Re: immune system rundown and joint problems?

[Guest guest]

I, too, notice that joint pains are one of the first symptoms of

less-than-optimal-health. Since my alt doctor has been treating me for

a host of immune problems, it would seem there is a connection between

immune function and joint pain. I personally (from loads of reading on

the topic) have concluded that low immune function leads to general

bodily inflammation. This would help to explain the joint problems

that seem to accompany low immune function.

For me personally, my body is very sensitive to my eating patterns.

Not that I have a specific list of foods, but I notice when I go off

NT eating too much, I start to get the joint pains and other

inflammation symptoms that used to plague me before my doctor helped

me strengthen my immune system. Not to mention, my weight can go up

1-2 lbs in one day from one day of non-NT, non-organic eating. Very

strange.

I hope this helps,

Tamara

>

> It's very strange. Anyone think there could be a connection between

> the limping and my immune system being run down? Anything in

> particular I should do about it?

[Guest guest]

In regards to the knee thing, in the world of Applied Kinisiology,

the knee is linked to the adrenal glands and of course stressed

adrenals and immune problems go hand in hand. Fibromyalgia is an

immune dysfunction. Turmeric is supposed to be a great anti-

inflammatory and I commonly put a teaspoon in water. That mental

stress is doing you in. Is it related to getting ready for the

conference?

I have had knee problems for over a decade and when I used to go to

the many physical therapists when I was in the world of " the knee

bone is connected to the....nothing, nothing is connected, we

completely isolate everything " they would always say " stretch your

IT bands. " Now that wasn't why my knees bothered me but stretching

them did help releive pain b/c they were tight. Let me know if you

want me to tell you the stretch. I think stretching could have the

secondary benefit of helping to relax the mind too.

>

> Hey everyone,

>

> My immune system has been run down recently, due to a recent

sickness,

> an overwhelming amount of stress, and possibly lack of coconut

oil. I

> have been having periodic shortness of breath that might be

related,

> that never gets beyond discomfort. I swabbed my nose with sterile

> cotton and a couple hours later wound up with what seems to be a

local

> staph infection, probably from the cotton making micro-abrasions

and a

> pathogenic in-house colony subsequently getting out of line. I

have

> something on my leg that seems like it could be very mild impetigo

or

> something, which I haven't had in many years.

>

> My knees have been slightly sore all week, but today my right knee

has

> gotten so bad -- for no apparent reason -- that I have a slight

limp!

>

> It's very strange. Anyone think there could be a connection

between

> the limping and my immune system being run down? Anything in

> particular I should do about it?

>

> Thanks,

> Chris

>

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

Considering these symptoms and others taken together, they seemed

reminiscent to me of some symptoms of botulism and some symptoms of

tetanus, so I Googled " clostridium asthma " and got some results

supportive of a possible connection, that I haven't thoroughly looked

through.

Also, I did a bit of poking arround and found that many good bacteria

such as lactobacilli and bifidi break down oxalates, not just

oxalobacter.

It doesn't seem too far out to me to think that a number of these

problems are dysbiosis-related. Lack of HCl, some poor quality food

and being sick and stressed all at the same time could let some

clostridium or whatever that may have been hiding in a nook or cranny

run wild.

Any thoughts?

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 10/20/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> Considering these symptoms and others taken together, they seemed

> reminiscent to me of some symptoms of botulism and some symptoms of

> tetanus, so I Googled " clostridium asthma " and got some results

> supportive of a possible connection, that I haven't thoroughly looked

> through.

I was actually thinking of something in the clostridium genus that

isn't necessarily these too, but since I have eaten a real lot of

honey in the last few years and have a problem with inadequate stomach

acid, it doesn't seem like a very radical idea that I would have c.

botulinum spores hanging around in there. Yeeks.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

On 10/20/06, Masterjohn <chrismasterjohn@...> wrote:

> I was actually thinking of something in the clostridium genus that

> isn't necessarily these too, but since I have eaten a real lot of

> honey in the last few years and have a problem with inadequate stomach

> acid, it doesn't seem like a very radical idea that I would have c.

> botulinum spores hanging around in there. Yeeks.

Or clostridium dificile, which is associated with proton pump

inhibitors (and thus lack of stomach acidity) and asthma:

==========

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=52723

Is Clostridium Difficile-Associated Disease Linked To Use Of Common

Stomach Medication?

Clostridium difficile-associated disease (CDAD), often associated with

antibiotic use, is recognized as a major avoidable cause of illness

and death in hospital patients. CDAD also occurs in the community.

Recently, controversy has surrounded a possible link of

community-acquired CDAD to the use of proton pump inhibitors (PPIs),

drugs commonly used to suppress acid production in the stomach.

========

========

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1034/j.1399-3038.2002.01066.x?journa\

lCode=pai

Clostridium difficile, atopy and wheeze during the first year of life

=========

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

It tugged at some memories of some bad articles I read on parasites,

but the link was reversed when I googled it - asthma is the immune

system reacting as if there were parasites when there aren't any

ghtthere. Here's an interesting link for you:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2006/4/30/91945/8971 " food for

thought " ! LOL!

>

> Considering these symptoms and others taken together, they seemed

> reminiscent to me of some symptoms of botulism and some symptoms of

> tetanus, so I Googled " clostridium asthma " and got some results

> supportive of a possible connection, that I haven't thoroughly

looked

> through.

>

> Also, I did a bit of poking arround and found that many good

bacteria

> such as lactobacilli and bifidi break down oxalates, not just

> oxalobacter.

>

> It doesn't seem too far out to me to think that a number of these

> problems are dysbiosis-related. Lack of HCl, some poor quality

food

> and being sick and stressed all at the same time could let some

> clostridium or whatever that may have been hiding in a nook or

cranny

> run wild.

>

> Any thoughts?

>

> Chris

>

>

> --

> The Truth About Cholesterol

> Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

> http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

>

[Guest guest]

!. Win the lottery

2. Rest

3. Read " The Healing Sun "

4. Put raw honey on your impetigo at night.

On Oct 19, 2006, at 1:43 PM, Masterjohn wrote:

> My immune system has been run down recently, due to a recent sickness,

> an overwhelming amount of stress

Parashis

artpages@...

zine:

artpagesonline.com

portfolio:

http://www.artpagesonline.com/EPportfolio/000portfolio.html

[Guest guest]

>

> > In regards to the knee thing, in the world of Applied Kinisiology,

> > the knee is linked to the adrenal glands and of course stressed

> > adrenals and immune problems go hand in hand.

>

> Does the same go for acupuncture? I know there is some merit to the

> acupuncture meridians with respect to DC currents.

>

According to what I've read, weakened knee strength is seen as directly

related to kidney problems in Chinese medicine.

[Guest guest]

>

> It also contains plenty of free glutamate. Dengate says don't cook

> stocks for more than 1-2 hours.

Whatever will that be worth in terms of nutrients, a stock simmered

1-2 hours? Why not sip hot water then?

> > I don't think I can possible " sort out " my meat supply the way you do,

> > because I do not have access to any meat that is guaranteed fresh the

> > same way yours is.

>

> I am lucky in that respect. I don't know what things are like in the

> US, but I would be stuffed if I still lived in a city here in the UK.

I am luckier still that I can have an animal raised as I wish and

slaughtered at will ... although that means I cannot buy individual

fresh cuts (but I shouldn't want the standbys the market sells in any

case). Guess I am particular when in comes to food, much like the

traditional peoples were.

> Just to clarify. When you say hamburger - you mean beefburger? Pork

> isn't allowed. Beef is often hung. Lamb and chicken are safer. Try

> eating chicken and see if you react to that?

Puhlease. We are WAPFers here. It is ABSOLUTELY fantastic that you

offer guidance to those unfortunate souls who have big issues with

what you call " food chemicals, " which seem to me to be often naturally

occurring substances in whole foods. But most of us can eat beef and

reindeer as we choose. Hung well or not. Pork is allowed if we want

it. IOW, can we please qualify these highly restrictive

recommendations as being appropriate for the population that finds

use/need for them? And not the population at large? Even Idol

does not try to subjugate his list to his dietary preferences of low

carb fare. Many food choices are honored here.

It is like Native Nutrition has now become Failsafe Nutrition, with

anyone eating fruits and/or veg some fringe group for whom dietary

problems should be plainly obvious. Well, I say we can all be

accommodated if we seek nutrient density above all else. Not many

people thrive on only a meat and potato diet. And no anecdotes will

convince me otherwise. I eat plenty of salicylatic foods and I don't

have issues nor do I feel guilty about it. So there.

If you want to write a book about this, go ahead. I will go on eating

whole foods and loving my life and my family without any fear.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

> Deanna, obviously my advice to on how to deal with his

> possible/probable food chemical sensitivities has absolutely

> infuriated you.

No it did not infuriate me. But if I have upset you in any way I

apologize.

>

> Why? Because it contradicts what you feel are the NN " rules " ? That I'm

> deviating from cannon? Subverting WAPF guidelines? Insulting you

> personally, somehow? It is a good job your interpretation of NN is not

> the only interpretation, nor even most people's interpretation,

> otherwise I would have to break with WAPF entirely, and I have no

> desire to do that.

No, again, I am not infuriated. I guess it just strikes me that the

food chemical theme is like a broken record. That and some of the

recommendations on failsafe do seem less than optimal for nutrition, imho.

>

> By the way, I don't see you making furious statements when people say

> they use vitamin pills, when artificial vitamins are discouraged as

> part of the WAPF guidelines?

For the last time I am not furious. I do not take any vitamins

myself, so vitamin discussions just don't tickle my fancy - I skim

over those details.

> Why do you feel it's necessary to interfere with me giving guidance

to who is trying the elimination diet?

This is an open forum, I can post as I choose as long as moderators

agree. It was just that I happened to choose this post as the broth

recommendation seemed ludricrous for gaining any minerals from the

bones. So I spoke up.

>

>

> IOW, can we please qualify these highly restrictive

> > recommendations as being appropriate for the population that finds

> > use/need for them?

>

> Presumably you think celiacs should eat gluten, people who are

> allergic to milk should drink milk, anaphylactic reactions to eggs are

> just, well, a case of getting over it, phytates simply don't matter,

> and while we're at it, since everyone has a problem with cyanide,

> let's question whether cyanide restriction is appropriate for the

> population that finds use/need for it?

Not so. But again, many of us don't need to restrict things so much

as failsafe. When new people join and there is unqualified

discussion of " Pork is not allowed, " or whathaveyou, they may be

confused about native diets (which do indeed sometimes contain pork).

> I haven't been imposing anything on the population at large, as well

> you know. I've certainly made suggestions when people have health

> problems that NN has not fixed. I would not be so stupid as to tell

> healthy people to eat dramatically less salicylates and amines than

> they can handle, when they don't need to. What would be the point of

> that? Please explain to me where you got this ridiculous idea.

It seems like your answer for everything is failsafe, that is all. I

may be mistaken in this regard, and if so, I beg your pardon.

> If I have been dominating this board, I apologise. I have been trying

> very hard to restrict my posts to responding to existing enquiries

> from people, and ensuring that I spend only one or two lines on other

> possible enquiries, as part of other people's broader nutritional

> suggestions. If no one has anything else to talk about, that's not my

> fault.

You are welcome to dominate the board as you and Listgod see fit.

> To that I would add the caveat, nutrient density, with limited

> toxicity for the individual. I don't see how that contradicts WAPF

> guidelines, since WAPF is always stating there are problems with

> antinutrients like free glutamates, phytates, oxalates, etc, that need

> to be dealt with. To this I have tried to bring the notion of the

> toxicity of amines, salicylates, lectins, and how these vary across

> populations, genetic or otherwise, so everyone's needs are different.

Yes, and let's not forget mycotoxins. It may be an issue of tone

where I get the perception that these chemicals are forbidden to all,

especially when terms like must avoid and not allowed are used. And

again, for people coming to the group from a standard western diet,

they might feel that these ideas of simmering bones stocks for only an

hour or two are the norm for optimal nutrition. I personally cook

stocks until the bones mash up, as that is more nutrient dense, albeit

maybe it has more toxicity to it as well. That is why I mentioned

that stating that this is a failsafe plan, and not just an NT plan.

(And I follow no strict doctrine, but this is a list where terms like

NT, NN and WAPF are common. Perhaps prefacing the comments would make

it plainer, that is all.)

And what Lynn said. Sometimes people paint themselves into idealistic

diet plans, ie. cooked food is poison. Don't eat " rotten stuff. "

This kind of thinking is unhealthy, especially to people with eating

disorders. There is no paradise on earth, we will also breathe in

toxins as well as eat them. Unnecessarily restricting the diet can

result in less than optimal nutrition, which can cause health problems

in itself.

>

> Good for you. You are one of the members of this genetically diverse

> population who produces more phenol sulphotransferase than your body

> requires. Lucky, lucky you, you must experience vibrant, glowing

> health, have loads of energy, and will obviously live to be at least

> 100 years old. Shame you can't keep your temper under control.

Yes I do enjoy vibrantly excellent health, thank you. And I am not

perfect. I did rant. As for my longevity, I tend not to concern

myself with that. No one knows how they will die until death is upon

them. But we all die. It is one of the afflictions of the

consciousness to cling to life as if it won't someday be taken away.

So I don't know, but I will live my live as fully as possible until I

die. It would be fantastic to have the fitness I see in my 66 yo

grandmaster if/when I am that age.

>

>

> > So there.

>

> What, are you six years old or something?

No, I am in my 40s. But I can move like a six year old and plan to

always enjoy strength, flexibility and stamina. I am definitely

youthful for my age. Exercise is very important to good health and

has always played a huge role in my life.

>

>

> > If you want to write a book about this, go ahead.

>

> I plan to.

I figured as much. Best wishes on that.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

Okay but as someone who has come back to the list recently and

read some recent archives, it sure seems like a basic failsafe

doctrine is being pushed for all things by Emma (much like the

Aajounus diet, or whatever it's called). It is not the answer to

everything and is definitely a far cry from nutrient density afaict.

> In this particular case, a number of the problems I was discussing

> were clear reactions to food chemicals, and it is about as clear as it

> can get that my joint problems were due to oxalates. So it made sense

> to pursue that avenue within this thread.

Is there only the sweet potato reaction that you are going by (forgive

my possible lapse in memory)? Or were there other oxalate foods you

tried and removed?

I had some joint problems and probably Raynaud's Syndrome when I lived

up north, but now I am SCD and pretty low carb for 2 years; like maybe

40-70 g of carbs a day max, with very high intensity exercise 3+ times

a week, and more mild fare another 2x a week. Are you sure it is

really oxalate problems that afflict you and not something else?

So are you still trialing the elimination diet? If so/not, why and

how is it going?

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>

> That makes a more sensible connection, as my urine has been foamy

> since I got sick a few weeks ago. Still, it came on when I was

eating

> a crapload of sweet potatoes, loaded with oxalates, and disappeared

> when I got rid of the sweet potatoes, so I'm pretty sure that

whatever

> the relation to anything else, dietary oxalate intake was the

> proximate cause.

>

According to Chinese medicine, anything that is extremely sweet can

damage the kidneys over time. The kidneys also include the brain,

bone marrow, and all glands as well. Strong kidneys are said to equal

slowed aging. Fast aging is always blamed on the kidneys, and to a

much lesser degree, the liver, in Chinese medicine.

[Guest guest]

> Do you have a suggestion about what else is in sweet potatoes that

> would cause arthritic symptoms that makes as much or more sense than

> oxalates?

No, I was confusing sweet potatoes with the regular white potato,

which has been rumored to intensify arthritis symptoms, along with

other nightshades. Sweet potatoes aren't nightshades, are they? I

guess it's possible it could be something else in them, but you are

probably right about oxalate content.

Deanna