Re: Depressed -- what to do? - go back to armour?

[Guest guest]

Let's do some digging... you said that the tests showed low Free T4 and high Free T3.. that suggests an imbalance BUT.. how long before you had the blood draw did you take your meds? The labs may have been reading the free T3 that was still in your system from dosing and not the Free T3 in your system due to conversion.... that would mean that your dose is still too low (low Free T4) and not knowing for sure if your natural conversion is adequate.

Tell me about when you are taking stuff...

When do you take the thyroid, how many times per day? Do you swallow, empty stomach or not? Or do you take it sublingually?

When are you taking adrenal, once or more per day? Do you swallow it or take it sublingually?

When do you take the iron in relation to the thyroid?

You don't actually want the Frees to 'balance' most folks seem to feel the best with the TSH around 1.0 or a bit less, Free T4 about mid range or a tad higher.... Free T3 at the high end of the range or a tad higher...

The bottle of 1 1/2 grain will have an expiration date on them, check it - the manufacturer's exp. date, not the pharmacy's.... as long as the bottle has been closed tightly and kept at room temp, out of sun light... they should be good at least until the expiration date. If prescription was rebottled by the pharmacist and put in a new bottle with a label, the expiration date will automatically be 1 year from the date the prescription was filled. So then we'd be guessing.

Don't worry about being long.. the more info you give the better.

There are some things that some of us have found we need to do.. it varies from person to person you just have to find out what works for you...

Sublingual dosing (placing the tab under your tongue) increases your absorption rate and leaves a lot more flexibility with meals and other supplements.

Multiple dosing throughout the day evens out the T3 that hits your body at any one time, keeping levels from dropping low or spiking high. T3 is 95% used up 4 hours after you take it (either as Cytomel or natural thyroid) So by dosing all at once you get the great surge of T3 and then drop down to only your body's conversion the rest of the day... If you heart is ailing.. that can be a greater strain on it.. Personally... I find that multidosing through the day makes me feel MUCH better.

Have you been able to track your basals ( www.thyrophoenix.com/self_monitor.htm ) to see how your body is doing? Before the synthetics came to be and the testing, patients were treated based on symptoms and basals. It's a great way to keep track of how your metabolic rate is doing, so a great way to see how your body is reacting to your meds, and in adjusting your meds. You can monitor yourself between labs.

You had a jump from 1 1/2 grains to 2 1/4, was that jump made all at once? It's possible that that was too great a jump for you all at once... your body can react badly to increases that are too high (and also to increases that are done too close together)

How soon are your next labs?

I've been self medicating for over two years now.. It was the scariest thing I ever did, but it was the only choice that I had (no insurance, no money for docs and labs - needed over a grand) so I just did it... Now I feel it was absolutely the BEST thing I have done for myself. I self-monitored and slowly adjusted my dosage up. I started out with increases about 6 weeks apart... a couple of times it was 12 weeks, I listened to what my body was telling me. I had a bit of trouble getting up to 3 grain, got hyper twice and backed off, the third time I did just fine... I'm now considering trying 3 1/4 grain... not sure though. My basals are fine, I'm still improving.... I may not rock the boat. I take mine sublingually, 1/2 grain doses, six times a day... That seems to be what my body wants.. that may change... I don't know, but for now it's what my body needs. I had RAI to kill my gland 15 years ago... so I'm totally dependant on what I'm taking...

What ever you decide to do.. we're here to help... As far as the Armour that you have... I'd check the dates on the larger pills and use those up first... keep filling the prescription on time and stock pile the pills.. With splitting and such you'll be able to use them and will not be wasting money. Money is scarce for many of us...

For splitting, you can get a pill splitter... or, what I do, is use a single edged razor blade... I quarter most of my pills for multi-dosing.. and cut my multi-vitamins in to eights.. so I can take a piece every time I eat...

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 04:38:47 -0000 "Debbie" writes:

My whole system is so messed up, I'm not even sure what to do next.Am hypo due to RAI for Graves 8 years ago. 4 years ago, I addedcytomel to the synthroid and immediately noticed the difference andfelt better for a few months. Dr. adjusted dosage based on TSH anddropped me to .112 synthroid + 10 cytomel. Continued to have problems so switched to 1.5 of armour -- within amonth, all symptoms were resolved. But of course it wouldn't last. Upped to 2.25 grains and felt great for 2 months, then had lots ofproblems. Tests showed low FT4 and high FT3. Went with the advice of someothers and tried to get both #s more in balance. Since I was havinghorrible hair loss (which I'd previously only had with low FT4) andheart palps (assuming due to the high FT3), we thought this was theright direction.It has been a nightmare over the past two years of these adjustments.Numbers finally got good, but I still felt like crap. Testedadrenals and they were messed up, so have been taking nutri-meds on myown for about a month, altho I don't know if at the right amt. Alsotaking iron for low ferritin. I am so depressed, still having hair loss, still no sex drive, stillno ability to really feel any joy or happiness, still no feeling in mymuscles, plus heart palps.I want to go back to all armour, but am scared because that is when somany of the problems really kicked in. I'm supposed to go back formore blood tests soon (am currently on .137 T4 + 1 grain armour), butdon't see the point. Already have wasted so much money on these teststhat we make adjustments based on -- and feel no better. Plus if Idon't feel better this time, my dr wants to refer me on to an endobecause of my suppressed TSH which I certainly don't want to do.I counted up and I should have 194 1 grain tablets available until myprescription runs out. Also have 36 1 1/2 grains from April of 03,but wonder if they would still be as potent. How should I go about this if I take the plunge? (None of my otherself-treating decisions have worked out so I don't have a lot ofconfidence!) Should I up to 2 grains and up from there? I'm prettylost and so tired of living this way.I'm sorry it's so long -- it seems I try to put my whole life historyin one little post. Thanks for any input - Debbie

[Guest guest]

Okay... you're understanding that taking the thyroid before the labs may have been showing an inaccurate T3... so you're ahead on that now...

You can do the adrenal at the same time you do the Armour.. they won't negate each other....But it's still best to do it first thing.. then you can eat breakfast as soon as they've dissolved... the adrenal will go to a little mushy mass... the last of the tableting fillers are left behind... you can just swoosh that with some water and swallow.

I often pop a hard candy or tic tac when I'm out in public and have to dose... I'm a bit self conscious about bad breath, and I've had no reduction in how I feel after (remember, if I skip a dose I start getting the sleepies a couple of hours later.. so I would think if the sucking on the candy were affecting absorption I'd probably know by the end of the day)

Synthroid has a tendency to suppress TSH.. it depends on how your body reacts to it... if the T4 is building up the Pituitary can be releasing less TSH in response to that... yet if you're not converting sufficiently... then you end up with hypo symptoms.

Things like low adrenal function, bad diet, etc can contribute to how well your tissues take up the T4... So, for example, you can have all kinds of T4 in your blood.. but your tissues, if they don't take it up, aren't going to be converting as they should....

I know your last T3 test was high... but there is a variable there that will be ruled out with your next test.... so we have to wait to see....

You may be hyper sensitive to adjustments, like me... in that case you have to make adjustments slow, give you body time to adjust... that my be what happened before... the symptoms that bothered you so much was not the med itself.. but your system not accepting it right away...

oh, sigh, it's such a bear figuring all this out... it would be soooo much easier if we were all the same... but... I've said it before... I'll say it again... it's sooooo worth figuring it out... to be alive again....

Don't give up!

Go ahead with the basal thermometer that you have... see how your temp fluctuates during the day to get a feel for how accurate it's gonna be for you and then start charting your first morning temps.... You should be able to see a pattern.

For me, what I saw was that after a dose my temp would come up a bit for a few days and then go back down.. but not as far as it was before... so it was kind of a 5 steps forward, 4 steps back kinda thing... does that make sense? As I got my doses higher the 'spikes' would be smaller until my temps got up to about 98.. they now fluctuate between about 97.8 and 98.2 by my thermometer... when I started I was way below 97.. My respirations went up pretty steady.... starting at 10.. they're not up about 20.... rising significantly when I'm active, as they should.... dropping back to normal in 10 or 15 minutes of quiet time, as they should. A vast improvement from half an hour of panting on the bed from just taking a shower...

Become familiar with how your body is now, how it reacts to adjustments and you'll be able to see things a LOT quicker than trying to set up labs and wait for results.

What you do with the older meds is gonna be up to you. As long as they have been stored properly they won't go bad, they could just be less potent. For myself, I'd still use them... keeping in mind that when they were gone and it was time to start on a fresh bottle that the dosage on the new tabs will have to be less to start... and then watch basals again to see how I react.. I've had to do that a few times when I was using up old bottles of glandulars before I could order new (it sucks to be poor)...

Anyway.. I still made it... and doing good now... and working on doing even better....

Topper ()

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 03:24:00 -0000 "Debbie" writes:

Topper - Thanks for your very indepth reply. 2 years ago when I took those tests on armour, I took the armour 2-3hours before the test. I've learned a lot since then and have beentaking my armour after the bloodwork. So I know what you mean aboutthe Ft3 # probably not being accurate back then.I'd always swallowed my armour, but about 3-4 weeks ago -- sincereading all the posts here -- have switched to sublingual. I split mydose and do one about 9:00 am and one about 3:00. (I've been takingthe synthroid at 9:00 too, but hopefully won't be on synthroid muchlonger!!)I've been taking 1 nutri-med adrenal when I get up, but then havebreakfast right after. Then I've been taking another at lunchtime. For some reason, I haven't switched to sublingual yet with these --tried it once, but there was something about the flavor. Perhaps Ijust need to try it again!I've been taking one iron pill at lunch and one at supper. Supper isalso when I take my multi-vitamin. Also have been taking extraVitamin C and B5 for my adrenals.My husband and I did a lot of talking today and we're both reallyready to try the armour again. It's been hard for me to get over the"can't let the FT3 get over the range" philosophy -- But I think I'mthere! Since RAI, my TSH has pretty much always been suppressed on meds so Iknow that's never been accurate as far as how I felt. So what's thechance that the Free #s are accurate as far as showing how my body'sactually using the thyroid hormone. I'm so tired of wasting money onlabs and adjusting based on them, and never feeling any better. Doingthis little juggling game of armour and synthroid, trying to get agood combo, is wearing me out. So at this point, I'm ready to chuck the thyroid blood tests, switchback to armour and go by symptoms and temp. When I was originally onarmour and started having so many problems, I had no idea aboutadrenals or iron. I'm hoping that addressing these problems will helpme tolerate the increases in the armour.Yes, back when I went from 1.5 to 2.25 grains of armour, it was in onebig jump. So that very possibly was too big of a change at one timeand my body reacted negatively.I've been trying to do the temp with a regular digital thermometer wehad, but I don't know if it's very accurate. I couldn't find amercury thermometer, but did find a "basal digital thermometer" today.It says it measures the basal body temp to identify ovulation, etc.Would this work?The 1 1/2 grains I still have were rebottled so I don't know what theexpiration would be. I got them in April 03, so I'm definetely over ayear later. Don't know if I should chance it, but if I don't usethem, it would really shorten the time I'd have to try this before I'dneed to find a dr or try ordering from Mexico.I just know that I've never felt as good as I did for those 2 monthson 2.25 grains and I think I then blamed the armour dose for someother problems I had. I am so ready to be feeling good again. I haveto really watch myself to go slow. Patience isn't my best virtue, butI don't want to backslide any more than I have.Thank you for all your help. I so appreciate it.Debbie

[Guest guest]

Okay... you're understanding that taking the thyroid before the labs may have been showing an inaccurate T3... so you're ahead on that now...

You can do the adrenal at the same time you do the Armour.. they won't negate each other....But it's still best to do it first thing.. then you can eat breakfast as soon as they've dissolved... the adrenal will go to a little mushy mass... the last of the tableting fillers are left behind... you can just swoosh that with some water and swallow.

I often pop a hard candy or tic tac when I'm out in public and have to dose... I'm a bit self conscious about bad breath, and I've had no reduction in how I feel after (remember, if I skip a dose I start getting the sleepies a couple of hours later.. so I would think if the sucking on the candy were affecting absorption I'd probably know by the end of the day)

Synthroid has a tendency to suppress TSH.. it depends on how your body reacts to it... if the T4 is building up the Pituitary can be releasing less TSH in response to that... yet if you're not converting sufficiently... then you end up with hypo symptoms.

Things like low adrenal function, bad diet, etc can contribute to how well your tissues take up the T4... So, for example, you can have all kinds of T4 in your blood.. but your tissues, if they don't take it up, aren't going to be converting as they should....

I know your last T3 test was high... but there is a variable there that will be ruled out with your next test.... so we have to wait to see....

You may be hyper sensitive to adjustments, like me... in that case you have to make adjustments slow, give you body time to adjust... that my be what happened before... the symptoms that bothered you so much was not the med itself.. but your system not accepting it right away...

oh, sigh, it's such a bear figuring all this out... it would be soooo much easier if we were all the same... but... I've said it before... I'll say it again... it's sooooo worth figuring it out... to be alive again....

Don't give up!

Go ahead with the basal thermometer that you have... see how your temp fluctuates during the day to get a feel for how accurate it's gonna be for you and then start charting your first morning temps.... You should be able to see a pattern.

For me, what I saw was that after a dose my temp would come up a bit for a few days and then go back down.. but not as far as it was before... so it was kind of a 5 steps forward, 4 steps back kinda thing... does that make sense? As I got my doses higher the 'spikes' would be smaller until my temps got up to about 98.. they now fluctuate between about 97.8 and 98.2 by my thermometer... when I started I was way below 97.. My respirations went up pretty steady.... starting at 10.. they're not up about 20.... rising significantly when I'm active, as they should.... dropping back to normal in 10 or 15 minutes of quiet time, as they should. A vast improvement from half an hour of panting on the bed from just taking a shower...

Become familiar with how your body is now, how it reacts to adjustments and you'll be able to see things a LOT quicker than trying to set up labs and wait for results.

What you do with the older meds is gonna be up to you. As long as they have been stored properly they won't go bad, they could just be less potent. For myself, I'd still use them... keeping in mind that when they were gone and it was time to start on a fresh bottle that the dosage on the new tabs will have to be less to start... and then watch basals again to see how I react.. I've had to do that a few times when I was using up old bottles of glandulars before I could order new (it sucks to be poor)...

Anyway.. I still made it... and doing good now... and working on doing even better....

Topper ()

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 03:24:00 -0000 "Debbie" writes:

Topper - Thanks for your very indepth reply. 2 years ago when I took those tests on armour, I took the armour 2-3hours before the test. I've learned a lot since then and have beentaking my armour after the bloodwork. So I know what you mean aboutthe Ft3 # probably not being accurate back then.I'd always swallowed my armour, but about 3-4 weeks ago -- sincereading all the posts here -- have switched to sublingual. I split mydose and do one about 9:00 am and one about 3:00. (I've been takingthe synthroid at 9:00 too, but hopefully won't be on synthroid muchlonger!!)I've been taking 1 nutri-med adrenal when I get up, but then havebreakfast right after. Then I've been taking another at lunchtime. For some reason, I haven't switched to sublingual yet with these --tried it once, but there was something about the flavor. Perhaps Ijust need to try it again!I've been taking one iron pill at lunch and one at supper. Supper isalso when I take my multi-vitamin. Also have been taking extraVitamin C and B5 for my adrenals.My husband and I did a lot of talking today and we're both reallyready to try the armour again. It's been hard for me to get over the"can't let the FT3 get over the range" philosophy -- But I think I'mthere! Since RAI, my TSH has pretty much always been suppressed on meds so Iknow that's never been accurate as far as how I felt. So what's thechance that the Free #s are accurate as far as showing how my body'sactually using the thyroid hormone. I'm so tired of wasting money onlabs and adjusting based on them, and never feeling any better. Doingthis little juggling game of armour and synthroid, trying to get agood combo, is wearing me out. So at this point, I'm ready to chuck the thyroid blood tests, switchback to armour and go by symptoms and temp. When I was originally onarmour and started having so many problems, I had no idea aboutadrenals or iron. I'm hoping that addressing these problems will helpme tolerate the increases in the armour.Yes, back when I went from 1.5 to 2.25 grains of armour, it was in onebig jump. So that very possibly was too big of a change at one timeand my body reacted negatively.I've been trying to do the temp with a regular digital thermometer wehad, but I don't know if it's very accurate. I couldn't find amercury thermometer, but did find a "basal digital thermometer" today.It says it measures the basal body temp to identify ovulation, etc.Would this work?The 1 1/2 grains I still have were rebottled so I don't know what theexpiration would be. I got them in April 03, so I'm definetely over ayear later. Don't know if I should chance it, but if I don't usethem, it would really shorten the time I'd have to try this before I'dneed to find a dr or try ordering from Mexico.I just know that I've never felt as good as I did for those 2 monthson 2.25 grains and I think I then blamed the armour dose for someother problems I had. I am so ready to be feeling good again. I haveto really watch myself to go slow. Patience isn't my best virtue, butI don't want to backslide any more than I have.Thank you for all your help. I so appreciate it.Debbie

[Guest guest]

Okay... you're understanding that taking the thyroid before the labs may have been showing an inaccurate T3... so you're ahead on that now...

You can do the adrenal at the same time you do the Armour.. they won't negate each other....But it's still best to do it first thing.. then you can eat breakfast as soon as they've dissolved... the adrenal will go to a little mushy mass... the last of the tableting fillers are left behind... you can just swoosh that with some water and swallow.

I often pop a hard candy or tic tac when I'm out in public and have to dose... I'm a bit self conscious about bad breath, and I've had no reduction in how I feel after (remember, if I skip a dose I start getting the sleepies a couple of hours later.. so I would think if the sucking on the candy were affecting absorption I'd probably know by the end of the day)

Synthroid has a tendency to suppress TSH.. it depends on how your body reacts to it... if the T4 is building up the Pituitary can be releasing less TSH in response to that... yet if you're not converting sufficiently... then you end up with hypo symptoms.

Things like low adrenal function, bad diet, etc can contribute to how well your tissues take up the T4... So, for example, you can have all kinds of T4 in your blood.. but your tissues, if they don't take it up, aren't going to be converting as they should....

I know your last T3 test was high... but there is a variable there that will be ruled out with your next test.... so we have to wait to see....

You may be hyper sensitive to adjustments, like me... in that case you have to make adjustments slow, give you body time to adjust... that my be what happened before... the symptoms that bothered you so much was not the med itself.. but your system not accepting it right away...

oh, sigh, it's such a bear figuring all this out... it would be soooo much easier if we were all the same... but... I've said it before... I'll say it again... it's sooooo worth figuring it out... to be alive again....

Don't give up!

Go ahead with the basal thermometer that you have... see how your temp fluctuates during the day to get a feel for how accurate it's gonna be for you and then start charting your first morning temps.... You should be able to see a pattern.

For me, what I saw was that after a dose my temp would come up a bit for a few days and then go back down.. but not as far as it was before... so it was kind of a 5 steps forward, 4 steps back kinda thing... does that make sense? As I got my doses higher the 'spikes' would be smaller until my temps got up to about 98.. they now fluctuate between about 97.8 and 98.2 by my thermometer... when I started I was way below 97.. My respirations went up pretty steady.... starting at 10.. they're not up about 20.... rising significantly when I'm active, as they should.... dropping back to normal in 10 or 15 minutes of quiet time, as they should. A vast improvement from half an hour of panting on the bed from just taking a shower...

Become familiar with how your body is now, how it reacts to adjustments and you'll be able to see things a LOT quicker than trying to set up labs and wait for results.

What you do with the older meds is gonna be up to you. As long as they have been stored properly they won't go bad, they could just be less potent. For myself, I'd still use them... keeping in mind that when they were gone and it was time to start on a fresh bottle that the dosage on the new tabs will have to be less to start... and then watch basals again to see how I react.. I've had to do that a few times when I was using up old bottles of glandulars before I could order new (it sucks to be poor)...

Anyway.. I still made it... and doing good now... and working on doing even better....

Topper ()

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 03:24:00 -0000 "Debbie" writes:

Topper - Thanks for your very indepth reply. 2 years ago when I took those tests on armour, I took the armour 2-3hours before the test. I've learned a lot since then and have beentaking my armour after the bloodwork. So I know what you mean aboutthe Ft3 # probably not being accurate back then.I'd always swallowed my armour, but about 3-4 weeks ago -- sincereading all the posts here -- have switched to sublingual. I split mydose and do one about 9:00 am and one about 3:00. (I've been takingthe synthroid at 9:00 too, but hopefully won't be on synthroid muchlonger!!)I've been taking 1 nutri-med adrenal when I get up, but then havebreakfast right after. Then I've been taking another at lunchtime. For some reason, I haven't switched to sublingual yet with these --tried it once, but there was something about the flavor. Perhaps Ijust need to try it again!I've been taking one iron pill at lunch and one at supper. Supper isalso when I take my multi-vitamin. Also have been taking extraVitamin C and B5 for my adrenals.My husband and I did a lot of talking today and we're both reallyready to try the armour again. It's been hard for me to get over the"can't let the FT3 get over the range" philosophy -- But I think I'mthere! Since RAI, my TSH has pretty much always been suppressed on meds so Iknow that's never been accurate as far as how I felt. So what's thechance that the Free #s are accurate as far as showing how my body'sactually using the thyroid hormone. I'm so tired of wasting money onlabs and adjusting based on them, and never feeling any better. Doingthis little juggling game of armour and synthroid, trying to get agood combo, is wearing me out. So at this point, I'm ready to chuck the thyroid blood tests, switchback to armour and go by symptoms and temp. When I was originally onarmour and started having so many problems, I had no idea aboutadrenals or iron. I'm hoping that addressing these problems will helpme tolerate the increases in the armour.Yes, back when I went from 1.5 to 2.25 grains of armour, it was in onebig jump. So that very possibly was too big of a change at one timeand my body reacted negatively.I've been trying to do the temp with a regular digital thermometer wehad, but I don't know if it's very accurate. I couldn't find amercury thermometer, but did find a "basal digital thermometer" today.It says it measures the basal body temp to identify ovulation, etc.Would this work?The 1 1/2 grains I still have were rebottled so I don't know what theexpiration would be. I got them in April 03, so I'm definetely over ayear later. Don't know if I should chance it, but if I don't usethem, it would really shorten the time I'd have to try this before I'dneed to find a dr or try ordering from Mexico.I just know that I've never felt as good as I did for those 2 monthson 2.25 grains and I think I then blamed the armour dose for someother problems I had. I am so ready to be feeling good again. I haveto really watch myself to go slow. Patience isn't my best virtue, butI don't want to backslide any more than I have.Thank you for all your help. I so appreciate it.Debbie

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Topper for all the advice and encouragement. If you and the

others here have done it, so can I. I've reread your page on

self-monitoring and am set to do all that.

I tried doing the nutri-med adrenal sublingually yesterday -- and I

don't know how you do it! I could only stand it for a little while

before I was gagging. So I guess I'll have to swallow them.

I'm going to go slow with any adjustments, based on all the past

problems I've had. I certainly don't want to crash by going up to

fast. But I'm also worried about going down too fast. If I'm on 1

grain + .137 synthroid, should I just drop the synthroid and add a

little more armour in? Would that be too much of a drop? (Does that

make sense?)

Do you order from myrxforless? Have you tried generic? I thought I

wanted to stick with armour, but the price difference is pretty

substantial between that and generic. I know I've read some who've

had no problems with the generic and some who didn't think it was as

potent.

Looking forward to feeling better! Thanks -

Debbie

> Okay... you're understanding that taking the thyroid before the labs may

> have been showing an inaccurate T3... so you're ahead on that now...

>

> You can do the adrenal at the same time you do the Armour.. they won't

> negate each other....But it's still best to do it first thing.. then you

> can eat breakfast as soon as they've dissolved... the adrenal will go to

> a little mushy mass... the last of the tableting fillers are left

> behind... you can just swoosh that with some water and swallow.

>

> I often pop a hard candy or tic tac when I'm out in public and have to

> dose... I'm a bit self conscious about bad breath, and I've had no

> reduction in how I feel after (remember, if I skip a dose I start

getting

> the sleepies a couple of hours later.. so I would think if the

sucking on

> the candy were affecting absorption I'd probably know by the end of the

> day)

>

> Synthroid has a tendency to suppress TSH.. it depends on how your body

> reacts to it... if the T4 is building up the Pituitary can be releasing

> less TSH in response to that... yet if you're not converting

> sufficiently... then you end up with hypo symptoms.

>

> Things like low adrenal function, bad diet, etc can contribute to how

> well your tissues take up the T4... So, for example, you can have all

> kinds of T4 in your blood.. but your tissues, if they don't take it up,

> aren't going to be converting as they should....

>

> I know your last T3 test was high... but there is a variable there that

> will be ruled out with your next test.... so we have to wait to see....

>

> You may be hyper sensitive to adjustments, like me... in that case you

> have to make adjustments slow, give you body time to adjust... that

my be

> what happened before... the symptoms that bothered you so much was not

> the med itself.. but your system not accepting it right away...

>

> oh, sigh, it's such a bear figuring all this out... it would be soooo

> much easier if we were all the same... but... I've said it before...

I'll

> say it again... it's sooooo worth figuring it out... to be alive

> again....

>

> Don't give up!

>

> Go ahead with the basal thermometer that you have... see how your temp

> fluctuates during the day to get a feel for how accurate it's gonna be

> for you and then start charting your first morning temps.... You should

> be able to see a pattern.

>

> For me, what I saw was that after a dose my temp would come up a bit for

> a few days and then go back down.. but not as far as it was before... so

> it was kind of a 5 steps forward, 4 steps back kinda thing... does that

> make sense? As I got my doses higher the 'spikes' would be smaller until

> my temps got up to about 98.. they now fluctuate between about 97.8 and

> 98.2 by my thermometer... when I started I was way below 97.. My

> respirations went up pretty steady.... starting at 10.. they're not up

> about 20.... rising significantly when I'm active, as they should....

> dropping back to normal in 10 or 15 minutes of quiet time, as they

> should. A vast improvement from half an hour of panting on the bed from

> just taking a shower...

>

> Become familiar with how your body is now, how it reacts to adjustments

> and you'll be able to see things a LOT quicker than trying to set up

labs

> and wait for results.

>

> What you do with the older meds is gonna be up to you. As long as they

> have been stored properly they won't go bad, they could just be less

> potent. For myself, I'd still use them... keeping in mind that when they

> were gone and it was time to start on a fresh bottle that the dosage on

> the new tabs will have to be less to start... and then watch basals

again

> to see how I react.. I've had to do that a few times when I was using up

> old bottles of glandulars before I could order new (it sucks to be

> poor)...

>

> Anyway.. I still made it... and doing good now... and working on doing

> even better....

>

> Topper ()

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Topper for all the advice and encouragement. If you and the

others here have done it, so can I. I've reread your page on

self-monitoring and am set to do all that.

I tried doing the nutri-med adrenal sublingually yesterday -- and I

don't know how you do it! I could only stand it for a little while

before I was gagging. So I guess I'll have to swallow them.

I'm going to go slow with any adjustments, based on all the past

problems I've had. I certainly don't want to crash by going up to

fast. But I'm also worried about going down too fast. If I'm on 1

grain + .137 synthroid, should I just drop the synthroid and add a

little more armour in? Would that be too much of a drop? (Does that

make sense?)

Do you order from myrxforless? Have you tried generic? I thought I

wanted to stick with armour, but the price difference is pretty

substantial between that and generic. I know I've read some who've

had no problems with the generic and some who didn't think it was as

potent.

Looking forward to feeling better! Thanks -

Debbie

> Okay... you're understanding that taking the thyroid before the labs may

> have been showing an inaccurate T3... so you're ahead on that now...

>

> You can do the adrenal at the same time you do the Armour.. they won't

> negate each other....But it's still best to do it first thing.. then you

> can eat breakfast as soon as they've dissolved... the adrenal will go to

> a little mushy mass... the last of the tableting fillers are left

> behind... you can just swoosh that with some water and swallow.

>

> I often pop a hard candy or tic tac when I'm out in public and have to

> dose... I'm a bit self conscious about bad breath, and I've had no

> reduction in how I feel after (remember, if I skip a dose I start

getting

> the sleepies a couple of hours later.. so I would think if the

sucking on

> the candy were affecting absorption I'd probably know by the end of the

> day)

>

> Synthroid has a tendency to suppress TSH.. it depends on how your body

> reacts to it... if the T4 is building up the Pituitary can be releasing

> less TSH in response to that... yet if you're not converting

> sufficiently... then you end up with hypo symptoms.

>

> Things like low adrenal function, bad diet, etc can contribute to how

> well your tissues take up the T4... So, for example, you can have all

> kinds of T4 in your blood.. but your tissues, if they don't take it up,

> aren't going to be converting as they should....

>

> I know your last T3 test was high... but there is a variable there that

> will be ruled out with your next test.... so we have to wait to see....

>

> You may be hyper sensitive to adjustments, like me... in that case you

> have to make adjustments slow, give you body time to adjust... that

my be

> what happened before... the symptoms that bothered you so much was not

> the med itself.. but your system not accepting it right away...

>

> oh, sigh, it's such a bear figuring all this out... it would be soooo

> much easier if we were all the same... but... I've said it before...

I'll

> say it again... it's sooooo worth figuring it out... to be alive

> again....

>

> Don't give up!

>

> Go ahead with the basal thermometer that you have... see how your temp

> fluctuates during the day to get a feel for how accurate it's gonna be

> for you and then start charting your first morning temps.... You should

> be able to see a pattern.

>

> For me, what I saw was that after a dose my temp would come up a bit for

> a few days and then go back down.. but not as far as it was before... so

> it was kind of a 5 steps forward, 4 steps back kinda thing... does that

> make sense? As I got my doses higher the 'spikes' would be smaller until

> my temps got up to about 98.. they now fluctuate between about 97.8 and

> 98.2 by my thermometer... when I started I was way below 97.. My

> respirations went up pretty steady.... starting at 10.. they're not up

> about 20.... rising significantly when I'm active, as they should....

> dropping back to normal in 10 or 15 minutes of quiet time, as they

> should. A vast improvement from half an hour of panting on the bed from

> just taking a shower...

>

> Become familiar with how your body is now, how it reacts to adjustments

> and you'll be able to see things a LOT quicker than trying to set up

labs

> and wait for results.

>

> What you do with the older meds is gonna be up to you. As long as they

> have been stored properly they won't go bad, they could just be less

> potent. For myself, I'd still use them... keeping in mind that when they

> were gone and it was time to start on a fresh bottle that the dosage on

> the new tabs will have to be less to start... and then watch basals

again

> to see how I react.. I've had to do that a few times when I was using up

> old bottles of glandulars before I could order new (it sucks to be

> poor)...

>

> Anyway.. I still made it... and doing good now... and working on doing

> even better....

>

> Topper ()

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Topper for all the advice and encouragement. If you and the

others here have done it, so can I. I've reread your page on

self-monitoring and am set to do all that.

I tried doing the nutri-med adrenal sublingually yesterday -- and I

don't know how you do it! I could only stand it for a little while

before I was gagging. So I guess I'll have to swallow them.

I'm going to go slow with any adjustments, based on all the past

problems I've had. I certainly don't want to crash by going up to

fast. But I'm also worried about going down too fast. If I'm on 1

grain + .137 synthroid, should I just drop the synthroid and add a

little more armour in? Would that be too much of a drop? (Does that

make sense?)

Do you order from myrxforless? Have you tried generic? I thought I

wanted to stick with armour, but the price difference is pretty

substantial between that and generic. I know I've read some who've

had no problems with the generic and some who didn't think it was as

potent.

Looking forward to feeling better! Thanks -

Debbie

> Okay... you're understanding that taking the thyroid before the labs may

> have been showing an inaccurate T3... so you're ahead on that now...

>

> You can do the adrenal at the same time you do the Armour.. they won't

> negate each other....But it's still best to do it first thing.. then you

> can eat breakfast as soon as they've dissolved... the adrenal will go to

> a little mushy mass... the last of the tableting fillers are left

> behind... you can just swoosh that with some water and swallow.

>

> I often pop a hard candy or tic tac when I'm out in public and have to

> dose... I'm a bit self conscious about bad breath, and I've had no

> reduction in how I feel after (remember, if I skip a dose I start

getting

> the sleepies a couple of hours later.. so I would think if the

sucking on

> the candy were affecting absorption I'd probably know by the end of the

> day)

>

> Synthroid has a tendency to suppress TSH.. it depends on how your body

> reacts to it... if the T4 is building up the Pituitary can be releasing

> less TSH in response to that... yet if you're not converting

> sufficiently... then you end up with hypo symptoms.

>

> Things like low adrenal function, bad diet, etc can contribute to how

> well your tissues take up the T4... So, for example, you can have all

> kinds of T4 in your blood.. but your tissues, if they don't take it up,

> aren't going to be converting as they should....

>

> I know your last T3 test was high... but there is a variable there that

> will be ruled out with your next test.... so we have to wait to see....

>

> You may be hyper sensitive to adjustments, like me... in that case you

> have to make adjustments slow, give you body time to adjust... that

my be

> what happened before... the symptoms that bothered you so much was not

> the med itself.. but your system not accepting it right away...

>

> oh, sigh, it's such a bear figuring all this out... it would be soooo

> much easier if we were all the same... but... I've said it before...

I'll

> say it again... it's sooooo worth figuring it out... to be alive

> again....

>

> Don't give up!

>

> Go ahead with the basal thermometer that you have... see how your temp

> fluctuates during the day to get a feel for how accurate it's gonna be

> for you and then start charting your first morning temps.... You should

> be able to see a pattern.

>

> For me, what I saw was that after a dose my temp would come up a bit for

> a few days and then go back down.. but not as far as it was before... so

> it was kind of a 5 steps forward, 4 steps back kinda thing... does that

> make sense? As I got my doses higher the 'spikes' would be smaller until

> my temps got up to about 98.. they now fluctuate between about 97.8 and

> 98.2 by my thermometer... when I started I was way below 97.. My

> respirations went up pretty steady.... starting at 10.. they're not up

> about 20.... rising significantly when I'm active, as they should....

> dropping back to normal in 10 or 15 minutes of quiet time, as they

> should. A vast improvement from half an hour of panting on the bed from

> just taking a shower...

>

> Become familiar with how your body is now, how it reacts to adjustments

> and you'll be able to see things a LOT quicker than trying to set up

labs

> and wait for results.

>

> What you do with the older meds is gonna be up to you. As long as they

> have been stored properly they won't go bad, they could just be less

> potent. For myself, I'd still use them... keeping in mind that when they

> were gone and it was time to start on a fresh bottle that the dosage on

> the new tabs will have to be less to start... and then watch basals

again

> to see how I react.. I've had to do that a few times when I was using up

> old bottles of glandulars before I could order new (it sucks to be

> poor)...

>

> Anyway.. I still made it... and doing good now... and working on doing

> even better....

>

> Topper ()

>

[Guest guest]

You can do it... Pay attention to your body. Learn the basics, understand how the hormones act and work in your body and apply what you've read about other folks experiences to you. Once you figure out what your body needs... you're on the way.

It sounds complicated at first, but it is SO worth figuring out. You just become your body's monitor and guide and you get to have YOU back again!!!

I knnnooowwww, sounds dorky.. but it's true. Not just me... but a lot of the folks here are learning what's right for them.... NEVER give up...

Okay... the Synthroid. Rough equivalencies have 1 grain of Armour equaling 100 mcg of Synthroid... You want to drop 137 mcg of Synthroid and replace with Armour. If it were me, I'd drop the Synthroid completely and replace it with 1 grain of Armour and then watch basals for a couple of weeks and see how my body reacted. If temp, especially, doesn't drop but holds or increases slightly, you're doing good. If it drops and doesn't come back up... add another 1/4 grain.

What I saw in my body when I did adjustments is that my temp would increase a bit right after and then drop a few days later... but it wouldn't go as low as it was before the increase in dose.... Each time I did the increase it would react the same way... temp go up a few days, then drop.... when I finally go to a dose where my temp went up that bit for the few days and didn't drop.. I knew that I was getting really close... I was at 2 1/2 grain then... You might have heard my comments of having tried several times to get my dose up to 3, where I am now. My body is where it wants to be for now... I may creep it up again.. I may hold... I have to watch.

I think how much you take, the amount your body needs, depends on a lot of things. How well your body utilizes the hormone, how well it's absorbed by your body, your conversion rate, your physical size (the more body you have the more hormone it takes to saturate the tissues)your activity level, your eating style (foods, amounts, frequencies)your stress level.... That's part of why it seems that dosages, dosing and results are so varied from person to person. It's all boiling down to learning about how your body reacts and how much it needs your help.

I suspect that even though I'm a large person. I'm guessing around 400... too large for the household scale, that I'm doing as well on the 3 grain that I'm doing as I do because of multi-dosing it the way that I do (six times per day)... I keep my blood levels more consistent, closer to what my thyroid would be providing if it still functioned... so I dont' seem to need as much... that's only theory, I don't know for sure.

Multi-dosing may not fit everyone's schedule as it does mine. Maybe your body doesn't need the extra pampering.. you have to feel what is right for you....

I'm rambling... I'm gonna check your other questions and get focused again...

I've never had a chance to try Armour, it's out of my price range... My first year on Natural I was on Nutri-meds Porcine thyroid.. and did great on them... they are weaker than prescription grade but still a very good product. As my dosage went up they became expensive to maintain that dose and a friend offered to pick my meds for me from Mexico when she went across the border to get her own... SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper and prescription grade, the brand was Time Caps, the same brand the MyRXForLess is carrying now for it's generic. I've been doing well on it for nearly a year and a half.... Armour contains a small amount of sugar so I've heard it has a bit sweeter taste for those that have tried both Armour and the Generic, but since I've not tried Armour I can't give an observation.

As for taste. After a while you get used to it.. When I first started I often popped in a tic tac or hard candy.. or sipped my water while the pill was tucked under my tongue. I still do that when I'm feeling self conscious out in public, since I dose every three hours....

I have found that I like being very through with my tooth brush since sublingual dosing of the glandulars. I not only brush my teeth but my tongue, top and bottom, the roof of my mouth, and the insides of my cheeks. what I found was that it REALLY woke up my taste buds and the flavor of foods really increased...

I have become so used to the taste of the stuff it doesn't bother me a bit any more at all... you may have to play around with it until you find what works for you. Oh... I do split my tabs.. perhaps that increases the dissolve rate and they go away quicker? That might be part of it...

Well... did I thoroughly confuse you now? I hope not.. but if I did, PLEASE ask... the better you understand the basics and what you can adjust and tweak, the easier it will be to find your own method/routine.

Topper ()

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 19:53:01 -0000 "Debbie" writes:

Thanks, Topper for all the advice and encouragement. If you and theothers here have done it, so can I. I've reread your page onself-monitoring and am set to do all that. I tried doing the nutri-med adrenal sublingually yesterday -- and Idon't know how you do it! I could only stand it for a little whilebefore I was gagging. So I guess I'll have to swallow them.I'm going to go slow with any adjustments, based on all the pastproblems I've had. I certainly don't want to crash by going up tofast. But I'm also worried about going down too fast. If I'm on 1grain + .137 synthroid, should I just drop the synthroid and add alittle more armour in? Would that be too much of a drop? (Does thatmake sense?) Do you order from myrxforless? Have you tried generic? I thought Iwanted to stick with armour, but the price difference is prettysubstantial between that and generic. I know I've read some who'vehad no problems with the generic and some who didn't think it was aspotent. Looking forward to feeling better! Thanks -Debbie