Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 - " This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer equity... " Thanks for the insight. Macro addreses the global, international, and perhaps national levels -- where the interests of the nation and society as a whole are at stake. The nation does not want docs writing prescriptions and then selling the drugs, so docs may not own drugstores. The same is the case with them controlling demand for other goods and services over which they also control supply. It doesn't respond to market forces, and the beneficiary patient doesn't either, since they are in effect spending **someone else's money**. Where markets cannot control, strong central forces must, or else chaos ensues. The **someone else** would be... we the people, their fellow citizens who. with our tax money are paying today for services received by the Medicare population in hopes that years or decades in the future someone else will be paying for the goods and services which we will receive. Or, in the non-Medicare arena, we the people are the premium payors for insurance benefits demanded (economic term!) and supplied (another!) to others in our insurance plan. At the industry, region, State, and local level -- right down to the small practice, it's a microeconomic issue. The doc who used you for years can suddenly become fickle and make alliances (shades of Reality TV!) with the newer, more " kiss-up " therapist in town who brings them fancy cake every other Friday. This moves economic power to the doc. Our national policy makers don't like anticompetitive practices, such as a doc may exert over those to whom they refer. (Consider the Bureau of Competition at the Federal Trade Commission). I agree with . It's no longer about neurons, myofibrils, and correct hand positioning. It's about economics and about whether the profession is willing to return to the master-slave relationships of previous decades, or is determined to finally cast off the shackles of physician dominance. Actually, I think that the profession has actually taken a stance on these issues... Has everyone read them? As a former teacher of graduate economics, I'm preparing a set of CEU presentations for our own PT/OT/ SLP staff on the Economics of Rehab Practice, for the upcoming fall. What are other rehab managers doing to innoculate their staffs? Dick Hillyer, PT, MBA, MSM System Director Rehabilitation Sevices Lee Memorial Health system Ft. Myers, FL Physician Ownership New Perspective Group I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have. It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order to make a living doing the great things for their patients. Thanks for your time :-) Witt, PT Delray Beach, FL Private Practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 Dick Thank you for the schooling on economics. Also, thank you for understanding the intent of my message and not running me over because of my incorrect use of the term macro vs. micro. Have a great weekend Witt, PT Delray Beach, FL Private Practice Physician Ownership New Perspective Group I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have. It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order to make a living doing the great things for their patients. Thanks for your time :-) Witt, PT Delray Beach, FL Private Practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 Dick Thank you for the schooling on economics. Also, thank you for understanding the intent of my message and not running me over because of my incorrect use of the term macro vs. micro. Have a great weekend Witt, PT Delray Beach, FL Private Practice Physician Ownership New Perspective Group I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have. It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order to make a living doing the great things for their patients. Thanks for your time :-) Witt, PT Delray Beach, FL Private Practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 Dick Thank you for the schooling on economics. Also, thank you for understanding the intent of my message and not running me over because of my incorrect use of the term macro vs. micro. Have a great weekend Witt, PT Delray Beach, FL Private Practice Physician Ownership New Perspective Group I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have. It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order to make a living doing the great things for their patients. Thanks for your time :-) Witt, PT Delray Beach, FL Private Practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2005 Report Share Posted May 14, 2005 " I think that the profession has actually taken a stance on these issues " . Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never will speak for the profession as a whole. I have read their stance on this issue. I am a member in good standing of the APTA, I appreciate what they do, but they don't speak for the profession as a whole on this or any other issues, just as the AMA does not speak for the profession of practicing medicine as a whole. It is funny to me that the APTA is so appalled by POPTS and yet still admits members who work for POPTS, knowing full well those dues are likely being paid by the MD/owners. > - > > " This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > equity... " > > Thanks for the insight. Macro addreses the global, international, and > perhaps national levels -- where the interests of the nation and society as > a whole are at stake. The nation does not want docs writing prescriptions > and then selling the drugs, so docs may not own drugstores. The same is the > case with them controlling demand for other goods and services over which > they also control supply. It doesn't respond to market forces, and the > beneficiary patient doesn't either, since they are in effect spending > **someone else's money**. Where markets cannot control, strong central > forces must, or else chaos ensues. > > The **someone else** would be... we the people, their fellow citizens who. > with our tax money are paying today for services received by the Medicare > population in hopes that years or decades in the future someone else will be > paying for the goods and services which we will receive. Or, in the > non-Medicare arena, we the people are the premium payors for insurance > benefits demanded (economic term!) and supplied (another!) to others in our > insurance plan. > > At the industry, region, State, and local level -- right down to the small > practice, it's a microeconomic issue. The doc who used you for years can > suddenly become fickle and make alliances (shades of Reality TV!) with the > newer, more " kiss-up " therapist in town who brings them fancy cake every > other Friday. This moves economic power to the doc. Our national policy > makers don't like anticompetitive practices, such as a doc may exert over > those to whom they refer. (Consider the Bureau of Competition at the > Federal Trade Commission). > > I agree with . It's no longer about neurons, myofibrils, and correct > hand positioning. It's about economics and about whether the profession is > willing to return to the master-slave relationships of previous decades, or > is determined to finally cast off the shackles of physician dominance. > > Actually, I think that the profession has actually taken a stance on these > issues... Has everyone read them? > > As a former teacher of graduate economics, I'm preparing a set of CEU > presentations for our own PT/OT/ SLP staff on the Economics of Rehab > Practice, for the upcoming fall. What are other rehab managers doing to > innoculate their staffs? > > > Dick Hillyer, PT, MBA, MSM > System Director > Rehabilitation Sevices > Lee Memorial Health system > Ft. Myers, FL > > > Physician Ownership New Perspective > > Group > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have. > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > Thanks for your time :-) > > Witt, PT > > Delray Beach, FL > > Private Practice > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 - " Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never will speak for the profession as a whole. " Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice... If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized. Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor. So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility, and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation (an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else. I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join. Dick Hillyer Cape Coral,FL Physician Ownership New Perspective > > Group > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have. > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > Thanks for your time :-) > > Witt, PT > > Delray Beach, FL > > Private Practice > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 - " Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never will speak for the profession as a whole. " Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice... If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized. Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor. So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility, and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation (an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else. I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join. Dick Hillyer Cape Coral,FL Physician Ownership New Perspective > > Group > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have. > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > Thanks for your time :-) > > Witt, PT > > Delray Beach, FL > > Private Practice > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 - " Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never will speak for the profession as a whole. " Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice... If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized. Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor. So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility, and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation (an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else. I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join. Dick Hillyer Cape Coral,FL Physician Ownership New Perspective > > Group > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned practice > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which environment > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for MD's > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for their > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry MD's > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven playing > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? This > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with the > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice or > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups offer > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as well > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups have. > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think we > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just good > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in order > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > Thanks for your time :-) > > Witt, PT > > Delray Beach, FL > > Private Practice > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Dick, I agree that the APTA is the largest voice speaking out and lobbying for the profession. But my point was they do not/cannot speak for the profession itself considering the huge diversity of opinion you accurately noted. I just see a big difference in the two. APTA supports direct access, but there are many PTs, including members, who don't. Same for the DPT, same for POPTS. My point is that APTA's stance on these or any other issues cannot accurately be referred to as saying " the profession has spoken " . The truth is that the profession's largest lobbying group has spoken, and there is a big difference in the two. Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate your opinion. > - > > " Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the > same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never > will speak for the profession as a whole. " > > Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice... > > If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my > practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to > Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of > Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other > organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of > the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory > bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There > is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in > which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized. > > Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if > they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor. > > So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its > components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is > within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility, > and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation > (an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else. > > I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants > who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and > the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value > liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join. > > > Dick Hillyer > Cape Coral,FL > > > Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > Group > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > practice > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > environment > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > MD's > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > their > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > MD's > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > playing > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > This > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > the > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > or > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > offer > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > well > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > have. > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think > we > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > good > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > order > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > Witt, PT > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > Private Practice > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Dick, I agree that the APTA is the largest voice speaking out and lobbying for the profession. But my point was they do not/cannot speak for the profession itself considering the huge diversity of opinion you accurately noted. I just see a big difference in the two. APTA supports direct access, but there are many PTs, including members, who don't. Same for the DPT, same for POPTS. My point is that APTA's stance on these or any other issues cannot accurately be referred to as saying " the profession has spoken " . The truth is that the profession's largest lobbying group has spoken, and there is a big difference in the two. Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate your opinion. > - > > " Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the > same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never > will speak for the profession as a whole. " > > Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice... > > If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my > practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to > Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of > Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other > organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of > the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory > bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There > is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in > which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized. > > Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if > they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor. > > So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its > components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is > within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility, > and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation > (an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else. > > I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants > who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and > the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value > liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join. > > > Dick Hillyer > Cape Coral,FL > > > Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > Group > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > practice > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > environment > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > MD's > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > their > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > MD's > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > playing > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > This > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > the > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > or > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > offer > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > well > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > have. > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think > we > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > good > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > order > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > Witt, PT > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > Private Practice > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 Dick, I agree that the APTA is the largest voice speaking out and lobbying for the profession. But my point was they do not/cannot speak for the profession itself considering the huge diversity of opinion you accurately noted. I just see a big difference in the two. APTA supports direct access, but there are many PTs, including members, who don't. Same for the DPT, same for POPTS. My point is that APTA's stance on these or any other issues cannot accurately be referred to as saying " the profession has spoken " . The truth is that the profession's largest lobbying group has spoken, and there is a big difference in the two. Thanks for the discussion. I appreciate your opinion. > - > > " Are you equating the APTA to " the profession " ? They are not one and the > same. Our professional organization doesn not, has not and never > will speak for the profession as a whole. " > > Actually, it's all that there is. There is no other voice... > > If I am called to a witness stand and held to account for some aspect of my > practice, there is no other resource in the nation but the APTA's Guide to > Practice (and my State practice act) which is considered the Standard of > Practice. No other Code of Ethics exists for therapists. No other > organization has representatives visiting Congressional offices on behalf of > the profession and providing expert testimony to committees and regulatory > bodies setting forth the nature of the practice of physical therapy. There > is no other knowledgeable forum but the various components of the APTA in > which the practice of PT is analyzed, debated, forged, and publicized. > > Any therapist who does not practice by the above standards is very alone if > they're attacked on the witness stand by a motivated prosecutor. > > So, yes, I suppose that in the absence of any other, the APTA and its > components really are the only voice that the profession has. There is > within the APTA a huge diversity of opinion. It's a major responsibility, > and I hope that the APTA is always able to provide perfect representation > (an impossibility), but frankly, there isn't anything else. > > I say that in full knowledge that there are many therapists and assistants > who do not choose to join, but they're benefitting from the efforts -- and > the dues -- of those of us who do pay the freight, as it were. I value > liberty, but I also value association. So I choose to join. > > > Dick Hillyer > Cape Coral,FL > > > Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > Group > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > practice > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > environment > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > MD's > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > their > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > MD's > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > playing > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > This > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > the > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > or > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > offer > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > well > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > have. > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think > we > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > good > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > order > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > Witt, PT > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > Private Practice > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 , While I respect what you say below, I agree with Dick that while there is great diversity of opinion within the APTA, it and its components are the only bodies that represent our profession to legislators, insurers, regulators, etc. By your way of thinking, would you also say that because there is a great diversity of opinion in America, the American government does not represent this country when dealing with other countries? Of course it does, and APTA serves as our representative to insurers, government, other professions, etc. Sure, lone PT's can try to exert influence in a legislature or with an insurer, but I know that a few hundred or thousand voices is much more effective than one. After all, how successful would a football team be if only one person ran out onto the field? It takes a team, and APTA is our team. Mark Dwyer, PT, MHA Olathe, Kansas markdwyer87@... Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > Group > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > practice > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > environment > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > MD's > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > their > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > MD's > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > playing > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > This > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > the > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > or > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > offer > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > well > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > have. > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think > we > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > good > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > order > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > Witt, PT > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > Private Practice > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2005 Report Share Posted May 15, 2005 , While I respect what you say below, I agree with Dick that while there is great diversity of opinion within the APTA, it and its components are the only bodies that represent our profession to legislators, insurers, regulators, etc. By your way of thinking, would you also say that because there is a great diversity of opinion in America, the American government does not represent this country when dealing with other countries? Of course it does, and APTA serves as our representative to insurers, government, other professions, etc. Sure, lone PT's can try to exert influence in a legislature or with an insurer, but I know that a few hundred or thousand voices is much more effective than one. After all, how successful would a football team be if only one person ran out onto the field? It takes a team, and APTA is our team. Mark Dwyer, PT, MHA Olathe, Kansas markdwyer87@... Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > Group > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > practice > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > environment > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > MD's > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > their > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > MD's > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > playing > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > This > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > the > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > or > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > offer > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > well > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > have. > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think > we > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > good > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > order > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > Witt, PT > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > Private Practice > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Mark, I agree with alot of what you say. APTA is our collective voice to legislators, regulators, etc. I agree that we are part of a team. As I mentioned, I have been a member of APTA for a long time. My specific correction was to a post that said " Our profession has spoken on this issue " . I pointed out that APTA spoke out, not the profession itself. If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more POPTS. Some action would have been taken on the matter. But as it stands, there are still hundreds or thousands of PTs (many APTA members included) working in POPTS settings. That's why the APTA/US Government analogy didn't work for me. The APTA is not a legislative body that can enact change. They are a lobby group, just like the NRA or the NEA. That's all I meant. > , > > While I respect what you say below, I agree with Dick that while there is > great diversity of opinion within the APTA, it and its components are the > only bodies that represent our profession to legislators, insurers, > regulators, etc. By your way of thinking, would you also say that because > there is a great diversity of opinion in America, the American government > does not represent this country when dealing with other countries? Of > course it does, and APTA serves as our representative to insurers, > government, other professions, etc. Sure, lone PT's can try to exert > influence in a legislature or with an insurer, but I know that a few hundred > or thousand voices is much more effective than one. After all, how > successful would a football team be if only one person ran out onto the > field? It takes a team, and APTA is our team. > > Mark Dwyer, PT, MHA > Olathe, Kansas > markdwyer87@... > > Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > > > Group > > > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > > practice > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to > nothing > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > > environment > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > > MD's > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > > their > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > > MD's > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > > playing > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > > This > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This > is > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > > the > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good > or > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / > producer > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > > or > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > > offer > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > > well > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > > have. > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow > MD's > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or > a > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across > the > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not > the > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us > PT's? > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I > think > > we > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the > same > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of > vestibular > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > > good > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us > for > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue > to > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > > order > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > > > Witt, PT > > > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > > > Private Practice > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Mark, I agree with alot of what you say. APTA is our collective voice to legislators, regulators, etc. I agree that we are part of a team. As I mentioned, I have been a member of APTA for a long time. My specific correction was to a post that said " Our profession has spoken on this issue " . I pointed out that APTA spoke out, not the profession itself. If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more POPTS. Some action would have been taken on the matter. But as it stands, there are still hundreds or thousands of PTs (many APTA members included) working in POPTS settings. That's why the APTA/US Government analogy didn't work for me. The APTA is not a legislative body that can enact change. They are a lobby group, just like the NRA or the NEA. That's all I meant. > , > > While I respect what you say below, I agree with Dick that while there is > great diversity of opinion within the APTA, it and its components are the > only bodies that represent our profession to legislators, insurers, > regulators, etc. By your way of thinking, would you also say that because > there is a great diversity of opinion in America, the American government > does not represent this country when dealing with other countries? Of > course it does, and APTA serves as our representative to insurers, > government, other professions, etc. Sure, lone PT's can try to exert > influence in a legislature or with an insurer, but I know that a few hundred > or thousand voices is much more effective than one. After all, how > successful would a football team be if only one person ran out onto the > field? It takes a team, and APTA is our team. > > Mark Dwyer, PT, MHA > Olathe, Kansas > markdwyer87@... > > Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > > > Group > > > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > > practice > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to > nothing > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > > environment > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > > MD's > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > > their > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > > MD's > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > > playing > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > > This > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This > is > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > > the > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good > or > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / > producer > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > > or > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > > offer > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > > well > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > > have. > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow > MD's > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or > a > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across > the > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not > the > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us > PT's? > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I > think > > we > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the > same > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of > vestibular > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > > good > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us > for > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue > to > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > > order > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > > > Witt, PT > > > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > > > Private Practice > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Mark, I agree with alot of what you say. APTA is our collective voice to legislators, regulators, etc. I agree that we are part of a team. As I mentioned, I have been a member of APTA for a long time. My specific correction was to a post that said " Our profession has spoken on this issue " . I pointed out that APTA spoke out, not the profession itself. If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more POPTS. Some action would have been taken on the matter. But as it stands, there are still hundreds or thousands of PTs (many APTA members included) working in POPTS settings. That's why the APTA/US Government analogy didn't work for me. The APTA is not a legislative body that can enact change. They are a lobby group, just like the NRA or the NEA. That's all I meant. > , > > While I respect what you say below, I agree with Dick that while there is > great diversity of opinion within the APTA, it and its components are the > only bodies that represent our profession to legislators, insurers, > regulators, etc. By your way of thinking, would you also say that because > there is a great diversity of opinion in America, the American government > does not represent this country when dealing with other countries? Of > course it does, and APTA serves as our representative to insurers, > government, other professions, etc. Sure, lone PT's can try to exert > influence in a legislature or with an insurer, but I know that a few hundred > or thousand voices is much more effective than one. After all, how > successful would a football team be if only one person ran out onto the > field? It takes a team, and APTA is our team. > > Mark Dwyer, PT, MHA > Olathe, Kansas > markdwyer87@... > > Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > > > Group > > > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > > practice > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to > nothing > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > > environment > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > > MD's > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > > their > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > > MD's > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > > playing > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > > This > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This > is > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > > the > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good > or > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / > producer > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > > or > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > > offer > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > > well > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > > have. > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow > MD's > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or > a > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across > the > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not > the > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us > PT's? > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I > think > > we > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the > same > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of > vestibular > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > > good > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us > for > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue > to > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > > order > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > > > Witt, PT > > > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > > > Private Practice > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Dear Mark, My last comments said nothing about the APTA. Of course I support the APTA, very much, they are the only way that we are going to get what the industry needs. I was eluding to the need for the PT industry to stand alone and not be under doctors. Thanks, Barker F. II Clinical Director Lakeway Aquatic Therapy & Wellness Center P.O. Box 342348 1927 Lohmans Crossing, Suite 100 Austin, TX 78734 -Office Tel. - Office Fax - Mobile www.lakewayaquatics.com This email and any files transmitted with it may contain PRVILEGED or CONFIDENTIAL information and may be read or used only by the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of the email or any of its attachments, please be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, distribution, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email or any attached files is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please immediately purge it and all attachments and notify the sender by reply email or contact the sender at the number listed. Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > Group > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > practice > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > environment > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > MD's > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > their > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > MD's > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > playing > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > This > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > the > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > or > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > offer > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > well > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > have. > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think > we > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > good > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > order > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > Witt, PT > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > Private Practice > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Dear Mark, My last comments said nothing about the APTA. Of course I support the APTA, very much, they are the only way that we are going to get what the industry needs. I was eluding to the need for the PT industry to stand alone and not be under doctors. Thanks, Barker F. II Clinical Director Lakeway Aquatic Therapy & Wellness Center P.O. Box 342348 1927 Lohmans Crossing, Suite 100 Austin, TX 78734 -Office Tel. - Office Fax - Mobile www.lakewayaquatics.com This email and any files transmitted with it may contain PRVILEGED or CONFIDENTIAL information and may be read or used only by the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of the email or any of its attachments, please be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, distribution, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email or any attached files is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please immediately purge it and all attachments and notify the sender by reply email or contact the sender at the number listed. Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > Group > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > practice > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > environment > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > MD's > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > their > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > MD's > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > playing > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > This > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > the > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > or > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > offer > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > well > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > have. > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think > we > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > good > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > order > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > Witt, PT > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > Private Practice > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Dear Mark, My last comments said nothing about the APTA. Of course I support the APTA, very much, they are the only way that we are going to get what the industry needs. I was eluding to the need for the PT industry to stand alone and not be under doctors. Thanks, Barker F. II Clinical Director Lakeway Aquatic Therapy & Wellness Center P.O. Box 342348 1927 Lohmans Crossing, Suite 100 Austin, TX 78734 -Office Tel. - Office Fax - Mobile www.lakewayaquatics.com This email and any files transmitted with it may contain PRVILEGED or CONFIDENTIAL information and may be read or used only by the intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient of the email or any of its attachments, please be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, distribution, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email or any attached files is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please immediately purge it and all attachments and notify the sender by reply email or contact the sender at the number listed. Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > Group > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > practice > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to nothing > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > environment > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > MD's > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > their > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > MD's > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > playing > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > This > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This is > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > the > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good or > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / producer > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > or > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > offer > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > well > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > have. > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow MD's > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or a > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across the > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not the > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us PT's? > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I think > we > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the same > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of vestibular > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > good > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us for > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue to > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > order > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > Witt, PT > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > Private Practice > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 " If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more POPTS. " ; It would certainly be nice if this were true, wouldn't it? I think what you may be failing to realize, however, is that any professional group is only as strong as its' membership. Strength of membership is determined by; -Number of members, and their relative representation of the profession. -Amount of dollars at their disposal, both for operations and lobbying. -Number of members willing to stand up & speak out. If a professional association lacks any of the above, its' effectiveness is diminished. Unfortunately, far too many of us seek others to do the fighting for us, rather than fighting for ourselves. Worse, some who oppose situations such as POPTS, will still work in one. What does that say about them, and " us " ? Ken Mailly, PT Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC Tel. 973 692-0033 Fax 973 633-9557 68 Seneca Trail Wayne, NJ, 07470 www.NJPTAid.biz Bridging the Gap! Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > > > Group > > > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > > practice > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to > nothing > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > > environment > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > > MD's > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > > their > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > > MD's > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > > playing > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > > This > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This > is > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > > the > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good > or > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / > producer > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > > or > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > > offer > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > > well > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > > have. > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow > MD's > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or > a > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across > the > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not > the > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us > PT's? > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I > think > > we > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the > same > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of > vestibular > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > > good > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us > for > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue > to > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > > order > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > > > Witt, PT > > > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > > > Private Practice > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 " If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more POPTS. " ; It would certainly be nice if this were true, wouldn't it? I think what you may be failing to realize, however, is that any professional group is only as strong as its' membership. Strength of membership is determined by; -Number of members, and their relative representation of the profession. -Amount of dollars at their disposal, both for operations and lobbying. -Number of members willing to stand up & speak out. If a professional association lacks any of the above, its' effectiveness is diminished. Unfortunately, far too many of us seek others to do the fighting for us, rather than fighting for ourselves. Worse, some who oppose situations such as POPTS, will still work in one. What does that say about them, and " us " ? Ken Mailly, PT Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC Tel. 973 692-0033 Fax 973 633-9557 68 Seneca Trail Wayne, NJ, 07470 www.NJPTAid.biz Bridging the Gap! Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > > > Group > > > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > > practice > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on the > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to > nothing > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > > environment > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > > MD's > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > > their > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > > MD's > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > > playing > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns the > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > > This > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This > is > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship with > > the > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good > or > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / > producer > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private practice > > or > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > > offer > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office as > > well > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have the > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > > have. > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow > MD's > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, and > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they or > a > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across > the > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not > the > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us > PT's? > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I > think > > we > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to work > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the > same > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, location, > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of > vestibular > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > > good > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us > for > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue > to > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > > order > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > > > Witt, PT > > > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > > > Private Practice > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Ken, I do realize that the APTA is only as strong as its membership. I suppose I just haven't done a good job of making my point. My point remains that for all of it's wonderful attributes, the APTA cannot claim to speak for the entire profession. They are a lobby group that advocates certain positions that some PTs favor and some PTs do not favor. But just because they say all PTs should be DPTs, that doesn't mean the profession of physical therapy feels the same way. All it means is that the largest lobby of PTs feels that way. no matter how stroang of a lobby, no matter how much money they get, they are still just a lobby. And I still have not heard anyone reply as to why the APTA strongly opposes POPTS but still actively recruits new members who are part of POPTS organizations. Isn't this a conflict of interest? The APTA says we think you are wrong, we think you are doing business in an unethical environment, but we still want your money and we still want you to be a member of our group? How is that making a stand or fighting for what they believe in? What does that say about the APTA? > " If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more > POPTS. " > > ; > > It would certainly be nice if this were true, wouldn't it? I think what you > may be failing to realize, however, is that any professional group is only > as strong as its' membership. Strength of membership is determined by; > > -Number of members, and their relative representation of the profession. > -Amount of dollars at their disposal, both for operations and lobbying. > -Number of members willing to stand up & speak out. > > If a professional association lacks any of the above, its' effectiveness is > diminished. Unfortunately, far too many of us seek others to do the > fighting for us, rather than fighting for ourselves. Worse, some who oppose > situations such as POPTS, will still work in one. What does that say about > them, and " us " ? > > Ken Mailly, PT > Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC > Tel. 973 692-0033 > Fax 973 633-9557 > 68 Seneca Trail > Wayne, NJ, 07470 > www.NJPTAid.biz > > Bridging the Gap! > > > Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > > > > > Group > > > > > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > > > practice > > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on > the > > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to > > nothing > > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > > > environment > > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > > > MD's > > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > > > their > > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > > > MD's > > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > > > playing > > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns > the > > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > > > This > > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This > > is > > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship > with > > > the > > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good > > or > > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / > > producer > > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private > practice > > > or > > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > > > offer > > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office > as > > > well > > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have > the > > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > > > have. > > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow > > MD's > > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, > and > > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they > or > > a > > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across > > the > > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not > > the > > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us > > PT's? > > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I > > think > > > we > > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to > work > > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the > > same > > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, > location, > > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of > > vestibular > > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > > > good > > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us > > for > > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue > > to > > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > > > order > > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > > > > > Witt, PT > > > > > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > > > > > Private Practice > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 Ken, I do realize that the APTA is only as strong as its membership. I suppose I just haven't done a good job of making my point. My point remains that for all of it's wonderful attributes, the APTA cannot claim to speak for the entire profession. They are a lobby group that advocates certain positions that some PTs favor and some PTs do not favor. But just because they say all PTs should be DPTs, that doesn't mean the profession of physical therapy feels the same way. All it means is that the largest lobby of PTs feels that way. no matter how stroang of a lobby, no matter how much money they get, they are still just a lobby. And I still have not heard anyone reply as to why the APTA strongly opposes POPTS but still actively recruits new members who are part of POPTS organizations. Isn't this a conflict of interest? The APTA says we think you are wrong, we think you are doing business in an unethical environment, but we still want your money and we still want you to be a member of our group? How is that making a stand or fighting for what they believe in? What does that say about the APTA? > " If the profession itself had spoken against it, there would be no more > POPTS. " > > ; > > It would certainly be nice if this were true, wouldn't it? I think what you > may be failing to realize, however, is that any professional group is only > as strong as its' membership. Strength of membership is determined by; > > -Number of members, and their relative representation of the profession. > -Amount of dollars at their disposal, both for operations and lobbying. > -Number of members willing to stand up & speak out. > > If a professional association lacks any of the above, its' effectiveness is > diminished. Unfortunately, far too many of us seek others to do the > fighting for us, rather than fighting for ourselves. Worse, some who oppose > situations such as POPTS, will still work in one. What does that say about > them, and " us " ? > > Ken Mailly, PT > Mailly & Inglett Consulting, LLC > Tel. 973 692-0033 > Fax 973 633-9557 > 68 Seneca Trail > Wayne, NJ, 07470 > www.NJPTAid.biz > > Bridging the Gap! > > > Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > > > > > Group > > > > > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > > > practice > > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on > the > > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to > > nothing > > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > > > environment > > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > > > MD's > > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > > > their > > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > > > MD's > > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > > > playing > > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns > the > > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > > > This > > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This > > is > > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship > with > > > the > > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good > > or > > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / > > producer > > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private > practice > > > or > > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > > > offer > > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office > as > > > well > > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have > the > > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > > > have. > > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow > > MD's > > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, > and > > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they > or > > a > > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across > > the > > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not > > the > > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us > > PT's? > > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I > > think > > > we > > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to > work > > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the > > same > > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, > location, > > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of > > vestibular > > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > > > good > > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us > > for > > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue > > to > > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > > > order > > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > > > > > Witt, PT > > > > > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > > > > > Private Practice > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 , Please forgive my frankness, but this has to be said: The APTA would speak for a more licensed PT's if they joined. That is a point that we make over and over. If you have an opinion, come to meetings, call the APTA, change our minds. If you are not doing that then you have little right to complain about the course that the APTA sets. And to say that the APTA doesn't speak for non-members is misinformed. Call the APTA research department and ask them about all the surveys that have been taken by them, by components of the APTA and that they have compiled from other sources and ask them how many of them involve non-members. They have plenty of " evidence " to support the issues and vision that they have chosen to pursue, including plenty of survey evidence of strong support against POPTS Also check the volumes of minutes of the House of Delegates over the years to see how passionate, intense and in depth the discussions are on these issues. There is plenty of dissention but at the end of the session there is professional agreement based on the input of hundreds of state delegates who themselves have listened to the opinions of both members and non-members of their state. As far as the APTA denying membership to those that work in POPTS. You know as well as I that if they wanted to make that a criteria for membership, they could. In fact, it might be a good thing to propose to the next House of Delegates. But I bet it would be defeated easily because it would not be the " right " thing to do. I agree that it wouldn't be the right thing to do. The right thing to do is to continue to try to change the hearts and minds of those who don't believe that the APTA really does represent all therapists, and to get you to trust that at the end of the day thousands of committed APTA members and staff are working as hard as they can to make our profession, your profession, the best it can be. Tom Howell, P.T., M.P.T. Howell Physical Therapy Eagle, ID ptclinic@... Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > > > > > Group > > > > > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > > > practice > > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on > the > > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to > > nothing > > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > > > environment > > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > > > MD's > > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > > > their > > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > > > MD's > > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > > > playing > > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns > the > > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > > > This > > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This > > is > > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship > with > > > the > > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good > > or > > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / > > producer > > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private > practice > > > or > > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > > > offer > > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office > as > > > well > > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have > the > > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > > > have. > > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow > > MD's > > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, > and > > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they > or > > a > > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across > > the > > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not > > the > > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us > > PT's? > > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I > > think > > > we > > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to > work > > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the > > same > > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, > location, > > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of > > vestibular > > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > > > good > > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us > > for > > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue > > to > > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > > > order > > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > > > > > Witt, PT > > > > > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > > > > > Private Practice > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2005 Report Share Posted May 16, 2005 I've had my disagreements with Tom, but not on this one. You have the right to be, or to not be a member of the APTA. But if you're not a member, you forfeit your right to complain. I further believe that you absolutely owe it to your profession to be a member; without the APTA, PT would have ceased to exist probably a generation ago. What right does anyone have to share in the spoils of the associations many victories when not a member? The APTA does speak for all PT's, whether they like it or not. I disagree with many of the positions taken by the APTA, including POPTS - but I engage fiercely in the debate, say my piece and attempt to influence positions. At the end of the day, the APTA speaks for all of us and it alone, through our consent in the House of Delegates, determines the direction for the profession. It's when good people do disagree, but don't participate that 'tyranny' in the form of the few deciding for the many, is able to flourish. Should the APTA exclude certain members because they disagree with stated positions? It's POPTS now, but a precedent it would definitely set. If you disagree you are eliminated from the debate? I've seen no evidence of that becoming reality, but if people with 'unpopular' positions continue to exclude themselves from the debate, it becomes more likely. I'm certainly in the minority at present, but this debate will resolve and probably for the good of all involved. I am proud to be a member of the APTA. Brett Windsor, PT, OCS, COMT, FAAOMPT Director of Ancillary Services The Vancouver Clinic (office) Physician Ownership New Perspective > > > > > > > > Group > > > > > > > > I have enjoyed reading all the posts regarding the physician owned > > > practice > > > > scenario. If we judge the " ethics " of this business model solely on > the > > > > individual PT's or MD's ethics and clinical skills it will lead to > > nothing > > > > more than unending disagreement among PT's, depending upon which > > > environment > > > > you work. Why? Because there is no shortage of fine PT's working for > > > MD's > > > > and no shortage of fine MD's involved with incident to PT services for > > > their > > > > profit. Further, I am sure there also is no shortage of profit hungry > > > MD's > > > > and minimally competent PT's working in a physician owned practice. > > > > > > > > To me, the main point of it all is quite simple. There is an uneven > > > playing > > > > field when the MD holds both the entry ticket to the clinic AND owns > the > > > > clinic as well. Why is this not grossly obvious to all of us as PT's? > > > This > > > > is not about individuals and their dedication to their patients. This > > is > > > > not about individuals and their valued close clinical relationship > with > > > the > > > > in office MD. This is not about individuals and whether they are good > > or > > > > bad clinicians, ethical practitioners or not. > > > > > > > > This is about macro economics and the lack of inherent consumer / > > producer > > > > equity. Basically, there exist two groups of producers of PT service. > > > > > > > > 1) PT's in a Physician owned practice, and 2) PT's in a private > practice > > > or > > > > independent hospital or other independent entities. These two groups > > > offer > > > > the exact same service (quality, ethical clinicians in the MD office > as > > > well > > > > as in the private entities office), but independent PT's do not have > the > > > > same inherent access to the consumers of that service as the MD groups > > > have. > > > > It is not about who is better; it's about having equal access. > > > > > > > > How is this inequity fixed? To me, that is simple too. Do not allow > > MD's > > > > to refer patients to a facility in which they hold financial interest. > > > > Wasn't that the original intent of Stark with reference to PT, MRI, > and > > > > labs. Physicians now cannot refer a patient to a PT office that they > or > > a > > > > family member have a financial interest. Why then is it ok for the > > > > physician to refer a patient to a PT office that they have a financial > > > > interest as long as it is located under the same roof, and not across > > the > > > > street? What is different in those two scenarios to make one, but not > > the > > > > other totally unethical? Is this not blatantly absurd to all of us > > PT's? > > > > If we see ourselves as professionals with our field of expertise, I > > think > > > we > > > > should all be a little outraged with this inequity. If you want to > work > > > > closely with an MD, develop a relationship with an MD who shares the > > same > > > > interest . . . open an office right next door . . . location, > location, > > > > location . . . if you have a practice specialty in the area of > > vestibular > > > > dysfunction, open an office near ENT's and neurologists. That is just > > > good > > > > business sense. I certainly do not believe that the PT's that work in > > > > physician owned practices are inherently bad . . . shame of any of us > > for > > > > thinking that way. But until the laws change . . . PT's must continue > > to > > > > develop relationships with MD's (even those that have their own PT) in > > > order > > > > to make a living doing the great things for their patients. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your time :-) > > > > > > > > Witt, PT > > > > > > > > Delray Beach, FL > > > > > > > > Private Practice > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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