Re: Re: Brad

February 21, 2004

,

I agree with you that it is inappropriate for CI's to be covered when

hearing aids are not. Without sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I

believe a lot of the reason stems from the fact that a surgeon is

involved with a CI. Some insurance companies do cover hearing aids and

several states are working on legislation to increase the coverage. I

predict a great stumbling block in this will be my own profession's

inability to validate results to the extent that insurance companies may

want them.

With CI's physicians have deemed these devices necessary and have

published studies concluding that CI's represent a significant cost

savings to society over being deaf. I have read several of these cost

analyses and one in particularly had some very obvious and glaring flaws

in logic, to the point that I believe their conclusions are invalid, yet

that is one of the documents often quoted to support coverage of CI's.

In my opinion, there simply isn't that kind of endorsement for hearing

aids by the medical community to push reimbursement.

While it's true that Medicaid program are pretty poor at paying for

appropriate technology, Vocational Rehab has, in my experience, had a

better track record. If a person's performance with non-surgical

intervention is close to that of a CI, I would hate to see them forced

into having only one choice because the CI will be covered , but the

non-surgical treatment will not be, but I think that will continue to

happen.

They will likely not suffer any ill effects, but it seems a real shame

that that is the only option for some people. Speaking personally, I

hate the thought of elective surgery so much that I would be very hard

pressed to have an operation just because my insurance would pay for it,

but not the non-surgical alternative. I'd be likely to fight like heck

to expose the flaws in the logic of the policy to exclude the

non-surgical option.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

Brad

>

> I can understand and appreciate your concerns. It is aways good

to be

> comfortable with a criteria for a procedure such as this. I can

share

> with you my own experience and feel very comfortable that this

> compairable with all CI programs.

>

> A vigorous testing takes place before a patient can begin the

journey to

> a CI. We have tried, used, tested, cleaned, molded and listened

over

> and over again. We are required to use the best possible hearing

aids

> for our hearing needs for a period of time. Having a CI is not

> encouraged until every possible alternative method has been tested.

> Even then, the testing goes on and it is rigid and lengthy. We

sit in

> the same booth in which we had hearing testing. The speakers are

not

> moved..they are in the same places as is the seating arrangement.

> There is actually more testing done to validate the need for a CI

than

> is done for hearing aids. Many of the centers that provide CI's

also

> provide hearing aids and/or BAHA devices. The CI is just one of

the

> ways these dedicated professionals use to help their patients with

their

> hearing needs. I do know that given the choice, if a hearing aid

worked

> for me, I would not have opted for a surgical procedure instead. I

would

> imagine there can be variables with hearing aids and CIs as it's

> impossible to know that every hearing aid provider is following

the same

> exact criteria with their clients.

>

> Have you ever asked to participate in a CI evaluation? Since your

> interest is high in this area, this might be something you would

really

> enjoy. If you do decide to do this, please follow it thru to the

> activation. I can't even begin to tell you how relieved I was to

> finally hear after a very extended period of time working with

different

> hearing aids thru two different medical facilities. We gave it

many

> long and difficult months before we began to lean toward a cochlear

> implant. Looking back now, except for the fact that I proved to

myself

> that there was no other choice, I feel that a great deal of time

and a

> lot of money was wasted getting me to the point of being an

approved CI

> candidate and finally a CI user who could hear.

>

> I believe we can rest assured that it is a rare occasion for

someone to

> be implanted who could have done the same or better with a hearing

aid.

> Since insurance companies are very much involved, the controls are

> tightly monitored. Actually, I'm more concerned that people are

being

> mistreated by hearing aid dealers who are just out to make a sale

and

> can get by with it. Unfortunately, too many people are tricked

into big

> dollar purchase for hearing aids that are useless to them. I've

met

> many of them.

>

> Alice

>

April 26, 2004

Jeff that was a beautiful post-- One cant say that I understand what you are

going through unless you HAVE walked in those shoes. one needs to be in those

shoes to appreciate what we have gone through. So Brad please think about before

saying that you do understand hearing loss and what it is like for us . You dont

know because you have never walked in those shoes before.

--

Snoopy

bilateral

RI

April 26, 2004

Jeff,

I don't think either of us is totally clueless, just not in agreement on

a few things.

<<I can say this with almost 100% certainty: you don't have a CLUE what

it's like to be deaf.>>

Audiologically, you are correct.

<<I learned to speechread and sign and did my absolute best to adapt,

but again, it wasn't a place where I belonged.>>

The difference is that when I am with ASL users in an environment where

hearing has no linguistic value, I feel more at home, in fact that I

" belong. " This stumps most of my Deaf friends and they often comment

that I seem to be " wired " for the Deaf world unlike any other hearing

person they know.

<<Should you ever experience severe hearing loss (and I pray you

don't) please review that last statement and report back. I think you'll

find that a lot more is missing that you would ever have imagined.>>

I will certainly do that.

<<Whether it is a prosthetic leg, or a prosthetic ear, time and practice

CAN make things better and being encouraged be peers certainly doesn't

hurt!!>>

We agree here, but there is also the reality of everyone's unknown

maximum potential. I also have an adopted child. Based on his

audiogram, he should be a CI candidate. In fact, many, many, MANY

audiologists, doctors, etc have suggested, told and warned me that I

needed to implant him. Knowing him as well as I do, I know with a great

degree of certainty (not 100% but close) that he is simply not " wired "

for sound. It is not a cochlear thing or a nerve thing, it's a brain

thing. Implanting him and encouraging him to keep trying, etc would be

detrimental to him.

Since there is no way to know what each person's " wiring " really is, all

I'm saying is that the encouragement I see here seems to be less

qualified than I feel comfortable with. But as you say, I'm not the one

with a hearing loss or a CI in my future, so my feelings or opinions on

these are probably not all that important.

<<As far as independent living...we have a adopted daughter who is a

amputee. Looking at it from you way of thinking...I'm guessing we

shouldn't get her a prosthetic leg?>>

You are misunderstanding Independent Living. She and you are actually

doing just that. The alternative would be for her to have leg

transplants or multiple surgeries to try to " re-grow " the leg. She is

applying a reasonable accommodation and moving beyond the disability.

That is exactly what Independent Living is all about.

<< I'm guessing your " in any form " refers to a prosthetic arm? >>

I was talking about an equivalent technology to a CI. I of course would

seek first aid and care to stabilize the situation, but I am not sure

" how far " I would go.

<<You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and so am I: You are

totally clueless.>>

That's why I'm here Jeff. To learn so that I can be a less clueless

audiologist.

<< late deafened (total communication)

Clarion 90K + Auria + Hi-Res 12/03 (...and it works great!)>>

And I'm glad that it does.... For you.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

April 26, 2004

Snoopy,

I didn't say I understand how you feel or what you have gone through, I

said that I have a place in the Deaf (ASL) community.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

Re: Re: Brad

Jeff that was a beautiful post-- One cant say that I understand what you

are going through unless you HAVE walked in those shoes. one needs to

be in those shoes to appreciate what we have gone through. So Brad

please think about before saying that you do understand hearing loss and

what it is like for us . You dont know because you have never walked in

those shoes before.

--

Snoopy

bilateral

RI

April 26, 2004

I am NOT here to argue what you think is best for your child and whatever you

decide to do is best for him. But if I may inquire?... it seems to me after

reading the paragraph below, you are assuming an all or nothing deal with

the implant, i.e. if you implanted your child and encouraged him to utilize it,

you would then have to give up ASL...or something like that. That is how I am

interpreting your last statement cut below where you assume that utilizing

any sound would be detrimental. I am interested in your response. Thanks,

In a message dated 4/26/2004 6:28:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bingrao@... writes:

Knowing him as well as I do, I know with a great

degree of certainty (not 100% but close) that he is simply not " wired "

for sound. It is not a cochlear thing or a nerve thing, it's a brain

thing. Implanting him and encouraging him to keep trying, etc would be

detrimental to him.

April 26, 2004

Brad,

Not to pick on you unmercifully, this will be a brief one...I

think. I know of people, such as Ushers Type 1, who grew up in the

deaf world. They were at home, they were among friedns. But then

their vision began going south. And so did their place in the deaf

world, they no longer fit, and found themselves cut loose, drifting in

nevernever land. How do THEY adapt? They have to learn tactile

siginng, and many deaf do not like to touch others. So where do these

castoffs go? We live in a society that doesnt have time for people

who dont fit in.

*---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

Hard work never hurt anyone, but why take the chance.

& Gimlet (Guide Dawggie)

Portland, Oregon

N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

rlclark77@...

http://home.comcast.net/~rlclark77/

April 26, 2004

Pick away , that's how I learn!

I agree that the Deaf-Blind person often has a problem staying within

the larger Deaf community, but in my experience, this is a somewhat

regional thing. In NY and FL, there was a less acceptance and

accommodation for these folks than I saw in Seattle and what I see now

in Boston.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

Re: Re: Brad

Brad,

Not to pick on you unmercifully, this will be a brief one...I think.

I know of people, such as Ushers Type 1, who grew up in the deaf world.

They were at home, they were among friedns. But then their vision began

going south. And so did their place in the deaf world, they no longer

fit, and found themselves cut loose, drifting in nevernever land. How

do THEY adapt? They have to learn tactile siginng, and many deaf do not

like to touch others. So where do these castoffs go? We live in a

society that doesnt have time for people who dont fit in.

*---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

Hard work never hurt anyone, but why take the chance.

& Gimlet (Guide Dawggie)

Portland, Oregon

N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

rlclark77@...

http://home.comcast.net/~rlclark77/

April 26, 2004

Mardie,

I am sorry if I came across as telling anyone how they should feel. I

tried very hard to make it clear that my statements were from my own

experiences only. That is all any of us can offer, but my concern was

and is, that in many discussions regarding hearing loss (CI's, HA's,

surgeries) that the " from my personal experience " gets lost and the fact

that all the data is very difficult to find (in order to make a truly

informed choice) gets swept under the carpet.

I don't doubt your observations at all and I agree that the signing Deaf

community has gotten a lot of misinformation about CI's. In 2000, I was

on a panel with Artinian (Sound and Fury) regarding CI's. When he

saw my signing " accent " he said, " Oh you're really fluent, you must be

on 'our' side on this. " I told him that 5 or 10 years prior to that, it

was easy and somewhat reasonable to be polar on the issue of CI's, but

that as of 2000, the outcomes had improved to the point that I was not

able to support an " either-or " approach. It's simply too variable and

individual.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

Re: Brad

I have not been following this list in the past two weeks or so due to

being extremely busy. However, I picked it up today and caught the

thread of Brad's questions about--in a nutshell--ethical issues in

cochlear implantation. He made a rather sweeping remark that most deaf

people are fine the way they are and feel they don't need to hear. In

line with some of the posts I have seen tonight on the list, that has

NOT been my observation here in the DC area. I have noticed many members

of the deaf community here getting CIs simply because they wanted to be

able to HEAR, to be able to talk to their neighbors, children,

grandchildren, listen to music, feel safer. They have many reasons for

wanting a CI, even if often NOT for understanding spoken English (which

was MY main reason for getting one). Deaf people don't like not being

able to hear, but at the same time they don't like to admit that. They

try to put a positive spin on what is in actuality a major, major

handicap, while trading stories about job, family, and other problems

that are directly related to their lack of hearing. Also, I have noticed

that among members of the deaf world who do not have an implant, there

are many misunderstandings of what a CI does and can do, and how it

works.

I am always concerned when a HEARING person tries to tell us, who have

been deaf all or most of our lives what to think and how we should feel

about various issues that affect us. I am far from alone in this

sentiment. It reminds me of all the horror stories I have heard from

deaf people about the lies interpreters have told them about CIs and

other matters. A couple years ago an interpreter (who was not

interpreting but sitting in the audience near me) queried me about my CI

and expressed astonishment about how well I was doing with it.

She alleged that they didn't work very well for most people.

Like any other technology, there are always debates swirling around

cochlear implants, unforeseen issues that surface, rough spots to be

ironed out.

Cochlear implant technology has improved by leaps and bounds, and no

group has impressed me more than children who were implanted very early

in life and learned to speak and listen through the Auditory Verbal

approach. These kids have the potential to be more fully part of society

than deaf people in my generation had.

As for the claim that implant teams urge CIs on people who can benefit

adequately from hearing aids, those professionals would be in the

minority. The vast majority of CI team members are not guilty of this.

In fact, I am seeing too often people who genuinely can no longer

discriminate speech with hearing aids being forced to wait for an

available appointment because CI centers are so busy, short-staffed, and

under-funded.

Mardie Younglof

Clarion 1.2 and Platinum

April 26, 2004

Well said .

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

Re: Brad

OK gang..

Before we get too rough on Brad here, please remember that he did say

he's NOT against cochlear implants..rather the opposite, and none of us

can really know how we will feel being deaf until we get there.. Just as

being implanted is a very individual choice.. please remember that not

being implanted is just as individual a choice and if a person feels

comfortable being deaf then so be it..It is their choice..

I know that I'm not comfortable in the deaf world and this is probably

due to the fact that I have had normal hearing in the past, I don't know

asl and was always a very poor lip reader.. add to that my family had to

write notes to my mother for 20 years until she was implanted and it

makes for tough time coping in the hearing world..

Brad knows of many deaf who are happy and comfortable with with being

so, but by the same token, I can probably match or exceed the number of

people I know who are deaf or hearing impaired and NOT comfortable or

happy..Success in the deaf and hearing world is probably as individual

as each persons experience with cochlear implants is.

Granted, Brad can't possibly know what any of us feels like being deaf

any more than we could know how he'd feel if he lost his hearing

(definitely not anything I'd want to happen though)and I doubt Brad

himself can say just how he'd feel if anything were to happen to his

hearing until it actually happened.

Just my two cents worth here.. but let's remember.. we are a support

forum, to help people understand, but not to make the choice for them.

Hugs,

Silly MI

April 26, 2004

Brad,

If you want to collect meaningful (to you as a professional) data,

methinks you are going to have to go it the hard

way....professionally. We are not professionals and even if we do

have an interest or even a stake in supporting such data, we cannot.

We are too close to the issue, that is, we got CI's. So we are

biased, skewed, however it may be put. So get the meaningful (to you

as a professional) data from the CI companies, clinics, audies,

surgeons. And get the non-professional side of it from us. LOL Wow.

Did I really say that? It does make sense.

(I cannot wait for winter, I hate the heat. I think I see gray matter

in my 3G. Sigh.)

*---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

Borrow money from pessimists -- they don't expect it back.

--

& Gimlet (Guide Dawggie)

Portland, Oregon

N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

rlclark77@...

http://home.comcast.net/~rlclark77/

April 26, 2004

,

Without getting into too much detail, before adoption, my son wore

hearing aids and FM and received AVT at school. After school he was

horribly abused in his foster homes. In his mind, those events are

linked. When we adopted him, I upgraded his hearing aids and witnessed

several times that when he did anything that resembled his previous

therapy like playing computer games with sounds or watching certain

cartoons, he would begin to repeat AVT drills and then would flash back

to the abuse to the point that he would globally regress to age 4 or 5

including language, walking, fine motor and eating. This would last for

days to weeks. During this time he " lost " 6 sets of hearing aids, the

last one the same day as one of these flashbacks. Recently, he admitted

to me that he has all these " lost " hearing aids and is keeping them

until " it is safe " to wear them.

If he had a CI, the required therapy would push him into this again.

Hearing may be a wonderful thing for some, but fro him, it is not worth

that risk.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

Re: Re: Brad

I am NOT here to argue what you think is best for your child and

whatever you decide to do is best for him. But if I may inquire?... it

seems to me after reading the paragraph below, you are assuming an all

or nothing deal with the implant, i.e. if you implanted your child and

encouraged him to utilize it, you would then have to give up ASL...or

something like that. That is how I am interpreting your last statement

cut below where you assume that utilizing any sound would be

detrimental. I am interested in your response. Thanks,

In a message dated 4/26/2004 6:28:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bingrao@... writes:

Knowing him as well as I do, I know with a great degree of certainty

(not 100% but close) that he is simply not " wired "

for sound. It is not a cochlear thing or a nerve thing, it's a brain

thing. Implanting him and encouraging him to keep trying, etc would be

detrimental to him.

April 26, 2004

,

That's exactly what I'm trying to do. Go to the source first, so that I

have something against which I can measure the " company line " or the

" ivory tower " academic rhetoric.

Hopefully, after collecting all the different skews, the " whole story "

may begin to emerge.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

Re: Re: Brad

Brad,

If you want to collect meaningful (to you as a professional) data,

methinks you are going to have to go it the hard way....professionally.

We are not professionals and even if we do have an interest or even a

stake in supporting such data, we cannot.

We are too close to the issue, that is, we got CI's. So we are biased,

skewed, however it may be put. So get the meaningful (to you as a

professional) data from the CI companies, clinics, audies, surgeons.

And get the non-professional side of it from us. LOL Wow.

Did I really say that? It does make sense.

(I cannot wait for winter, I hate the heat. I think I see gray matter

in my 3G. Sigh.)

*---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

Borrow money from pessimists -- they don't expect it back.

--

& Gimlet (Guide Dawggie)

Portland, Oregon

N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

rlclark77@...

http://home.comcast.net/~rlclark77/

April 26, 2004

Have you tested his audiogram *with* the hearing aids on? Does the heairng

aid help him?

Regards/

Jerome

Re: Re: Brad

I am NOT here to argue what you think is best for your child and whatever

you decide to do is best for him. But if I may inquire?... it seems to me

after reading the paragraph below, you are assuming an all or nothing deal

with the implant, i.e. if you implanted your child and encouraged him to

utilize it, you would then have to give up ASL...or something like that.

That is how I am interpreting your last statement cut below where you assume

that utilizing any sound would be detrimental. I am interested in your

response. Thanks,

In a message dated 4/26/2004 6:28:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bingrao@... writes:

Knowing him as well as I do, I know with a great degree of certainty (not

100% but close) that he is simply not " wired "

for sound. It is not a cochlear thing or a nerve thing, it's a brain thing.

Implanting him and encouraging him to keep trying, etc would be detrimental

to him.

April 26, 2004

<<Have you tested his audiogram *with* the hearing aids on? Does the

heairng aid help him?>>

Jerome,

Yes, I have tested him several times. With his last set of hearing aids

he has audibility to 20 dB, but his discrimination is less than 10%. He

has a very interesting response to hearing. He enjoys hearing the

sounds, but the whole experience brings back the unpleasant memories.

We have found ways around that and he can hear some sounds like music

(especially my saxophone) unaided in certain positions.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

June 2, 2004

Alice,

<<I think you are looking at this from the viewpoint of a person who

does not have a CI and is not in favor of one.>>

Of course . That's the only viewpoint I have. But to clarify your

statement. I am only not in favor one for my son. I have no problem at

all with anybody else having them.

<< When asked for opinions from members of this list, you are going to

see that the messages will most likely project encouragement and support

for the CI but I've seen some very honest posts here from individuals

who have had the CI and have shared that it's " not perfect " or otherwise

less than raving opinions. The variety is good. You are indicating

otherwise and actually suggesting that listmembers not share how they

feel>>

Sorry, I was not clear. Yes, of course, there has been both sides.

<< so you are trying to squelch the very right for all to express our

feelings and have discussions like this. >> I'm not sure I could do that

even if I wanted to, which I don't. My whole post was about everyone

having the right to express whatever they want. I was reacting to Dixie

stating that Deaf people shouldn't have an opinion on CI's since they

are against them.

<<Regarding planning an Oprah show to encourage deaf people to learn ASL

or to NOT get an implant, this would not be the right group to go about

this task, but perhaps you would like to see a show like this on Oprah

and you have every right to start a campaign to do such a show.>>

I suppose this is the summation of my point. What works for my kid is

right for me and some others who also find it helpful. There is no

desire to widely promote it on Oprah or in the popular press because we

all realize that raising a Deaf kid and teaching them language is a very

personal and individual thing. We (the ASL / BiBi group) certainly

believe strongly in our views and will talk about it if asked, but going

on Oprah to " spread the word " is not really appropriate.

What I see with CI's is a nearly evangelical spirit to get as many

people as possible implanted. This is not coming from this list per se,

but from the medical and audiologic community.

<<You quoted from Grahaem (CI inventor) in an article saying

something to the effect of not having any idea why anyone would live the

isolated world of being deaf when they can just get a CI. This is his

opinion and like yours, Dixie's, 's, 's, 's, 's,

's and all the rest of our members, we respect that opinion.>>

True, it is his opinion, but when the popular press picks it up and runs

with it without providing a contrasting opinion, it becomes a commercial

for that opinion.

As usual, I think we are on the same road (individual choice, expression

of opinions, etc), just that we're riding on different sides of the same

rolling coin.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

June 2, 2004

Jeff,

I totally agree that deaf children should learn ASL even if they have CI's. I

wish I could learn it but maybe... as our entire family has hired a tutor who is

going to come to us and teach us all to sign.

We have a condition that may render more family members with deafness and

multiple members of the family risk their lives to have surgery so learning ASL

is important to us all.

I find it amazing when I see three of my younger grandchildren who are pretty

fluent in ASL. One of my grandaughters has become very good friends with a deaf

girl who does not speak. (you know her Mom) has learned to sign quite

well because of her friend. Everytime the family has a birthday party, she

signs to me the " Happy Birthday " song because she knows it so well. I'm very

proud of these three girls who will very likely embarass me when we start

working with the tutor. <smile>

Alice

June 2, 2004

OK Brad.. I think we are definately in sinc.

Alice

June 2, 2004

Hi Brad,

I don't know why you're not in favor of CI. But you are very favor of

hearing aids... Yourself being in favor of hearing aids, should I say you're

pro-hearing or anti-hearing?

Do you have negative experience with CI that makes you bias against it?

By the way, there's no evangelism about having more and more people getting

implanted, but rather, we want to improve the quality of life of people. We

only live 1 life and we want to get as much as possible out of it.

Regards/

Jerome

RE: RE: Brad

Alice,

<<I think you are looking at this from the viewpoint of a person who does

not have a CI and is not in favor of one.>>

Of course . That's the only viewpoint I have. But to clarify your

statement. I am only not in favor one for my son. I have no problem at all

with anybody else having them.

<< When asked for opinions from members of this list, you are going to see

that the messages will most likely project encouragement and support for the

CI but I've seen some very honest posts here from individuals who have had

the CI and have shared that it's " not perfect " or otherwise less than raving

opinions. The variety is good. You are indicating otherwise and actually

suggesting that listmembers not share how they

feel>>

Sorry, I was not clear. Yes, of course, there has been both sides.

<< so you are trying to squelch the very right for all to express our

feelings and have discussions like this. >> I'm not sure I could do that

even if I wanted to, which I don't. My whole post was about everyone having

the right to express whatever they want. I was reacting to Dixie stating

that Deaf people shouldn't have an opinion on CI's since they are against

them.

<<Regarding planning an Oprah show to encourage deaf people to learn ASL or

to NOT get an implant, this would not be the right group to go about this

task, but perhaps you would like to see a show like this on Oprah and you

have every right to start a campaign to do such a show.>>

I suppose this is the summation of my point. What works for my kid is right

for me and some others who also find it helpful. There is no desire to

widely promote it on Oprah or in the popular press because we all realize

that raising a Deaf kid and teaching them language is a very personal and

individual thing. We (the ASL / BiBi group) certainly believe strongly in

our views and will talk about it if asked, but going on Oprah to " spread the

word " is not really appropriate.

What I see with CI's is a nearly evangelical spirit to get as many people as

possible implanted. This is not coming from this list per se, but from the

medical and audiologic community.

<<You quoted from Grahaem (CI inventor) in an article saying something

to the effect of not having any idea why anyone would live the isolated

world of being deaf when they can just get a CI. This is his opinion and

like yours, Dixie's, 's, 's, 's, 's, 's and

all the rest of our members, we respect that opinion.>>

True, it is his opinion, but when the popular press picks it up and runs

with it without providing a contrasting opinion, it becomes a commercial for

that opinion.

As usual, I think we are on the same road (individual choice, expression of

opinions, etc), just that we're riding on different sides of the same

rolling coin.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

June 2, 2004

Opinion:

1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a

particular matter b : APPROVAL, ESTEEM

2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive

knowledge b : a generally held view

3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b : the

formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal

reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

Brad, who cares what the opinions are? Who even cares if they

miss the mark? The very reason we have the right to express ourselves

is the basis for learning.

Know anything about thge bonsai? a potted plant (as a tree)

dwarfed and trained to an artistic shape by special methods of

culture; also : the art of growing such a plant

Just as the bonsai is shaped by touch, and each one is as

individual as snowflakes, so too is our minds, shaped by what we take

in, our thinking is just as flexible as the bonsai.

There is not one of us here who has experienced the same as any

one else. 600 plus members. You think some if not many have gone

thru the same things? Maybe. You think they'd have the same

outlooks? Not likely.

From MY position, I think the Deaf are silly for being so

insensitive. But I dont walk in their shoes. From MY position, I

think every deaf person should look into a CI. But I dont walk in

their shoes.

Back to the case in MI. I think you would be floored if you kniew

how many of US were aghast at what the state was attempting to do.

No, I used the right word. Aghast. WE believe in choice. WE are

proud to have a CI. WE are excited and want to share.

Please, lets not become the Opinion Police. You wont get any

awards for your actions. The first time I watched SOund and Fury, I

thought, geez what an idiot to deprive his daughter of hearing. The

nest time I watched, I thought, geez, dont get excited, no one is

going to ramrod the CI down your throat. I respect your right to make

the choice whichever way it goes.

You have your reasons for not implanting your kid. We have the

right to choose the tools we use. You want to use a bread knife to

cut down that oak tree, go for it. I'd prefer to use a chainsaw.

I cannot walk in your shoes. You cannot walk in mine either.

*---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

Life isn't like a box of chocolates...it's more like a jar of

jalapenos.

& Gimlet (Guide Dawggie)

Portland, Oregon

N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

rlclark77@...

http://home.comcast.net/~rlclark77/

June 2, 2004

Brad said, " What I see with CI's is a nearly evangelical spirit to

get as many

people as possible implanted. This is not coming from this list per

se, but from the medical and audiologic community. "

Could it be because the CI is indeed a medical miracle that is

very successful and pretty much available to those who qualify?

Pacemakers dont generate such excitement. Wheelchairs dont either.

While you say this " ...nearly evangelical spirit... " " ...is not coming

from this list per se... " it may well be and that is fine. Of all the

senses, hearing is one that can indeed be restored. When such

advances become available for the eyes, you can bet there would be the

same excitement, tho probably not the negativity because the blind do

not have a culture as the deaf do.

*---* *---* *---* *---* *---*

Everyone seems normal until you get to know them.

& Gimlet (Guide Dawggie)

Portland, Oregon

N24C 3G 8/2000 Hookup

rlclark77@...

http://home.comcast.net/~rlclark77/

June 2, 2004

Jeff,

I agree that there is too much polarity in deaf education. That kind of

cookie cutter approach doesn't work for any student. During any given

semester I end up using 3 or 4 different media and approaches to explain

various concepts to my undergraduate and graduate students. No two

brains are alike and therefore no educational system (or audiologic

approach) should be one size fits all (or most).

I am impressed with this list in that the above message is clearly

repeated often. I just wish that attitude would make it into the

audiology training programs. I require my students to join listservs

related to the courses I teach and if I teach amplification in the

spring, this will certainly be in the list.

____________________________________________

Best Regards,

Brad Ingrao, M.S.Ed. CCC-A, FAAA

Editor

EDEN - The Electronic Deaf Education Network

www.bradingrao.com

e-mail: info@...

Re: Brad

> My real point was that while many Deaf people are against the CI

for

> themselves, I rarely hear about anyone planning an Oprah show to

> encourage deaf people to learn ASL or to NOT get an implant.

Hi,

I think it's a shame that more people aren't encouraged to learn ASL. I

learned it for myself and it's been a lifesaver more than once. As well

as the CI works for me I still use sign and encourage others to learn it

and use it as well. Implant or not, I'd want a deaf child to learn how

to sign. It's a great tool to have at your disposal. Unfortunately,

educational programs for deaf children seem to be either 100% oral or

100% ASL even if they claim to be TC.

Many thanks for honoring the memory of our fallen countrymen on

Memorial day! :-)

- Jeff

late deafened; happily cybernetic for 5 months!

June 2, 2004

Jerome,

I think I've answered this, but I'm not anti-anything except

audiologists doing poor audiology. This means incomplete evaluations,

prescribing based on advertising hype over demonstrable results, not

being informed about a full spectrum of options for d/Deaf and Hard of

Hearing people including CI's, Hearing Aids, assistive technology,

earmolds, e-mail, listservs, etc.

My bias is not based on a negative CI experience, but rather 20 years of

very positive ASL experience.

The CI is an evolving animal. Outcomes are getting better and seem to

be more predictable. As such, I'm doing what I believe to the ethical

thing and learning more. Both from end users like those on this and

other lists and from th academic side (I'll be taking a CI course for my

doctorate in a few months) and also by talking with audiologists who

work on all sides of the issue.

You'd probably be very surprised at how many people I've referred for CI

evaluations.