Guest guest Posted December 24, 2004 Report Share Posted December 24, 2004 Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 Doug, You are doing Physical Therapy a great dis-service. You are in many states promoting fee splitting which is illegal. Furthermore where you are narrowly skirting the law, you are setting up the therapists that you advise to be investigated and possibly be thrown in jail. You see simply because no one has gone to jail yet, this does not mean that they won't in the near future. I know for one if I find you doing this in my territory, I have friends in state legislature as well as the AG's office that would like to know how this is not fee splitting. Furthermore the ethics of what you propose is problematic. I believe what you propose falls outside the ethical guidelines of the APTA, and should therefore be subject to scrutiny from the APTA and HHS. There are many things that are legal and unethical. You see the excuse of being a " businessman " does not absolve you or the people that you advise from acting in an unethical manner. We at PT plus are about promoting autonomous independent Physical Therapists who are peers with the medical community, not sub-serviant to the medical community. We are in it for the long haul, not the short term fix. We need to survive through all the things that people like you are doing to harm the development of our profession. I can see the day when we are equal with the MD's ( we are actually viewed that way by many physicians in our area). You are in a good position to con people with no vision that you have a good model. What you have is nothing good. You only have a way to make money today. We'll see who survives in the long run. By the way - Merry Christmas, you might want to look at Jesus views on money vs. integrity. Chad Novasic P.T. President P.T. Plus 5605 Washington Ave Racine, WI 53406 Phone: e-mail: Chadnov@... Web: PTPLUS.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 Doug, You are doing Physical Therapy a great dis-service. You are in many states promoting fee splitting which is illegal. Furthermore where you are narrowly skirting the law, you are setting up the therapists that you advise to be investigated and possibly be thrown in jail. You see simply because no one has gone to jail yet, this does not mean that they won't in the near future. I know for one if I find you doing this in my territory, I have friends in state legislature as well as the AG's office that would like to know how this is not fee splitting. Furthermore the ethics of what you propose is problematic. I believe what you propose falls outside the ethical guidelines of the APTA, and should therefore be subject to scrutiny from the APTA and HHS. There are many things that are legal and unethical. You see the excuse of being a " businessman " does not absolve you or the people that you advise from acting in an unethical manner. We at PT plus are about promoting autonomous independent Physical Therapists who are peers with the medical community, not sub-serviant to the medical community. We are in it for the long haul, not the short term fix. We need to survive through all the things that people like you are doing to harm the development of our profession. I can see the day when we are equal with the MD's ( we are actually viewed that way by many physicians in our area). You are in a good position to con people with no vision that you have a good model. What you have is nothing good. You only have a way to make money today. We'll see who survives in the long run. By the way - Merry Christmas, you might want to look at Jesus views on money vs. integrity. Chad Novasic P.T. President P.T. Plus 5605 Washington Ave Racine, WI 53406 Phone: e-mail: Chadnov@... Web: PTPLUS.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2004 Report Share Posted December 25, 2004 Doug, You are doing Physical Therapy a great dis-service. You are in many states promoting fee splitting which is illegal. Furthermore where you are narrowly skirting the law, you are setting up the therapists that you advise to be investigated and possibly be thrown in jail. You see simply because no one has gone to jail yet, this does not mean that they won't in the near future. I know for one if I find you doing this in my territory, I have friends in state legislature as well as the AG's office that would like to know how this is not fee splitting. Furthermore the ethics of what you propose is problematic. I believe what you propose falls outside the ethical guidelines of the APTA, and should therefore be subject to scrutiny from the APTA and HHS. There are many things that are legal and unethical. You see the excuse of being a " businessman " does not absolve you or the people that you advise from acting in an unethical manner. We at PT plus are about promoting autonomous independent Physical Therapists who are peers with the medical community, not sub-serviant to the medical community. We are in it for the long haul, not the short term fix. We need to survive through all the things that people like you are doing to harm the development of our profession. I can see the day when we are equal with the MD's ( we are actually viewed that way by many physicians in our area). You are in a good position to con people with no vision that you have a good model. What you have is nothing good. You only have a way to make money today. We'll see who survives in the long run. By the way - Merry Christmas, you might want to look at Jesus views on money vs. integrity. Chad Novasic P.T. President P.T. Plus 5605 Washington Ave Racine, WI 53406 Phone: e-mail: Chadnov@... Web: PTPLUS.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Get hold of McMenamin at McMenamin Physical Therapy in Chicago. He is the MAN with this issue on a national level. where are we going? > > > Dear group, > For all private practice owners who don't have ample patients, I would like to pose the following question. > Is physican owned therapy the trend of the year and what will happen to us as private practitioners that derive the majority of our business from outside physician referrals? It seems more orthopedists, neurosurgeons, and now family practice/internal medicine docs are offering therapy in-house. Is there a trend here? Is private practice PT/OT dying? Are there any efforts, as a profession, to block these transactions from happening? I see this as THE number one issue in private practice. I understand there are ways to partner with docs but up to this point, we have been unsuccessful at attracting docs with our model. It seems the docs find it easier to just hire a therapist and reap the financial rewards. Any comments.... > > > Has anyone taken the stand of trying to go " full speed ahead " and market directly to the public and (for those that offer spine care) challenge the chiropractor field? It seems that if we are unable to get our message out to physicians that there is a difference in physical therapy--we are not just the same bag of chips--then we should educate the public on how we, at the very least, are as effective as chiro. Has anyone put together an objectifiable long-term marketing system that addresses the public specifically? If so, I would love to talk with you in strict confidentiality. > > Regards, > Mike Moreau > morley@... > President > P.T.S. > > ________________________________________ > PeoplePC Online > A better way to Internet > http://www.peoplepc.com > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Get hold of McMenamin at McMenamin Physical Therapy in Chicago. He is the MAN with this issue on a national level. where are we going? > > > Dear group, > For all private practice owners who don't have ample patients, I would like to pose the following question. > Is physican owned therapy the trend of the year and what will happen to us as private practitioners that derive the majority of our business from outside physician referrals? It seems more orthopedists, neurosurgeons, and now family practice/internal medicine docs are offering therapy in-house. Is there a trend here? Is private practice PT/OT dying? Are there any efforts, as a profession, to block these transactions from happening? I see this as THE number one issue in private practice. I understand there are ways to partner with docs but up to this point, we have been unsuccessful at attracting docs with our model. It seems the docs find it easier to just hire a therapist and reap the financial rewards. Any comments.... > > > Has anyone taken the stand of trying to go " full speed ahead " and market directly to the public and (for those that offer spine care) challenge the chiropractor field? It seems that if we are unable to get our message out to physicians that there is a difference in physical therapy--we are not just the same bag of chips--then we should educate the public on how we, at the very least, are as effective as chiro. Has anyone put together an objectifiable long-term marketing system that addresses the public specifically? If so, I would love to talk with you in strict confidentiality. > > Regards, > Mike Moreau > morley@... > President > P.T.S. > > ________________________________________ > PeoplePC Online > A better way to Internet > http://www.peoplepc.com > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Get hold of McMenamin at McMenamin Physical Therapy in Chicago. He is the MAN with this issue on a national level. where are we going? > > > Dear group, > For all private practice owners who don't have ample patients, I would like to pose the following question. > Is physican owned therapy the trend of the year and what will happen to us as private practitioners that derive the majority of our business from outside physician referrals? It seems more orthopedists, neurosurgeons, and now family practice/internal medicine docs are offering therapy in-house. Is there a trend here? Is private practice PT/OT dying? Are there any efforts, as a profession, to block these transactions from happening? I see this as THE number one issue in private practice. I understand there are ways to partner with docs but up to this point, we have been unsuccessful at attracting docs with our model. It seems the docs find it easier to just hire a therapist and reap the financial rewards. Any comments.... > > > Has anyone taken the stand of trying to go " full speed ahead " and market directly to the public and (for those that offer spine care) challenge the chiropractor field? It seems that if we are unable to get our message out to physicians that there is a difference in physical therapy--we are not just the same bag of chips--then we should educate the public on how we, at the very least, are as effective as chiro. Has anyone put together an objectifiable long-term marketing system that addresses the public specifically? If so, I would love to talk with you in strict confidentiality. > > Regards, > Mike Moreau > morley@... > President > P.T.S. > > ________________________________________ > PeoplePC Online > A better way to Internet > http://www.peoplepc.com > > > > > > Looking to start your own Practice? > Visit www.InHomeRehab.com. > Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange > PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we deserve. I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that someday it will happen. Respectfully, Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle Suite D Topeka, KS 66618 (W) (F) Ric@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we deserve. I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that someday it will happen. Respectfully, Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle Suite D Topeka, KS 66618 (W) (F) Ric@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we deserve. I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that someday it will happen. Respectfully, Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle Suite D Topeka, KS 66618 (W) (F) Ric@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Sure sounds like referral for profit to me. Unethical and illegal in my world Ron Barbato P.T. Corporate Director , Rehabilitation Ephraim McDowell Health Voice (859 )239-1515 Fax (859 )936-7249 rbarbato@... " PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL: This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient, then please do not read it and be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. If you received this transmission in error, please immediately advise me, by reply e-mail, and delete this message and any attachments without retaining a copy in any form. Thank you. " Re: where are we going? I like these conversations and find them very useful and greatly respect these opinions. I have had great success partnering via independent contracts with physicians on my own behalf and that of my members. We have completed over 80 such transactions. In most every case a therapist was approached by a physician wanting to employ them. After the physician recovered from the " ABSOLUTELY NOT " response, they embraced the idea that they could have these great services provided within the therapists existing clinics thus freeing up space and avoiding the set up costs etc. Your clinic remains your clinic; you've just added a valuable contract no different than Blue Cross, Aetna, etc. Our studies indicated that in house therapy for docs produces just above or below a 10% return, with the better ones being run without therapists. The greatest blessing of this year is the APTA/CMS agreement which will eliminate these farce practices. ly I think if all therapists refuse to ever be employees (I would never allow that to happen), then contracts and a great deal of respect can be gained. Our standard to begin talks is 70% for the therapist/clinic and a risk free 30% for the physician. Instead of the physician having the hassles and hoping for a 10% return, he/she has a guaranteed return of 30% and your clinic remains yours. I know what you're thinking: 1) this isn't legal. It is. I'm not a therapist but a business guy with lots of experience and the best lawyers money can by. In fact, ALL of our major contracts put the physician's attorneys with ours and each one has agreed; 2) I can't make it at 70%! Wrong! If you are operating at below 90% of your capacity these contracts fill the gap quite nicely. Our first small physician contract produced cash to us of $29,000 during our first quarter ramp up with added expenses of $300.18. Your fixed expenses are already paid for so these revenues go to the bottom line. The profit margin on adding additional staff can make a lot of sense once that threshold is met. They have a problem and you are the solution. It's that or they do it the wrong way without you. We currently have eight contracts in place using multiple facilities and multiple physicians per facility producing around 60-70 new patients per week that we weren't seeing previously. This activity leads to other new opportunities. For example, a large physician group is forming a rehab hospital and wants to contract home health and outpatient to us. It won't open until August but we're seeing their patients as standard referrals now. For more information please check out www.mdptpartners.com<http://www.mdptpartners.com/>. It's an informational website with nothing to buy. In the words of one member/friend, " last year I thought you were Satan and now this year you've literally saved my practice of 23 years. You truly do everything in my power to assist the therapist " . Take care. Doug Doug Sparks Advanced Physical Therapy Concepts / APTC www.aptc.biz<http://www.aptc.biz/> doug@... Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 The oft heard pronouncement that one thing or another is legal because " my lawyer(s) said it was " needs some serious scrutiny. Lawyers are not, as many would have us believe, the ultimate arbiters of legality. If it were so you would never see two lawyers in a courtroom arguing opposite sides of a case. When such questions arise, usually one's ethics lobe takes over and gives clear enough direction. If not, the self-preservation instinct should warn against skirting the edges. Driving on the the yellow line invites disaster (often involving someone doing the same thing in the opposite direction!). Dave Milano, Director of Rehab Services Laurel Health System 32-36 Central Ave. Wellsboro, PA 16901 dmilano@... Re: where are we going? Hi Ken and happy holidays. As 100% of the collections belong to the physician, the 70% they pay to the therapist/therapy company is the contracted expense of service. Discount for volume and exclusivity (where relevant) is another common business description. It's based on, and not owed until collection to account for denials or nonpayment/adjustments for other reasons beyond their immediate control. The physicians have a choice to provide the space, staff, equipment, etc., or contract to have those services provided. I've seen other percentages based on depth of services offered such as billing and inclusion of other physicians into a new " group " . Continuity of care and communication makes the process require teamwork which results in better service. Once again, the therapist can get in the path of progress, or not, as the physicians will continue to exclude them if options aren't presented. People continue to rightfully complain about these arrangements that they see going on around them, and wondering how it can happen and what they can do. Though I have heard some very good suggestions that I too will implement, this is the " mystery " that's causing the frustration. The real downside of not participating is being shut out from any future referrals. I've had several therapists tell me that 1-3 of their main referring physicians are bringing therapy inside and that it will likely put them out of business. That scares them and me. Thanks for your input and have a great evening. Doug Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/<http://www.inhomerehab.com<h ttp://www.inhomerehab.com/>>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 The oft heard pronouncement that one thing or another is legal because " my lawyer(s) said it was " needs some serious scrutiny. Lawyers are not, as many would have us believe, the ultimate arbiters of legality. If it were so you would never see two lawyers in a courtroom arguing opposite sides of a case. When such questions arise, usually one's ethics lobe takes over and gives clear enough direction. If not, the self-preservation instinct should warn against skirting the edges. Driving on the the yellow line invites disaster (often involving someone doing the same thing in the opposite direction!). Dave Milano, Director of Rehab Services Laurel Health System 32-36 Central Ave. Wellsboro, PA 16901 dmilano@... Re: where are we going? Hi Ken and happy holidays. As 100% of the collections belong to the physician, the 70% they pay to the therapist/therapy company is the contracted expense of service. Discount for volume and exclusivity (where relevant) is another common business description. It's based on, and not owed until collection to account for denials or nonpayment/adjustments for other reasons beyond their immediate control. The physicians have a choice to provide the space, staff, equipment, etc., or contract to have those services provided. I've seen other percentages based on depth of services offered such as billing and inclusion of other physicians into a new " group " . Continuity of care and communication makes the process require teamwork which results in better service. Once again, the therapist can get in the path of progress, or not, as the physicians will continue to exclude them if options aren't presented. People continue to rightfully complain about these arrangements that they see going on around them, and wondering how it can happen and what they can do. Though I have heard some very good suggestions that I too will implement, this is the " mystery " that's causing the frustration. The real downside of not participating is being shut out from any future referrals. I've had several therapists tell me that 1-3 of their main referring physicians are bringing therapy inside and that it will likely put them out of business. That scares them and me. Thanks for your input and have a great evening. Doug Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/<http://www.inhomerehab.com<h ttp://www.inhomerehab.com/>>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Doug, if I understand what you are saying (perhaps I do not), when a physician refers to you he/she will get 30% of any fees collected from the payer source. If this same physician referred to one of your competitors, he/she could not expect to receive any of the collected fees, therefore it is in the physicians best interest to refer to you. I am not a lawyer, but it is *EXTREMELY* difficult for me to understand how this is not referral for profit or tantamount to a " kick-back " scheme. Perhaps you would care to elaborate on how this setup complies with Stark II. P.S. Last summer I attended a workshop that include a representative from a company that contracts with CMS to investigate fraud and abuse. She said she often checks newsgroup like this looking for leads and is often times amazed at what people will say in an open forum. Just food for thought. A. Lee, PT, MSPT Director of Inpatient Therapies Madonna Rehabilitation Hospital Lincoln, NE Re: where are we going? I like these conversations and find them very useful and greatly respect these opinions. I have had great success partnering via independent contracts with physicians on my own behalf and that of my members. We have completed over 80 such transactions. In most every case a therapist was approached by a physician wanting to employ them. After the physician recovered from the " ABSOLUTELY NOT " response, they embraced the idea that they could have these great services provided within the therapists existing clinics thus freeing up space and avoiding the set up costs etc. Your clinic remains your clinic; you've just added a valuable contract no different than Blue Cross, Aetna, etc. Our studies indicated that in house therapy for docs produces just above or below a 10% return, with the better ones being run without therapists. The greatest blessing of this year is the APTA/CMS agreement which will eliminate these farce practices. ly I think if all therapists refuse to ever be employees (I would never allow that to happen), then contracts and a great deal of respect can be gained. Our standard to begin talks is 70% for the therapist/clinic and a risk free 30% for the physician. Instead of the physician having the hassles and hoping for a 10% return, he/she has a guaranteed return of 30% and your clinic remains yours. I know what you're thinking: 1) this isn't legal. It is. I'm not a therapist but a business guy with lots of experience and the best lawyers money can by. In fact, ALL of our major contracts put the physician's attorneys with ours and each one has agreed; 2) I can't make it at 70%! Wrong! If you are operating at below 90% of your capacity these contracts fill the gap quite nicely. Our first small physician contract produced cash to us of $29,000 during our first quarter ramp up with added expenses of $300.18. Your fixed expenses are already paid for so these revenues go to the bottom line. The profit margin on adding additional staff can make a lot of sense once that threshold is met. They have a problem and you are the solution. It's that or they do it the wrong way without you. We currently have eight contracts in place using multiple facilities and multiple physicians per facility producing around 60-70 new patients per week that we weren't seeing previously. This activity leads to other new opportunities. For example, a large physician group is forming a rehab hospital and wants to contract home health and outpatient to us. It won't open until August but we're seeing their patients as standard referrals now. For more information please check out www.mdptpartners.com<http://www.mdptpartners.com/>. It's an informational website with nothing to buy. In the words of one member/friend, " last year I thought you were Satan and now this year you've literally saved my practice of 23 years. You truly do everything in my power to assist the therapist " . Take care. Doug Doug Sparks Advanced Physical Therapy Concepts / APTC www.aptc.biz<http://www.aptc.biz/> doug@... Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Doug, if I understand what you are saying (perhaps I do not), when a physician refers to you he/she will get 30% of any fees collected from the payer source. If this same physician referred to one of your competitors, he/she could not expect to receive any of the collected fees, therefore it is in the physicians best interest to refer to you. I am not a lawyer, but it is *EXTREMELY* difficult for me to understand how this is not referral for profit or tantamount to a " kick-back " scheme. Perhaps you would care to elaborate on how this setup complies with Stark II. P.S. Last summer I attended a workshop that include a representative from a company that contracts with CMS to investigate fraud and abuse. She said she often checks newsgroup like this looking for leads and is often times amazed at what people will say in an open forum. Just food for thought. A. Lee, PT, MSPT Director of Inpatient Therapies Madonna Rehabilitation Hospital Lincoln, NE Re: where are we going? I like these conversations and find them very useful and greatly respect these opinions. I have had great success partnering via independent contracts with physicians on my own behalf and that of my members. We have completed over 80 such transactions. In most every case a therapist was approached by a physician wanting to employ them. After the physician recovered from the " ABSOLUTELY NOT " response, they embraced the idea that they could have these great services provided within the therapists existing clinics thus freeing up space and avoiding the set up costs etc. Your clinic remains your clinic; you've just added a valuable contract no different than Blue Cross, Aetna, etc. Our studies indicated that in house therapy for docs produces just above or below a 10% return, with the better ones being run without therapists. The greatest blessing of this year is the APTA/CMS agreement which will eliminate these farce practices. ly I think if all therapists refuse to ever be employees (I would never allow that to happen), then contracts and a great deal of respect can be gained. Our standard to begin talks is 70% for the therapist/clinic and a risk free 30% for the physician. Instead of the physician having the hassles and hoping for a 10% return, he/she has a guaranteed return of 30% and your clinic remains yours. I know what you're thinking: 1) this isn't legal. It is. I'm not a therapist but a business guy with lots of experience and the best lawyers money can by. In fact, ALL of our major contracts put the physician's attorneys with ours and each one has agreed; 2) I can't make it at 70%! Wrong! If you are operating at below 90% of your capacity these contracts fill the gap quite nicely. Our first small physician contract produced cash to us of $29,000 during our first quarter ramp up with added expenses of $300.18. Your fixed expenses are already paid for so these revenues go to the bottom line. The profit margin on adding additional staff can make a lot of sense once that threshold is met. They have a problem and you are the solution. It's that or they do it the wrong way without you. We currently have eight contracts in place using multiple facilities and multiple physicians per facility producing around 60-70 new patients per week that we weren't seeing previously. This activity leads to other new opportunities. For example, a large physician group is forming a rehab hospital and wants to contract home health and outpatient to us. It won't open until August but we're seeing their patients as standard referrals now. For more information please check out www.mdptpartners.com<http://www.mdptpartners.com/>. It's an informational website with nothing to buy. In the words of one member/friend, " last year I thought you were Satan and now this year you've literally saved my practice of 23 years. You truly do everything in my power to assist the therapist " . Take care. Doug Doug Sparks Advanced Physical Therapy Concepts / APTC www.aptc.biz<http://www.aptc.biz/> doug@... Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 Doug, if I understand what you are saying (perhaps I do not), when a physician refers to you he/she will get 30% of any fees collected from the payer source. If this same physician referred to one of your competitors, he/she could not expect to receive any of the collected fees, therefore it is in the physicians best interest to refer to you. I am not a lawyer, but it is *EXTREMELY* difficult for me to understand how this is not referral for profit or tantamount to a " kick-back " scheme. Perhaps you would care to elaborate on how this setup complies with Stark II. P.S. Last summer I attended a workshop that include a representative from a company that contracts with CMS to investigate fraud and abuse. She said she often checks newsgroup like this looking for leads and is often times amazed at what people will say in an open forum. Just food for thought. A. Lee, PT, MSPT Director of Inpatient Therapies Madonna Rehabilitation Hospital Lincoln, NE Re: where are we going? I like these conversations and find them very useful and greatly respect these opinions. I have had great success partnering via independent contracts with physicians on my own behalf and that of my members. We have completed over 80 such transactions. In most every case a therapist was approached by a physician wanting to employ them. After the physician recovered from the " ABSOLUTELY NOT " response, they embraced the idea that they could have these great services provided within the therapists existing clinics thus freeing up space and avoiding the set up costs etc. Your clinic remains your clinic; you've just added a valuable contract no different than Blue Cross, Aetna, etc. Our studies indicated that in house therapy for docs produces just above or below a 10% return, with the better ones being run without therapists. The greatest blessing of this year is the APTA/CMS agreement which will eliminate these farce practices. ly I think if all therapists refuse to ever be employees (I would never allow that to happen), then contracts and a great deal of respect can be gained. Our standard to begin talks is 70% for the therapist/clinic and a risk free 30% for the physician. Instead of the physician having the hassles and hoping for a 10% return, he/she has a guaranteed return of 30% and your clinic remains yours. I know what you're thinking: 1) this isn't legal. It is. I'm not a therapist but a business guy with lots of experience and the best lawyers money can by. In fact, ALL of our major contracts put the physician's attorneys with ours and each one has agreed; 2) I can't make it at 70%! Wrong! If you are operating at below 90% of your capacity these contracts fill the gap quite nicely. Our first small physician contract produced cash to us of $29,000 during our first quarter ramp up with added expenses of $300.18. Your fixed expenses are already paid for so these revenues go to the bottom line. The profit margin on adding additional staff can make a lot of sense once that threshold is met. They have a problem and you are the solution. It's that or they do it the wrong way without you. We currently have eight contracts in place using multiple facilities and multiple physicians per facility producing around 60-70 new patients per week that we weren't seeing previously. This activity leads to other new opportunities. For example, a large physician group is forming a rehab hospital and wants to contract home health and outpatient to us. It won't open until August but we're seeing their patients as standard referrals now. For more information please check out www.mdptpartners.com<http://www.mdptpartners.com/>. It's an informational website with nothing to buy. In the words of one member/friend, " last year I thought you were Satan and now this year you've literally saved my practice of 23 years. You truly do everything in my power to assist the therapist " . Take care. Doug Doug Sparks Advanced Physical Therapy Concepts / APTC www.aptc.biz<http://www.aptc.biz/> doug@... Re: where are we going? Our main focus in my private practice of 7 PT's and 3 OT's 2 of which are CHT(the only CHT's in our area, is to offer Injury Management to our area Employers. We provide all the services to the employer and use the doctors we prefer(even the ones with their own therapists) and the agreement with some of those same doctors who have their own therapists, is that if we bring them the employer for their services we will be the rehab provider, not them. It is working quite well. Now, this concept takes much time in coordinating everything and staying on top of all the details, but this is the only way we can combat the therapists working for physicians. The other thing we are finding is that the physicians who have their own therapists ,after about 2 years find that they are not making as much as they thought and the overhead, staffing, turnover, billing/collecting/denial issues are much more than they imagined. They are now approaching us to discuss either stopping the therapy or asking if we will consider managing it. We also find that the employers, who pay the bills, do not really like the idea of the physician having their own therapist because the length of time in therapy increases and overutilizing therapy is a concern. We decided many years ago that our community employers are the customers we want to market to. I also will be ther first to say even after 28 years in the Rehab business, I have never worked harder to stay ahead of the game and this not a fun time and I only hope that the times will improve. Bubba Klostermann OT, CVE, CEAS Occupational Therapist Certified Vocational Evaluator Certified Ergonomic Assessment Specialist Chief Executive Officer WORK & REHAB 4546 South 14th Abilene, Texas 79605 -phone -fax email:bubklo@... Looking to start your own Practice? Visit www.InHomeRehab.com<http://www.inhomerehab.com/>. Bring PTManager to your organization or State Association with a professional workshop or course - call us at 313 884-8920 to arrange PTManager encourages participation in your professional association. Join and participate now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 What are the analogies to this situation? Wasn't there a time when pharmacies were all owned by pharmacists? And now they are all supermarket or drug store owned? I wonder if the pharmacists were up in arms too or what? Will there be a day where as a PT, you will know when you are in school that upon graduation, the likelihood is 99% you will be working for a POPTS or big chain clinic? Probably a poor comparison, but all I had time to think up. I am a non-PT that owns a couple of clinics and I have to say I feel the resentment from the local PT's in the community for being an outsider. It's an emotional issue and that is one thing that will always make it divisive. I would hope that we could all follow the golden rule and also try to have dialogue that seeks to understand the other side's points of view and do what's in the best interest of the patients as the ultimate deciding factor in things. My clinic runs great and I think that the PTs are all pretty happy about the patient care. Sac Spine & PT Re: where are we going? In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we deserve. I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that someday it will happen. Respectfully, Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle Suite D Topeka, KS 66618 (W) (F) Ric@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 What are the analogies to this situation? Wasn't there a time when pharmacies were all owned by pharmacists? And now they are all supermarket or drug store owned? I wonder if the pharmacists were up in arms too or what? Will there be a day where as a PT, you will know when you are in school that upon graduation, the likelihood is 99% you will be working for a POPTS or big chain clinic? Probably a poor comparison, but all I had time to think up. I am a non-PT that owns a couple of clinics and I have to say I feel the resentment from the local PT's in the community for being an outsider. It's an emotional issue and that is one thing that will always make it divisive. I would hope that we could all follow the golden rule and also try to have dialogue that seeks to understand the other side's points of view and do what's in the best interest of the patients as the ultimate deciding factor in things. My clinic runs great and I think that the PTs are all pretty happy about the patient care. Sac Spine & PT Re: where are we going? In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we deserve. I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that someday it will happen. Respectfully, Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle Suite D Topeka, KS 66618 (W) (F) Ric@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2004 Report Share Posted December 27, 2004 What are the analogies to this situation? Wasn't there a time when pharmacies were all owned by pharmacists? And now they are all supermarket or drug store owned? I wonder if the pharmacists were up in arms too or what? Will there be a day where as a PT, you will know when you are in school that upon graduation, the likelihood is 99% you will be working for a POPTS or big chain clinic? Probably a poor comparison, but all I had time to think up. I am a non-PT that owns a couple of clinics and I have to say I feel the resentment from the local PT's in the community for being an outsider. It's an emotional issue and that is one thing that will always make it divisive. I would hope that we could all follow the golden rule and also try to have dialogue that seeks to understand the other side's points of view and do what's in the best interest of the patients as the ultimate deciding factor in things. My clinic runs great and I think that the PTs are all pretty happy about the patient care. Sac Spine & PT Re: where are we going? In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we deserve. I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that someday it will happen. Respectfully, Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle Suite D Topeka, KS 66618 (W) (F) Ric@... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 The problem with what you are doing is not that the patient care is good oro whether or not the PTs are happy with it...from the prospective of making PT an autonomous, direct access profession, you are hurting that cause. PTs in the days of yor made a grave mistake by not protecting their terms and practices and people like you are now able to take advantage of that. Connolly, PT Co-Owner PT Plus of Oak Creek Re: where are we going? > > > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we > deserve. > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > someday it will happen. > > Respectfully, > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > Suite D > Topeka, KS 66618 > (W) > (F) > Ric@... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 The problem with what you are doing is not that the patient care is good oro whether or not the PTs are happy with it...from the prospective of making PT an autonomous, direct access profession, you are hurting that cause. PTs in the days of yor made a grave mistake by not protecting their terms and practices and people like you are now able to take advantage of that. Connolly, PT Co-Owner PT Plus of Oak Creek Re: where are we going? > > > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we > deserve. > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > someday it will happen. > > Respectfully, > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > Suite D > Topeka, KS 66618 > (W) > (F) > Ric@... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 I agree. We must all stick together. Get to your representatives and inform them. Those kinds of situations are exactly why we get our collective butts kicked by huge chains, hospital systems and POPTS. Connolly, PT Co-Owner PT Plus of Oak Creek Re: where are we going? > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we > deserve. > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > someday it will happen. > > Respectfully, > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > Suite D > Topeka, KS 66618 > (W) > (F) > Ric@... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 I agree. We must all stick together. Get to your representatives and inform them. Those kinds of situations are exactly why we get our collective butts kicked by huge chains, hospital systems and POPTS. Connolly, PT Co-Owner PT Plus of Oak Creek Re: where are we going? > > > In defense of Doug, he is speaking from a " Wall Street Perspective " which > is make money and make a lot of it. I guess my point is he does not have the > ownership of the profession as we do, therefore it is/may be hard for him to > understand our passion and desire to be seen as a professional and autonomous > practitioner and fight these battles instead of continuously giving in to > gain a piece of the pie ($$$). Doug you say " It's that or they do it the > wrong way without you " , I don't see it that way, I see it as they are doing our > profession and the public an injustice and if we continue to stand for it, it > will go exactly the direction that you are heading things. I personally do > not like that direction and this is why I choose to give $$ to the APTA and > the PAC to continue to gain the professional autonomy and respect that we > deserve. > > I personally feel, as do many of the others on this list serve, that the > profession belongs to us as PT's and we have to continue to fight and move > forward or we will most certainly head in the direction that you are referring to > and as you do business. I harbor no ill feelings toward you or any other > layperson who decides to open rehab agencies as a non-PT owner, but I will > continue to fight to put ownership in the hands of PT's across the country. Might > be a pipe dream or an idealist point of view, but it is my dream that > someday it will happen. > > Respectfully, > > Ric Baird, MS, PT, ATC > Interactive Physical Therapy & Fitness > 4745 NW Hunters Ridge Circle > Suite D > Topeka, KS 66618 > (W) > (F) > Ric@... > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 If the outpatient cap comes back in Jan > 2006, where do you think your practice will be in 2006 without considering > the business side of physical therapy and rehab practice? > > RV, PT, MS > Florida RV: I guess I ought to send my congrats to you, and you are the first one to mention this possibility. I was hoping that I might have been able to mention this interesting consideration, one that might cost $$$ in terms of lobbying. = Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2004 Report Share Posted December 28, 2004 If the outpatient cap comes back in Jan > 2006, where do you think your practice will be in 2006 without considering > the business side of physical therapy and rehab practice? > > RV, PT, MS > Florida RV: I guess I ought to send my congrats to you, and you are the first one to mention this possibility. I was hoping that I might have been able to mention this interesting consideration, one that might cost $$$ in terms of lobbying. = Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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