just sayin'.

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

http://www.siprelle.com

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[Guest guest]

On 12/5/06, Emma Davies <vitaminkgirl@...> wrote:

> I found some Japanese studies

> that suggest that vitamin K is very important in regulating blood

> sugar, and when vitamin K deficiency is induced, people experience

> reactive hypoglycaemia and T2 diabetes symptoms - too much insulin,

> blood sugar too high, then too low.

That might be why vitamin K2 is found in the largest amounts in the

pancreas, although in about the same amounts in the salivary glands

and the brain. Because it is found in such high concentrations in the

salivary glands, I'm leaning towards thinking it plays an important

digestive function such as activating digestive enzymes, so maybe it

has a dual role in the pancreas.

Could you post a link to the studies you found if it isn't too much

trouble to dig them up?

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 12/5/06, Lynn Siprelle <lynn@...> wrote:

> I talked with the clinical pharmacist today and she insisted that

> vitamin K was still available for other purposes--that warfarin was

> specific to the clotting enzymes. Again, doesn't mean I want to stay on

> it, just sayin'.

Then she has NO CLUE WHAT SHE IS TALKING ABOUT. Period. No clue AT ALL.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 12/5/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> Then she has NO CLUE WHAT SHE IS TALKING ABOUT. Period. No clue AT >ALL.

I don't know how many sources I need to use to demonstrate how utterly

illogical and ignorant the idea that warfarin is specific to clotting

factors is, but here's another source confirming the mechanism of

action:

===========

http://www.uspharmacist.com/oldformat.asp?url=newlook/files/feat/oralanticoagula\

tion.htm

Warfarin exerts its anticoagulant effect by interfering with the

hepatic synthesis of vitamin K-dependent clotting factors, including

factors II, VII, IX, and X, and the natural anticoagulant proteins C

and S. Specifically, warfarin interferes with the cyclic

interconversion of vitamin K and vitamin K epoxide by blocking the

enzymes vitamin K-reductase and vitamin K epoxide-reductase, which are

responsible for activating vitamin K to its reduced form

(hydroquinone). Reduced vitamin K is essential and serves as a

cofactor in the carboxylation of clotting factor precursors to their

activated form. In the presence of warfarin, the resulting effect is

an accumulation of partially carboxylated or noncarboxylated clotting

factor precursors, which are nonfunctional.

==========

Here's a nice big fat picture of the whole thing:

================

http://www.cardiology.utmb.edu/Archive/slides/Anticoag-Rx/sld009.htm

================

As you can see, warfarin does not interact with clotting factors. It

blocks the enzyme that recycles vitamin K. Therefore, vitamin K is

not available as a cofactor for anything.

I do not understand how these people can have jobs and so be so

thoroughly ignorant of information that is readily available at

anyone's fingertips about the materials they are working with.

I would like one of them to explain why warfarin causes massive

calcification of soft tissues and bone mineralization, hypoactivity

and lack of exploratory behavior in cell, animal and human studies if

it is not by interfering with vitamin K's ability to act as a cofactor

for the enzymes that counter these properties, and explain to me why

vitamin K reverses these effects of warfarin when added in sufficient

quantities.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

> Then she has NO CLUE WHAT SHE IS TALKING ABOUT. Period. No clue AT

> ALL.

Or she may be trying to reassure me. I don't know. The whole thing is

extremely upsetting. I feel like I don't have any options and the ones

I do have are bad. I can't even talk about it right now.

Lynn S.

------

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[Guest guest]

> That might be why vitamin K2 is found in the largest amounts in the

> pancreas...

Do you reckon, then, that freeze-dried pancrease capsules would be a

good source of K2?

B.

[Guest guest]

Lynn,

> Or she may be trying to reassure me. I don't know. The whole thing is

> extremely upsetting. I feel like I don't have any options and the ones

> I do have are bad. I can't even talk about it right now.

What you should find reassuring is that the effect of warfarin is

chronic rather than acute, so you have time to address the issue. I

would say I understand your frustration, but you would probably feel

as though I couldn't possibly. I can, however, relate to some of the

anxiety you must feel and I do genuinely hope you straighten out this

situation.

Are there perhaps any " alternative " practitioners who have genuine

experience taking people of warfarin and substituting other approaches

that you could find?

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

,

> Do you reckon, then, that freeze-dried pancrease capsules would be a

> good source of K2?

They should be, assuming that they aren't defatted or otherwise

processed in such a way as to remove any component that could possibly

be preferentially associated with vitamin K2. This would be compared

to the other tissues of the animal. So, whether it is a " good " source

with respect to absolute quantity is going to depend on more than that

and I can't say exactly without seeing an analysis of the pancreas

capsules.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

Lynn,

You weren't replying to me but I wanted to let you know I do relate.

The early weeks after I was hospitalized I was very frightened. Having

doctors tell you there is only one way to resolve your health issues

when that " solution " carries negative consequences is very frustrating,

and scary. Western medicine is but one lens to view our health, but

there are others. It takes courage to take our health into our own

hands, but even if I completely agreed with the conventional treatment

for blood clotting disorders I would still have to take responsibility

for my own body. You know?

My approach: Research alternatives both conventional and alternative. I

made an appointment with my doctor and let him know that I intended to

wean myself off of warfarin with or without his support. He kept

stalling me, and finally I decided that I had to go it alone. Another

doctor may react differently, and I have no regrets. I hope that your

doctor is more open than mine was.

If you would like to know more about what I'm doing to treat my blood

clotting disorder just let me know. I'd be happy to share my experience

with you, or just listen.

Christa

>

> Or she may be trying to reassure me. I don't know. The whole thing is

> extremely upsetting. I feel like I don't have any options and the

ones

> I do have are bad. I can't even talk about it right now.

>

> Lynn S.

>

[Guest guest]

On 12/6/06, Emma Davies <vitaminkgirl@...> wrote:

> > Could you post a link to the studies you found if it isn't too much

> > trouble to dig them up?

> No problem.

Thanks Emma. Someone should do an international study correlating

one's likelihood of being healthy with the amount of real nutrition

research going on in one's country.

Seems all the good vitamin K research comes out of the Netherlands and Japan.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 12/6/06, Emma Davies <vitaminkgirl@...> wrote:

> I've actually found some similar studies for an effect of salicylate

> on vitamin K, through a different enzyme:

Very interesting -- thanks!

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com