Re: Montezuma's revenge after water kefir (was: 2 Kefir Questions)

[Guest guest]

> I'd be interested if you could provide an explanation of how

> detoxification is supposed to result in digestive problems. Histamine

> is well demonstrated to do so through inflammation. When chemicals

> are detoxified they are most often conjugated into less, not more,

> toxic forms and excreted in the urine. Things that stimulate bile

> flow might deliver toxins into the intestines, usually conjugated so

> probably wouldn't be very irritating, but even if so wouldn't do so in

> such a short time-course as to notice any irritation resulting from

> the detoxification-stimulating food I don't think. And if the

> digestive problem appears located at the stomach that would pretty

> much rule out detoxification altogether I think.

>

Chris-maybe you can help me figure out what happened here. Several

months ago I started drinking water kefirs. At the time I was

drinking 8-12 oz of cabbage rejuvelac a day and eating a couple of

ounces of various lacto-ferments at each meal. I started drinking 3-4

cups of water kefirs and coconut milk kefir a day, and after about a

week of major gas and stomach rumblings (should have listened to my

body then!) I had 10 days of Montezuma's revenge, horrible diarrhea

and stomach cramps. It was definitely related to the

fermented/probiotic foods and drinks as if I would consume any of them

in the smallest amount for several days after I started recovering I

would immediately get diarrhea again. At the time I thought the water

kefirs were competing with the bad bacteria in my gut and were

changing my gut flora for the better, and I'd simply done too much too

fast, but now after reading your post I'm not so sure. Thoughts?

[Guest guest]

Many people need to start with smaller amounts ( as little as an oz or

two/day) of kefir and then build up. I had rumblings/gas for the first two

weeks but after that, a cup a day gives me no problems.

On 09 Mar 2007 05:56:43 -0800, tarinya2 <tarinya2@...> wrote:

>

>

> I started drinking 3-4

> cups of water kefirs and coconut milk kefir a day, and after about a

> week of major gas and stomach rumblings (should have listened to my

> body then!)

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> >

> > I started drinking 3-4

> > cups of water kefirs and coconut milk kefir a day, and after about a

> > week of major gas and stomach rumblings (should have listened to my

> > body then!)

> >

I understand that, and originally I figured I should have started out

more slowly, but in hindsight, given some of the problems that I'm now

having for NO apparent reason, it seems at least possible to me that

the water kefirs could have had a negative effect on me that I mistook

for die-off or a healing reaction at the time.

[Guest guest]

On 3/9/07, tarinya2 <tarinya2@...> wrote:

> > Many people need to start with smaller amounts ( as little as an oz or

> > two/day) of kefir and then build up. I had rumblings/gas for the

> first two

> > weeks but after that, a cup a day gives me no problems.

> I understand that, and originally I figured I should have started out

> more slowly, but in hindsight, given some of the problems that I'm now

> having for NO apparent reason, it seems at least possible to me that

> the water kefirs could have had a negative effect on me that I mistook

> for die-off or a healing reaction at the time.

If I go from drinking no coffee to drinking a cup of coffee, I get the

jitters. If I start with a small amount of coffee and work up slowly,

I don't get the jitters. I don't conclude from this that the coffee

is detoxifying me; I conclude that caffeine gives me jitters and that

my tolerance to it goes up over time because my expression of the

enzymes that detoxify it increases.

I am not aware of how a die-off reaction could result in diarrhea. It

is possible that there is some mechanism but I'm just not aware of it.

I know for a fact however that histamine is proven to induce diarrhea

in high enough concentrations.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

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[Guest guest]

On 09 Mar 2007 05:56:43 -0800, tarinya2 <tarinya2@...> wrote:

> Chris-maybe you can help me figure out what happened here. Several

> months ago I started drinking water kefirs. At the time I was

> drinking 8-12 oz of cabbage rejuvelac a day and eating a couple of

> ounces of various lacto-ferments at each meal. I started drinking 3-4

> cups of water kefirs and coconut milk kefir a day, and after about a

> week of major gas and stomach rumblings (should have listened to my

> body then!) I had 10 days of Montezuma's revenge, horrible diarrhea

> and stomach cramps. It was definitely related to the

> fermented/probiotic foods and drinks as if I would consume any of them

> in the smallest amount for several days after I started recovering I

> would immediately get diarrhea again. At the time I thought the water

> kefirs were competing with the bad bacteria in my gut and were

> changing my gut flora for the better, and I'd simply done too much too

> fast, but now after reading your post I'm not so sure. Thoughts?

I'm not positive what you mean by " Montezuma's Revenge " but according

to the Wikipedia explanation of it it's usually caused by E. coli or a

few other species. You can get malaise and anorexia from die-off of

gram negative bacteria, but you get diarrhea and vomiting from live

ones. And from histamine. It seems to me if you had enough bad

bacteria to produce a die-off of such magnitude, you'd have been

experiencing those types of symptoms already. However people can

easily get those types of symptoms from scombroid poisoning, which is

caused by an overdose of histamine contained in salmon.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>

> I'm not positive what you mean by " Montezuma's Revenge " but according

> to the Wikipedia explanation of it it's usually caused by E. coli or a

> few other species. You can get malaise and anorexia from die-off of

> gram negative bacteria, but you get diarrhea and vomiting from live

> ones. And from histamine. It seems to me if you had enough bad

> bacteria to produce a die-off of such magnitude, you'd have been

> experiencing those types of symptoms already. However people can

> easily get those types of symptoms from scombroid poisoning, which is

> caused by an overdose of histamine contained in salmon.

I was using " Montezuma's Revenge " as a descriptive term...I didn't

actually have whatever bug causes it. I didn't eat any salmon before

or during that time. So basically you're saying it was mostly likely

a histamine reaction caused by the water kefirs? And would that mean

that water kefirs are inherently not good for me (at least right now),

or is it possible that I simply exceeded my tolerance level for them?

[Guest guest]

On 09 Mar 2007 16:45:55 -0800, tarinya2 <tarinya2@...> wrote:

> I was using " Montezuma's Revenge " as a descriptive term...I didn't

> actually have whatever bug causes it.

I understood that much, but I meant I wasn't sure precisely which

symptoms out of the several listed you were saying you had, or all of

them.

> I didn't eat any salmon before

> or during that time.

Right, I was just using it as a well-known example of histamine

producing those symptoms.

>So basically you're saying it was mostly likely

> a histamine reaction caused by the water kefirs? And would that mean

> that water kefirs are inherently not good for me (at least right now),

> or is it possible that I simply exceeded my tolerance level for them?

It's possible that you simply exceeded your tolerance for them. On

the other hand, they are the last thing I'd be trying to colonize my

gut with if I had that type of reaction to them, as I'd rather not

make such a reaction have any type of permanent residency in my

intestines.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>

> I understood that much, but I meant I wasn't sure precisely which

> symptoms out of the several listed you were saying you had, or all of

> them.

The symptoms I had were frequent diarrhea and awful stomach cramps.

> >So basically you're saying it was mostly likely

> > a histamine reaction caused by the water kefirs? And would that mean

> > that water kefirs are inherently not good for me (at least right now),

> > or is it possible that I simply exceeded my tolerance level for them?

>

> It's possible that you simply exceeded your tolerance for them. On

> the other hand, they are the last thing I'd be trying to colonize my

> gut with if I had that type of reaction to them, as I'd rather not

> make such a reaction have any type of permanent residency in my

> intestines.

>

If it's a tolerance apparently I don't have a very high one as it

doesn't take much of those drinks (or beet kvass, either) to produce

gas. I wonder if I could make yogurt from homemade rice milk, since

pretty much all the other forms of " milk " are out because of my DD's

food intolerances. Probably wouldn't taste very good...

Do you have any idea why raw garlic or oil of oregano would cause gas

and stomach rumblings? Neither of those would cause a histamine

response, would them? I know oil of oregano is high in salicylates

but I think it's something about the OOO itself (or the raw garlic, or

the combination) because I take it with a meal that is quite high in

salicylates already and I don't have the gas/stomach rumblings if I

don't take the raw garlic and OOO.

[Guest guest]

On 09 Mar 2007 18:36:07 -0800, tarinya2 <tarinya2@...> wrote:

> Do you have any idea why raw garlic or oil of oregano would cause gas

> and stomach rumblings? Neither of those would cause a histamine

> response, would them? I know oil of oregano is high in salicylates

> but I think it's something about the OOO itself (or the raw garlic, or

> the combination) because I take it with a meal that is quite high in

> salicylates already and I don't have the gas/stomach rumblings if I

> don't take the raw garlic and OOO.

The active ingredient in oil of oregano is carvacrol, which is a

phenol that is similar to salicylic acid and is a potent COX

inhibitor; so if you're salicylate sensitive, the oil of oregano would

probably be like taking a concentrated pharmacological dose of

salicylate.

It's possible that it could contribute to gut inflammation and thus

gas in that sense. It may have other properties -- I found it to be

useful as an antifungal but I also think it damaged my liver and

worsened my food chemical sensitivities so I would use it only when

definitely needed, for the dose on the label, for a defined period of

time, and only with concomitant liver support herbs.

It's possible that some of the polysacharides in garlic or the sulfur

would feed gas-producing bacteria, but I don't think that's a likely

explanation if you don't notice it with cooked garlic.

It's possible that the combination is killing bacteria or yeasts that

are competing with gas-producing organisms.

It's possible that you are not producing gas in reaction to the meal

but simply releasing it; you can probably tell, though, at least if

you pay attention for it, whether you are developing gas in the

absence of the treatment that isn't moving well.

When I used to take Primal Defense, I would get rumbling from it when

I would first take it, usually accompanying beneficial effects, but I

didn't get more than a little gas, and certainly no diarrhea or pains.

Gas represents fermentation; I don't think (though I'm not 100% sure)

it could represent the dying of bacteria or yeasts. It seems that if

gas is being produced, the garlic/OO combination must be causing

fermentation to occur, either because they are feeding something,

killing something that is competing with gas-producers, or inducing

inflammation that is making your food more available for fermentation.

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com

[Guest guest]

>

> > Do you have any idea why raw garlic or oil of oregano would cause gas

> > and stomach rumblings? Neither of those would cause a histamine

> > response, would them? I know oil of oregano is high in salicylates

> > but I think it's something about the OOO itself (or the raw garlic, or

> > the combination) because I take it with a meal that is quite high in

> > salicylates already and I don't have the gas/stomach rumblings if I

> > don't take the raw garlic and OOO.

>

> The active ingredient in oil of oregano is carvacrol, which is a

> phenol that is similar to salicylic acid and is a potent COX

> inhibitor; so if you're salicylate sensitive, the oil of oregano would

> probably be like taking a concentrated pharmacological dose of

> salicylate.

>

I just can't win no matter what I do!

> It's possible that it could contribute to gut inflammation and thus

> gas in that sense. It may have other properties -- I found it to be

> useful as an antifungal but I also think it damaged my liver and

> worsened my food chemical sensitivities so I would use it only when

> definitely needed, for the dose on the label, for a defined period of

> time, and only with concomitant liver support herbs.

I have been taking about the minimum dose on the label, and also doing

herbal infusions for liver support (I know, I know, more salicylates).

>

> It's possible that some of the polysacharides in garlic or the sulfur

> would feed gas-producing bacteria, but I don't think that's a likely

> explanation if you don't notice it with cooked garlic.

>

I'll have to pay more attention and isolate things I guess...I haven't

been cooking with garlic much so I don't know how/if I react to that.

> It's possible that the combination is killing bacteria or yeasts that

> are competing with gas-producing organisms.

>

> It's possible that you are not producing gas in reaction to the meal

> but simply releasing it; you can probably tell, though, at least if

> you pay attention for it, whether you are developing gas in the

> absence of the treatment that isn't moving well.

>

> When I used to take Primal Defense, I would get rumbling from it when

> I would first take it, usually accompanying beneficial effects, but I

> didn't get more than a little gas, and certainly no diarrhea or pains.

> Gas represents fermentation; I don't think (though I'm not 100% sure)

> it could represent the dying of bacteria or yeasts. It seems that if

> gas is being produced, the garlic/OO combination must be causing

> fermentation to occur, either because they are feeding something,

> killing something that is competing with gas-producers, or inducing

> inflammation that is making your food more available for fermentation.

>

Why does eating have to be so darn complicated?! I always associated

gas with die-off but now that I know I get gas with much of any

fermented food...I think it's a food chemical reaction and not die-off.

Oh, and I wanted to say thanks again for bringing up the

amine/histamine/etc information in the other thread (the biotin and

candida one). With some experimentation I've figured out that most,

if not all, of my brain fog and fatigue was/is due to amine

consumption. Today I ate a lower-than-normal-amine breakfast before

church and could actually concentrate on the sermon without having to

make a monumental effort to do so. I could never figure out why I had

to force myself to pay attention in church (it wasn't due to lack of

interest!), and now I know...amines! I remember feeling foggy quite a

lot on the candida diet but I figured it was because I wasn't eating

enough and was losing too much weight. Guess not. Now I wonder if I

did ever have candida issues at all. I did see a lot of improvement

on the candida diet but maybe it was because it's quite nutrient-dense

and my body was able to rebuild and do some healing. Who knows.

[Guest guest]

On 11 Mar 2007 21:22:36 -0700, tarinya2 <tarinya2@...> wrote:

> I always associated

> gas with die-off but now that I know I get gas with much of any

> fermented food...I think it's a food chemical reaction and not die-off.

Most people associate gas with beans, because the beans contain

polysachardies that fuel bacterial growth. Gas is produced when

bacteria are actively fermenting and growing, not when they're dying.

I don't consider farting to be inherently bad, and if you are

supporting the growth of a good bacterial population sometimes you

might get a little initial gas. But gas can indicate something very

bad going on too, especially if its not moving correctly, in large

amounts, and/or smelly. For example if intestinal inflammation

reduced your food absorption, you'd proabably have a lot more gas

produced from microbial fermentation of the food than you would from

other mechanisms, and you'd probably have more produced in the small

intestine versus the large.

> Oh, and I wanted to say thanks again for bringing up the

> amine/histamine/etc information in the other thread (the biotin and

> candida one). With some experimentation I've figured out that most,

> if not all, of my brain fog and fatigue was/is due to amine

> consumption. Today I ate a lower-than-normal-amine breakfast before

> church and could actually concentrate on the sermon without having to

> make a monumental effort to do so. I could never figure out why I had

> to force myself to pay attention in church (it wasn't due to lack of

> interest!), and now I know...amines! I remember feeling foggy quite a

> lot on the candida diet but I figured it was because I wasn't eating

> enough and was losing too much weight. Guess not. Now I wonder if I

> did ever have candida issues at all. I did see a lot of improvement

> on the candida diet but maybe it was because it's quite nutrient-dense

> and my body was able to rebuild and do some healing. Who knows.

Glad to hear you're making progress!

Chris

--

The Truth About Cholesterol

Find Out What Your Doctor Isn't Telling You:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com