Re: vegan couple sentenced for starving baby

[Guest guest]

On 5/12/07, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> I certainly didn't mean to say everyone is genetically capable of becoming

> vegan. People with defects in carotenoid->Vitamin A or plant based

> EFAs->elongated ones are more the exception than the rule.

But the poor bioavailability of carotenes as provitamin A in

vegetables and fruits is the rule, not the exception. There are very

few plant foods that would provide a *good* source of vitamin A that

would keep one out of the realm of marginal deficiency. Palm oil is

the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

> L. Reuteri can create B12 from cobalt (

> http://jb.asm.org/cgi/reprint/185/18/5643.pdf) - I wouldn't be surprised if

> other bacteria in our guts have this same capacity.

That's true and I'm sure there are, but this is lightyears away from

showing that one can live on a B12-free diet because of intestinal

production. Is the B12 secreted, or maintained within the bacterial

cell? Where is it produced in the intestine, and does it have the

chance to be bound by intrinsic factor and transported across the

intestinal lining due to its position? What quantities are produced,

and are they sufficient to meet the nutritional requirement of the

typical person? What is the balance between true B12 and harmful B12

analogues produced in the intestines, and how does the absence of

dietary B12 freed in the stomach affect their competition for

B12-binding proteins? What is the interindividual variation in

intestinal B12 production, and what with what degree of reliability

can it be used to meet the requirement? Does the vegan diet through

its effects on the intestinal flora encourage increased production of

intestinal B12 or decreased production? In the same manner does it

encourage an increased true:analogue ratio or a decreased ratio?

>B12 in cow's liver is

> directly relational to the cobalt status of the animal (

> http://www.saltinstitute.org/47r.html), and is generated by bacteria in its

> gut - while our capacity is obviously less, not being ruminents, it surely

> isn't nonexistant either.

It must be significant because it is significant in a cow? Humans eat

animal products whereas cows eat only grass. Why would you expect us

to have the same physiology with respect to a nutrient found in animal

products but not in grass?

When Price visited the Pacific island Viti Levu, he found that those

living the interior mountains considered it necessary to obtain

seafood from the sea at least once every three months.

" This was a matter of keen interest, and at the same time

disappointment since one of the purposes of the expedition to the

South Seas was to find, if possible, plants or fruits which together,

without the use of animal products, were capable of providing all of

the requirements of the body for growth and for maintenance of good

health and a high state of physical efficiency. "

It was so important that even when they were at war with the coast

dwellers, they would trade moutain plant foods for shellfish by

setting them in caches at the warzone in the night and picking up the

shellfish in the morning.

I don't know why they considered this so important, but the huge B12

content of shellfish might be one reason. Clams, for example, can

fulfill the B12 RDA with a single serving per month.

> In ruminents, cobalt deficiency symptoms are

> similar to B12 deficiency symptoms. So perhaps the issue is not so much the

> lack of B12 in the diet, but rather a lack of good flora and/or a lack of

> cobalt. To me, the biggest argument against veganism is simple: Most

> people's guts just arn't that good.

This seems like massive speculation considering your evidence comes

directly from exclusive herbivores.

> Perhaps veganism is

> the fruit of people in relatively selfish societies who are running out of

> space and resources. I doubt the natives would have ever let that happen,

> so this truly is a modern solution to a modern problem.

I have been a vegan and I am familiar with some of the literature, and

the driving arguments are that 1) meat-eating is cruel and murderous

2) meat-eating is unsustainable and 3) meat-eating is unhealthy.

No one that I know and certainly no one in this country is becoming

vegan because they don't have the resources to eat meat. One of the

arguments on theoretical grounds is that " the world " doesn't have

enough resources for " everyone " to eat meat, but this is a theoretical

abstraction, not a necessity.

There are natives all over the entire world who have practically no

resources whatsover, far, far fewer than we do, and they eat whatever

animal products they can obtain. It just isn't true that natives

don't run out of resources. Doing so has been the norm throughout

history and not doing so has been the exception. Prehistoric man

obliterated the mega-fauna and native Americans overfished waters.

Veganism is not found in the native populations with limited

resources, but it is found here, where there is abundant resources and

anyone can choose to easily live off meat and nothing else without

ever caring for or slaughtering an animal.

And grain-feeding of animals didn't start because of the absence of

pasture land. It started in the 1830s because it was more efficient,

profitable and " progressive. "

Chris

--

It is the Day of Resurrection

Let us be radiant for the festival

And let us embrace one another

Let us say, brethren, even to those that hate us

Let us forgive all things

In the Ressurrection

And thus let us cry:

Christ is risen from the dead,

Trampling down death by death,

And upon those in the tombs, bestowing life!

[Guest guest]

That is not an excuse. You can get breastmilk from another mother or

use a formula. I personally feed my own 6wk old and have increased my

supply enough to pump and provide enough breastmilk to feed a friends 4

month old. It is done and more and more. There is a whole network

available to provide breastmilk for those who adopt or don't have milk

www.milkshare.com

Yes....I agree about the homebirthing. Most homebirthers are very

natural and educated on natural ideal...the least of which is obviously

breastfeeding. Yes.... I am also a homebirther....just had my second

home VBAC (vaginal birth of cesarean).

Blessings,

Re: vegan couple sentenced for starving baby

Maybe she didn't have milk.

Irene

..

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/ms

gId=91867/stime=1178943918/nc1=4299904/nc2=3848642/nc3=3848525>

[Guest guest]

Here's a link to a story about the Bay Area Bug Eating Society

www.planetscott.com/babes/faq.asp

I've never eaten them myself, but when I heard that cooking

grasshoppers turns them pink like shrimp, I did get tempted to catch

one and fry it up. Alas, I couldn't find a single grasshopper here.

>

> , I can't believe that you of all people didn't come up with

the

> obvious answer for depletion of animal resources: Eat more bugs!

>

> Lynn S.

>

> ------

> Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

> http://www.siprelle.com

>

> NOTICE: The National Security Agency may have read this email without

> warning, warrant, or notice.

>

[Guest guest]

Well that is not the question I was answering. Someone asked why they

didn't breast feed. Sometimes people forget that sometimes the mother

doesn't have milk.

Irene

At 09:06 PM 5/12/07, you wrote:

>That is not an excuse. You can get breastmilk from another mother or

>use a formula. I personally feed my own 6wk old and have increased my

>supply enough to pump and provide enough breastmilk to feed a friends 4

>month old. It is done and more and more. There is a whole network

>available to provide breastmilk for those who adopt or don't have milk

>www.milkshare.com

>

>Yes....I agree about the homebirthing. Most homebirthers are very

>natural and educated on natural ideal...the least of which is obviously

>breastfeeding. Yes.... I am also a homebirther....just had my second

>home VBAC (vaginal birth of cesarean).

>

>Blessings,

>

>

>

> Re: vegan couple sentenced for starving baby

>

>Maybe she didn't have milk.

>Irene

>

>.

>

><<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/ms>http:\

//geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/ms

>gId=91867/stime=1178943918/nc1=4299904/nc2=3848642/nc3=3848525>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

She very well might not have had much milk if what they fed their baby is any

indication of their own diet. Then one asks for help or uses an alternative.

Re: vegan couple sentenced for starving baby

>

>Maybe she didn't have milk.

>Irene

>

>.

>

><<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/ms>http:\

//geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/ms

>gId=91867/stime=1178943918/nc1=4299904/nc2=3848642/nc3=3848525>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I got what you were saying and I tend to agree. I think it's highly

unusual for a woman to not be able to produce milk, but it does

sometimes happen. And if you're vegan and not taking in enough

protein and fat, that could be a serious problem, IMHO.

>

> >That is not an excuse. You can get breastmilk from another mother or

> >use a formula. I personally feed my own 6wk old and have increased my

> >supply enough to pump and provide enough breastmilk to feed a friends 4

> >month old. It is done and more and more. There is a whole network

> >available to provide breastmilk for those who adopt or don't have milk

> >www.milkshare.com

> >

> >Yes....I agree about the homebirthing. Most homebirthers are very

> >natural and educated on natural ideal...the least of which is obviously

> >breastfeeding. Yes.... I am also a homebirther....just had my second

> >home VBAC (vaginal birth of cesarean).

> >

> >Blessings,

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: vegan couple sentenced for starving baby

> >

> >Maybe she didn't have milk.

> >Irene

> >

> >.

> >

>

><<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/ms>http:\

//geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/ms

> >gId=91867/stime=1178943918/nc1=4299904/nc2=3848642/nc3=3848525>

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I was thinking of writing a parody of a NN couple sentenced for

starving their toddler - can't have bread because of the gluten; can't

have fruit because it feeds candida, can't have meat because too much

protein is bad for the kidneys, can't have pasteurized dairy because it

leads to leaky gut and is indigestible, and can't have soy because of

the phytoestrogens - no foods left! LOL

[Guest guest]

according to this, the mother was breastfeeding

From Crusador and Dr.

http://healthtruthrevealed.com/full-page.php?id=09582014505 & & page=article

>

> > I find it odd that home-birthers would not breastfeed. Seems like a

> > package deal.

>

> I have actually heard of hardcore vegans who believe that milk is bad

> no matter what the source--including breastmilk for babies.

>

> Lynn S.

>

> ------

> Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

> http://www.siprelle.com

>

> NOTICE: The National Security Agency may have read this email without

> warning, warrant, or notice.

>

[Guest guest]

zgraff@... writes:

>

> according to this, the mother was breastfeeding>>

I say, in coming years, we bombard Pres Hillary and or the Governor to have

that Sentence commuted. The government persecutes Vegans and HomeSchoolers.

.. </HTML>

[Guest guest]

Maybe I'm out of line here, but I don't think the issue here is that the

couple was vegan, it is that their child starved to death. That gets not

much pity from me. I support people's right to eat what they choose, but

absolutely not to make choices that lead to their child starving to death.

If the mother had really been breastfeeding, even if she was a vegan, the

baby would have been fine.

Lorien

On 5/28/07, Chaelcon@... <Chaelcon@...> wrote:

>

> zgraff@... writes:

> >

> > according to this, the mother was breastfeeding>>

>

> I say, in coming years, we bombard Pres Hillary and or the Governor to

> have

> that Sentence commuted. The government persecutes Vegans and

> HomeSchoolers.

> . </HTML>

>

--

http://wilsonsilverleaf.blogspot.com

[Guest guest]

--- Lorien <loriensilverleaf@...> wrote:

> If the mother had really been breastfeeding, even if she was a

> vegan, the baby would have been fine.

Lorien,

Apparently the vegan mother was breastfeeding - did you see the

article that Carolyn posted earlier today?

/message/92181

From Crusador and Dr.

http://healthtruthrevealed.com/full-page.php?id=09582014505 & & page=article

[Guest guest]

Though I have not practiced, I took a week long course be a lactation

counselor (not IBCLC, that is a much more rigorous training, though the

course I took can be used towards getting IBCLC). This is the course I

took: http://www.healthychildren.cc/

My understanding, backed up by the following info from

LLL<http://www.lalecheleague.org/NB/NBMarApr04p44.html>,

is that even severely malnourished women (very few vegans that I have met

are malnourished) will provide adequate milk.

> In recent years, research has confirmed that even if some nutrients are

> missing in a woman's daily diet, she will still produce milk that will help

> her child grow. There is very little difference in the milk of healthy

> mothers and mothers who are severely malnourished. For example, if a

> mother's diet is lacking in calories, her body makes up the deficit, drawing

> on the reserves laid down during pregnancy or before. Unless there is a

> physical reason for low milk production, a woman who breastfeeds on cue will

> be able to produce enough milk for her baby, regardless of what she eats.

>

Yes, I did read the article linked, particularly this part, which rung

untrue to me. I see that the author is a Certified Clinical Nutritionist,

but that doesn't mean she has any training in lactation or as a lactation

specialist.

The mother had clearly tried to breast feed as well, but like many vegans

> she had an inadequate supply of breast milk because of the limitations of

> her diet and depletion of her own nutritional stores because of pregnancy.

At first the mother in the case denied that she had given her child

breastmilk at all, then she said she had breastfed some. I have followed

this case very closely, ready to defend if it was really about the couple's

choice to be vegan, but in the end concluded that there was something much

deeper going on in the case. I have known plenty of vegans who have

breastfed with no problem (even tandem!). Anytime you undertake any diet

you should take care to make sure you are getting adequate nutrition. As an

adult you have the choice no to, of course. But being a mother myself, I

have very little sympathy for people who don't even bother to try and

understand what kind of nutrition an infant needs if they choose not to

exclusively breastfeed.

So that's where I'm coming from on this one; I should have been more

explicit in my original post.

Lorien

On 5/28/07, <oz4caster@...> wrote:

>

> --- Lorien <loriensilverleaf@...> wrote:

> > If the mother had really been breastfeeding, even if she was a

> > vegan, the baby would have been fine.

>

> Lorien,

>

> Apparently the vegan mother was breastfeeding - did you see the

> article that Carolyn posted earlier today?

> /message/92181

>

> From Crusador and Dr.

> http://healthtruthrevealed.com/full-page.php?id=09582014505 & & page=article

>

>

>

>

--

http://wilsonsilverleaf.blogspot.com