Re: vegan couple sentenced for starving baby

[Guest guest]

Carolyn,

Thank you for the article. That is so awful!!!!!! That poor baby! That just

goes to show that we need to get the word out about how important animal fats

are to our children's development.

G

</HTML>

[Guest guest]

One can be vegan and still consume adequate saturated fats - just look at

all the high quality palm and coconut oils that are available. We do a lot

of poo-pooing the vegans here, but one can truly have a healthy diet that is

animal product free, it just takes a lot more knowledge and effort than your

average person is going to put in.

It really is awful that this happened. Soy formula, in all its negativity,

is at least designed to be sustaining.

-Lana

On 5/11/07, ginger587@... <ginger587@...> wrote:

>

> Carolyn,

>

> Thank you for the article. That is so awful!!!!!! That poor baby! That

> just

> goes to show that we need to get the word out about how important animal

> fats

> are to our children's development.

>

> G

>

[Guest guest]

I think they were well-intentioned but quite stupid. It seems absurd to give

them a long sentence for doing what they thought was best.

.. </HTML>

[Guest guest]

All,

I did not mean to sound unsympathetic towards the family. I could only

imagine what they are going through. My heart goes out to them. Also, in my

previous

e-mail when I was referring to animal fats and the development of our

children, that is just my humble opinion. I am not condeming vegetarians at all.

Ginger </HTML>

[Guest guest]

On 5/11/07, ginger587@... <ginger587@...> wrote:

> Thank you for the article. That is so awful!!!!!! That poor baby! That just

> goes to show that we need to get the word out about how important animal

> fats

> are to our children's development.

Let's think of how the parents will suffer also.

Chris

--

It is the Day of Resurrection

Let us be radiant for the festival

And let us embrace one another

Let us say, brethren, even to those that hate us

Let us forgive all things

In the Ressurrection

And thus let us cry:

Christ is risen from the dead,

Trampling down death by death,

And upon those in the tombs, bestowing life!

[Guest guest]

On 5/11/07, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> It really is awful that this happened. Soy formula, in all its negativity,

> is at least designed to be sustaining.

Right. Soy formula isn't good, but babies won't die on it. Soy milk

and soy formula are two completely different things.

Chris

--

It is the Day of Resurrection

Let us be radiant for the festival

And let us embrace one another

Let us say, brethren, even to those that hate us

Let us forgive all things

In the Ressurrection

And thus let us cry:

Christ is risen from the dead,

Trampling down death by death,

And upon those in the tombs, bestowing life!

[Guest guest]

You do have to wonder about the couple. They had the baby at home, but

were using no breatfeeding?

But whats the thing about " Im dying in here...it could take 3 years " ?

Not enough information to come to any sensible thought IMHO.

Does makes me wonder if its not just media hype to promote big brother

stepping in and insisting we all use formulas provided by WIC etc.

[Guest guest]

I don't agree. Making a bad choice and realizing it is wrong...then

making a change is one thing. But they continued to neglect this baby

that was obviously SICK....and then dying. That is child

abuse...straight out child abuse.

Re: vegan couple sentenced for starving baby

I think they were well-intentioned but quite stupid. It seems absurd to

give

them a long sentence for doing what they thought was best.

..

..

<http://geo./serv?s=97359714/grpId=386954/grpspId=1705060950/ms

gId=91830/stime=1178909956/nc1=3848446/nc2=3848533/nc3=3848640>

[Guest guest]

On 5/11/07, <rstump@...> wrote:

> I don't agree. Making a bad choice and realizing it is wrong...then

> making a change is one thing. But they continued to neglect this baby

> that was obviously SICK....and then dying. That is child

> abuse...straight out child abuse.

The article I read didn't give any details that could explain what

chances they had to realize this and seek help, but it can in any case

be as easily explained by ignorance as malice. If they didn't know

that soy milk cannot support a baby, they may have had no idea that it

could be the reason the baby was not thriving.

They should have seen a doctor, but if it was their first child and

they had no one around to teach them, they may have been completely

ignorant about what to do and what were sufficient signs that a baby

was in danger versus sick with something it would overcome. Where was

the baby's grandparents? Part of childrearing must be common sense

and instinct, but a lot of it, I think, is learned. Our family

structures and support frameworks are falling apart in this country.

The sentence seems incredibly cruel and uncompassionate. Without a

sentence, they would be punished severely for their ignorance and

neglect by their loss and guilt alone. They will be in separate

prisons now, potentially for life, and not even be able to visit each

other for the most minute consolation. Was there any psychological

testimony? I suppose this might be justified if several independent

expert opinions concluded that they showed no remorse for what

happened and that they did it deliberately and would do it again.

Otherwise, I don't think it's right for the state to help us take our

contempt for their ignorance and lack of common sense out on them by

making a tragedy into a wound kept open and salted for decades to

come.

Chris

--

It is the Day of Resurrection

Let us be radiant for the festival

And let us embrace one another

Let us say, brethren, even to those that hate us

Let us forgive all things

In the Ressurrection

And thus let us cry:

Christ is risen from the dead,

Trampling down death by death,

And upon those in the tombs, bestowing life!

[Guest guest]

When I read htis article yesterday, it reminded me of when something the midwife

said when

she visited shortly after my son was born. She said they were checking on

feeding more since

a two month old baby died because it's parents were whizzing up their dinners -

fish and

chips, pizza and chips, etc, for the baby.

> > I don't agree. Making a bad choice and realizing it is wrong...then

> > making a change is one thing. But they continued to neglect this baby

> > that was obviously SICK....and then dying. That is child

> > abuse...straight out child abuse.

>

> The article I read didn't give any details that could explain what

> chances they had to realize this and seek help, but it can in any case

> be as easily explained by ignorance as malice. If they didn't know

> that soy milk cannot support a baby, they may have had no idea that it

> could be the reason the baby was not thriving.

[Guest guest]

We do a lot of poo-pooing the vegans here, but

>one can truly have a healthy diet that is animal product free,

>it just takes a lot more knowledge and effort than your

>average person is going to put in.

Well, Weston Price couldn't find a healthy vegan culture and has taught us

the importance of at least *some* animal foods in the diet. ALL the groups

he studied highly valued animal foods, especially organ meats and animal

fats - surely this teaches us something? Further, where would a healthy

vegan get adequage B12? What if they can't convert carotenoids to vitamin A

efficiently? What if they can't convert plant-based EFAs to elongated animal

based ones? I honestly don't understand your statement.

Suze

[Guest guest]

chrismasterjohn@... writes:

> The sentence seems incredibly cruel and uncompassionate. Without a

> sentence, they would be punished severely for their ignorance and

> neglect by their loss and guilt alone. They will be in separate

> prisons now, potentially for life, and not even be able to visit each

> other for the most minute consolation. >>

I'm not a vegetarian, myself. I'm guessing that whatever religion they are is

not my own (fundamentalist Christian). But from what little I know, these

folks are being crucified and sold down the river (to mix metaphors). It just

doesn't add up.

.. </HTML>

[Guest guest]

>

> We do a lot of poo-pooing the vegans here, but

> >one can truly have a healthy diet that is animal product free,

> >it just takes a lot more knowledge and effort than your

> >average person is going to put in.

I have yet to see a healthy Vegan person. I take that back...there is

one. Carl used to be a vegan (maybe he still is). Now I am

going to go on a rant against one of the main apostles of veganism,

Pitchford, author of the encyclopaedic, " Healing with Whole

Foods: Asian Traditions and Modern Nutrition " .

Now you would expect the vegan guru, Pitchford, to be in robust

health, right? I invite anyone who believes in this man (and

apparently there are many) to go spend a few days at Heartwood

Institute where he teaches. Heartwood is a lovely place in Humboldt

County and spending a few days there could be a pleasant vacation.

The cuisine is vegetarian (no dairy, usually, but eggs sometimes),

but they used to have a seperate kitchen where you could prepare what

you like. Once in a while they would serve fish...on those days the

owner of the place Bruce would not enter the dining room for fear of

the negative energy affecting his karma. I am not joking about this

either.

In 1991, I spent 7 months a Heartwood, studying massage therapy. At

that time Pitchford was preparing the text for his oeuvre.

Pitchford is a gaunt, stick man with dark rings under his eyes. He

had the anorexic look way before it became fashionable. I am

embarrassed to admit that I actually paid him for some treatments.

He gave me acupuncture (for which I am not sure he is even licensed)

and it was one of the most painful ordeals of my life (even though I

have had acupuncture many times and never had any pain approaching

that). When it came time to prescribe herbs, he left me on the

therapy table, while he employed a pendulum to decide what I should

be given. It appeared that his main diagnostic tool was the pendulum.

One time an acupuncturist from China visited Heartwood and gave

treatments to several people in a public demonstration of his

methodology. This chinese doctor also advised several of the

patients to take B vitamins (no doubt they needed it from their vegan

diet). Pitchford denounced the doctor as not being " pure "

enough...because he prescribed vitamins.

One time in the dining hall, we got on the subject of Tibetan

buddhism. informed me that meat eaters are much more prone to

psychological problems and that this is the reason that tibetan

buddhism (whose monks eat meat) elaborates on psychology so much.

Ok Ok, this rant was ad hominem but, seriously, do you want to follow

the dietary advice of such a person?

If after going to Heartwood you still think this guy is a nutritional

wiseman, then please pass me your email address, because I want to

dispatch my " SEND ME ALL OF YOUR MONEY " email to you.

I suppose he could have changed over the years but I doubt it. Last

year I took a Tai Qi class and the instructor went over the Chinese 5

element theory..some of which pertains to food. Someone asked the

instructor a good book on food. He answered, "

Pitchford's 'Healing With Whole Foods'. I could not hold back my

gasp.

[Guest guest]

Vegan or no, obviously some people don't know how to take care of a baby. I

can't imagine even a vegan pregnancy book or a vegan friend telling a mother to

feed their newborn regular soy milk and apple juice (although my ped told my mom

to start giving me tomato and orange juice at 3 weeks as well as formula, so you

never know).

I find it odd that home-birthers would not breastfeed. Seems like a package

deal.

They must not have done any research on caring for infants at all. So incredibly

sad.

D.

Re: vegan couple sentenced for starving baby

Carolyn,

Thank you for the article. That is so awful!!!!!! That poor baby! That just

goes to show that we need to get the word out about how important animal fats

are to our children's development.

G

</HTML>

[Guest guest]

> I find it odd that home-birthers would not breastfeed. Seems like a

> package deal.

I have actually heard of hardcore vegans who believe that milk is bad

no matter what the source--including breastmilk for babies.

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

http://www.siprelle.com

NOTICE: The National Security Agency may have read this email without

warning, warrant, or notice.

[Guest guest]

Lynn Siprelle wrote:

>> I find it odd that home-birthers would not breastfeed. Seems like a

>> package deal.

>>

>

> I have actually heard of hardcore vegans who believe that milk is bad

> no matter what the source--including breastmilk for babies.

>

> Lynn S.

How does that work on a rational level? I mean, I get the idea that

some people believe that animal meat is bad and that even using animal

products can be exploitative, therefore they abstain. But breasts were

designed to lactate and babies have nursing reflexes. It's a design

fit. How could that be wrong, even from a philosophical standpoint?

All of the vegans I've known nursed. Some even called the placenta the

" only cruelty-free meat. " Guess they weren't hardcore?

--s

[Guest guest]

> How could that be wrong, even from a philosophical standpoint?

> All of the vegans I've known nursed. Some even called the placenta the

> " only cruelty-free meat. " Guess they weren't hardcore?

I think they were very deluded; I hesitate to even call them " vegans. "

They believed that milk causes phlegm and phlegm is bad therefore all

milk is bad and they tried to feed their baby soy milk, very much like

this couple, but this was a few years ago.

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

http://www.siprelle.com

NOTICE: The National Security Agency may have read this email without

warning, warrant, or notice.

[Guest guest]

Suzanne,

> > I have actually heard of hardcore vegans who believe that milk is bad

> > no matter what the source--including breastmilk for babies.

> How does that work on a rational level?

It doesn't.

Chris

--

It is the Day of Resurrection

Let us be radiant for the festival

And let us embrace one another

Let us say, brethren, even to those that hate us

Let us forgive all things

In the Ressurrection

And thus let us cry:

Christ is risen from the dead,

Trampling down death by death,

And upon those in the tombs, bestowing life!

[Guest guest]

Maybe she didn't have milk.

Irene

At 05:04 PM 5/11/07, you wrote:

>Vegan or no, obviously some people don't know how to take care of a baby.

>I can't imagine even a vegan pregnancy book or a vegan friend telling a

>mother to feed their newborn regular soy milk and apple juice (although my

>ped told my mom to start giving me tomato and orange juice at 3 weeks as

>well as formula, so you never know).

>

>I find it odd that home-birthers would not breastfeed. Seems like a

>package deal.

>

>They must not have done any research on caring for infants at all. So

>incredibly sad.

>

>D.

>

>

> Re: vegan couple sentenced for starving baby

>

>Carolyn,

>

>Thank you for the article. That is so awful!!!!!! That poor baby! That just

>goes to show that we need to get the word out about how important animal fats

>are to our children's development.

>

>G

></HTML>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 5/11/07, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> One can be vegan and still consume adequate saturated fats - just look at

> all the high quality palm and coconut oils that are available. We do a lot

> of poo-pooing the vegans here, but one can truly have a healthy diet that is

> animal product free, it just takes a lot more knowledge and effort than your

> average person is going to put in.

Perhaps, but we don't have one historical example of any *group* that

pursued a *vegan* diet successfully, even amongst those who had access

to plenty of fruit/nut based saturated fats.

No I think veganism falls in line with a lot of other 'isms " that are

essentially the fruit of people in relatively prosperous societies who

have lots of time on their hands, historically speaking.

Thats not to say there may not be individuals who prosper on such a

diet, but I have yet to find a prospering adult vegan who was vegan

from birth, or who has never cheated, or who has produced

intergenerational vegans. Of course I'm just one man, and could very

well be wrong. But IMO, the impact of animal products is so profound

that any use of them, even occasionally, negates any talk of the value

of veganism.

--

This is the day of resurrection,

Let us be illumined by the feast,

Let us embrace each other,

Let us call " brothers " even those that hate us,

And forgive all by the resurrection,

And so let us cry: Christ is risen from the dead,

Trampling down death by death,

And upon those in the tombs bestowing life.

Christ is risen!

[Guest guest]

Masterjohn wrote:

> Suzanne,

>

>

>>> I have actually heard of hardcore vegans who believe that milk is bad

>>> no matter what the source--including breastmilk for babies.

>>>

>

>

>> How does that work on a rational level?

>>

>

> It doesn't.

>

> Chris

>

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. It appears, without knowing the back

story and knowing that there's *always* a back story that the news

*never* includes, that these naive folk were hanging on to a nutritional

philosophical ideal to the bitterest end....

--s

[Guest guest]

The health of native cultures had to do with the availability of the foods

as well as the knowledge to eat them. We can obtain a huge variety of plant

foods simply by going to the supermarket. It has become a lot easier to be

vegan, even though I personally don't see why it would be desirable.

Certainly a healthy lacto-ovo or pesca-vegetarian diet would be far easier

to implement properly than a true vegan one (with a meat diet being far

easier than all of the above) - but to be completely out of the realm of

possibility? I don't think so.

I'm not big on mainstream vegan diets. Most of you know how I feel about

sugar being a source of calories - so a good number of vegan diets out there

would not fall under my personal concept of a healthy diet. Now, if someone

were to take NN foods - properly prepared roots, fermented vegetables,

soaked grains, sourdough breads, fermented legumes, vegetable broths, red

palm oil, palm kernel oil, coconut milk, nut and seed butters made from

crispy nuts, etc. That would be a healthy diet IMHO, or at least a far

healthier diet than most currently out there.

Suze, to address your points:

I certainly didn't mean to say everyone is genetically capable of becoming

vegan. People with defects in carotenoid->Vitamin A or plant based

EFAs->elongated ones are more the exception than the rule. I don't think

this is a good argument against vegan diets. Under that logic one could say

that meat-eating is contraindicated because of urea cycle and metabolic acid

disorders that require restricted protein diets. There will always be a

sub-sect of people who are not well suited to a particular diet due to a

defect - they are more the extremes than the rule of thumb.

L. Reuteri can create B12 from cobalt (

http://jb.asm.org/cgi/reprint/185/18/5643.pdf) - I wouldn't be surprised if

other bacteria in our guts have this same capacity. B12 in cow's liver is

directly relational to the cobalt status of the animal (

http://www.saltinstitute.org/47r.html), and is generated by bacteria in its

gut - while our capacity is obviously less, not being ruminents, it surely

isn't nonexistant either. In ruminents, cobalt deficiency symptoms are

similar to B12 deficiency symptoms. So perhaps the issue is not so much the

lack of B12 in the diet, but rather a lack of good flora and/or a lack of

cobalt. To me, the biggest argument against veganism is simple: Most

people's guts just arn't that good.

:

You make some good points. But I differ from you in the belief that

discussion of a healthy vegan diet is useless simply because the precident

has been a meat containing one. Unfortunately due to modern beliefs about

life, and the right to it no matter what, we are severely disrespecting a

very important concept: carrying capacity. Part of the reason why animals

are kept in confinement and fed grain is because we are running out of land

to pasture them all on. It is all fine and dandy now just to get your meat

from a better source but that isn't going to work (at least not in

industrialized society) if everyone starts to do it. Perhaps veganism is

the fruit of people in relatively selfish societies who are running out of

space and resources. I doubt the natives would have ever let that happen,

so this truly is a modern solution to a modern problem.

And about this case in particular:

Most of the vegan pages I've visited in the last few days strongly reccomend

breastfeeding for at least a year, if not two. I have found very few if any

that supported soy based formulas (unless breastfeeding was not available),

and absolutely none that reccomended soy milk or juice or suggested that

breastfeeding was non-vegan. These people wern't stereotypical vegans and

vegans should not be judged by their mistakes.

-Lana

-----

Well, Weston Price couldn't find a healthy vegan culture and has taught us

> the importance of at least *some* animal foods in the diet. ALL the groups

> he studied highly valued animal foods, especially organ meats and animal

> fats - surely this teaches us something? Further, where would a healthy

> vegan get adequage B12? What if they can't convert carotenoids to vitamin

> A

> efficiently? What if they can't convert plant-based EFAs to elongated

> animal

> based ones? I honestly don't understand your statement.

>

Suze

-----

No I think veganism falls in line with a lot of other 'isms " that are

essentially the fruit of people in relatively prosperous societies who

have lots of time on their hands, historically speaking.

<snip>

But IMO, the impact of animal products is so profound

that any use of them, even occasionally, negates any talk of the value

of veganism.

[Guest guest]

On 5/12/07, Lana Gibbons <lana.m.gibbons@...> wrote:

> :

>

> You make some good points. But I differ from you in the belief that

> discussion of a healthy vegan diet is useless simply because the precident

> has been a meat containing one.

Lana,

I don't believe discussing the health of a vegan diet is useless in

general. I do believe that an individual who is currently healthy on a

vegan diet *but* has not been a vegan from birth, or " cheats " over the

years or occasionally yet still believes they are vegan, cannot

account for their current state of health on the basis of being a

vegan alone. The use of animals must be factored in.

I also believe there is coming a day when humans will once again be

vegetarian perhaps even vegan, but we are a *long* way from that day,

and it is a discussion that in some ways is far from this topic.

> Unfortunately due to modern beliefs about

> life, and the right to it no matter what, we are severely disrespecting a

> very important concept: carrying capacity. Part of the reason why animals

> are kept in confinement and fed grain is because we are running out of land

> to pasture them all on. It is all fine and dandy now just to get your meat

> from a better source but that isn't going to work (at least not in

> industrialized society) if everyone starts to do it.

Hmmm...I 'm not much given to pronouncements of limitation of this

sort, but unless you want to really engage the issue (and to be honest

I don't have the time), I will just agree to disagree with you.

> Perhaps veganism is

> the fruit of people in relatively selfish societies who are running out of

> space and resources. I doubt the natives would have ever let that happen,

> so this truly is a modern solution to a modern problem.

Not quite. Several native groups were on the verge of using up their

animal resources (some of the native americans come to mind). The use

and renewal of resources is a deep and fascinating issue and has been

an issue both in ancient and modern times.

Thanks for your thoughtful response.

--

This is the day of resurrection,

Let us be illumined by the feast,

Let us embrace each other,

Let us call " brothers " even those that hate us,

And forgive all by the resurrection,

And so let us cry: Christ is risen from the dead,

Trampling down death by death,

And upon those in the tombs bestowing life.

Christ is risen!

[Guest guest]

> Yeah, that's what I thought, too. It appears, without knowing the back

> story and knowing that there's *always* a back story that the news

> *never* includes, that these naive folk were hanging on to a

> nutritional

> philosophical ideal to the bitterest end....

There are countless cases of this out there--people who have killed

themselves with macrobiotics, babies with failure to thrive. I know of

one case where a rigid application of a particular parenting method

(that advocates very rigid feeding schedules and rapping babies with a

glue stick if they reach for their food instead of waiting to be fed)

in anorexia--in a child under 2 years old.

In the end, it's as Van on says: No guru, no method, no teacher.

You have to find these things out for yourself with trial and error. If

" the book " says that a certain eating pattern is right, but it doesn't

work for you, then discard " the book " and try something else.

Unfortunately, many people hate thinking for themselves. They need a

guru, a method, a teacher. And that's sad.

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

http://www.siprelle.com

NOTICE: The National Security Agency may have read this email without

warning, warrant, or notice.

[Guest guest]

, I can't believe that you of all people didn't come up with the

obvious answer for depletion of animal resources: Eat more bugs!

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

http://www.siprelle.com

NOTICE: The National Security Agency may have read this email without

warning, warrant, or notice.