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" This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

equity... "

Thanks for the insight. Macro addreses the global, international, and

perhaps national levels -- where the interests of the nation and society as

a whole are at stake. The nation does not want docs writing prescriptions

and then selling the drugs, so docs may not own drugstores. The same is the

case with them controlling demand for other goods and services over which

they also control supply. It doesn't respond to market forces, and the

beneficiary patient doesn't either, since they are in effect spending

**someone else's money**. Where markets cannot control, strong central

forces must, or else chaos ensues.

The **someone else** would be... we the people, their fellow citizens who.

with our tax money are paying today for services received by the Medicare

population in hopes that years or decades in the future someone else will be

paying for the goods and services which we will receive. Or, in the

non-Medicare arena, we the people are the premium payors for insurance

benefits demanded (economic term!) and supplied (another!) to others in our

insurance plan.

At the industry, region, State, and local level -- right down to the small

practice, it's a microeconomic issue. The doc who used you for years can

suddenly become fickle and make alliances (shades of Reality TV!) with the

newer, more " kiss-up " therapist in town who brings them fancy cake every

other Friday. This moves economic power to the doc. Our national policy

makers don't like anticompetitive practices, such as a doc may exert over

those to whom they refer. (Consider the Bureau of Competition at the

Federal Trade Commission).

I agree with . It's no longer about neurons, myofibrils, and correct

hand positioning. It's about economics and about whether the profession is

willing to return to the master-slave relationships of previous decades, or

is determined to finally cast off the shackles of physician dominance.

Actually, I think that the profession has actually taken a stance on these

issues... Has everyone read them?

As a former teacher of graduate economics, I'm preparing a set of CEU

presentations for our own PT/OT/ SLP staff on the Economics of Rehab

Practice, for the upcoming fall. What are other rehab managers doing to

innoculate their staffs?

Dick Hillyer, PT, MBA, MSM

System Director

Rehabilitation Sevices

Lee Memorial Health system

Ft. Myers, FL

Physician Ownership New Perspective

Group

I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice

scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment

you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's

and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their

profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's

and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing

field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This

is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the

in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or

independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer

the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well

as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have.

It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we

should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good

business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order

to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

Thanks for your time :-)

Witt, PT

Delray Beach, FL

Private Practice

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Dick

Thank you for the schooling on economics. Also, thank you for understanding

the intent of my message and not running me over because of my incorrect use

of the term macro vs. micro. Have a great weekend :)

Witt, PT

Delray Beach, FL

Private Practice

Physician Ownership New Perspective

Group

I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice

scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment

you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's

and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their

profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's

and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing

field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This

is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the

in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or

independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer

the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well

as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have.

It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we

should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good

business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order

to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

Thanks for your time :-)

Witt, PT

Delray Beach, FL

Private Practice

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Dick

Thank you for the schooling on economics. Also, thank you for understanding

the intent of my message and not running me over because of my incorrect use

of the term macro vs. micro. Have a great weekend :)

Witt, PT

Delray Beach, FL

Private Practice

Physician Ownership New Perspective

Group

I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice

scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment

you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's

and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their

profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's

and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing

field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This

is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the

in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or

independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer

the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well

as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have.

It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we

should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good

business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order

to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

Thanks for your time :-)

Witt, PT

Delray Beach, FL

Private Practice

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Dick

Thank you for the schooling on economics. Also, thank you for understanding

the intent of my message and not running me over because of my incorrect use

of the term macro vs. micro. Have a great weekend :)

Witt, PT

Delray Beach, FL

Private Practice

Physician Ownership New Perspective

Group

I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice

scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment

you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's

and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their

profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's

and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing

field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This

is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the

in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or

independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer

the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well

as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have.

It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we

should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good

business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order

to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

Thanks for your time :-)

Witt, PT

Delray Beach, FL

Private Practice

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" I think that the profession has actually taken a stance on these

issues " .

Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and

the same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never

will speak for the profession as a whole.

I have read their stance on this issue. I am a member in good

standing of the APTA, I appreciate what they do, but they don't speak

for the profession as a whole on this or any other issues, just as the

AMA does not speak for the profession of practicing medicine as a

whole.

It is funny to me that the APTA is so appalled by POPTS and yet still

admits members who work for POPTS, knowing full well those dues are

likely being paid by the MD/owners.

> -

>

> " This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

> equity... "

>

> Thanks for the insight. Macro addreses the global, international, and

> perhaps national levels -- where the interests of the nation and society as

> a whole are at stake. The nation does not want docs writing prescriptions

> and then selling the drugs, so docs may not own drugstores. The same is the

> case with them controlling demand for other goods and services over which

> they also control supply. It doesn't respond to market forces, and the

> beneficiary patient doesn't either, since they are in effect spending

> **someone else's money**. Where markets cannot control, strong central

> forces must, or else chaos ensues.

>

> The **someone else** would be... we the people, their fellow citizens who.

> with our tax money are paying today for services received by the Medicare

> population in hopes that years or decades in the future someone else will be

> paying for the goods and services which we will receive. Or, in the

> non-Medicare arena, we the people are the premium payors for insurance

> benefits demanded (economic term!) and supplied (another!) to others in our

> insurance plan.

>

> At the industry, region, State, and local level -- right down to the small

> practice, it's a microeconomic issue. The doc who used you for years can

> suddenly become fickle and make alliances (shades of Reality TV!) with the

> newer, more " kiss-up " therapist in town who brings them fancy cake every

> other Friday. This moves economic power to the doc. Our national policy

> makers don't like anticompetitive practices, such as a doc may exert over

> those to whom they refer. (Consider the Bureau of Competition at the

> Federal Trade Commission).

>

> I agree with . It's no longer about neurons, myofibrils, and correct

> hand positioning. It's about economics and about whether the profession is

> willing to return to the master-slave relationships of previous decades, or

> is determined to finally cast off the shackles of physician dominance.

>

> Actually, I think that the profession has actually taken a stance on these

> issues... Has everyone read them?

>

> As a former teacher of graduate economics, I'm preparing a set of CEU

> presentations for our own PT/OT/ SLP staff on the Economics of Rehab

> Practice, for the upcoming fall. What are other rehab managers doing to

> innoculate their staffs?

>

>

> Dick Hillyer, PT, MBA, MSM

> System Director

> Rehabilitation Sevices

> Lee Memorial Health system

> Ft. Myers, FL

>

>

> Physician Ownership New Perspective

>

> Group

>

> I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice

> scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

> more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment

> you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's

> and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their

> profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's

> and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

>

> To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing

> field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This

> is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

> not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the

> in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

> bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

>

> This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

> equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

>

> 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or

> independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer

> the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well

> as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have.

> It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

>

> How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

> to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

> family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

> street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

> other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

> If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we

> should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

> interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

> dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good

> business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

> thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

> develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order

> to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

>

> Thanks for your time :-)

>

> Witt, PT

>

> Delray Beach, FL

>

> Private Practice

>

>

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-

" Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the

same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never

will speak for the profession as a whole. "

Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice...

If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my

practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to

Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of

Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other

organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of

the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory

bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There

is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in

which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized.

Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if

they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor.

So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its

components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is

within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility,

and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation

(an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else.

I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants

who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and

the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value

liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join.

Dick Hillyer

Cape Coral,FL

Physician Ownership New Perspective

>

> Group

>

> I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

practice

> scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

> more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

environment

> you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

MD's

> and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

their

> profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

MD's

> and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

>

> To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

playing

> field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

This

> is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

> not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

the

> in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

> bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

>

> This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

> equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

>

> 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

or

> independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

offer

> the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

well

> as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

have.

> It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

>

> How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

> to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

> family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

> street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

> other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

> If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think

we

> should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

> interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

> dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

good

> business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

> thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

> develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

order

> to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

>

> Thanks for your time :-)

>

> Witt, PT

>

> Delray Beach, FL

>

> Private Practice

>

>

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Share on other sites

Guest guest

-

" Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the

same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never

will speak for the profession as a whole. "

Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice...

If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my

practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to

Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of

Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other

organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of

the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory

bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There

is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in

which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized.

Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if

they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor.

So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its

components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is

within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility,

and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation

(an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else.

I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants

who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and

the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value

liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join.

Dick Hillyer

Cape Coral,FL

Physician Ownership New Perspective

>

> Group

>

> I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

practice

> scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

> more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

environment

> you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

MD's

> and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

their

> profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

MD's

> and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

>

> To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

playing

> field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

This

> is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

> not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

the

> in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

> bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

>

> This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

> equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

>

> 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

or

> independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

offer

> the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

well

> as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

have.

> It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

>

> How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

> to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

> family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

> street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

> other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

> If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think

we

> should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

> interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

> dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

good

> business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

> thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

> develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

order

> to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

>

> Thanks for your time :-)

>

> Witt, PT

>

> Delray Beach, FL

>

> Private Practice

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

-

" Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the

same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never

will speak for the profession as a whole. "

Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice...

If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my

practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to

Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of

Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other

organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of

the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory

bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There

is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in

which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized.

Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if

they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor.

So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its

components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is

within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility,

and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation

(an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else.

I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants

who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and

the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value

liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join.

Dick Hillyer

Cape Coral,FL

Physician Ownership New Perspective

>

> Group

>

> I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

practice

> scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

> more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

environment

> you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

MD's

> and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

their

> profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

MD's

> and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

>

> To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

playing

> field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

This

> is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

> not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

the

> in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

> bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

>

> This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

> equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

>

> 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

or

> independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

offer

> the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

well

> as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

have.

> It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

>

> How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

> to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

> family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

> street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

> other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

> If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think

we

> should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

> interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

> dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

good

> business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

> thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

> develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

order

> to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

>

> Thanks for your time :-)

>

> Witt, PT

>

> Delray Beach, FL

>

> Private Practice

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dick,

I agree that the APTA is the largest voice speaking out and lobbying

for the profession. But my point was they do not/cannot speak for the

profession itself considering the huge diversity of opinion you

accurately noted. I just see a big difference in the two. APTA

supports direct access, but there are many PTs, including members, who

don't. Same for the DPT, same for POPTS.

My point is that APTA's stance on these or any other issues cannot

accurately be referred to as saying " the profession has spoken " . The

truth is that the profession's largest lobbying group has spoken, and

there is a big difference in the two.

Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate your opinion.

> -

>

> " Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the

> same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never

> will speak for the profession as a whole. "

>

> Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice...

>

> If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my

> practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to

> Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of

> Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other

> organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of

> the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory

> bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There

> is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in

> which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized.

>

> Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if

> they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor.

>

> So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its

> components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is

> within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility,

> and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation

> (an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else.

>

> I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants

> who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and

> the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value

> liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join.

>

>

> Dick Hillyer

> Cape Coral,FL

>

>

> Physician Ownership New Perspective

> >

> > Group

> >

> > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> practice

> > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

> > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> environment

> > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> MD's

> > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> their

> > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> MD's

> > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> >

> > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> playing

> > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> This

> > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

> > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> the

> > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

> > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> >

> > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

> > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> >

> > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> or

> > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> offer

> > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> well

> > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> have.

> > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> >

> > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

> > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

> > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

> > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

> > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

> > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think

> we

> > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

> > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

> > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> good

> > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

> > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

> > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> order

> > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> >

> > Thanks for your time :-)

> >

> > Witt, PT

> >

> > Delray Beach, FL

> >

> > Private Practice

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dick,

I agree that the APTA is the largest voice speaking out and lobbying

for the profession. But my point was they do not/cannot speak for the

profession itself considering the huge diversity of opinion you

accurately noted. I just see a big difference in the two. APTA

supports direct access, but there are many PTs, including members, who

don't. Same for the DPT, same for POPTS.

My point is that APTA's stance on these or any other issues cannot

accurately be referred to as saying " the profession has spoken " . The

truth is that the profession's largest lobbying group has spoken, and

there is a big difference in the two.

Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate your opinion.

> -

>

> " Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the

> same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never

> will speak for the profession as a whole. "

>

> Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice...

>

> If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my

> practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to

> Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of

> Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other

> organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of

> the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory

> bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There

> is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in

> which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized.

>

> Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if

> they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor.

>

> So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its

> components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is

> within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility,

> and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation

> (an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else.

>

> I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants

> who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and

> the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value

> liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join.

>

>

> Dick Hillyer

> Cape Coral,FL

>

>

> Physician Ownership New Perspective

> >

> > Group

> >

> > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> practice

> > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

> > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> environment

> > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> MD's

> > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> their

> > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> MD's

> > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> >

> > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> playing

> > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> This

> > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

> > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> the

> > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

> > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> >

> > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

> > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> >

> > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> or

> > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> offer

> > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> well

> > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> have.

> > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> >

> > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

> > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

> > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

> > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

> > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

> > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think

> we

> > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

> > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

> > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> good

> > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

> > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

> > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> order

> > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> >

> > Thanks for your time :-)

> >

> > Witt, PT

> >

> > Delray Beach, FL

> >

> > Private Practice

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dick,

I agree that the APTA is the largest voice speaking out and lobbying

for the profession. But my point was they do not/cannot speak for the

profession itself considering the huge diversity of opinion you

accurately noted. I just see a big difference in the two. APTA

supports direct access, but there are many PTs, including members, who

don't. Same for the DPT, same for POPTS.

My point is that APTA's stance on these or any other issues cannot

accurately be referred to as saying " the profession has spoken " . The

truth is that the profession's largest lobbying group has spoken, and

there is a big difference in the two.

Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate your opinion.

> -

>

> " Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the

> same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never

> will speak for the profession as a whole. "

>

> Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice...

>

> If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my

> practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to

> Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of

> Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other

> organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of

> the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory

> bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There

> is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in

> which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized.

>

> Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if

> they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor.

>

> So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its

> components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is

> within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility,

> and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation

> (an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else.

>

> I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants

> who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and

> the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value

> liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join.

>

>

> Dick Hillyer

> Cape Coral,FL

>

>

> Physician Ownership New Perspective

> >

> > Group

> >

> > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> practice

> > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing

> > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> environment

> > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> MD's

> > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> their

> > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> MD's

> > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> >

> > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> playing

> > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> This

> > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is

> > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> the

> > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or

> > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> >

> > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer

> > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> >

> > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> or

> > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> offer

> > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> well

> > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> have.

> > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> >

> > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's

> > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a

> > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the

> > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the

> > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's?

> > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think

> we

> > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same

> > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular

> > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> good

> > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for

> > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to

> > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> order

> > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> >

> > Thanks for your time :-)

> >

> > Witt, PT

> >

> > Delray Beach, FL

> >

> > Private Practice

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

,

While I respect what you say below, I agree with Dick that while there is

great diversity of opinion within the APTA, it and its components are the

only bodies that represent our profession to legislators, insurers,

regulators, etc. By your way of thinking, would you also say that because

there is a great diversity of opinion in America, the American government

does not represent this country when dealing with other countries? Of

course it does, and APTA serves as our representative to insurers,

government, other professions, etc. Sure, lone PT's can try to exert

influence in a legislature or with an insurer, but I know that a few hundred

or thousand voices is much more effective than one. After all, how

successful would a football team be if only one person ran out onto the

field? It takes a team, and APTA is our team.

Mark Dwyer, PT, MHA

Olathe, Kansas

markdwyer87@...

Physician Ownership New Perspective

> >

> > Group

> >

> > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> practice

> > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

nothing

> > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> environment

> > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> MD's

> > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> their

> > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> MD's

> > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> >

> > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> playing

> > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> This

> > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

is

> > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> the

> > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

or

> > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> >

> > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

producer

> > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> >

> > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> or

> > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> offer

> > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> well

> > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> have.

> > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> >

> > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

MD's

> > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or

a

> > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

the

> > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

the

> > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

PT's?

> > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

think

> we

> > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

same

> > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

vestibular

> > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> good

> > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

for

> > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

to

> > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> order

> > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> >

> > Thanks for your time :-)

> >

> > Witt, PT

> >

> > Delray Beach, FL

> >

> > Private Practice

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

,

While I respect what you say below, I agree with Dick that while there is

great diversity of opinion within the APTA, it and its components are the

only bodies that represent our profession to legislators, insurers,

regulators, etc. By your way of thinking, would you also say that because

there is a great diversity of opinion in America, the American government

does not represent this country when dealing with other countries? Of

course it does, and APTA serves as our representative to insurers,

government, other professions, etc. Sure, lone PT's can try to exert

influence in a legislature or with an insurer, but I know that a few hundred

or thousand voices is much more effective than one. After all, how

successful would a football team be if only one person ran out onto the

field? It takes a team, and APTA is our team.

Mark Dwyer, PT, MHA

Olathe, Kansas

markdwyer87@...

Physician Ownership New Perspective

> >

> > Group

> >

> > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> practice

> > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

nothing

> > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> environment

> > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> MD's

> > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> their

> > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> MD's

> > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> >

> > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> playing

> > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> This

> > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

is

> > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> the

> > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

or

> > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> >

> > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

producer

> > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> >

> > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> or

> > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> offer

> > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> well

> > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> have.

> > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> >

> > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

MD's

> > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or

a

> > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

the

> > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

the

> > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

PT's?

> > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

think

> we

> > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

same

> > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

vestibular

> > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> good

> > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

for

> > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

to

> > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> order

> > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> >

> > Thanks for your time :-)

> >

> > Witt, PT

> >

> > Delray Beach, FL

> >

> > Private Practice

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Mark,

I agree with alot of what you say. APTA is our collective voice to

legislators, regulators, etc. I agree that we are part of a team. As

I mentioned, I have been a member of APTA for a long time.

My specific correction was to a post that said " Our profession has

spoken on this issue " . I pointed out that APTA spoke out, not the

profession itself. If the profession itself had spoken against it,

there would be no more POPTS. Some action would have been taken on

the matter. But as it stands, there are still hundreds or thousands

of PTs (many APTA members included)

working in POPTS settings.

That's why the APTA/US Government analogy didn't work for me. The

APTA is not a legislative body that can enact change. They are a

lobby group, just like the NRA or the NEA.

That's all I meant.

> ,

>

> While I respect what you say below, I agree with Dick that while there is

> great diversity of opinion within the APTA, it and its components are the

> only bodies that represent our profession to legislators, insurers,

> regulators, etc. By your way of thinking, would you also say that because

> there is a great diversity of opinion in America, the American government

> does not represent this country when dealing with other countries? Of

> course it does, and APTA serves as our representative to insurers,

> government, other professions, etc. Sure, lone PT's can try to exert

> influence in a legislature or with an insurer, but I know that a few hundred

> or thousand voices is much more effective than one. After all, how

> successful would a football team be if only one person ran out onto the

> field? It takes a team, and APTA is our team.

>

> Mark Dwyer, PT, MHA

> Olathe, Kansas

> markdwyer87@...

>

> Physician Ownership New Perspective

> > >

> > > Group

> > >

> > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> > practice

> > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

> nothing

> > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> > environment

> > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> > MD's

> > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> > their

> > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> > MD's

> > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> > >

> > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> > playing

> > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> > This

> > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

> is

> > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> > the

> > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

> or

> > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> > >

> > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

> producer

> > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> > >

> > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> > or

> > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> > offer

> > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> > well

> > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> > have.

> > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> > >

> > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

> MD's

> > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or

> a

> > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

> the

> > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

> the

> > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

> PT's?

> > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

> think

> > we

> > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

> same

> > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

> vestibular

> > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> > good

> > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

> for

> > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

> to

> > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> > order

> > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> > >

> > > Thanks for your time :-)

> > >

> > > Witt, PT

> > >

> > > Delray Beach, FL

> > >

> > > Private Practice

> > >

> > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Mark,

I agree with alot of what you say. APTA is our collective voice to

legislators, regulators, etc. I agree that we are part of a team. As

I mentioned, I have been a member of APTA for a long time.

My specific correction was to a post that said " Our profession has

spoken on this issue " . I pointed out that APTA spoke out, not the

profession itself. If the profession itself had spoken against it,

there would be no more POPTS. Some action would have been taken on

the matter. But as it stands, there are still hundreds or thousands

of PTs (many APTA members included)

working in POPTS settings.

That's why the APTA/US Government analogy didn't work for me. The

APTA is not a legislative body that can enact change. They are a

lobby group, just like the NRA or the NEA.

That's all I meant.

> ,

>

> While I respect what you say below, I agree with Dick that while there is

> great diversity of opinion within the APTA, it and its components are the

> only bodies that represent our profession to legislators, insurers,

> regulators, etc. By your way of thinking, would you also say that because

> there is a great diversity of opinion in America, the American government

> does not represent this country when dealing with other countries? Of

> course it does, and APTA serves as our representative to insurers,

> government, other professions, etc. Sure, lone PT's can try to exert

> influence in a legislature or with an insurer, but I know that a few hundred

> or thousand voices is much more effective than one. After all, how

> successful would a football team be if only one person ran out onto the

> field? It takes a team, and APTA is our team.

>

> Mark Dwyer, PT, MHA

> Olathe, Kansas

> markdwyer87@...

>

> Physician Ownership New Perspective

> > >

> > > Group

> > >

> > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> > practice

> > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

> nothing

> > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> > environment

> > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> > MD's

> > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> > their

> > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> > MD's

> > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> > >

> > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> > playing

> > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> > This

> > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

> is

> > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> > the

> > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

> or

> > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> > >

> > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

> producer

> > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> > >

> > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> > or

> > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> > offer

> > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> > well

> > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> > have.

> > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> > >

> > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

> MD's

> > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or

> a

> > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

> the

> > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

> the

> > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

> PT's?

> > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

> think

> > we

> > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

> same

> > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

> vestibular

> > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> > good

> > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

> for

> > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

> to

> > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> > order

> > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> > >

> > > Thanks for your time :-)

> > >

> > > Witt, PT

> > >

> > > Delray Beach, FL

> > >

> > > Private Practice

> > >

> > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Mark,

I agree with alot of what you say. APTA is our collective voice to

legislators, regulators, etc. I agree that we are part of a team. As

I mentioned, I have been a member of APTA for a long time.

My specific correction was to a post that said " Our profession has

spoken on this issue " . I pointed out that APTA spoke out, not the

profession itself. If the profession itself had spoken against it,

there would be no more POPTS. Some action would have been taken on

the matter. But as it stands, there are still hundreds or thousands

of PTs (many APTA members included)

working in POPTS settings.

That's why the APTA/US Government analogy didn't work for me. The

APTA is not a legislative body that can enact change. They are a

lobby group, just like the NRA or the NEA.

That's all I meant.

> ,

>

> While I respect what you say below, I agree with Dick that while there is

> great diversity of opinion within the APTA, it and its components are the

> only bodies that represent our profession to legislators, insurers,

> regulators, etc. By your way of thinking, would you also say that because

> there is a great diversity of opinion in America, the American government

> does not represent this country when dealing with other countries? Of

> course it does, and APTA serves as our representative to insurers,

> government, other professions, etc. Sure, lone PT's can try to exert

> influence in a legislature or with an insurer, but I know that a few hundred

> or thousand voices is much more effective than one. After all, how

> successful would a football team be if only one person ran out onto the

> field? It takes a team, and APTA is our team.

>

> Mark Dwyer, PT, MHA

> Olathe, Kansas

> markdwyer87@...

>

> Physician Ownership New Perspective

> > >

> > > Group

> > >

> > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> > practice

> > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

> nothing

> > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> > environment

> > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> > MD's

> > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> > their

> > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> > MD's

> > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> > >

> > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> > playing

> > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> > This

> > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

> is

> > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> > the

> > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

> or

> > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> > >

> > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

> producer

> > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> > >

> > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> > or

> > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> > offer

> > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> > well

> > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> > have.

> > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> > >

> > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

> MD's

> > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or

> a

> > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

> the

> > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

> the

> > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

> PT's?

> > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

> think

> > we

> > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

> same

> > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

> vestibular

> > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> > good

> > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

> for

> > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

> to

> > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> > order

> > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> > >

> > > Thanks for your time :-)

> > >

> > > Witt, PT

> > >

> > > Delray Beach, FL

> > >

> > > Private Practice

> > >

> > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dear Mark,

My last comments said nothing about the APTA. Of course I support the APTA,

very much, they are the only way that we are going to get what the industry

needs. I was eluding to the need for the PT industry to stand alone and not

be under doctors.

Thanks,

Barker F. II

Clinical Director

Lakeway Aquatic Therapy & Wellness Center

P.O. Box 342348

1927 Lohmans Crossing, Suite 100

Austin, TX 78734

-Office Tel.

- Office Fax

- Mobile

www.lakewayaquatics.com

This email and any files transmitted with it may contain PRVILEGED or

CONFIDENTIAL information and may be read or used only by the intended

recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of the email or any of its

attachments, please be advised that you have received this email in error

and that any use, dissemination, distribution, forwarding, printing, or

copying of this email or any attached files is strictly prohibited. If you

have received this email in error, please immediately purge it and all

attachments and notify the sender by reply email or contact the sender at

the number listed.

Physician Ownership New Perspective

> >

> > Group

> >

> > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> practice

> > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

nothing

> > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> environment

> > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> MD's

> > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> their

> > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> MD's

> > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> >

> > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> playing

> > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> This

> > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

is

> > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> the

> > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

or

> > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> >

> > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

producer

> > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> >

> > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> or

> > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> offer

> > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> well

> > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> have.

> > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> >

> > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

MD's

> > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or

a

> > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

the

> > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

the

> > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

PT's?

> > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

think

> we

> > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

same

> > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

vestibular

> > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> good

> > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

for

> > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

to

> > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> order

> > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> >

> > Thanks for your time :-)

> >

> > Witt, PT

> >

> > Delray Beach, FL

> >

> > Private Practice

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dear Mark,

My last comments said nothing about the APTA. Of course I support the APTA,

very much, they are the only way that we are going to get what the industry

needs. I was eluding to the need for the PT industry to stand alone and not

be under doctors.

Thanks,

Barker F. II

Clinical Director

Lakeway Aquatic Therapy & Wellness Center

P.O. Box 342348

1927 Lohmans Crossing, Suite 100

Austin, TX 78734

-Office Tel.

- Office Fax

- Mobile

www.lakewayaquatics.com

This email and any files transmitted with it may contain PRVILEGED or

CONFIDENTIAL information and may be read or used only by the intended

recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of the email or any of its

attachments, please be advised that you have received this email in error

and that any use, dissemination, distribution, forwarding, printing, or

copying of this email or any attached files is strictly prohibited. If you

have received this email in error, please immediately purge it and all

attachments and notify the sender by reply email or contact the sender at

the number listed.

Physician Ownership New Perspective

> >

> > Group

> >

> > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> practice

> > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

nothing

> > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> environment

> > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> MD's

> > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> their

> > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> MD's

> > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> >

> > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> playing

> > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> This

> > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

is

> > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> the

> > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

or

> > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> >

> > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

producer

> > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> >

> > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> or

> > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> offer

> > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> well

> > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> have.

> > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> >

> > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

MD's

> > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or

a

> > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

the

> > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

the

> > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

PT's?

> > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

think

> we

> > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

same

> > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

vestibular

> > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> good

> > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

for

> > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

to

> > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> order

> > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> >

> > Thanks for your time :-)

> >

> > Witt, PT

> >

> > Delray Beach, FL

> >

> > Private Practice

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dear Mark,

My last comments said nothing about the APTA. Of course I support the APTA,

very much, they are the only way that we are going to get what the industry

needs. I was eluding to the need for the PT industry to stand alone and not

be under doctors.

Thanks,

Barker F. II

Clinical Director

Lakeway Aquatic Therapy & Wellness Center

P.O. Box 342348

1927 Lohmans Crossing, Suite 100

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Physician Ownership New Perspective

> >

> > Group

> >

> > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> practice

> > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the

> > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

nothing

> > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> environment

> > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> MD's

> > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> their

> > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> MD's

> > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> >

> > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> playing

> > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the

> > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> This

> > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

is

> > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with

> the

> > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

or

> > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> >

> > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

producer

> > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> >

> > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice

> or

> > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> offer

> > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as

> well

> > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the

> > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> have.

> > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> >

> > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

MD's

> > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and

> > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or

a

> > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

the

> > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

the

> > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

PT's?

> > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

think

> we

> > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work

> > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

same

> > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location,

> > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

vestibular

> > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> good

> > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

for

> > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

to

> > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> order

> > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> >

> > Thanks for your time :-)

> >

> > Witt, PT

> >

> > Delray Beach, FL

> >

> > Private Practice

> >

> >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

" If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more

POPTS. "

;

It would certainly be nice if this were true, wouldn't it? I think what you

may be failing to realize, however, is that any professional group is only

as strong as its' membership. Strength of membership is determined by;

-Number of members, and their relative representation of the profession.

-Amount of dollars at their disposal, both for operations and lobbying.

-Number of members willing to stand up & speak out.

If a professional association lacks any of the above, its' effectiveness is

diminished. Unfortunately, far too many of us seek others to do the

fighting for us, rather than fighting for ourselves. Worse, some who oppose

situations such as POPTS, will still work in one. What does that say about

them, and " us " ?

Ken Mailly, PT

Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

Tel. 973 692-0033

Fax 973 633-9557

68 Seneca Trail

Wayne, NJ, 07470

www.NJPTAid.biz

Bridging the Gap!

Physician Ownership New Perspective

> > >

> > > Group

> > >

> > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> > practice

> > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on

the

> > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

> nothing

> > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> > environment

> > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> > MD's

> > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> > their

> > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> > MD's

> > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> > >

> > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> > playing

> > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns

the

> > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> > This

> > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

> is

> > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship

with

> > the

> > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

> or

> > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> > >

> > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

> producer

> > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> > >

> > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private

practice

> > or

> > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> > offer

> > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office

as

> > well

> > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have

the

> > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> > have.

> > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> > >

> > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

> MD's

> > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI,

and

> > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they

or

> a

> > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

> the

> > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

> the

> > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

> PT's?

> > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

> think

> > we

> > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to

work

> > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

> same

> > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location,

location,

> > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

> vestibular

> > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> > good

> > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

> for

> > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

> to

> > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> > order

> > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> > >

> > > Thanks for your time :-)

> > >

> > > Witt, PT

> > >

> > > Delray Beach, FL

> > >

> > > Private Practice

> > >

> > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

" If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more

POPTS. "

;

It would certainly be nice if this were true, wouldn't it? I think what you

may be failing to realize, however, is that any professional group is only

as strong as its' membership. Strength of membership is determined by;

-Number of members, and their relative representation of the profession.

-Amount of dollars at their disposal, both for operations and lobbying.

-Number of members willing to stand up & speak out.

If a professional association lacks any of the above, its' effectiveness is

diminished. Unfortunately, far too many of us seek others to do the

fighting for us, rather than fighting for ourselves. Worse, some who oppose

situations such as POPTS, will still work in one. What does that say about

them, and " us " ?

Ken Mailly, PT

Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

Tel. 973 692-0033

Fax 973 633-9557

68 Seneca Trail

Wayne, NJ, 07470

www.NJPTAid.biz

Bridging the Gap!

Physician Ownership New Perspective

> > >

> > > Group

> > >

> > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> > practice

> > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on

the

> > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

> nothing

> > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> > environment

> > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> > MD's

> > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> > their

> > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> > MD's

> > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> > >

> > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> > playing

> > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns

the

> > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> > This

> > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

> is

> > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship

with

> > the

> > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

> or

> > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> > >

> > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

> producer

> > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> > >

> > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private

practice

> > or

> > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> > offer

> > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office

as

> > well

> > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have

the

> > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> > have.

> > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> > >

> > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

> MD's

> > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI,

and

> > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they

or

> a

> > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

> the

> > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

> the

> > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

> PT's?

> > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

> think

> > we

> > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to

work

> > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

> same

> > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location,

location,

> > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

> vestibular

> > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> > good

> > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

> for

> > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

> to

> > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> > order

> > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> > >

> > > Thanks for your time :-)

> > >

> > > Witt, PT

> > >

> > > Delray Beach, FL

> > >

> > > Private Practice

> > >

> > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Ken,

I do realize that the APTA is only as strong as its membership. I

suppose I just haven't done a good job of making my point.

My point remains that for all of it's wonderful attributes, the APTA

cannot claim to speak for the entire profession. They are a lobby

group that advocates certain positions that some PTs favor and some

PTs do not favor. But just because they say all PTs should be DPTs,

that doesn't mean the profession of physical therapy feels the same

way. All it means is that the largest lobby of PTs feels that way.

no matter how stroang of a lobby, no matter how much money they get,

they are still just a lobby.

And I still have not heard anyone reply as to why the APTA strongly

opposes POPTS but still actively recruits new members who are part of

POPTS organizations. Isn't this a conflict of interest? The APTA

says we think you are wrong, we think you are doing business in an

unethical environment, but we still want your money and we still want

you to be a member of our group?

How is that making a stand or fighting for what they believe in? What

does that say about the APTA?

> " If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more

> POPTS. "

>

> ;

>

> It would certainly be nice if this were true, wouldn't it? I think what you

> may be failing to realize, however, is that any professional group is only

> as strong as its' membership. Strength of membership is determined by;

>

> -Number of members, and their relative representation of the profession.

> -Amount of dollars at their disposal, both for operations and lobbying.

> -Number of members willing to stand up & speak out.

>

> If a professional association lacks any of the above, its' effectiveness is

> diminished. Unfortunately, far too many of us seek others to do the

> fighting for us, rather than fighting for ourselves. Worse, some who oppose

> situations such as POPTS, will still work in one. What does that say about

> them, and " us " ?

>

> Ken Mailly, PT

> Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

> Tel. 973 692-0033

> Fax 973 633-9557

> 68 Seneca Trail

> Wayne, NJ, 07470

> www.NJPTAid.biz

>

> Bridging the Gap!

>

>

> Physician Ownership New Perspective

> > > >

> > > > Group

> > > >

> > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> > > practice

> > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on

> the

> > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

> > nothing

> > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> > > environment

> > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> > > MD's

> > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> > > their

> > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> > > MD's

> > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> > > >

> > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> > > playing

> > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns

> the

> > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> > > This

> > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

> > is

> > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship

> with

> > > the

> > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

> > or

> > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> > > >

> > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

> > producer

> > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> > > >

> > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private

> practice

> > > or

> > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> > > offer

> > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office

> as

> > > well

> > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have

> the

> > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> > > have.

> > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> > > >

> > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

> > MD's

> > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI,

> and

> > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they

> or

> > a

> > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

> > the

> > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

> > the

> > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

> > PT's?

> > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

> > think

> > > we

> > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to

> work

> > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

> > same

> > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location,

> location,

> > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

> > vestibular

> > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> > > good

> > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

> > for

> > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

> > to

> > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> > > order

> > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for your time :-)

> > > >

> > > > Witt, PT

> > > >

> > > > Delray Beach, FL

> > > >

> > > > Private Practice

> > > >

> > > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Ken,

I do realize that the APTA is only as strong as its membership. I

suppose I just haven't done a good job of making my point.

My point remains that for all of it's wonderful attributes, the APTA

cannot claim to speak for the entire profession. They are a lobby

group that advocates certain positions that some PTs favor and some

PTs do not favor. But just because they say all PTs should be DPTs,

that doesn't mean the profession of physical therapy feels the same

way. All it means is that the largest lobby of PTs feels that way.

no matter how stroang of a lobby, no matter how much money they get,

they are still just a lobby.

And I still have not heard anyone reply as to why the APTA strongly

opposes POPTS but still actively recruits new members who are part of

POPTS organizations. Isn't this a conflict of interest? The APTA

says we think you are wrong, we think you are doing business in an

unethical environment, but we still want your money and we still want

you to be a member of our group?

How is that making a stand or fighting for what they believe in? What

does that say about the APTA?

> " If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more

> POPTS. "

>

> ;

>

> It would certainly be nice if this were true, wouldn't it? I think what you

> may be failing to realize, however, is that any professional group is only

> as strong as its' membership. Strength of membership is determined by;

>

> -Number of members, and their relative representation of the profession.

> -Amount of dollars at their disposal, both for operations and lobbying.

> -Number of members willing to stand up & speak out.

>

> If a professional association lacks any of the above, its' effectiveness is

> diminished. Unfortunately, far too many of us seek others to do the

> fighting for us, rather than fighting for ourselves. Worse, some who oppose

> situations such as POPTS, will still work in one. What does that say about

> them, and " us " ?

>

> Ken Mailly, PT

> Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC

> Tel. 973 692-0033

> Fax 973 633-9557

> 68 Seneca Trail

> Wayne, NJ, 07470

> www.NJPTAid.biz

>

> Bridging the Gap!

>

>

> Physician Ownership New Perspective

> > > >

> > > > Group

> > > >

> > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> > > practice

> > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on

> the

> > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

> > nothing

> > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> > > environment

> > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for

> > > MD's

> > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for

> > > their

> > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry

> > > MD's

> > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> > > >

> > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> > > playing

> > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns

> the

> > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's?

> > > This

> > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This

> > is

> > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship

> with

> > > the

> > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good

> > or

> > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> > > >

> > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

> > producer

> > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service.

> > > >

> > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private

> practice

> > > or

> > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups

> > > offer

> > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office

> as

> > > well

> > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have

> the

> > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups

> > > have.

> > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> > > >

> > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow

> > MD's

> > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest.

> > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI,

> and

> > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they

> or

> > a

> > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial

> > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across

> > the

> > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not

> > the

> > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

> > PT's?

> > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

> > think

> > > we

> > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to

> work

> > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

> > same

> > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location,

> location,

> > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

> > vestibular

> > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just

> > > good

> > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in

> > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us

> > for

> > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue

> > to

> > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in

> > > order

> > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for your time :-)

> > > >

> > > > Witt, PT

> > > >

> > > > Delray Beach, FL

> > > >

> > > > Private Practice

> > > >

> > > >

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

,

Please forgive my frankness, but this has to be said:

The APTA would speak for a more licensed PT's if they joined. That is a

point that we make over and over. If you have an opinion, come to meetings,

call the APTA, change our minds. If you are not doing that then you have

little right to complain about the course that the APTA sets.

And to say that the APTA doesn't speak for non-members is misinformed. Call

the APTA research department and ask them about all the surveys that have

been taken by them, by components of the APTA and that they have compiled

from other sources and ask them how many of them involve non-members. They

have plenty of " evidence " to support the issues and vision that they have

chosen to pursue, including plenty of survey evidence of strong support

against POPTS

Also check the volumes of minutes of the House of Delegates over the years

to see how passionate, intense and in depth the discussions are on these

issues. There is plenty of dissention but at the end of the session there

is professional agreement based on the input of hundreds of state delegates

who themselves have listened to the opinions of both members and non-members

of their state.

As far as the APTA denying membership to those that work in POPTS. You know

as well as I that if they wanted to make that a criteria for membership,

they could. In fact, it might be a good thing to propose to the next House

of Delegates. But I bet it would be defeated easily because it would not be

the " right " thing to do. I agree that it wouldn't be the right thing to do.

The right thing to do is to continue to try to change the hearts and minds

of those who don't believe that the APTA really does represent all

therapists, and to get you to trust that at the end of the day thousands of

committed APTA members and staff are working as hard as they can to make our

profession, your profession, the best it can be.

Tom Howell, P.T., M.P.T.

Howell Physical Therapy

Eagle, ID

ptclinic@...

Physician Ownership New Perspective

> > > >

> > > > Group

> > > >

> > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned

> > > practice

> > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on

> the

> > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to

> > nothing

> > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> > > environment

> > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working

for

> > > MD's

> > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services

for

> > > their

> > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit

hungry

> > > MD's

> > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice.

> > > >

> > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven

> > > playing

> > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns

> the

> > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as

PT's?

> > > This

> > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients.

This

> > is

> > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship

> with

> > > the

> > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are

good

> > or

> > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> > > >

> > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer /

> > producer

> > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT

service.

> > > >

> > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private

> practice

> > > or

> > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two

groups

> > > offer

> > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office

> as

> > > well

> > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have

> the

> > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD

groups

> > > have.

> > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> > > >

> > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not

allow

> > MD's

> > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial

interest.

> > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI,

> and

> > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that

they

> or

> > a

> > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the

> > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a

financial

> > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not

across

> > the

> > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but

not

> > the

> > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us

> > PT's?

> > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I

> > think

> > > we

> > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to

> work

> > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the

> > same

> > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location,

> location,

> > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

> > vestibular

> > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is

just

> > > good

> > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work

in

> > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of

us

> > for

> > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must

continue

> > to

> > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT)

in

> > > order

> > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for your time :-)

> > > >

> > > > Witt, PT

> > > >

> > > > Delray Beach, FL

> > > >

> > > > Private Practice

> > > >

> > > >

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Guest guest

I've had my disagreements with Tom, but not on this one. You have the

right to be, or to not be a member of the APTA. But if you're not a

member, you forfeit your right to complain. I further believe that you

absolutely owe it to your profession to be a member; without the APTA,

PT would have ceased to exist probably a generation ago. What right does

anyone have to share in the spoils of the associations many victories

when not a member? The APTA does speak for all PT's, whether they like

it or not.

I disagree with many of the positions taken by the APTA, including POPTS

- but I engage fiercely in the debate, say my piece and attempt to

influence positions. At the end of the day, the APTA speaks for all of

us and it alone, through our consent in the House of Delegates,

determines the direction for the profession. It's when good people do

disagree, but don't participate that 'tyranny' in the form of the few

deciding for the many, is able to flourish.

Should the APTA exclude certain members because they disagree with

stated positions? It's POPTS now, but a precedent it would definitely

set. If you disagree you are eliminated from the debate? I've seen no

evidence of that becoming reality, but if people with 'unpopular'

positions continue to exclude themselves from the debate, it becomes

more likely. I'm certainly in the minority at present, but this debate

will resolve and probably for the good of all involved. I am proud to be

a member of the APTA.

Brett Windsor, PT, OCS, COMT, FAAOMPT

Director of Ancillary Services

The Vancouver Clinic

(office)

Physician Ownership New Perspective

> > > >

> > > > Group

> > > >

> > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician

owned

> > > practice

> > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model

solely on

> the

> > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead

to

> > nothing

> > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which

> > > environment

> > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's

working

for

> > > MD's

> > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT

services

for

> > > their

> > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit

hungry

> > > MD's

> > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned

practice.

> > > >

> > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an

uneven

> > > playing

> > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND

owns

> the

> > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as

PT's?

> > > This

> > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients.

This

> > is

> > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical

relationship

> with

> > > the

> > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they

are

good

> > or

> > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not.

> > > >

> > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer

/

> > producer

> > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT

service.

> > > >

> > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private

> practice

> > > or

> > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two

groups

> > > offer

> > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD

office

> as

> > > well

> > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not

have

> the

> > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD

groups

> > > have.

> > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access.

> > > >

> > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not

allow

> > MD's

> > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial

interest.

> > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT,

MRI,

> and

> > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that

they

> or

> > a

> > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for

the

> > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a

financial

> > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not

across

> > the

> > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one,

but

not

> > the

> > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of

us

> > PT's?

> > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of

expertise, I

> > think

> > > we

> > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want

to

> work

> > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares

the

> > same

> > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location,

> location,

> > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of

> > vestibular

> > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That

is

just

> > > good

> > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that

work

in

> > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any

of

us

> > for

> > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must

continue

> > to

> > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own

PT)

in

> > > order

> > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for your time :-)

> > > >

> > > > Witt, PT

> > > >

> > > > Delray Beach, FL

> > > >

> > > > Private Practice

> > > >

> > > >

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