Re: Warfarin and Vitamin K (was Coconut oil, no gallbladder, blood thinners)

[Guest guest]

Lynn,

> I've been working with clinical pharmacists in my warfarin treatment.

> They have told me over and over they don't want me to stop eating

> vitamin k-rich foods, which is the response many folks on warfarin

> have; they just stop eating vegetables, which isn't hard because so few

> people eat vegetables to begin with.

The reason they do this is because vitamin K interferes with the

anti-clotting activity of Warfarin.

>They've asked me to keep eating

> the way I always have--just be consistent.

Right, because they can adjust the dose to make sure they induce the

appropriate degree of vitamin K deficiency. Since you need the least

vitamin K for clotting and far more for all the other important

purposes, whatever amount of warfarin actually works will by

definition be completely poisoning all the other processes.

>f I'm going to eat salad,

> eat salad--but eat it on a regular basis, don't go days without any and

> then boom, big salad.

Salad is not a very good source of K1 because the K1 in salad is very

poorly absorbed -- the best-absorbed source of vitamin K1 is probably

olive oil. But yes, the principle is the same. As long as you eat a

consistent amount of vitamin K, then the dose of Warfarin can be

modified to ensure that you are vitamin K-deficient to the appropriate

degree.

>Same with garlic, onion, all the items that

> interact with warfarin. I need to be consistent about eating them,

> that's all. And whatever that link was that said some people have

> bleeding episodes by eating broccoli soup? baloney.

I didn't say any such thing. If that was the link on the Warfarin

alternatives, which I did not read in full, the author is a little

wacky, though I think the blood-thinning properties of garlic and

other foods is accurate.

>Boccoli is high in

> vitamin k and as such would make you more likely to clot, not bleed.

Broccoli like all other vegetables is a source of very poorly absorbed

vitamin K1. If you smoother it with a couple tablespoons of butter,

you will maximie the absorption to about 10-15%. The vitamin K1 will

make you more likely to clot, but I have no idea what else broccoli

contains that might affect clotting.

> Vitamin k helps with clotting, that's the problem with it.

No. This is a complete misconceptualization. The problem with

vitamin K is only if your specific mechanism of preventing clotting is

inducing a vitamin K deficiency. The amount of vitamin K that can

MAXIMIZE clotting is one TENTH what you need to maximize the

prevention of arterial calcification, increase bone density, and carry

out the less understood functions that vitamin K plays in the nervous

system and digestive system.

[snip]

> I'm not defending warfarin, even the pharmacists tell you it's rough

> stuff. Initially after this episode, however, it's what I need to be

> on. I'm hoping I can get off within the next couple of months.

I hope you can too, because it is absolute poison, and I mean that

very literally. I am not trying to be a fear-monger and I certainly

don't want anyone to try playing with their anti-clotting medication

on their own because I recognize that it is used for a reason and that

playing around with it without a knowledgeable physician's supervision

is very unwise. This does not change the fact that Warfarin is poison

and that it does not take large doses or long periods of time to do a

lot of damage, the extent of which we probably barely understand.

By the way: vitamin K1 from plant foods preferentially supports the

blood-clotting role, whereas vitamin K2 from fatty animal foods and

all foods fermented with lactic acid bacteria preferentially supports

the roles of vitamin K in the soft tissues, bones, and brain. Vitamin

K1 is very poorly absorbed and vitamin K2 is very well-absorbed.

Although it cannot be assumed that vitamin K2 will not interfere with

Warfarin therapy, the distinction is something worth knowing about.

Precisely because the vitamin K1 in plant foods does practically

nothing to support bone calcification, prevent soft tissue

calcification, and is not accumulated in the brain. Nevertheless,

Warfarin indiscriminately destroys the functioning of both forms of

vitamin K.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>> And whatever that link was that said some people have

>> bleeding episodes by eating broccoli soup? baloney.

>

> I didn't say any such thing. If that was the link on the Warfarin

> alternatives, which I did not read in full, the author is a little

> wacky, though I think the blood-thinning properties of garlic and

> other foods is accurate.

No, no, I didn't mean you said that, that the person who wrote that

page, whoever it was, doesn't understand how it works.

> I am not trying to be a fear-monger and I certainly

> don't want anyone to try playing with their anti-clotting medication

> on their own because I recognize that it is used for a reason and that

> playing around with it without a knowledgeable physician's supervision

> is very unwise.

Well you've scared the pants off *me*, and there's not much I can do

about it right now.

Lynn S.

------

Mama, homeschooler, writer, activist, spinner & knitter

http://www.siprelle.com

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[Guest guest]

Lynn,

> Well you've scared the pants off *me*, and there's not much I can do

> about it right now.

There's nothing to be scared of per se, because the danger is not

acute, but is cumulative. I don't know whether it is reversible or

not, but it will stop accumulating when you are off Warfarin.

However, I will email you the study that found aortic valve

calcification to be double in those who underwent coumarin-derivative

treatment prior to surgery than in those who did not, and it would not

be a bad idea to make your doctor aware of it and see if there are

alternatives.

Once you are off the Warfarin, it might be possible that a vitamin K2

supplement could help reverse any damage done; not sure. That you are

on for six months is a good thing, because many people are on much

longer. Don't try taking a vitamin K2 supplement during the Warfarin

treatment, however, as it is a greater concern to make sure there are

no acute complications than to try protecting against long-term

damage.

I don't want to scare anyone, but I'm not going to let people slip by

using a medication, unaware of the fact that it has been shown to

contribute to aortal calcification in humans.

I'm sending it privately because it would violate copyright to upload

it to the list.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com