Re: vegetable vs. gelatin capsules

[Guest guest]

> Here's a blurb from the front of his catalog: We use 100% pure,

> preservative free vegetable capsules which dissolve rapidly,

regardless of

> the food temperature, unlike gelatin capsules which are hard to digest,

> temperature-sensitive, contain toxic preservatives and carry the

risk of

> " mad cow " prion exposure.

>

> I don't know about the mad cow part as, unless the capsule was made

from

> kosher gelatin, the gelatin comes from pigs who will eat anything

including

> each other. Those of us who don't eat pork or pork by products can't

take

> regular gelatin capsules.

>

> On an earlier thread, someone mentioned about vegetable capsules

being hard

> to digest so that's why I'm posting this. According to this

gentleman, they

> are easy to digest and it's the gelatin capsules that are hard to

digest,

> not to mention that they contain preservatives in the gelatin.

>

> ,

I'm the someone.

Dr. Marshall is selling Quantum products, which are high-quality

supplements.

As far as superiority/digestiblity of vegetable-base capsules over

gelatin, I don't buy it for one second.

Although, I could be mistaken, as I've only been paraphrasing Ron

Schmid, who has his own supp-selling agenda.

But still, veg caps more digestible than gelatin? Forget it, IMO.

For one, Healthline doesn't mention the ingredients in the veg caps.

Unless they are some uber-Quantum special formulation--and they well

could be, knowing that line--they are likely made from cellulose. Hello.

The notoriously indigestible, vegetable fiber.

And to imply that cow hooves are in some way negative, per se, as a

source for capsules, is irrational. Cow hooves, who cares? That's

where gelatin comes from. Use the whole dang cow, you know?

Gelatin is a known digestion-enhancer, right? While it is not

unreasonable to assume there is a negligible amount of MSG contained

in each gel cap--due to processing temps--to insinuate that the public

is at risk of exposure to mad cow prions seems absurd--to me. When I

read that, I feel great irritation, because my need for logical sense

for a premise is unmet. Further, gel-caps I have seen always list 100%

gelatin capsule as the ingredient--no preservatives. Gelatin seems

pretty stable, and isn't typically preserved--I could be mistaken.

Another buzz-kill: I read that they consider animal products inferior

because those that are typically available commercially are not from

pristine sources, and thus are not to be trusted. Then, they write on

about the superlative quality of their plant-based preparations--on

the *merit* that they are so very conscientously obtained by Quantum

from high-quality sources...wha? I keep reading the pages, and the

obvious vegetarian propaganda just repels me. Shame, because I

actually *like* Quantum as a reputable source for supps, but I guess I

wish they wouldn't talk so much.

Ok, like I said, this is my opinion, drawn from my own conclusions and

the propaganda of others in competition with Quantum. You tell me what

you think, please. My request is that you contact Quantum and inquire

of what the veg caps are composed, and let us know.

B.

[Guest guest]

On 4/23/06, Long wrote:

>

> We use 100% pure,

> preservative free vegetable capsules which dissolve rapidly, regardless of

>

> the food temperature, unlike gelatin capsules which are hard to digest,

> temperature-sensitive,

>

From my experience, just touching a gelatin capsule with slightly damp hands

will make it start to dissolve. Not so with veggie caps, IME. So, unless

their veggie caps are made differently than most...

Steph :-)

--

http://www.PraiseMoves.com

The Christian Alternative to Yoga

[Guest guest]

By the way....Some time ago, I had wondered what Jell-o gelatin was made of. So,

I called Kraft and was told that they get it from pork. But, that there is no

" pork " molecules left in the product. I would assume it to be the same with cow

gelatin. There are no proteins left in the gelatin and you couldn't get any

diseases from it (ie: mad cow etc). ct

----------

No virus found in this outgoing message.

Checked by AVG Free Edition.

Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.5/322 - Release Date: 4/22/2006

[Guest guest]

>

> From my experience, just touching a gelatin capsule with slightly damp hands

>will make it start to dissolve. Not so with veggie caps, IME. So, unless

>their veggie caps are made differently than most...

>

>Steph :-)

I tried touching one of his veggie caps and a gelatin cap with wet fingers

after reading you email and they were both very sticky, meaning what

exactly? I don't know.

I just threw out a sales flyer from Dr. Schultze yesterday and he

talked about his easy-to-digest veggie capsules also. He is vegan I believe.

Jordan Rubin of The Maker's Diet fame uses veggie capsules in his Garden Of

Life supplements but his reason is that he uses no pork products and

gelatin capsules are made of pork gelatin so where Dr. Marshall came up

with Mad Cow disease in relation to gelatin, I don't know since they are

pork, not beef. Unless it says kosher gelatin, you can be sure it's pork

gelatin.

[Guest guest]

The bottles do say vegetable cellulose. I've always gotten a quick response

when I've sent them questions. I don't have time tonight but sometime in

the next few days, I will send them an email with some questions and when I

get a response, I will respond to your email more thoroughly. As for what I

think, I'm not sure yet. When one has an agenda (such as selling

supplements) I like to check things out. But I won't take gelatin capsules

regardless as I don't do pork for religious reasons so unless someone makes

supplements with kosher gelatin capsules, I'm limited to veggie caps if I

take any supplements at all.

As you said, Schmid has his own agenda, just as Marshall has his. But I can

vouch for Quantum products as I've taken them before and they are good

quality. Dr. Marshall does use kefir so he's not vegan. I'm not sure if

he's vegetarian or not. I've never heard him tell anyone on the radio not

to eat meat. He has said you should eat meat earlier in the day and skip it

for an evening meal--something to do with digestion I guess. But I'll shoot

off an email and get back to you when I hear from them.

>I'm the someone.

>

>Dr. Marshall is selling Quantum products, which are high-quality

>supplements.

>

>As far as superiority/digestiblity of vegetable-base capsules over

>gelatin, I don't buy it for one second.

>

>Although, I could be mistaken, as I've only been paraphrasing Ron

>Schmid, who has his own supp-selling agenda.

>

>But still, veg caps more digestible than gelatin? Forget it, IMO.

>

>For one, Healthline doesn't mention the ingredients in the veg caps.

>Unless they are some uber-Quantum special formulation--and they well

>could be, knowing that line--they are likely made from cellulose. Hello.

>The notoriously indigestible, vegetable fiber.

>

>And to imply that cow hooves are in some way negative, per se, as a

>source for capsules, is irrational. Cow hooves, who cares? That's

>where gelatin comes from. Use the whole dang cow, you know?

>

>Gelatin is a known digestion-enhancer, right? While it is not

>unreasonable to assume there is a negligible amount of MSG contained

>in each gel cap--due to processing temps--to insinuate that the public

>is at risk of exposure to mad cow prions seems absurd--to me. When I

>read that, I feel great irritation, because my need for logical sense

>for a premise is unmet. Further, gel-caps I have seen always list 100%

>gelatin capsule as the ingredient--no preservatives. Gelatin seems

>pretty stable, and isn't typically preserved--I could be mistaken.

>

>Another buzz-kill: I read that they consider animal products inferior

>because those that are typically available commercially are not from

>pristine sources, and thus are not to be trusted. Then, they write on

>about the superlative quality of their plant-based preparations--on

>the *merit* that they are so very conscientously obtained by Quantum

>from high-quality sources...wha? I keep reading the pages, and the

>obvious vegetarian propaganda just repels me. Shame, because I

>actually *like* Quantum as a reputable source for supps, but I guess I

>wish they wouldn't talk so much.

>

>Ok, like I said, this is my opinion, drawn from my own conclusions and

>the propaganda of others in competition with Quantum. You tell me what

>you think, please. My request is that you contact Quantum and inquire

>of what the veg caps are composed, and let us know.

> B.

[Guest guest]

> I tried touching one of his veggie caps and a gelatin cap with wet fingers

> after reading you email and they were both very sticky, meaning what

> exactly? I don't know.

>

> I just threw out a sales flyer from Dr. Schultze yesterday and he

> talked about his easy-to-digest veggie capsules also. He is vegan I believe.

>

> Jordan Rubin of The Maker's Diet fame uses veggie capsules in his Garden Of

> Life supplements but his reason is that he uses no pork products and

> gelatin capsules are made of pork gelatin so where Dr. Marshall came up

> with Mad Cow disease in relation to gelatin, I don't know since they are

> pork, not beef. Unless it says kosher gelatin, you can be sure it's pork

> gelatin.

>

>

>

I suspect there are a lot more cows than swine in this country and I

have read more than once that cow hooves and other parts are used as a

source of gelatin, so I think it would be more proper to say unless it

says kosher gelatin, you can be sure it contains at least a little pork

gelatin and probably a good bit of beef gelatin.

Tom

[Guest guest]

,

<snip>...I just threw out a sales flyer from Dr. Schultze

yesterday and he

> talked about his easy-to-digest veggie capsules also. He is vegan I

believe.

He is, indeed. I assume *that* influences the choice of capsules and

then they (Schulze and Quantum) propagandize to defend their choice.

.... so where Dr. Marshall came up

> with Mad Cow disease in relation to gelatin, I don't know since they

are

> pork, not beef. Unless it says kosher gelatin, you can be sure it's

pork

> gelatin.

Fear. mongering. wimps.

FWIW I reiterate that what I know of the indigestibility of veg. caps

was instigated by Ron Schmid, who is pressing his *own* agenda. My

experiences--some second hand--have shown their digestibility to be

unpredictable-at-worst.

Veg caps are undesirable as a capsule imo, for that reason, but

unfortunately ubiquitous and thus difficult to avoid. I wish

manufacturers would grow a pair and use (quality) gel caps without

excuses.

B.

[Guest guest]

>I suspect there are a lot more cows than swine in this country and I

>have read more than once that cow hooves and other parts are used as a

>source of gelatin, so I think it would be more proper to say unless it

>says kosher gelatin, you can be sure it contains at least a little pork

>gelatin and probably a good bit of beef gelatin.

>

>Tom

I sincerely doubt it. It may contain some beef but it's either pork or

predominantly pork. I've researched this so I can say it with assurance

that it's pork.

[Guest guest]

I did a little experiment on gelatin and veggie capsules. Admittedly, it's

not going to be completely accurate as I don't have the means to replicate

the acid and enzyme composition of the average stomach but it's the best I

could do.

I put 1/4 cup of filtered in each of 2 cups and added 1 tablespoon of

Bragg's apple cider vinegar. I let each set for about 4 hours to make sure

they would both be at room temperature. I then put a veggie capsule from

Dr. Schultze in one cup and a gelatin capsule from Puritan's Pride in the

other. I took notes.

1:55-put capsules in both cups

2:05- veggie capsule-hole in the end, herbs starting to come out

gelatin- capsule misshapen, water turning the color of the herb

but no discernible hole

2:10- veggie cap over half dissolved

gel cap- misshapen blob-liquid getting inside of capsule as the

herb appears partly wet, capsule

still intact with no discernible hole in it-liquid seems to be

getting in in the center where the

edges of the 2 halves are

2:12- veggie cap completely dissolved

2:20- gel cap still intact but misshapen

2:50- gel cap still intact but misshapen-herb inside appears to be mostly wet

3:05- gel cap still intact but misshapen

3:17- capsule separated into 2 halves, all of the herb looks to be in

solution-capsule halves are intact

but expanded in size

3:30- capsule halves still intact as above

3:52 (about 1 minute ago) capsule halves still intact but enlarged, very

soft but they do not appear to

have dissolved at all.

There it is. Not the best study in the world but I am convinced that

vegetable cellulose capsules are superior. In 17 minutes the veggie cap was

completely dissolved. Almost 2 hours later the gelatin capsule is still

hanging in there. It took 1 hour 22 minutes before all the herb inside the

gelatin capsule was released into the solution. I would guess that in the

stomach, the veggie cap would dissolve even faster.

[Guest guest]

>-----Original Message-----

>From:

>[mailto: ]On Behalf Of Long

>I put 1/4 cup of filtered in each of 2 cups and added 1 tablespoon of

>Bragg's apple cider vinegar. I let each set for about 4 hours to make sure

>they would both be at room temperature. I then put a veggie capsule from

>Dr. Schultze in one cup and a gelatin capsule from Puritan's Pride in the

>other. I took notes.

<snip>

>

>There it is. Not the best study in the world but I am convinced that

>vegetable cellulose capsules are superior. In 17 minutes the

>veggie cap was

>completely dissolved. Almost 2 hours later the gelatin capsule is still

>hanging in there. It took 1 hour 22 minutes before all the herb inside the

>gelatin capsule was released into the solution. I would guess that in the

>stomach, the veggie cap would dissolve even faster.

That is interesting, but I wonder how accurate a test it is for the

dissolvability of the different capsule types in a human stomach. I'd want

some questions answered before I took it at face value, such as:

1. Was the veggie cap made of cellulose? Do they make veggie caps from any

other part of vegetables, or are they all cellulose by definition?

2. Would the gel cap dissolve more quickly in a human stomach than in a

water/vinegar solution, not due to the much higher stomach acidity than the

water/vinegar solution you used, but because the pepsin produced in the

stomach might break down the gelatin very quickly (but would have no effect

on cellulose).

3. Are all veggie caps as equally dissolvable as all others in an acidic

solution and same question for gel caps? Or do the different brands contain

other ingredients that might effect the dissolvability?

Lastly, I believe that more scientific experiments have already been done on

this subject and they found that gel caps dissolve much more quickly. I'm

pretty sure DeFelice, author of " Enzymes and Autism " references some

study or studies when she says to allow 30 mins for veggie caps to dissolve

in her book. IIRC, the parents of ASD kids on her list (it's a HUGE list)

routinely give their kids their veggie cap enzymes 30 mins before meals

because of this. That seems to work best for them. Personally, I just take

all my caps (veggie or gel) at the same time and they seem to work well for

me. I can tell by the enzyme products - if they weren't dissolving, I'd get

gassy shortly after eating.

Suze Fisher

Web Design and Development

http://www.allurecreative.com

Weston A. Price Foundation Chapter Leader, Mid Coast Maine

http://www.westonaprice.org

----------------------------

" The diet-heart idea (the idea that saturated fats and cholesterol cause

heart disease) is the greatest scientific deception of our times. " --

Mann, MD, former Professor of Medicine and Biochemistry at Vanderbilt

University, Tennessee; heart disease researcher.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

<http://www.thincs.org>

----------------------------

[Guest guest]

>That is interesting, but I wonder how accurate a test it is for the

>dissolvability of the different capsule types in a human stomach. I'd want

>some questions answered before I took it at face value, such as:

>

>1. Was the veggie cap made of cellulose? Do they make veggie caps from any

>other part of vegetables, or are they all cellulose by definition?

>2. Would the gel cap dissolve more quickly in a human stomach than in a

>water/vinegar solution, not due to the much higher stomach acidity than the

>water/vinegar solution you used, but because the pepsin produced in the

>stomach might break down the gelatin very quickly (but would have no effect

>on cellulose).

>3. Are all veggie caps as equally dissolvable as all others in an acidic

>solution and same question for gel caps? Or do the different brands contain

>other ingredients that might effect the dissolvability?

>

>Lastly, I believe that more scientific experiments have already been done on

>this subject and they found that gel caps dissolve much more quickly. I'm

>pretty sure DeFelice, author of " Enzymes and Autism " references some

>study or studies when she says to allow 30 mins for veggie caps to dissolve

>in her book. IIRC, the parents of ASD kids on her list (it's a HUGE list)

>routinely give their kids their veggie cap enzymes 30 mins before meals

>because of this. That seems to work best for them. Personally, I just take

>all my caps (veggie or gel) at the same time and they seem to work well for

>me. I can tell by the enzyme products - if they weren't dissolving, I'd get

>gassy shortly after eating.

Obviously it's not a complete scientific study. It's just the best I could

do at home. The veggie cap used said it was made of vegetable cellulose on

the bottle. There are lots of other factors involved in the human stomach

that could have a profound effect on how the gelatin caps dissolved-higher

acid, enzymes, etc. But if the veggie cap would dissolve that quickly in a

mild acid environment, it would seem to make sense that it would also

dissolve fast in a harsher environment such as the stomach regardless of

what enzymes may be present. The gelatin caps may also dissolve quickly in

the stomach due to other factors. I just don't know. Even if the gelatin

capsule didn't dissolve well in the stomach, I believe that it would still

release it's contents just as it did in my experiment.

Different brands may dissolve differently due to other ingredients added or

possibly due to the manufacturing process. Again, this is something I just

don't know. The veggie caps from that I take all say the are 100% cellulose

with no added ingredients. You mentioned the pepsin in the stomach might

break down the gelatin down rather quickly but have no effect on cellulose.

This may be true but I believe my point in the above paragraph still

stands. I think the acid would break down the cellulose quickly regardless

of what other factors may be present. Could I be wrong? Yes, but I'm

convinced enough for me that veggie caps are superior. Others will have to

make their own decisions. I'm not trying to force what I believe on

anybody. I just tried a little experiment and am passing on the results.

I acknowledge the shortcomings of my study but it's good enough for me.

Lastly, as of now, about 25 1/2 hours later, the gelatin capsules have

still not dissolved. I think they probably would have had I used hot water

instead of room temperature just as you need boiling water to make jello as

it won't dissolve in the cold. So, to be on the safe side, if I were to

take gelatin capsules, I would do so with a cup of hot tea or something

else warm just to help it along. With the acids and enzymes in the stomach,

this may not be necessary but it certainly couldn't hurt.

[Guest guest]

On 5/7/06, Long <longc@...> wrote:

> There are lots of other factors involved in the human stomach

> that could have a profound effect on how the gelatin caps dissolved-higher

> acid, enzymes, etc.

I don't know if this would have a differential effect on veggie vs.

gel caps, but another factor would be mechanical movement. The

stomach doesn't just sit there. It contracts and grinds everything

mechanically. So the experiment might be better-modeled if the

contents are stirred to introduce some movement -- although that's

kind of impractical to do at home for very long.

Chris

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html

[Guest guest]

>

> I did a little experiment on gelatin and veggie capsules...

,

Fascinating! I think you should forward to Ron Schmid at drrons.com

It's certainly not what I expected. Although I remember now I was

once-upon-a-time taking an herb from Dr. Ron's and having some

vomiting issues and I noticed the capsule was coming back up

entire/undissolved after several hours time in the maw...was a

disappointing sight, considering the price per bottle.

I digress...

Thank you for taking the effort--you must be relieved!

B.

[Guest guest]

On 5/8/06, downwardog7 <illneverbecool@...> wrote:

> > I did a little experiment on gelatin and veggie capsules...

> Fascinating! I think you should forward to Ron Schmid at drrons.com

>

> It's certainly not what I expected. Although I remember now I was

> once-upon-a-time taking an herb from Dr. Ron's and having some

> vomiting issues and I noticed the capsule was coming back up

> entire/undissolved after several hours time in the maw...was a

> disappointing sight, considering the price per bottle.

> I digress...

It must vary widely per person, or maybe by what is *inside* the

capsule. My HCl is gel caps, and I notice that if I take it before I

start eating but delay eating any food for 2-3 minutes or more, then

around that time I start to get acid reflux, which is calmed by eating

food. So the HCl definitely releases.

But my thought is that as soon as the HCl starts getting any moisture

in it, the capsule will dissolve from the inside out, since the pH on

the inside would be practically 0.

Chris

--

Dioxins in Animal Foods:

A Case For Vegetarianism?

Find Out the Truth:

http://www.westonaprice.org/envtoxins/dioxins.html